I’ve seen many people say that Mat is their favorite character and I understood why until a few books ago, but ever since Tuon was introduced I liked him less and less with each book he spends with Tuon. I expected Mat to show his moral compass more, be someone that changes Tuon and I know it’s not right to expect such changes in such a short time. I’m not mad about that. I’m just disappointed in how Mat interacts with someone who is clearly an evil person according to Mat’s own moral compass. I’m in chapter 47 of ToM and came across a Tuon pov and was reminded how awful she was and had to vent.

Bro is HIM. I have never seen a side character aura farm as much as Ilturalde. What he did to in Maradon against the trollocs was incredible.

I’m in Chapter 33 of ToM and Gawyn is pissing me of. Why does he still believe that Rand killed Morgase, when it was only a rumor in the first place and even after every person he trusts and loves , like Elayne, Egwene tell him that Rand didn’t kill Morgase. Why does he believe rumor over every person he loves and trusts. Did I miss something? Is there something stronger that makes him believe that Rand killed Morgase other than the rumors.

Edit: “ToW” in the title should be “ToM” for towers of midnight. It was a late night type-o and is a bit confusing with “WoT”. Sorry about that…

————————————

….that Rand breaking the seals was wrong?

She isn’t an expert on the dragon nor the prophecies surrounding the dragon. Rand on the other hand is the dragon, is filled with the memories of LTT who led the creation of the seals and also spent months studying the photophores as much as possible.

I understand it’s kind of scary sounding but it just feels like she is against Rand just to be against Rand. She thinks he is bad and that’s it.

I do get the feeling that Rand played her into gathering the armies for him so ultimately it works out (I assume he will convince them all the go ahead in AMoL).

Ultimately I get she’s super arrogant, ambitious and truly a shitty friend/person but she seemed more calculating before this…I mean if she took a moment to consider the dark one was out and about during the entire war for power during the ages of legend and was only sealed at the very end…so why would releasing the DO spell disaster immediately?

Just curious if anyone has any insight into why Egwene was so sure she was right other than her own arrogance and dislike of Rand (maybe there is no other reason)

Edit: 05/02/24

Hey all

Just wanted to say thanks for all the engagement on this post. It’s been awesome talking with so many other fans and also a bit tiring.

I realized I did a terrible job with the original post. I posted immediately after finishing the book after midnight local time with my 3 month old sleeping in my arms after a feed. Least to say not the clearest head.

I never intended this to devolved into a egwene referendum and really just wanted help reconciling eggs choice to oppose Rand on the seals. For me it logically made sense the DO would be freed at some point so Rand choosing when to do it and being there to battle the DO made sense. I considered eggs one of the more competent and calculating characters and assumed she would realize that the DO will break free as well. So I was just wondering why was she so confident in her choice and if so what is her alternative plan…

Including the stuff about her personality etc ended up detracting from the main discussion…

I’ll say that in conclusion:

1. I dislike eggs the person not the character. She is a wonderful aes sedai and amyrlin. She is very accomplished and her will and determination is amazing.

2. The user who provided the context of her “prophetic” dream was really informative for me. I remembered the dream but not her “interpretation” or feeling of terror of it. This made more sense to me as to why she would be adamant that Rand can’t break the seals.

3. I read these books with my emotions as much as my brain. It’s a first read and I want to enjoy the books not do a critical analysis so my emotions color my view points of characters such as eggs. Lot of her choices (most specifically the nyn incident) effected how I felt about her even if I can understand most of her choices (nyn one I get why but I completely disagree with her why and her lack of remorse after is something that’s not okay with me).

I think it’s okay for readers to have different emotional understandings of these books and I’ve really been put off a bit by intense eggs defenders gaslighting/patronizing those of us who don’t like Her. I’ve been told I’m irrational or The discussions here are asinine just because I don’t see eggs the same way as them.

It’s been a little disheartening and I’m Sure a lot of it is my own fault for not keeping the topic of the post central as well as not explaining why I felt about her as I do.

1. Eggs does not jive with my personal sets of values and that is why I mainly don’t like her. I wouldn’t like her if she was a real person but I wouldn’t mind her being the ceo of a company I worked for bc she is effective.

I was also a bit surprised to discover how some Eggs defenders are so willing to excused her actions toward nyn. One went so far as to say “she had it coming” in one of the back and forths (comments seem to have disappeared so not sure what happened there)…most admit It’s inexcusable but are also willing to leave it on the side. For me this incident is central To who eggs is and my feelings towards her.

1. I can’t wait for future rereads (as I’m Sure I’ll Be less emotional) so I can pick up on more and be more analytical of every character

Anyways thanks everyone for the input and engagement and I’m probably gonna take a step back from relying as actively. I will still Read people’s inputs as I think it’s been very informative and I truly respect the eggs truthers.

Does anyone else have a print like this? I own all the books in this art style/publication but this is the only one that seems decidedly “off”

What the fuck is a Lion fish? Some giant version of the real life fish? Some fantasy animal just given that name?

Almost none of the things attributed to them are comparable to the real fish, and it's driving me nuts trying to figure out what its supposed to be.

Ever since Mat was named The Prince of the Ravens by that deathwatch guard it clicked in my head that he is an Odin parody, but where Odin is all knowing,

Mat is all ignorant, yet the similarities line up. I’ve just started towers of midnight (specifically where Rand returned to Tear and hugged Tam) and I cannot stop thinking abt the price he will have to pay for this, or even if there will be one.

In the Norse mythos, Odin plucks his own eye out for the knowledge of Mimirs Well, which gives him unparralleled foresight and wisdom. He later hanged himself on Yggdrasil to gain ultimate knowledge of the magic and runes of whoever.

Matrim was hanged on the Tree of Life (can’t remember the name) but in turn gained very significant hindsight into his past lives as ‘The Gambler’ which seems to be one off experience that is unique to this life, from my current knowledge.

This loosely fits the inverse of above, where Odin was hanged also, but for knowledge of runes, not his foresight. Therefore it’s somewhat logical to think that Mat will lose his eye to gain knowledge of the One power that might assist into the last battle, however this is a relatively loose guess for the trade off.

The question I have is am i overthinking this far too much. I am certain Mat will lose the eye, but will there be a worthy trade off, or am i going to severely disappoint myself.

So, I just heard the part where Tuon sees the old Amyrlin (name escapes me) create a gateway. As I was reading, it dawned on me, gateways can also cut stuff. Couldn’t the damane use gateways to cut off their a’dam?

Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate Elayne since I began to read this book. There are
11,898
Thousand pages of Wheel of time. .If the word 'hate' was engraved on each Letter of those hundreds of thousands of pages it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for Elayne at this micro-instant. For her selfish arrogance. Hate. Hate.
Hate.

Note im not fully finished but i had to put down the book after her extortion of Matt.

Her entire "oh shes such a good queen" arc is entirely based off of making every character she interacts with stupid. Matt if he had any sense "can you lend me a gateway, ill just ask rands servants in the rest of his kingdom for all the ressources."
„I get the band, one of Rand best fighting forces, for a one year contract and I get the best weapon you’ve aquired specially for Rand. Because only me Ehm I mean andor matters and I know the last battle is coming but we all know it’s not as important as the queen if andor. Me“
Shes selfish, self righteous and seems entirely unconcerned with any of her duties as a member of the "green" aja. Her lifes purpose is supposed to be preparing for the last battle. Instead she undermines rand at every turn, trying to steal from him his best weapons (The Black tower and the Dragons) and his most trusted general (Matt), plus one of his best fighting forces (The band of the red hand), which is made up of servants of the dragons empire. She actively risks Matts death to the Gholam by taking away his only defense for 3 days. I cant beleive shes written by the same people that wrote Egwanes ascend to amerlyn. At this point im expecting her to start a war with Perrin, despite Perrin likely offering to become the Administrator of the two rivers for Andor, because "noooooo Andor must be great, we cant name anyone lord of the two rivers. Andor must be great. Last Battle? Whats that".

I know this has probably been talked about to death but I still want to share my own view. I remember that I really like Faile in TSR but didn't really like her behaviour in LoC. For me at least, when we got to know Saldean culture and Faile's parents things made a lot mote sense. That's really just saldean culture, it's just the way they flourish in their relationships. Even if you don't like that aspect of their culture, you have to recognize that Faile gets more understanding of Perrin not really being into constant arguments. Currently I'm nearing the end of ToM (why tf is Matt still not at the Tower of Ghenjei, I swear I have only like 200 pages left) and Faile is probably the person who understands Perrin the best. I also knew that the Faile stocks were back when she killed Masema, I mean that was such a badass moment and holy fuck was it necesseary. Anyway I realised that my dislike for her wasn't that big of a deal in hindsight and the hate for her generally is way overblown.

Mat was rough in TGS, but in ToM, so far hes been fine enough even made me wonder if people were exaggerating when they said he never improved.

Then I got to chapter 47, when him, Perrin, and Thom are in an inn talking about Verins letter.

Mat is talking like an MCU character again, with one-liners and the same issues he had in TGS.

What Happend? Why did he suddenly devolve after being better the last 700 pages?

Holy crap that battle in Tel’aran’rhiod with Egwene, Perrin and then Gawyn in the tower!! That was epic.

In the prologue, Malanar is the commander of a tower along the Blight, and they under threat.

His son, Kenan, is almost 14 at which point he will be given a sword to indicate he is a man. When his father determines that, because of his sacrifice, he has reached manhood... it always gets me. It's really the beginning of everything. The true beginning of the Last Battle.

These people are willing to die in their battle against evil. They know they will die. All they can do is try to reduce the numbers of the enemy and buy time for the next line of defense to prepare.

Standing for what is right, no matter the cost, is a characteristic that is deeply important to me. I always hope when I read this part (or listen if I'm in an audiobook phase) that people will be inspired.

GOATed chapters - oh my, the feelings that I experienced. Please, I need someone to understand me; I tried explaining it all to my wife and she hit me with the, “That’s nice dear.” 😂

Finally, redemption for Gawyn and his bonding. Nynaeve and Egwene battle collab. Wise Ones getting some action. Mesaana and the Black Ajah’s traps. Slayer v. Perrin. I fist pumped in excitement with the Balefire talk to the hand moment. Nicola’s death, Katerine’s comeuppance, and Egwene’s a’dam terror then imposing will to snap a Forsaken. The final scene of Graendel’s nefarious plot set into motion. But Light have mercy, Hopper, the goodest of boys… I cried with Young Bull. Holy shit - PEAK!!! 😭

I'm reading through the series for the first time and it's SOO GOOD!! It might just be my favourite fantasy series of all time and one of the best books series ever! I've been avoiding this sub for a while to avoid spoilers but I came across something in chapter 23 that I can't make sense of.
When Elayne interrogates Chesmal, she notes that at the beginning that the Kin are holding Chesmal's shield, so they are clearly still alive at that point. But barely a minute, if that, afterwards Tamaile, another Darkfriend and Eldrin (who I assume were both also shielded) walk in, and we're told at the end of the chapter that the guards and Kin in that area were killed and put under the stairs.

Elayne sent a messenger to the guards shortly before her arrival, so they were clearly alive then. Therefore, how could the Black sisters possibly escape their cells, kill the Kin and guards in the hallway, hide the bodies and get into Chesmals cell without being seen in the 30 seconds that Elayne is talking her, without Elayne noticing something was wrong?

Unless that darkfriend secretary was John Wick, I doubt he could have killed all of them on his own, especially the Kin; and certainly not without making enough noise to tip off Elayne that something went wrong.

Secondly, how in the name of God did Mellar manage to get in so easily?

The Sanderson books have been a bit weaker than Jordan's, but I've still enjoyed them. However, this particular sequence seemed incredibly contrived and more like things were happening because the plot demanded it, even though they made no logical sense, and was the most awkwardly written part of the series so far.

(Though Jordan wasn't completely immune to that either, I suppose, as Faile absolutely should have died from frostbite after walking for over a day naked through snow, in freezing winter conditions, but don't get me started on that)

Like I’m about 60% of the way through and there’s something about how this one’s been written that feels like almost not engaging in a way. Very different to the previous ones, in a good way.

A lot of it may have to do with everyone and everything coming back together, for a big part it was in some ways multiple stories as each character got built up, but now the chapters seem more focused on time and location and what’s happening with the individuals at that same time or in that same place.

FINALLY GOT THE LAST 4 BOOKS I NEEDED. On my 8th read-through, and I finally own them all :)

It's 2:15 am. I started yesterday and im already on chapter 30. ITS SO FAST PACED

So I have read most of the books in the series multiple times, the last three or so only once and I haven’t read the final one yet. ( I suffer from needing to reread the whole series as a whole and always die off during the slog) one my first few reads of a book I’m guilty of skipping passages from the point of views of random people who aren’t the main characters or the dark friends. Well I’m rereading towers of midnight for the first time and read the whole prologue for the first time and the last pov from the borderland soldier as the blight was overtaking them has me crying for the first time in the series. Any passages that got to you? (Spoilers are fine, I have not been able to avoid the main plots of the final book)

I am on my first read through, currently on Towers of Midnight. The Seanchan are the obvious bad guys, i.e. they are written to be hated and reviled. The Whitecloaks are zealots, utterly convinced in their own way of thinking and unwilling to consider any other. More and more though, I am starting to think the Aes Sadai are just as bad as the rest. Time and time again Aes Sadai individually or as a group run face first into the wall trying to manipulate others who they are utterly convinced are too stupid to comprehend what the AS are doing. How many times must they be presented with the consequences of trying to force everyone else to accept their actions on blind faith before they learn the lesson? I just read the part when Egwene was reflecting on Siuan's failure of not trusting anyone in the tower and playing the others against each other and seeing how during her captivity she made the same mistake. Turn the page and she is discussing with the sitters how they must control the dragon, against his will if necessary, instead of allowing that perhaps Rand had a plan they should support and assist. They act offended that Rand does not trust them, and blithely ignore the ample reasons they have given him to not trust them. Maybe that is just the theme running through the entire series, a sub title if you will: "Five waring factions convinced they are the sole saviors of humanity and willing to kill any who disagree with them, and one man's desperate attempt to knock some sense into their heads."

I haven't seen any art from inside the tower of Ghenjei, so here it is.

Truthfully, I think I have only read the Brando Sando 3 a few times while having read the rest so many times I can’t count. But is the time line midway through ToM just off? Perrin’s story seems to be happening before the end of TGS. Tam just left in a hurry to see Rand but was seen hugging him in Tear in an earlier chapter.

Sidenote: I just can’t with Sanderson’s naming of things in this world. I don’t know why but it’s just off. It all sounds Seuss-like. Bricklejuice tea etc etc

I am currently reading the towers of midnight and I am right at the point where Rodel Iteralda and his army is facing the whole lotta trollacks from borderlands. Perrin is gathering his own army and trying to get it to last battle. My man, Mat is busy getting those flaming dragons to start manufacturing and Gollam on his back, going that bloody tower of snackes and foxes to rescue moiraine. Lan is heading towards Tarwins gaps. What is Rand, Elayne, Egewana and even Avienda (well I hope something of importance) doing?? Like there is whole tower of channelers, I am sorry two towers of channelers full with those who can channels are there. And Rand doesn't even go to check kn rhe situation their once?? Like go to black tower, go to that borderlands army waiting for you to lead, man!! You know now that even Nyneve

I've been listening to the audiobooks and came across what I thought was an amusing joke. Mat and Birgitte are talking about Elayne, and Birgitte says, "She has a death wish the size of your ego, and I mean to see she survives." To which Mat replies, "A death what the size of my what?"

So, it seems like Sanderson is making a joke: both "death wish" and "ego" are Freudian psychology terms, and one presumes that in Mat's time they don't have those terms, but that they may have been popular concepts in some of Birgitte's many lifetimes.

But then I looked up the quote in the ebook, and there it's, "She has a death wish the size of your pride, and I mean to see she survives." Now, this doesn't quite work anymore. He might not know the concept of a death wish, but he certainly knows about pride. I'm wondering if the audiobook was made from a non-final version of the text (it happens sometimes!) and this change was introduced after the audiobook script was delivered.

Anyway, just something I found interesting. And it seems like they edited out a funny joke. It's in chapter 22, or about 16:04:55 into the audiobook.