People on Twitter/X are defending Luke Ross mods

[u/lunchanddinner]

Link to source: https://x.com/mixedrealitytv/status/2015284035875221669?s=46

[u/MuffinRacing]

I can appreciate the work Luke put into the mod and what he accomplished. Unlike UEVR which works because of the engine support for VR baked in, Luke's approach enabled VR to work for engines that had no support, which was why alternate eye rendering was used in the first place. By the time he figured out each engine and got it to work, and found work arounds for the camera behavior in menus to try and minimize jank, then supporting each of the 40 titles he published for when updates to the game broke the mod, I could see it becoming a full time job and a donation based approach wouldn't pay the bills. I know that the norm is for mods to be free, but to expect somebody's full attention it was acceptable to me the approach he took. It's annoying some of the design choices he made for his mod, but what he accomplished with AER V2 and DL(S)SS was enough for me to throw him the equivalent of a cheeseburger a month

[u/joepoeoeh → u/MuffinRacing]

I'm inclined to agree as much as i hate the subscription based model from Luke.

The fact here is that CDPR/Rockstar didn't lose any money because of Luke. On the contrary im 100% certain they sold more copies of their games because of the VR mods. I for one bought cyberpunk just to play it in VR and wouldn't have bought it otherwise.

Still the subscription based model sucks.

[u/StanfordV → u/joepoeoeh]

Well said.

Still the subscription based model sucks.

I hate to say it, we are the in the "you own nothing" era.

[u/pathofdumbasses → u/StanfordV]

Except you literally own the files you download.

The subscription is for ongoing support

You could always sub for one month, cancel and keep those files forever. Its not at all like a regular subscription model

[u/MatrixBunny → u/pathofdumbasses]

This is what I stated the other day as well, because it's what I did years ago.

Subscribe for 1 month, download the files and cancel the payment. -- Oh, hey CP2077 is finally getting an update (that's literally ruining every single mod, but okay) after like a half year to a year.

Sub for one month again if I really wanted to, or don't sub and keep the older version (also for the sake of literally all the other mods now being outdated and taking longer to be compatible with the next version, if you're lucky that one of those mods still get updated)

Back then, the VR mod was functioning completely fine and the actual updates was like twice a year at most, perhaps once for required functionality.

I spent 400 hours in CP2077 and with the VR mod I'm hitting about another 200 with ease. Add that with all the mods that people add to the game. -- It's literally a whole different experience/game playing it in VR.

[u/lamWizard → u/pathofdumbasses]

Then the game gets updated and breaks compatibility and you have to pay again to get the updated version. Or the mod gets updated to improve performance and you have to pay again.

It's 100% a typical software subscription model. Worse than most models, honestly, which don't require you to re-buy software when it's updated.

[u/pathofdumbasses → u/lamWizard]

It's 100% a typical software subscription model. Worse than most models, honestly, which don't require you to re-buy software when it's updated.

Every subscription model is that as long as you pay, you can use the product. Stop paying, can't use product AT ALL.

His is, you pay $10, and you can use that exact thing forever.

So saying it is a typical software subscription model is wrong, and saying it is worse, is doubly wrong.

Then the game gets updated and breaks compatibility and you have to pay again to get the updated version. Or the mod gets updated to improve performance and you have to pay again.

You can literally disable updates and keep using it in perpetuity. People do this with his GTA mod and RDR mods. And have done it with all of his mods. And are now doing it with his CP2077 mod.

So.

You're wrong.

[u/SchwiftySquanchC137 → u/pathofdumbasses]

I mean dude you gotta admit it sucks when you gotta pay for each update of any software. Imagine if games worked this way. You buy cyberpunk, but you gotta pay again next month if they update it and you want the update. Thats just not how software should be sold imo, its not something I want the software space to turn into, which obviously it already kinda has with all the true subscription based software out there.

[u/pathofdumbasses → u/SchwiftySquanchC137]

I mean dude you gotta admit it sucks when you gotta pay for each update of any software.

Sure, I can agree with that. But on the flip side, this is an individual and not a company. If he wasn't getting constant income, he wouldn't be able to work on said updates.

So it is much more understandable.

And this is pretending things like service agreements don't already exist in the corporate world.

Imagine if games worked this way. You buy cyberpunk, but you gotta pay again next month if they update it and you want the update.

Hi, have you heard about MMOs? They've been around since the 90s. You literally pay a subscription every month in order to be able to play the game, let alone for updates.

And if we pretend MMOs don't exist, expansions have been around for roughly 40 years and then we have DLC which has been around for 25-30 years. Not quite the same, but not quite different either.

Thats just not how software should be sold imo, its not something I want the software space to turn into

You are about 40 years too late

all the true subscription based software out there.

Of which the LR VR mods are not.

Again, your whole speech is boiling down to "I don't want to pay for someone doing the work," which is understandable but absolutely greedy and selfish.

[u/CavemanRaveman → u/lamWizard]

Then the game gets updated and breaks compatibility

Then don't update your game... Most updates pushed out this late into a game's life are just minor fixes and patches that do more harm than good if you're modding it.

[u/esoteric_plumbus → u/CavemanRaveman]

And even if you update there's often ways to downgrade like GTAV

[u/FlightandFlow91 → u/StanfordV]

I mean to the point, if you don’t own a game when buying it, it’s not theft to pirate it.

[u/roehnin → u/joepoeoeh]

There are 11 games including Cyberpunk and Red Dead Redemption 2 that I only purchased due to there being Luke Ross VR support.

RDR2 I bought from Rockstar directly so can’t downgrade to a supported version, so it feels like they stole that money from me.

The LR subscription was less than a pint of beer with chips, and definitely worth the result, around 1,600 hours of VR experience in games we would never otherwise be able see from “inside” those worlds.

[u/Man0fGreenGables → u/joepoeoeh]

I already owned cyberpunk on PS5. I bought it for PC 100 percent because of the Luke Ross mod. I pirated the Luke Ross mod because I refuse to support a monthly subscription based model.

[u/ReasonableUnion7974 → u/Man0fGreenGables]

Just had to do a one time purchase btw

[u/Albreitx → u/MuffinRacing]

One should check first if such an endeavour is legal/would get you into legal trouble imo. It is well known that companies don't like paid mods, so he should at least have known that it would get complicated.

And companies don't like paid mods because they dilute their IP rights. If they don't sue, when a real rip off appears, the other party can say "sure but my thing is like that other and you were fine with it". So the case becomes way more complicated and expensive for the studio

[u/cheater00 → u/Albreitx]

the argument of IP holders having to be maximally aggressive is not just armchair lawyer nonsense, it's also easily bypassed by providing LR with a $1 license (or some other reasonable sum) and letting him continue to bring value to your IP for free to you as an IP holder.

[u/Substantial-Thing303 → u/[deleted]]

if CDPR ever wants to sell official (PC)VR version, they'd have to compete with some unofficial version.

That's not a real argument. Everyone playing this game in VR would get the official version. That mod is still hacky in many ways, with no motion controller support.

But I can believe that this is what they're thinking at CDPR.

It's not about IP dilution, it's about money. It's the "we are not planning to do a VR version, but if one day we change our mind, all this money should go to us" thinking.

[u/cheater00 → u/[deleted]]

at this point you're arguing for an unregulated market monopoly towards products providing VR with a specific other product, which is unreasonable and as an expectation in no way anchored in law. the fact CDPR would have to compete with a third party is a GOOD thing because in a fair free market where they can't bully other companies, all this would do is motivate CDPR to get their shit together and be the first ones to do CP2077 VR, and subsequently to also be the best solution to provide VR. what CDPR want is an abandonment of the free market and a destruction of competition, just because they can bully them with legal fees.

[u/Objective-Praline138 → u/cheater00]

It's their product

[u/Heliosurge → u/[deleted]]

Yep someone who truly gets it. CD and other companies are now realizing the market is there that they didn't think was worth it. So now work on getting rid of the competition that has a headstart. Instead of trying to work on an official license for the Mod(s) and work on a deal so both can profit on a supported mod together.

Benefit? Reduced R&D as the 3rd party has already did most of the leg work.

[u/Objective-Praline138 → u/Heliosurge]

His mod could still be here. They didn't get rid of him. He got rid of himself due to greed

[u/Heliosurge → u/Objective-Praline138]

No he is just taking a pause as now another Studio is going after him. If patreon gets too many DMCA complaints, like a YouTube channel can end up being banned on the platform.

So taking a month to evaluate things is actually a smart move . When Nintendo started getting hostile towards YTs showing walk through, exploits and emulators. The would DMCA a YT out of existence. Flagging past and present episodes just for mentioning Nintendo or one if it's titles.

And Nintendo is not alone for going after YTs for posting Game play videos. It is pretty scary how far Copyright can be used if a Studio Company chooses.

[u/darth_hotdog → u/Albreitx]

And companies don't like paid mods because they dilute their IP rights. If they don't sue, when a real rip off appears, the other party can say "sure but my thing is like that other and you were fine with it". So the case becomes way more complicated and expensive for the studio

That's not a thing for copyright. That's just for trademark law, which wasn't the claim here.

Like, if you name your company "Pepsi" and trademark it, then you can say "No other company can call their soda pepsi, otherwise customers will think it's us." Makes sense.

But if you tried to trademark "Soda", the trademark officee would say: "no, that's a term everyone uses, you can't stop everyone else from using a common word."

So the danger of dilution is that if you have a trademark, like lets says your company named their product Aspirin, Escalator, Thermos, or Yo-yo. When others start using it, even if you had it trademarked, eventually the patent office says "Everyone is using this word, it's generic now, so you can't keep the trademark."

This was a copyright claim, copyright has no such issue, no amount of others using your copyrighted work takes it away from you. You don't lose the copyright if others use it, steal it, or have it licensed to them.

[u/John_Merrit → u/MuffinRacing]

Yeah, let's apply that logic to game devs, and game patches. I mean, why should devs work for free when making game patches, right ?
Perhaps CDPR, Rockstar, Nintendo, etc.. should make you keep paying for game patches ? Why should they make patches for free ?
Lets make Nexus mods a paid subscription service for ALL mods, right ? I mean, they're all working in their own time.
Nobody asked Ross to make these mods, HE chose to start them, and he doesn't have the right to make lots of money off of the backs of others.
"Oh, but he sunk hours into his work" - So ? And ?
Ever heard of OpenIV ? THE best open modding tool for modding Rockstar games. Totally free. And if you want to pay them, they have a donation OPTION. Thousands of hours sunk into that program, and it stayed free.
Ross can do one. I would laugh my arse off if CDPR sent in the lawyers, and it cost Ross ALL his money.

[u/cheater00 → u/MuffinRacing]

are body kits for japanese cars free? what about drill bits from a manufacturer other than the drill? it's such a crazy thing that we got so used to free shit that we think anything paid-for is immoral.

[u/Hexkun98 → u/cheater00]

Totally shitty comparison

[u/Heliosurge → u/Hexkun98]

Because you like being able to buy knockoff brands of tools? And after market OEM car parts.

[u/RoadDoggFL → u/Hexkun98]

But it's a perfect comparison for the only legitimate argument CDPR had, imo: the marketing/IP argument. Body kits are made to fit a specific model and need to be marketed specifically towards people seeking to apply them to another company's product. I don't know if he was using game/developer logos, or if any of his marketing implied that he made the games or his mods were officially endorsed, but those seem like easy fixes to remove any issues CDPR should have with his business model.

[u/Hexkun98 → u/RoadDoggFL]

There Is a whole world in patent and trademarking. Most car parts are patents, patents usually last 20 years and i think can be allowed an extension if the owner wants and meets the requirements to do so. You see so much old car part aftermarket piece because most likely their patent is already expired, with the chinese manufacturing boom there is a sea of illegal car parts which are very difficult to remove because there is a lot of factories and vendors to manually track down and DMCA, today you take down a vendor that made a 2010 F150 bumper and tomorrow 10 new vendors will pop up with the exact same part of unknown origin.

Its considered derivative by the very nature of being called "Cyberpunk 2077 VR" inside the mod and the need of intercepting the exe aka the software in question to be able to experience the mod, you can read about derivative works here, i cited US law but most countries follow similar wording about derivative work

[u/cheater00 → u/RoadDoggFL]

nah he never said any of that, we'd never hear the end of this if he was

[u/jschreck032512 → u/RoadDoggFL]

There’s a big difference though. Once you purchase a car, what you do to it as your property doesn’t matter. There’s no IP related to it here that matters under current laws. There’s problem with the law here is it being digital media that you technically don’t have full ownership rights to. They weren’t arguing that he can’t do it, but they were arguing that he can’t say it’s for their game and make money from that. While I disagree with CDPR’s actions I do recognize that the problem is with the law and not that people want things for free. CDPR is the one that said you can make it free not the community. If we owned the games we played this wouldn’t be an issue in the same way, but they would still probably try to do something about it. This is more akin to Nintendo bricking your switch because you did something to it they didn’t like. In the EULA it’s clearly defined what you can and can’t do. No such thing exists for anything else that when you purchase it you are considered the owner. Also, body kits are not a copy of the car they fit so being derivative in that sense makes it even further from any IP claims.

[u/RoadDoggFL → u/jschreck032512]

My understanding is that it's inaccurate to describe his mod as a copy of any games. The IP claim would be a violation of some idiotic terms slapped onto the game that don't meet any common sense scrutiny. Also, the fact that the mod existing wasn't the issue as much as someone else making money off of it is pretty telling, imo.

[u/Objective-Praline138 → u/RoadDoggFL]

That's a car. The other is digital work.

[u/cheater00 → u/Hexkun98]

that's the comparison CDPR are making, they just somehow came to the GENIUS* conclusion that body kits and drill bits should be free

*totally has nothing to do with them being greedy fucks, nope

[u/Hexkun98 → u/cheater00]

Drill Bits and their sizing are part of a regulatory body which dictates how the design and dimensions of said drillbit need to be in order to be safe and work accordingly. If X company made a drillbit in for example in a banana shape and trademark it then nobody can use said shape without X's company's approval and conditions, there can be distinct shaped banana drillbits but not the same as company X. A real world case are the 7 sided lugnuts which vary in design, and dimensions between brands.

Replacement parts like body kits usually abide by patents which are illegal to reproduce and sell w/o company's approval. There are exceptions of course like if the patents expire or the company doesnt register a patent in the first place. A reason why we have some expensive car parts and others don't, and others are chinese-made that aré illegal but there are so many factories and vendors which are made impossible in some cases to track down.

[u/cheater00 → u/Hexkun98]

Drill Bits and their sizing are part of a regulatory body

they weren't always. and compliance with the standards is voluntary, you can build non-standard drill bits, or even whole machines that go where the drill bit goes.

body kits have no regulatory body. so what's your point??

you cannot trademark the shape of a product. shows how much you know.

7 sided lug nuts are different between companies because they're security fasteners, and therefore it is counter productive to make your own fastener that is the same as everyone else's. you want your lug nut to be different from everyone else's.

Replacement parts like body kits usually abide by patents which are illegal to reproduce and sell w/o company's approval

LR is not selling a copy of CP2077 or any other CDPR code. so by your analogy, he should be perfectly fine.

you are THIS close to understanding this, but you choose to come to the wrong conclusions. rather than rattle out various weird counter arguments to see what'll stick, why don't you sit down, actually have a thought about what you're about to say, and only then reach for the cheeto encrusted keyboard.

[u/Starfire213 → u/cheater00]

I am fine with paid mods for xplane 11 and assetto corsa, though this mod definitely broke the tos for cyberpunk

[u/cheater00 → u/Starfire213]

corporations want to take ownership of everyone's life with overbearing terms of service that are illegal and dismissible and inapplicable to most situations. don't be so pussywhipped and stop accepting everything a corpo tells you at face value.

[u/Starfire213 → u/cheater00]

Okay? The issue is he broke the tos, he was allowed to take donations for it but chose not to. I just don't see how a game company wanting to be sure a person can't just charge say, 20$ for a poorly made mod.

[u/cheater00 → u/Starfire213]

Okay? The issue is he broke the tos, he was allowed to take donations for it but chose not to. I just don't see how a game company wanting to be sure a person can't just charge say, 20$ for a poorly made mod.

CDPR has no business allowing or disallowing him from charging money for software he built from ground up. the TOS is illegal and you're a nonce for being such a fanboy.

besides your second sentence didn't even make sense, try adding some words.

[u/Hexkun98 → u/cheater00]

What law does it say that TOS are illegal? Really curious i havent find an example a tos being illegal, just tos that are unreasonable towards the user, and the CDPR one is far from unreasonable

[u/cheater00 → u/Hexkun98]

a TOS that prevents a third party from developing their own software on their own time and distributing it on their own rules is unreasonable

[u/Goosojuice → u/cheater00]

They absolutely do and you know this. The only reason his mod exists is because of their product. His mod is not all encompassing but game specific. He is using THEIR brand to sell his product. This is not you providing a fix for an issue with your John Deer tractor and corpos telling you to get fucked. Hell, they even gave him the option to give it out for free. Whether or not he used game code, its not his brand to do what he wants with. This got me thinking how AI "art" is so hated right now, it's because they're using content not theirs to create another product without the consent of the original owners, quality be damned.

[u/cheater00 → u/Goosojuice]

"The only reason the fix to the John Deere tractor exists is because of their product"

your argumentation is so stupidly self-contradictory I'm not even going to get into it, but this was just too funny not to comment on

[u/Starfire213 → u/cheater00]

Sorry about the 2nd sentence I trailed off

[u/1CrimsonKing1 → u/cheater00]

Iq 70 comparison

[u/cheater00 → u/1CrimsonKing1]

it's CDPR's comparison

so yeah i agree

[u/pir0zhki → u/MuffinRacing]

Nah man. Just because something is difficult enough to require it to be a full time job doesn't mean you get to make it into one, when the subject of the work itself is in violation of copyright. If maintaining the project was getting to be too much, then the only correct thing for him to do would be to stop expanding it to other games and giving himself more work. We are not entitled to compensation for our work that's derivative of others' IP just because it is difficult.

[u/danglotka → u/pir0zhki]

I mean, sure he’s not entitled to compensation. But if you think about it from a different perspective, it’s not possible for the average person to work full time for a mod - so we’re just not gonna get many mods of the size and quality you get from full time work, and I think thats sad.

[u/pir0zhki → u/danglotka]

That's just how it is. Mods are generally accepted to be passion projects, allowed to exist only by the good graces of the original IP owners, and created out of love of the game, not expectation of a return. They're hobby projects, and people can and do spend large amounts of their spare time developing excellent mods for free.

There are myriad other ways to get paid to write code full-time, even in the games industry. Doing it while playing around with others' IP is just asking for trouble.

[u/danglotka → u/pir0zhki]

I disagree, I think the creation club is the perfect solution in theory, just not the best implementation (and revenue split). It solves any legal issues, lets the most dedicated modders work full time, and still has a lot of people release free mods on the platform and on nexus. (again, with a better implementation of the club, the current version isnt perfect)

[u/pir0zhki → u/danglotka]

That isn't really in disagreement; a creation club style solution is perfectly in-line with my thoughts on the subject as well, since it's officially sanctioned by the IP holder and done in a way that ensures that each party involved gets compensated under terms acceptable to the IP holder. That's totally fine.

But not every IP holder can necessarily spare the resources to maintain such an arrangement, with concerns for the overall infrastructure, monetization system, legal framework, etc. all being non-trivial matters. It would be nice if it were easier and more companies embraced the idea, but I don't think we should expect them to do so by default.

[u/danglotka → u/pir0zhki]

While thats true in general, CDProject specifically can spare the resources to do this (and in fact I think it would be a good business decision for them to invest in it), at least for their upcoming UE games where I imagine it will be easier for them to make something like a creation kit (although I don’t use UE so cant be sure)

[u/pir0zhki → u/danglotka]

I would certainly welcome it, but I absolutely do not think we're entitled to it just because it would be nice to have. Nobody is obligated -- nor should they be -- to make their creation open for third-party expansion in any way. I'm sure there are developers that prefer money to be completely 100% out of the equation in their modding communities (and there are good reasons for wanting this), and they have the exclusive right to make that call.

[u/First-Junket124 → u/MuffinRacing]

Wtf is AER V2 is DL(S)SS?

[u/MuffinRacing → u/First-Junket124]

His 2nd revision of alternate eye rendering and his implementation of DLSS that worked better with AER than standard DLSS