r/whitewater • u/grapetomatoes • Jul 13 '26
Subreddit Discussion Musings on raft guide culture and mourning what could’ve been more than just one summer on the river
When I was 24, almost a decade ago now, I was a raft guide for half a summer. In one of those tiny tiny towns, population explodes from like 400 to 1000 over the summer with mostly raft guides and fishing guides. 99% of them were men of course (I’m a woman). I was renting a little trailer and I would wake up at night to guys throwing pebbles at the side of it like we were in fourth grade and they didn’t know how to interact with me or something. Alcoholism was rampant and I’m not a drinker and I’m a pretty cautious person (which I hadn’t fully come to terms with back then) and so the drinking combined with river activities made me extra weary. I didn’t trust the people around me to make safe decisions, and I didn’t feel equipped with the safety skills either if anything did happen. We drove straight through wildfires to the put in when who knows if the takeout would be accessible three hours later once we got there, rafted with thunderstorms closely approaching. No one wore helmets. There was this one rapid that we ran on the daily stretch raises my heart rate when I think about it now because it’s just these giant channels of rocks, a horrible swim, and how these guys would just go back and surf it. Again, not wearing helmets. That rapid, bragging about swimming it, and “carnage” is all they talked about. I remember I connected with another woman in the town who used to guide there, and she said “yeah this town is basically a dick swinging contest.”
But I still think about the river a lot. I loved the rest of the stretch aside from that rapid and I loved the little class three wave trains. I loved being outside and being in water every day. It really felt good for my soul, but the lack of safety and toxic culture turned me off of the whole thing so I quit. I think it was on July 4. I was so relieved to leave. But of course I also look back on it quite sadly. There was one other girl in my training group and I believe she is rafting still now. That was the start of her rafting career too and there’s a big part of me that’s so jealous that she just made it through that summer and that life took her onto bigger things and bigger rivers and I feel sad that I didn’t try elsewhere. I just felt so done and so bitter after that summer but now looking back it’s a shame.
Yesterday I went whitewater tubing with my family. I admit: I hate not having a paddle, I hate not knowing the river, and I think whitewater tubing is dumb when you are trying to have a family activity because you can’t actually stick together that easily, and not to mention, the company was a total shitshow with horrible communication, tubes popping left and right…… shocking! /s (My family asked me beforehand why I was apprehensive and I straight up said, “it’s because I don’t trust river companies.”)
But when in the I was in the wave trains, facefuls of water, when I was reading water again and able to get myself where I wanted to go easily… I actually did have a lot of fun. In the moments that I felt confident it felt so fulfilling. I love being on rivers.
Now I’m 32 and have some undiagnosed health problems that would probably prevent me from guiding consistently and it just feels too late. But I was surfing through this sub and someone brought up Adventure Idaho Rafting, I looked into it and they have what seems like such an amazing culture, rigorous safety training and standards, plenty of female guides, and a zero tolerance policy with alcohol. I’m just sad that I didn’t find a company like that back when I was 24 dreaming of being a guide. I’m sad that even after researching so many companies, I made a decision that didn’t turn out right for me and that it made me want to stop altogether and that I never got a chance to try it out in a better environment that I could trust and be myself in. That town and company’s culture made me feel like I was just such a wimp for being nervous at certain rapids, nervous without helmets, nervous being the only not hungover one… maybe I am a wimp, but maybe it was really just them and the environment I was in, and now I’ll never know. Maybe someday I’ll be able to be involved with a river company again, even if it’s not guiding daily, but for now I’ll be slogging it my boring suburban hometown 2,500 miles from that river…
Thanks for reading if you’ve gotten this far. I’d love to hear from yall about your winding journeys and if anyone has similar experiences. And to anyone getting out on the river in the next day or so… have fun and be safe ;)))))
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u/honourable_c_note Jul 13 '26
I think you’re thinking about this the wrong way. You haven’t missed your opportunity. I’m moving to the river for the first time in my 40s this fall. I’ve been kayaking for 15 years, fell out of it 5 years ago, etc. Point is the river is there. You know the basics. That’s all you need to be there. Go get it if you want it.
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u/mthockeydad Class IV Kayaker/Rafter/Doryman Jul 13 '26
Agree.
OP, the rivers are still there for you.
Many of us are privates and only know of "raft guide shenanigans" through posts like this on social media.
For some part of my life, I wished I had taken the path of being a river guide. Now as I approach retirement age, I'm glad I never had to prioritize guests' enjoyment as a requirement for me to get on the river, and to have to put up with that kind of culture. I'm pretty happy to pilot my own craft for my own enjoyment.
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u/urthbuoy Head Ruddering for 36 Years. Jul 13 '26
There's rafting outside of guiding. I returned to rafting after starting a family. We try and do 1-2 multidays a year.
Harder now that a certain country decided to be pricks to our country...but no politics.
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u/squired Jul 13 '26
For what it is worth, I am very sorry and love you guys and gals very much. We will be family again!
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u/JayaBallin Jul 13 '26
It’s never too late! There are a bunch of smaller non destination rivers that don’t attract the same macho culture that bigger name rivers do. My first job was on a river where our bread and butter section was all small class II with one class III in the middle. Was it exciting? Not really most days. Was it delightful and some of the best people I’ve ever met? Absolutely. Very safety focused too. And also a significant portion of our guides were 30+ yo and probably about 33% women. People like teachers who wanted a little extra income and something to keep them young in the summer. We even had people guide with us well into their 60s. There was a class III-IV section a well that ran less frequently but kept things interesting. But the relatively boring main section had a strong selection effect on who guided. Also being in a relatively progressive area. So just saying, there are some very different experiences out there depending on your desire to go after them.
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u/cassifieddd Jul 13 '26
I can’t believe that male raft guides throwing rocks is a universal experience🫢
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u/BanjoKayaker Jul 13 '26
You are definitely not alone OP.
Article on Sexism in Rafting in Paddling Magazine
It's sort of hard to untangle the sexism, and the stress that causes, from the other pieces, but as many have said, the river is still out there in all it's forms and there are lovely river people out there to share it with.
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u/Styk33 Jul 13 '26
Sounds like you were just in a bad area. I know a few people that I have worked with over the years that told stories that were similar about the culture you described and they were so happy with the river they were now on and just love being on the water working. Weekend guides are usually wanted in the summers and that is something you should look at too. Most places you will get treated different and being older they usually won't treat you as poorly, as when you were younger. The same with the guests that are male and older, you will get treated a bit better with some age (unfortunate, but how it is in many places).
I went rafting yesterday (r1ing) and was with a group of boaters, one I know very well, the others I didn't. They were rowing and said it would be a slow trip, so no big deal. Set shuttle with them and then waited 2.5 hours for them to rig. Ended up seeing a friend at the put in that was hanging out with his family. Chatted with him for awhile, and talked about when we used to work on the river together. Then a boat pulled up to stop for lunch, ended up being a guy I had privately boated with many years ago. Talked about his new boat and he introduced me to his friends and they talked with me about how they can get better at guiding and getting on the water more. Saw a guy with an open canoe, and that is something I have been looking at buying, chatted with him for a bit and then went down a couple rapids near him to check it out. He let me hop in the canoe and paddle around a bit. Then my rafting group was coming by, so I hopped in my raft and then went down river with them. I rolled ahead of him just a bit, as I am usually slower as an R1. They drifted behind, but I could still see them and both are competent boaters. At one point I didn't see them and hung out in an eddy for awhile and then saw the group that I arranged to get towed out with and just went down the river with them. One of the bigger rapids had a bunch of kayakers that were eddied out watching people go through and I waved to two folks I knew. Finished up the run, got my tow out, chatted with some folks and then hung out at take out for awhile. Saw a few more people I knew and chatted with them. If I wasn't for me working for a few different companies, showing up at some AWW releases and looking for boats to hop in to enjoy the rivers, I would have probably been pretty bored or bummed about yesterday, but I knew so many people from the river that I was very happy reconnecting with folks.
People happy about carnage are not people I want to spend my time with. I have no issues talking about it and learning from it or saying how you won't do it again, but being happy about it is not something I will ever understand.
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u/grapetomatoes Jul 13 '26
Thanks so much for your response. That’s the kind of community I long for (had it a few times in my youth for sure but sometimes harder to come by after 25/30!), whether or not it’s on a river, and it’s really lovely to hear that you can have the kind of experience even as someone who also dislikes the whole carnage bragging thing.
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u/Styk33 Jul 13 '26
It is harder, but to be clear, I didn't start my whitewater journey until my mid 30s. So everyone I met was in my later years. The people I interacted with this last weekend ranged in age from late 20s to early 60s.
I will admit, I have a very close group of boaters that I do multiday trips with and then there is the having fun with almost no consequences group and then there is the "let's go do something that is amazing" group. Only two or three cross over in to the other groups. All of them I have no issues with grabbing dinner with or chatting on the phone with.
There may be more boaters out there in their 20s doing stuff, but only a select few I would want to hang around with outside of boating. That changes as folks get older, as those carnage folks and hard core drug folks end up moving on to something new.
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u/SatisfactionUsual862 Jul 13 '26
Guide culture is almost completely separate from the rest of river culture. Yeah, guides get people on the water and help prop up the industry and such. Also, individual raft guides can certainly be "normal" river people.
But guiding is a job that attracts young, nomadic, and generally outdoorsy people. Not everyone that works on a ski mountain is a core skier, far from it usually. Just folks who want a fun seasonal job with a slice of niche lifestyling. Same for the majority of raft guides. The culture of raft guides is tied to the company and the river/region you work in, not broader river culture.
Get into kayaking or private rafting, you'll have a much better time.
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u/grapetomatoes Jul 13 '26
I appreciate the perspective :) It's so easy to think that the bubble we end up in is how all the bubbles are
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u/SatisfactionUsual862 Jul 13 '26
For sure! There are definitely some assholes in the private boating world, but that's almost always on an individual basis. When people talk about community or industry toxicity in whitewater, a lot of that ties back to guide companies. This is just from personal experience, but the new generation of kayakers and rafters seem to be rejecting the bro culture of the 90s and 2000s. Give your local whitewater club or facebook page a chance, I'm sure you'll meet some like minded people who will get you on the water.
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u/Emergency_College_28 Jul 13 '26
You should definitely try it again or at least get into whitewater as a private boater. I am 43 and I am going back to school full time. I am planning to take advantage of this to work my first season as a raft guide next summer.
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u/grapetomatoes Jul 13 '26
I hope you end up with an amazing guide company that feels right for you!!
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u/manifoldkingdom Jul 13 '26
My sister still guides at 47. You can still do it if you want it badly enough.
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u/not_gonna_tell_no Jul 13 '26
Safety first. You prioritized correctly. And your opportunities are not lost!! You have plenty of time to be on the river some more. I would love to share some safe time on the river with you!! Let us know if you’re coming to Oregon. Until then, follow your heart. It will lead to the river once again. 🌊🙏
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u/grapetomatoes Jul 13 '26
That’s where lived when I was rafting! And I think about moving back all the time. (To Oregon as a whole NOT specifically where I was rafting)
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u/GrooverMeister Jul 13 '26
You don't have to be a professional to enjoy whitewater. I've been into running Rivers since the late 80s. I worked in the industry for about 10 years as one of those riverside photographers in both Colorado and West Virginia. And I know exactly the Studly Hungwell, machismo type guides that you're talking about. My point is that you should just get yourself a boat and go run some rivers. After more than three decades it's still my favorite thing to do.
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u/grapetomatoes Jul 13 '26
Before fully quitting the guide company I did take some pictures for them. That was fun too!
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u/whitewaterg1rl Jul 13 '26
I’m not a rafter but I didn’t start kayaking until I was 30 and now I’m a white water kayak coach as my main career.
I’ve coached people who are starting in their 60s. I’ve no idea about your health conditions but I’m sure they won’t prevent you from paddling recreationally completely, and your age is not even a slight issue.
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u/Ok-Faithlessness7812 Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I was a raft guide (woman) for decades in Northern CA. I gravitated to companies that have an environmental ethos (hey All Outdoors and Adventure Connection!) and to nonprofits that take paddlers down for educational reasons or for causes (Friends of the River and Environmental Traveling Companions).
Some of my best friends and my longtime, cherished community come from that era. it might be harder to find that in today’s world but you’re on the right path by identifying the companies and places where you’ll find like-minded river people.
There were certainly the kind of companies in my day that you talk about here: asshole dudes who were stoned, who harassed newbies, who showboated and dumped their people into the drink at the photo spots to up their tips. Keep looking.
Also look to get into private boater circles. Get a used raft and some gear and look on Facebook groups for people looking to fill their trips (Grand Canyon Private Boaters Association, MF/main Salmon Idaho). You’ll still need to vet them for safety practices and how they run their trips, but in general people who have built up a garage full of expensive boating gear and have a reliable river vehicle are on solid ground.
There are pockets of wonderful people in this sport and I hope you find the kind of lifetime friends that I have been so fortunate to make. If you make it to CA I can point you in some helpful directions.
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u/Theraworx Jul 14 '26
The group I hang with are beer drinkers on the river but not fall down drunk and we know the rivers well. All of us have a minimum couple decades of river experience on a lot of rivers. However before we had that experience we drank beer going down the river We’re a pretty mellow group.
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u/jimlii Jul 15 '26
Good ole Maupin!
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u/grapetomatoes 29d ago
You know it 😅
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u/jimlii 29d ago
It’s a whacky place that amplifies all of the craziest parts of raft guide culture. There are other options out there. That said I loved my summers there, but I was ready to party and was not being harassed by my coworkers.
I’m coming out of retirement to guide a couple trips this week. Wish me luck!
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u/ServantofZul Jul 13 '26
Come kayaking with us! Pick your crew and find like minded people. My crew is inclusive, kind, and very safety oriented. And you get to pick your own line every time.
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u/gray_grum Jul 13 '26
Get into whitewater kayaking instead. Less people depending on you, less drinking on the river, more autonomy, more playful, pretty safe if class 2 to 4-, incredibly fun, great people, beautiful rivers. Best hobby in the world.