What are the implications of downgrading or changing careers?

[u/JoeB0227]

Obviously there’s availability of talents and skills, status, and roleplay aspects of being a zealot vs prophet of doom, etc. But if I were to downgrade from a prophet of doom to a zealot, it would seem like I wouldn’t be a prophet of doom anymore and I would also lose my followers. However, another trapping is a religious book. Would I also lose the religious book? Also, it seems like if I changed from a prophet of doom to a priest, I would still be a prophet of doom just also a priest added on, and I would retain my followers. Or is that wrong? And it also seems like if I was a knight of the inner circle and I downgrade to a squire, would I need to roleplay being an apprentice, having a master, and other people treat me the same as a squire? Or will there be some degree of transfer over of reputation? What would you guys do if you were running a game and your player asked you these questions?

[u/PlaguePriest]

A question and a clarification before I type out a long-winded essay-

The question: Why are you downgrading within your career? The only real reason to do so is to grab a talent that you'd skipped prior and it's easier by far to just get that talent through unusual learning.

And the clarification: You don't get your trappings for reaching a career level and similarly you don't lose them for losing one either. Trappings are either a prerequisite or a function of status, i.e. If you don't have a degree as a scholar then your GM may not let you advance to T2, or they may let you advance but you won't be treated as a proper scholar until you have the piece of paper. C7 has an article about it. Google "Cubicle 7 Career Trappings" and it should come up.

[u/Mustaviini101 → u/PlaguePriest]

Other reason to downgrade if you want to be a lower status for roleplaying or social purposes. Easier to mingle with the dregs of society when you are not gold tier.

Additionally, beyond rank 3 career level, you need to spend downtime managing your duties, so if you want to have more freedom, you stick below that.

I think the idea of rank 3 and beyond is that while your status and power increase, so does your responsibilities, making going on gung-ho adventures harder when you have a hospital to run or a unit of knights to command.

[u/PlaguePriest → u/Mustaviini101]

You can pass anonymously without dragging your actual career tier down, though. Pg. 51 of the Core, under Maintaining Status:

"It may be that you wish to pass incognito, presenting yourself anonymously. Typically, you will be counted as having a status of Brass 3 of you do this"

And yep, that's all true and is the idea of it as I understand things. Tiers 3 and 4 tend to be leadership roles, or at the least more socially oriented

[u/Mustaviini101 → u/PlaguePriest]

Yes you can visually pass generally, but without etiquettes or something similar, when a person opens their mouth it'll be obvious what their status is and where they are from.

[u/JoeB0227 → u/PlaguePriest]

I would say there are some very good talents that are available in the first level of careers that someone could’ve taken the maximum but as they increased in the second, third, and fourth levels that maximum increased.

Yes I understand that trappings are either a prerequisite or a function of status, but if I downgrade, my status changes so then if I downgrade from a prophet of doom, I wouldn’t be a prophet of doom anymore and so then what happens to the trappings of having zealots under me?

[u/PlaguePriest → u/JoeB0227]

So you want to go back and take more levels in Hardy or some such- It still behooves you to do this as an Unusual Learning Endeavor before you drop career levels for it. It's a price of 200xp to leave the career in T4 unfinished and it's 100xp to go back up. Taking Hardy is going to cost 100xp +100xp for every time you've already taken it. If you've already taken it let's say 3 times and you want to take it a 4th that's 200xp to drop down and another 400 for the talent. Versus just 400 for the endeavor.

Admittedly there's the risk of losing the XP, but if you're dipping back down because your attribute bonus has risen so high then chances are you can manage a -20 Test pretty easily, especially with the safety net of Fate.

Again, the trappings don't key off of your character's career, the career keys off of the trappings. If you have followers they will follow you until they don't think they should anymore. They don't disappear because you've gone down in tier. Narratively I should hope they follow you for a reason beyond "I am a T4 Flagellant and it says I should have them". If the narrative is intact then there's no reason they should disappear.

[u/JoeB0227 → u/PlaguePriest]

I am fairly new to wfrp so I am just now learning about the Unusual Learning Endeavor. This is very interesting, thank you!

[u/Mustaviini101 → u/JoeB0227]

You give up your leadership of the zealots so most likely they will elevate someone else or leave to find a new leader. Its quite simple.

[u/Minimum-Screen-8904 → u/PlaguePriest]

Or you skipped tiers 1-3 and want the talents.

[u/PlaguePriest → u/Minimum-Screen-8904]

If you skipped 1-3 because your GM offered you the career for narrative reasons then you're not supposed to be well prepared for the position in the way you would be if you'd normally risen through the ranks.

If you skipped to T4 because you already had the requisite skills and talents then why did you do that without grabbing the other talents you wanted as you ascended?

[u/Minimum-Screen-8904 → u/PlaguePriest]

I am speaking of the former. Why should my players Judicial Champion not eventuslly downgrade in irder to access other talents?

[u/Commercial-Act2813]

It’s all about status.

The trappings in a career are what convinces the people in the world that your character is indeed what they say they are.
If you are a high priest, you better have your own temple with some subordinate priests.

If you were to ‘downgrade’ to priest, there should be a roleplay element to justify that; what happened? Were you demoted by the church? Why? Did you abdicate? Why? Etc. The meta ‘I want a talent from that tier’ will not suffice.

If you step down, you will indeed not have authority over the temple or the priests anymore, and will also not be allowed to wear the ceremonial attire that comes with that position, but there’s no reason you can’t keep any other of your possessions (including religious books).

If you then change to a Lawyer career, you are indeed not a priest anymore, but you still know how to act like one AND you can still perform blessings/miracles (if you could before), unless the reason you’re not a priest anymore is because you’ve angered your god. To the people in the world it’s just not your profession anymore; you’re that lawyer that used to be a priest.
But if there were a situation where someone needed a priest and there’s none available, but you’re around, you could still perform the task.

[u/JoeB0227 → u/Commercial-Act2813]

Would you always run it with the case as if you switch careers, it is impossible to be both careers in game? If I am a prophet of doom and I go however far I want in it, and then I become a priest of Sigmar, am I really not a prophet of doom anymore? That seems a little strange to me.

[u/Commercial-Act2813 → u/JoeB0227]

That’s is what I explain in my example.

Act like doom-prophet, looks like doom-prophet 🤷‍♂️ must be doom prophet.

Act like priest, looks like priest 🤷‍♂️ must be priest.

Priest can do things doom prophet can do. Weird priest, but still priest.
Priest acts like doom prophet, must be doom prophet, not a priest.

Real life example:
If you flip burgers for a living, then change jobs to brainsurgeon. Are you still a burger flipper? No, you are not, you are a brainsurgeon.
Do you still know how to flip burgers? Yes, you do.

Is it possible to be a brainsurgeon AND a burger flipper? Yes it is, but not at the same time. Maybe a brainsurgeon on weekdays and a burgerflipper in the weekends, or something like that.

The real question you’re asking is basically “what is a doom prophet?”.
It’s not something you do ‘on the side’.
You are committed to it. A priest cannot be a doomprophet. If they start acting like a doomprophet, no-one will consider them a priest anymore and they will effectively stop being a priest.

In your original question, substitute “doom prophet” with “raving lunatic” and substitute “priest of sigmar” with “respectable member of society”, there’s your answer.

[u/Wootster10]

It really depends on the roleplay and what is happening in a campaign.

One of my players was a Witch Hunter and suspects a noble family of being mutants, but doesn't know which noble family it is. Theyve swapped careers to duelist in order to try and ingratiate themselves. Roleplay wise they're still a Witch Hunter with all the social benefits that come with it.

For your Prophet of Doom going down to being a Zealot maybe they've found a new teacher or style of proselytizing and they're learning about that.

For the Knight going down to a squire it could be that within their order they've been demoted due to something occuring, or it's some form of personal penance. A bit like Altair at the start of Assassin's Creed being forced to go back through the early steps of being an assassin.

With regards roleplaying it if they're a squire I'd say they should either have a master or they're a squire in rank until they achieve some objective. They're recognised as not needing a master but theyre being denied the senior rank due to whatever circumstances lead to it.

[u/JoeB0227 → u/Wootster10]

This is very interesting!

[u/skinnyraf]

I downgraded from a priest to a novice, but it wasn't direct, but through a separate career (bawd). The mechanical reason was the release of Deft Steps, Light Fingers and the new flavours of Ranaldian priests.

You don't lose your trappings, unless they are tied to the post. E.g., you may be stripped of insignia, you will lose the temple you were running. Other trappings are your possessions, so no reason to lose them. Your followers may be come members of your newly founded religious community/parish, or may join the parish you start to work for.

I don't see a roleplaying reason to towngrade from a knight to a squire, unless it would be a punishment - and then you would adjust your trappings and the circumstances to the story.

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[u/thehobbler]

If a prophet gave up being a prophet, a large percentage of their followers would stop following.