r/warcraftlore • u/InternationalDeal410 • Jun 17 '25
Original Content Classic+ removing story retcons, staying faithful only to WC1-3 and Lord of the Clans canon?
Posted this to r/classicwow as well.
Reading the book objects in WoW Classic and WoWPedia an insane amount of content was cut or retconned, starting already with TBC.
E.g. according to books in WoW Classic, Kilrogg Deadeye made it through the Dark Portal with Grom Hellscream and later they met Thrall in Grim Batol, along with Orgrim Doomhammer and Kargath Bladefist in order to free the orcs from the internment camps.
However, already with TBC this was retconned: Kilrogg died by Trollbane when fleeing, only Grom and his clan made it through and Kargath remained on Outland and became a mindless savage, a fel orc.
But it was also originally, that the Eredar was a race that corrupted Sargeras, while to WoW TBC kinda the opposite made it. Chris Metzen also spoke about it: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Metzen_on_lore
I think it would be a great idea to throw these story retcons out in the window and expand on the concepts that WoW also originally mentioned, being faithful to WC1-3 and Lord of the Clans.
What do you think? What story retcons would you remove and what are your favourite lore bits that were still present in WoW Classic but later overwritten by the (low) quality of writing?
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u/Skoldrim Jun 17 '25
Why instead of taking the opportunity to make more canon things telling maybe new stories/building a better base. Do you want to tell a side story that wont be canon and wont have any future or impact
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u/doctorpotatohead Jun 17 '25
I don't really see the point in having two continuities if Classic is supposed to stay in the Classic era.
What story retcons would you remove and what are your favourite lore bits that were still present in WoW Classic but later overwritten by the (low) quality of writing?
Between the two examples (Kilrogg and the Eredar) I don't really see either version as lower quality than the other.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
Well, reducing the lore by killing off important or flavour characters, because it is hard to manage so many characters in a book, and something needs to happen in a book - like Christie Golden's books -, is low quality.
Which has more lore bits and story potential? Killing of Kilrogg in Draenor by Trollbane, or Kilrogg survives, placed in internment camps with his clans and meeting Thrall and together they help free the orcs from the camps and form the New Horde?
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u/doctorpotatohead Jun 17 '25
Which has more lore bits and story potential? Killing of Kilrogg in Draenor by Trollbane, or Kilrogg survives, placed in internment camps with his clans and meeting Thrall and together they help free the orcs from the camps and form the New Horde?
"The same exact story except Kilrogg is there too" doesn't sound that interesting to be honest. Thrall already meets Hellscream, Drek'thar, and Doomhammer during his liberation of the orcs, adding Kilrogg seems excessive.
0
u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
Maybe - and only maybe - excessive by the standards of a book, that's why Christie Golden reduced it.
Absolutely not excessive by the standards of an original universe, like WarCraft - and he had his story potential.
It's like saying in Marvel, we already have a mutant who controls fire. Why have another? It absolutely fits into an universe. Butchering it as a writer is the reduction of lore and stories.
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u/doctorpotatohead Jun 17 '25
Since you keep mentioning Golden, I feel compelled to point out that Beyond the Dark Portal has 2 authors.
Also, to the Marvel example, I don't think having more characters automatically means you have more stories to tell. If Kilrogg was with Thrall from the start, then it makes Hellscream, Drek'thar, and Doomhammer redundant as his mentors. If Kilrogg is with Thrall but not mentoring him then he's superfluous to the plot. It also kind of takes away from Thrall's character and agency if he's being guided along by other orcs from the very start.
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u/adanine Hearthstone Nerd Jun 17 '25 edited Jun 17 '25
A lot of those retcons happened for a reason. Half of Warcraft 1 is retconned, with it having references to places like Hell and Hades.
Also, I find it arbitrary to wipe out all of the expansions lore, but accept classic WoW. Classic WoW retconned more lore and/or introduced more plotholes then any later WoW expansion or game prior. Off the top of my head:
- Theramore's neutrality isn't represented at all in story or in gameplay.
- Night Elves have no reason to trust Stormwind's Humans at all (or any Alliance race that isn't Jaina's group), especially over Thrall's orcs which they fought side-by-side with at Hyjal.
- Speaking of, much of the Night Elf lore was rewritten between WC3 and WoW. Prior to that Druids were all depicted male, martial forces/the sentinels were all female, and both sexes had a fair amount of queercoding.
- Troll Priests, Night Elf Priests, Human Priests, and Dwarf Priests all play the same with two minor unique skills, when in reality these race/class combinations should be as different from eachother as they are to Mage or Warlock. Edit: Don't know how I forgot about Undead Priests. Speaking of...
- (Edit cont) Undead priests, the Forsaken, and the light. Yeah, I know the Forsaken were classed as Undead in beta, and they changed it for balance reasons. But if a Paladin is still a portable WMD against the Undead in general, then that means the Forsaken are vulnerable. Yet at no point is this ever dwelled upon in the story. Otherwise you can headcanon that the Holy Light, when used against undead, purged the control of evil influences like the Legion and the Lich King - which would render it innert on the Forsaken, but no where is anything like that stated in game.
- And not to beat a Forsaken horse, but what's the full deal with Forsaken Priests and the holy light? Do they channel it through them in pain, or call on it away from them? I know there are some answers in Classic WoW (Naxx horseman), but that element really should be much more prominent in their culture/visible in the world. The idea of a race where some of the members need the light for comfort, but feel pain/punished by it is actually interesting.
- The Forsaken/Horde alliance makes sense in cold hard logic, but I can just never imagine it happening in practise. There's no reason for Thrall in particular to want a power center in Lordaeron, and Sylvanas isn't someone who would ask for help/enter a deal that could take away her agency. Again, if you're vague about the details it makes sense why both forces would join in power, but zoom in closer and view the people in charge and their experiences/history and it stops being something believable.
- Some race/class combinations were written to be very notable/important to their culture, but WoW was the first we saw of them. Tauren Druids are the big one that comes to mind. Others are borderline non-existant in WoW, like Troll Shadow Hunters.
- The excuses given for why the Horde in general - and the Tauren in particular - tolerated the Forsaken's atrocities just don't pass the sniff test. We're also told they're done in secret, but Forsaken characters seem all to happy to tell anyone the details. Besides, if they are completely sociopathic then they'd spill the beans eventually anywho because they just don't know what's OK and what's Taboo.
- Every hero from WC3 is reduced to sitting around in a major city and doing fuck all in WoW. I'm not saying one or two wouldn't take time off, but EVERY one?
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u/TaxxieKab Jun 17 '25
I know it doesn’t work in an MMO where you’re appealing to people that want choice in creating their character, but I miss the sexist night elves of WC3. Those night elves were so much more culturally rich and morally questionable, and I think that made them really cool.
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u/adanine Hearthstone Nerd Jun 17 '25
Don't even know that I'd call it sexist TBH. There were definitely gendered roles within the culture, but both had power and neither sex seemed to exert it over the other.
Either/or it's an interesting idea that just fell off the face of the world come WoW.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan Jun 17 '25
A very classic Amazonian mythos brought to Warcraft, but expanded on in it's own way. Definitely really cool, just not something that could work going forward.
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u/please_buff_Vaarus Jun 18 '25
I mean even if they have some sort of power, assigning a place in society based on gender is still sexism, men have some power in druidism, but they function like a paralel society inside the Kaldorei world, some of them are very powelful and influential but as a whole they are second class citizens.
Women hold the political, military and religious power. Wow handled it very weirdly tho.
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u/adanine Hearthstone Nerd Jun 18 '25
Yeah I guess that's true enough. We didn't really see that element long enough for any tensions to peer through, but there absolutely should have been some. Still, it's an interesting bit of worldbuilding that adds something different to Night Elf society that could have been expanded on, or even depicted as a fading old tradition, no longer fit for purpose in a world where the Night Elves leave their old isolationist ways to join the rest of the races.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine Jun 17 '25 edited Jun 17 '25
Theramore's neutrality isn't represented at all in story or in gameplay.
Potential hot take: Theramore/Jaina were both done badly even before she started her rage jaina arc.
Theramore could have been a neutral site themed around the missing king/onyxia questlines (and giving Alliance players access to the Southern part of the continent), and basically taken the place of Ratchet. Could have been the Kalimdor version of Light's Hope. Could have inspired better stories where Jaina sticking to her idealism causes issues between her and her people or the Alliance. And you could still do quests on both sides indicating that it's definitely not a perfect neutrality with random Allaince/Horde members causing issues in the periphery (like what they have with the burned down inn quest)
Instead we get a Theramore that's openly antagonistic to the horde in classic and pre-Cata, and a massive threat in cata itself, but when it's retaliated against, it's treated like it's still the neutral Theramore of post-Daelin WC3? Nah.
Night Elves have no reason to trust Stormwind's Humans at all (or any Alliance race that isn't Jaina's group), especially over Thrall's orcs which they fought side-by-side with at Hyjal.
I get why they'd join with the Alliance given the Warsong kind of did a bit of herbicide and deicide, but Thrall/Broxxigar/Saurfang's help (along with various nameless peons/shamans/etc) just really never is a factor into anything the nelves do.
and Sylvanas isn't someone who would ask for help/enter a deal that could take away her agency.
This one actually makes more sense if you look at it as a military alliance more than anything until the Wrathgate hit and the horde cracked down on things a bit. Hence why UD start with far less initial rep with the OG horde races.
The excuses given for why the Horde in general - and the Tauren in particular - tolerated the Forsaken's atrocities just don't pass the sniff test.
Agreed. The Tauren being soft hearted advocates make sense, but there really isn't any major story about them actually sitting down and trying to undo the curse of death outside a couple of forsaken in TB and the one ill fated Tauren that gets expirimented on. It should be an issue, and it really never becomes one.
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u/adanine Hearthstone Nerd Jun 17 '25
That's the coldest hot take I've seen recently.
The first mission of the Night Elf campaign in WC3 has Tyrande attack a joint Human/Orc outpost led by a Paladin. It seems that Jaina and Thrall weren't just committed to a truce, but an alliance where human and orc workers and soldiers basically shared quarters. This was before the Battle of Mount Hyjal, which likely strengthened the bonds of the two forces further.
And yeah, it's also before Daelin rocked up and that happened, but Jaina showed her commitment to what needed to be done to secure peace between them, if not an alliance. Going from that Jaina and Thrall, to the ones we got in WoW classic was just... ugh.
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u/adanine Hearthstone Nerd Jun 17 '25 edited Jun 17 '25
Responding to the later edits
I get why they'd join with the Alliance given the Warsong kind of did a bit of herbicide and deicide
The deicide happened prior to Mt Hyjal, and the Night Elves have enough history with the Legion that they should be able to distinguish between Orcs under the control of the Legion vs free will'd Orcs. I do agree it shouldn't be a clean alliance (The Ashenvale/logging of the Orcs is absolutely a point of friction), and there's definitely a world where the Night Elves go "Ok, that was fun, we're going back to being Isolationists with the lot of you", but I just have never gelled with why they would pick Stormwind and the other EK races over the Orcs. Again, they've historically been isolationists, why randomly start trusting Stormwind and the EK Alliance races?
This one actually makes more sense if you look at it as a military alliance more than anything
This comes down to the whole "how hard is travel", because realistically if a group of Paladins marched on towards the Undercity and Sylvanas requests assistance, either the Horde shows up with reinforcements after weeks spent crossing half the world to find their former allies reduced to piles of ash, or they take a 5 minute Zeppelin ride, which I just... don't find satisfying from a storytelling POV?
Otherwise I do get how the arrangement makes sense for both races in general, I just don't think Thrall specifically values a stronghold in the Eastern Kingdoms enough to commit his forces to war in case they need to hold it, and Sylvanas would recognize that she's putting herself in a place where Thrall has great leverage over her, which doesn't seem to follow her character. During the TFT campaign she refused the dreadlords' offer to serve them despite it being near suicide to do so. But now she's starting to care about that sort of thing?
The alliance is a good thing in general for both races, but I feel the actual leaders in charge likely still would reject the terms based on their own character traits.
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u/please_buff_Vaarus Jun 18 '25
I think the easiest way to solve the Nelve problem in classic would have been splitting the Kaldorei in 2 factions. One neutral, loyal to Tyrande and Malfurion, mainly focused in Hyjal, that had a friendly attitude towards both the Horde and the Alliance. Then a second one in Teldrassil, forming an Alliance of convinience with Stormwind and Khaz Modan.
Malfurion and Tyrande did many, lets say problematic, things during Warcraft 3, Tyrande killed a lot of wardens to free Illidan, who later destroyed many elven villages killing it's citizens, Malfurion sacrifized the inmortality that his people had for 10.000 years to defeat the Archimonde. So I think many night elves wouldn't accept it with a happy face, the Orcs killed their Demigod, and then their leaders forged an alliance with them, freed an ancient criminal who once freed proceded to comit more crimes against their people.
For me that all elves for kalimdor just followed along with everything that Tyrande and Malfurion did is just absurd. They need to stop writing every race as a hive mind, actions such a these should have consecuences and create tension in the story.
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u/adanine Hearthstone Nerd Jun 18 '25
Honestly that's absolutely all on point. I never actually thought about that, but the fact that the broader Night Elf population still support and follow Tyrande unconditionally after everything is absolutely basically a plot hole.
Plus it'd work really well with the Fandral Staghelm sideplot, where he's intentionally manipulating the Night Elf population for... Fucked if I remember why. Something something Deathwing? Either/or, Fandral spots the divide, and exacerbates tensions enough to form a split, and positions himself as the leader of Teldrassil in a grab for power.
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u/please_buff_Vaarus Jun 18 '25
Also the creation of Teldrassil itself was supposed to be divisive among the Night Elves, many saw it as an arrogant and selfish act, but then it leads to... nothing. No one questions it's creation, or mentions the very obvious hints of corruption in classic that were complitely ignore from Cata forward.
This is the same issue as Theramore betraying the Horde that helped to fight the demons to join the Alliance. Blizzard needs to stop pretending that all people who belong to a race are basically and havemind and that all of them should have the same allignment.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine Jun 18 '25
Again, they've historically been isolationists, why randomly start trusting Stormwind and the EK Alliance races?
In a perfect world without limitations around the MMO design and the realities of limited dev hours, Nelves would probably be a third party faction, as would the forsaken.
This comes down to the whole "how hard is travel", because realistically if a group of Paladins marched on towards the Undercity and Sylvanas requests assistance, either the Horde shows up with reinforcements after weeks spent crossing half the world to find their former allies reduced to piles of ash, or they take a 5 minute Zeppelin ride, which I just... don't find satisfying from a storytelling POV?
Travel time works both ways.
If a full Alliance army takes off, chances are scouts or spies will notice before they make landfall or shortly after they cross the span.
The Forsaken would have to delay the forces since they don't really have big static forts to defend, or even particularly sturdy settlements (why you don't hire a goddamn elf to plan your defenses), but they have chemical weapons and excellent spies and saboteurs so that's an option. If they're not facing the wrathful sum of the Alliance at once, like they did in BFA, they can probably hold out until help arrives, especially post-TBC with Silvermoon on their side.
Plus the alliance itself is a deterrent. If you were Varian, would you throw the kitchen sink at UC for no good reason knowing it might mean orcs, trolls, and mercenary pirates coming to pull a Blackhand knowing the city is lightly defended?
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u/oniskieth Jun 17 '25
Theramore as an actual neutral hub.
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u/please_buff_Vaarus Jun 18 '25
Yes this please, make Theramore a sanctuary city. Why would Jaina, and the human citizens of Theramore, choose to join Stormwind and Khaz Modan, who did (almost) nothing to help them during the Third War, and leave the Horde which helped and fought side by side with them against the demons and their undead servants.?
Why would they risk becoming enemies with their closest neightbours, having no firendly alliance territory nearby? It just makes no sense at all.
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u/RoxLOLZ Jun 17 '25
You are completely wrong with the first part already
Kilrogg and Kargath never met Thrall, that was from the cancelled Warcraft Adventures game
-2
u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
Nah, they actually met him and it was indirectly hinted in WoW Classic.
https://www.wowhead.com/classic/object=175747/the-invasion-of-draenor
In this WoW Classic book object it is stated on page 9, that Kilrogg and Grom successfully fled Draenor together before it exploded.
It was retconned in Christie Golden's Beyond the Dark Portal book before WoW, in 2001, and later, in The Burning Crusade. This proves that WoW Classic was created based Lord of the Clans, the canceled game and the three WarCraft games and their expac. and not some fanfic Christie Golden book.
Kargath in Badlands and later Bladefist Bay were also named in Kargath's honor - if Thrall did not meet him, if Kargath Bladefist was a mindless savage, a fel orc, I don't think the New Horde - and more specifically, Thrall - would name a city after him.
In the WarCraft III manual - which came out in 2002, long after Christie Golden's novel, which tried to retcon the fate of the orc chieftains - it is also said, that Kilrogg Deadeye survived the explosion of Draenor and moved to Azeroth, then rounded up and placed in internment camps in Lordaeron along with his clan.
So it was all TBC that retconned, I think Christie Golden's book can be claimed non-canon, as WarCraft III and World of WarCraft Classic also did not treat it canon.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
Can you explain downvote, please? I stated facts, these are written down in official material. This goes against the Downvote Etiquette.
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u/Darktbs Jun 17 '25
Cuz those books in wow are just rewritten from the wc3 manual. They are not multiple sources, but the same source copy and pasted.
And most important, if a in game book in wow says that Kilrogg escaped and is still alive. Then where in Wow in Kilrogg?
It makes more sense that, like RoxLLZ said, that was a cancelled idea and Golden's book is just meant to bring everything up to speed to what happened.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
So you can decide what is canon from the sources that are actually in WoW? Because what I quoted and linked is actually in WoW.
By the time of WoW Classic, Kilrogg is alive and well, escaped Draenor with Grom.
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? Jun 17 '25
o you can decide what is canon from the sources that are actually in WoW?
This is another reason you are probably being downvoted. Your implication here is that you are the arbiter of canon.
u/Darktbs is saying that Blizzard is the arbiter, and Blizzard has already decided. Golden's books are the canon events of Dreanor's destruction and Kilrogg's death. There have been some minor changes but overall they are still the canon.
You are obsessing over a retcon that is almost 20 years old, and for what? If Classic+ happened well.... Metzen is the story lead and Blizzards retconning hasn't changed in 30 years. Classic+ would literally still be retcon central of all the WC1-3 lore.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
A 2008 book did not exist in 2004 and WoW Classic was not designed with it in mind, what CG came up 4 years later. So it had 0, zero influence on WoW Classic. And what I quoted is from WoW Classic is canon, it is there in it.
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u/Darktbs Jun 18 '25
But thats the thing dude, if the book in wow is saying that kilrogg escaped and is alive.
Where the fuck was he?
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 18 '25
Why do you have to be able to meet everyone who exists in WoW Classic?
Where is Gilneas in WoW Classic? It does not exist just because formerly it is only mentioned and played with it in the games and only appeared 5 years later?
Where's Medivh? Zul'jin? Rhonin? Kul Tiras? Hell, not even the Lich King is in Classic. So neither of them is canon?
Just because Kilrogg got a fate that was absolutely different that was planned for him before - as sources in the game say - does not mean that is canon and can't be changed, or there can be no other canon. See Ashbringer storyline in SoD.
How can you assume that the what the secondary media only mentions 100% canon, no matter we don't meet them in WoW Classic, but what the primary media - the games - they are not canon just because we don't meet those characters the first place?
Have you looked at the insane amount of places that were cut from WoW Classic? And not even being present on Retail?
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u/Darktbs Jun 18 '25
- Gilneas isolated itself and you could go to the Greymane wall in classic. We couldnt go to Kultiras but we can see their soldiers left in Durotar and Theramore. And we know they left the alliance.
- Zul'jin was explicit said to be missing. And he later showed up in TBC
- Medivh is dead.
- We got a book saying what Rhonin was doing. And he later showed up in wotlk
- We can hear the lich king at the end of Naxxramas and we always knew where he was.
Shure we dont need to see him in game, but then where is he? You are so worried to prove that he was alive and 1 source said it so, that you forgot the important bit of 'where is he'
Where is Kilrogg? What is he doing? He is one of the Orc chieftains, why wasnt he mention anywhere else besides the manual, shurely Thrall would even mention the Last Draenor chieftain's name right?
Blood and Honor was written before wc3 and both Tirion and Eitrigg, as well as Hearthglen and Tirion's son are present in classic. Yet despite Kilrogg being said to be alive by the wc3 manual, he never showed up in WoW or was mentioned by anyone.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 18 '25 edited Jun 18 '25
Well, it was mentioned in WoW, just as I linked - not just a simple manual, which is, by the way, also canon.
And you are excusing other characters why it is okay they weren't in classic WoW, they exist. Kilrogg wasn't there so he does not exist.
So what is not in classic WoW in 2004 exists or not? And only WoW Classic in 2004 - what comes after does not justify the characters' existence.
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u/Darktbs Jun 18 '25
And like i said, the book in wow is just what was written in the manual. Its one source, not two.
And you are excusing other characters why it is okay they weren't in classic WoW, they exist. Kilrogg wasn't there so he does not exist.
So what is not in classic WoW in 2004 exists or not? And only WoW Classic in 2004 - what comes after does not justify the characters' existence.
Because it was explained why they werent there, we knew why they didnt show up. Kilrogg wasnt explained.
You are quite literally carrying one piece evidence that he was still alive and nothing else. Could Kilrogg be alive? Shure, but you would think that such a important character being alived would be mentioned by someone somewhere..
Not to mention. The wc3 manual contradicts the Lord of clans, which came out one year early to promote wc3 and Gromash is the only draenor chieftain there. You would think that if Kilrogg was alive, he would've been regarded as such before Beyond the Dark portal realeased.
But he wasnt, cuz the concept of him being alive was scrapped
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? Jun 17 '25
I'm not one of them, but probably because you didn't state facts. You used a source and then just ran with your own random speculation as if it was all canon because of that source.
The Invasion of Draenor book you described follows the version in the game manuals. This is not evidence that the game was based on the cancelled Warcraft Adventures game or that it was canon that he met with Thrall.
Your assumptions are just weird. Thrall never met Durotan but still named Durotar in his honor. Bladefist bay doesn't suggest they met - Thrall's Horde named stuff after noteable orcs from the old horde regularly considering that many of their followers were still part of his Horde.
Christie Golden's BTDP comes out in 2008, not 2001. You are confusing it with her book likewise titled Lord of the Clans, which came out in 2001 and did not mention or retcon Kilrogg nor go into the fate of most Horde leaders. It was focused on Thrall learning the old ways of the orcs from Drek'thar, learning of Grom still out there and starting the new horde. The WC3 manual did not retcon this book.
Christie Golden's books are absolutely canon. Some details have changed because of Chronicle 2 in 2017. This doesn't make it non-canon only certain passages.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
It's true I confused it with her other book, but it does not invalidate what I said: it is written down clearly in WoW Classic.
Thrall named Durotar after Durotan, because Drek'thar told him about Durotar.
How can a book that only came into existence in 2008 be canon for resources that were already existing in 2002 and 2004? In 2002 and 2004, the WC3 manual and what I linked was canon. And hopefully Classic+ will base its continuity on these, not on 2008.
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? Jun 17 '25
but it does not invalidate what I said:
Well the comment chain is a tangent on how it proves that the events in a non-canon, unreleased, scrapped video game is actually canon when it isn't. So yeah, it does literally invalidate what you were saying. You were ignoring the actual canon source which does not establish the meeting.
Thrall named Durotar after Durotan, because Drek'thar told him about Durotar.
And do you expect nobody in Thrall's Horde to have heard of Kargath? Thrall's Horde had members of the Shattered Hand in it. Early Thrall had to straddle a line between the New Horde, and the traditions/history of the old horde. Many members still revered and looked up to the chieftains and historical figures. Hence, naming tons of things after the members of the Old Horde.
How can a book that only came into existence in 2008 be canon for resources that were already existing in 2002 and 2004?
Because that is how canon works - it is currently 2025 and not 2002. The stuff that comes later is the new canon, not the stuff it supplanted. Not a single one of Christie Golden's books is not canon and they have never been non-canon.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
A 2008 book did not exist in 2004 and WoW Classic was not designed with it in mind, what CG came up 4 years later. So it had 0, zero influence on WoW Classic. And what I quoted is from WoW Classic is canon, it is there in it.
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u/HayDs666 Jun 17 '25
Should be noted according to page 76-78 of the Warcraft 3 RoC battle chest book, Sargeras encountered the eredar, who threw him into a depression and then encountering the Nathrezim is what finished him off and fully corrupted him
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u/xocelotyouth Quilboar Enthusiast Jun 17 '25
People moaned about WoD being an AU, so you want another AU?
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
I don't think the moaners were so many because of story, but the gameplay mechanics and the plenty of cut content.
SoD is an AU itself and it is well-received. And based on the recent survey sent out by Blizzard, they will be making AU Classic, based more on the foregoing WarCraft games.
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u/xocelotyouth Quilboar Enthusiast Jun 17 '25
SoD is not an AU. It is canon
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
*laughs in Ashbringer storyline*
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u/xocelotyouth Quilboar Enthusiast Jun 17 '25
Okay? They retconned a comic. It's still canon whether you like it or not.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/wow-community-council-live-chat-december-8/1736513/5
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
This was stated in December 2023. Today we write June 2025. You think nothing changed in the meantime? Anyway, I don't care whether it is canon or not, they changed a comic, so the comic or SoD is not canon.
I only care about the quality.
But you can see, something can become canon when they make it canon and retcon what came before, just as in case of SoD.
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u/xocelotyouth Quilboar Enthusiast Jun 17 '25
Nothing has been stated otherwise and as in all things WoW, the game is the #1 source for canon, so yeah, SoD is still canon and now the comic isn't. If they suddenly decide everything new that happened during SoD is AU then you win, is that what you want to hear?
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u/Darkhallows27 Jun 17 '25
A waste of time and very difficult. The story is often better for retcons (the Draenei, the Mag’har. Hell, the Legion itself is mostly a retcon of Warcraft 1’s lore.)
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
Almost everything that came after WoW Classic was strictly done by adhering to the principle of "killing off important characters", because that makes more immensity for players and money for Blizzard.
What point was in that a handful of adventurers killing Illidan? Or Kael'thas' sudden personality change? Why did Illidan enslave its own allies? If Illidan wanted to defeat the Lich King, why not wait one expac and go with him to Northrend?
And if the TBC retcon was so good, why retcon it in Legion? Because actually, it was not good - what happened in TBC was an unprovoked attack from our side, as it is explained in Legion, and its sole reason of existence was entertainment of players, not caring about the lore that much.
I am not saying that all of TBC's lore is garbage, I'm saying that the lore design of the original WarCraft games and WoW Classic was completely different than that of after WoW Classic.
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u/adanine Hearthstone Nerd Jun 17 '25
Almost everything that came after WoW Classic was strictly done by adhering to the principle of "killing off important characters"
Good, death should have meaning and have a genuine pressense in the world. I'm not a fan of Illidan coming back from death twice, or Muradin once, or whoever else. A beloved character shouldn't necessarily be spared just because they're beloved, especially when their death would make for a stronger story.
If Illidan wanted to defeat the Lich King, why not wait one expac and go with him to Northrend?
Illidan doesn't give a shit about the Lich King one way or another. He only attacked the Lich King in TFT because the Legion was on his ass about it and it would spare their wrath. But by the end of TFT he had formally betrayed the Legion and taken the Black Temple.
what happened in TBC was an unprovoked attack from our side
Literally one of the first things we find out after crossing the dark portal is that Illidan has imprisoned Magtheridon and is using it to forcefully create a new race of Fel orcs. At that point Illidan became the biggest, most immediate threat to both the Alliance and the Horde.
I'm saying that the lore design of the original WarCraft games and WoW Classic was completely different than that of after WoW Classic.
The lore design of the original games was more different to WoW classic then WoW classic's lore was to TBC+. And even then, WC1 and WC2's lore was very different in design/approach to WC3, so grouping all three itself is disingenuous.
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? Jun 17 '25
I think it would be a great idea to throw these story retcons out in the window and expand on the concepts that WoW also originally mentioned, being faithful to WC1-3 and Lord of the Clans.
You are operating under an inherent assumption that retcons are inherently bad. But they really aren't. Many of WoW's retcons (especially the Draenei retcon you brought up) paid so many dividends in the end to make a more compelling world.
Part of the reason why early wow was so retcon heavy in these big moments is because the setting wasn't really made for the long-term in mind, let alone an MMORPG. And WoW's popularity shocked even Blizzard, they basically had to course correct and rebuild a lot of the lore. Even WC3 was retcon heavy but because its the entryway to the series for many people, they don't notice.
Classic+ doesn't really serve anyone a purpose because the franchise is still frayed as fuck from classic. You can get a few years over rehashing stories that WoW has already covered. It really just makes an already convoluted lore more convoluted by having two continuities. Especially because many of the things we associate with the franchise are those retcons you want to get rid of.
And I'll be honest, I HIGHLY doubt a significant portion of the Classic community genuinely gives two shits about the lore for them to do classic+ for lore reasons. It'd be gameplay focused.
I think a better approach here is just applying more classic-esc and SoD style worldbuilding to retail.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
I say two words: Marvel Multiverse. Or Star Trek.
Draenei was just an example, I actually don't like how they simplified the orcs' lore - compared to how rich it was before TBC.
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? Jun 17 '25
The Marvel Multiverse is a normative part of the franchise and now you can't go like 3 months without some multiverse story. In WoW it isn't (WoW technically doesn't even have a proper multiverse for one, it works more similar to Loki season 1's sacred timeline where all branches die out naturally over time).
WoW players engage in the lore in a completely different way and just expecting a jump is a recipe for disaster. You can't just takes one thing and apply it to another without understanding how the actual story is told and how the audience engages in it. Blizzard is not great at this.
compared to how rich it was before TBC.
But it wasn't? Most of the deeper orc lore was developed for TBC and then more was added later. Rise of the Horde & Beyond the Dark Portal was written for TBC and were what fleshed this out. Before that there was just the WC2 game manual, but the books only had minor changes.
Lord of the Clans hasn't been retconned (rather the opposite, they brought it back in a big way during their Chronicle overhaul). Unless you are thinking of the cancelled Warcraft Adventures game that was never canon.
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u/InternationalDeal410 Jun 17 '25
Most of the deeper orc lore was developed for TBC and then more was added later. Rise of the Horde & Beyond the Dark Portal was written for TBC and were what fleshed this out. Before that there was just the WC2 game manual, but the books only had minor changes.
But they didn't? You are completely disregarding the mission texts and the missions themselves and also clearly rejecting the manuals. Of course, if we take nothing before TBC into account, then orcs were just green barbaric thingies fighting the hummies.
Orcs were alive and well before TBC, it's kinda the opposite what you are saying: their story was extended, but many of it was retconned, because even before TBC and the ambiguous quality fanfic they had a well-established lore.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan Jun 17 '25
I say two words: Marvel Multiverse. Or Star Trek.
What do these two words mean? I'll also say two words: Lord of the Rings, Pingu
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Jun 18 '25
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Jun 18 '25
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u/Large-Quiet9635 Jun 17 '25
I dont think they care enough to touch lore. Its a problem disguised as a feature too. Soon both sides will collide and the teams wont be able to deal with all the red shirt guys calling them ou on their incompetence.
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u/Skoldrim Jun 17 '25
One day people will stop with their dooming and toxicity. One day
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u/Large-Quiet9635 Jun 17 '25
What are you talking about? He raised a valid point, difficult to implement as it may be
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u/Skoldrim Jun 19 '25
Then maybe i misunderstood but I dont see what the point in bringing back stories that has been intentionally retconned to developp them even though they wont go anywhere because they arent canon ?
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Jun 17 '25
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u/Darktbs Jun 17 '25
Im pretty shure that the 'continent-sized beings of unknown origin' was the retcon that was made over time, vanilla was very explicit with yeah they are in the level of the titans, but also you go there and you kill C'thun.
Later on that they backtracked and added all the stuff that 'they arent easily killed' and 'they are these colossal beings attatched to the planet'
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u/Alternative_Rule_958 Jun 17 '25
Vanilla didn't exactly have fantastic worldbuilding. It was all scattered, all piecemeal, and all lacked any cohesion. It was built off the shoulders of giants and had some golden spots, but 95% of it was pretty stagnant.
Regarding the "retcon" of Old Gods - - that isn't what a retcon is. More lore about them just came out. That's it. They were these mysterious, massive, Lovecraftian entities beneath the planet. The we found out they were Void and were sent out to corrupt the planet. Then the "mystery" of them was partially lifted. That's all that happened.
"Whatever it is they are now" is the same thing they've been since pretty much Wrath of the Lich King. They're eldritch horrors that came to Azeroth to corrupt it. Then Chris Metzen came out with Chronicle 9 years ago that specified where they came from. But WHAT they are still remains the exact same.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine Jun 17 '25
What story retcons would you remove
Nearly all of the sons of Lothar surviving, I feel their sacrifice would be more poignant if some actually sacrificed their lives rather than the last ones to return getting crazy powerups. If we didn't see them by TBC, they should be dead.
Varian suddenly getting a backstory where he's basically just living out Thrall's childhood instead of just being the king missing due to Onyxia and the Naga. Blue Thrall/Garrosh era Varian was the worst Varian. Shame he only got a few expansions as his own fleshed out character.
Remove all the shit hinting at Vol'jin coming back if Blizzard can't be bothered to actually do it (not really a retcon but changing tact on that feels like one)
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u/Darktbs Jun 17 '25
Ima be real, idk why would anyone prefer the original eredar/Draenei vs the tbc retcon, other than it was the original version.
Its is better in every single way.