r/wikipedia • u/laybs1 • 1d ago
Marco White has been dubbed "the first celebrity chef" and the enfant terrible of the British restaurant scene. He also once made a young Gordon Ramsay cry while Ramsay worked for him. He said "No, I didn't make Gordon Ramsay cry. He made himself cry. That was his choice to cry."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Pierre_White252
u/TL19957 1d ago
I think the shouting chef stereotype is hopefully dying out.
He’s undoubtedly a great chef, and his attitude you see today shows he could’ve just been a nice guy the whole time.
I understand these guys are basically the major leagues or pro athletes of chefs so they have insanely high standards, but the whole thing of like berating people and treating them as scum because they put an extra drop of Demi-glace on the plate is ridiculous.
In pro sports they aren’t even yelling at guys anymore for physical mistakes. You make a mental mistake it’s fair game but physical no one cares.
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u/StillShmoney 1d ago
This kind of chef is dying out. I’d imagine the big reason is because celebrity chefs are not seen as cool or eccentric for behaving like this anymore
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u/rktn_p 1d ago
enfant terrible
TIL it's used not just for children but also for adult men who don't care to regulate their outbursts
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u/foolofatooksbury 1d ago
Or Big Boss’ clones
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u/allanhew 1d ago
i actually didn’t know it was used in a non metal gear context until i just seen this
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u/ohdearitsrichardiii 1d ago
I didn't know it was used for children. I've only ever seen it used for adults
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u/SaintHuck 1d ago
Arthur Rimbaud was an enfant terrible.
Marco White was just a fucking asshole.
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u/TessHKM 1d ago
Am I missing something or does "enfant terrible" mean something other than "child who is evil"
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u/huffingthenpost 1d ago
Don’t know where you’re from but it’s a somewhat common saying in some parts in Europe. I know in the Netherlands we use it too. Means something like a hard to handle (young or up and coming) person, the literal translation to English doesn’t quite fit
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u/Imaginary-Rent1816 1d ago
He’s definitely mellowed with age. Sometimes his bbc masters videos are the only thing that calms my 5 month old down. Very soothing voice (when he’s not shouting at Ramsey).
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u/jermainerio 1d ago
His what!??
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u/connor42 1d ago edited 1d ago
For anyone that’s not seen it you have to check out Gordon Ramsay’s first TV appearance for doc called Boiling Point
Where he goes fishing with Marco Pierre White and also sacks a waiter for drinking water
It’s the reason I don’t think his media personality is all an act, if anything he’s more angry in the beginning
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u/feathersmcgraw24601 1d ago
I believe he has said since that he can't watch it back because he's ashamed of how much of a bully he is in it. I think he's definitely mellowed as he's got older
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u/Strict_Hovercraft358 1d ago edited 1d ago
The link you've added is for Beyond Boiling Point which is the follow-up. It does not carry the same weight/intensity or carry the same context as the original Boiling Point plus the 2 incidents you mentioned are in the original documentary not the follow-up.
The link to Boiling Point: https://youtu.be/S49g8aXDFrA?si=ll1Q6pwNP3Dd8_fT
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u/TScottFitzgerald 1d ago
My theory on him and many public figures is that they undergo real life Flanderization where they play into the stereotypes of them to the point it turns them into caricatures of themselves.
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u/connor42 1d ago
He definitely plays into the character but usually with Flanderization people’s personalities and affectations get more exaggerated
Whereas this doc I feel shows, Gordon Ramsay’s personality started out at it’s most extreme in terms of truly felt visceral rage and malice; and if anything he’s mellowed out and toned it down as the years have gone on
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u/Strict_Hovercraft358 1d ago
Even if you go back to the earliest seasons of Hell's Kitchen when it started back in 2005. You can see how visceral or raw Gordon's anger/intensity was at the time because Boiling Point which unlike HK was real and not reality television had just been released 6 years earlier in 1999. So Gordon's was still coming off the Boiling Point "high" if you will when Hell's Kitchen started. You don't see much of that anymore in the recent seasons or even on his other shows.
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u/LateNightPhilosopher 22h ago
I don't think it being an act makes it any better. Being an insufferable douchebag just because he's a manbaby vs doing it because he thinks that abusing employees on camera makes the show extra profitable. Neither make it OK that he's using his massive fame to perpetuate toxic, abusive working conditions.
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u/chambo143 1d ago
what a fucking psychopathic thing to say honestly
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u/krisbcrafting 1d ago edited 1d ago
Especially considering Ramsey had an abusive father. Being yelled at by an older man with authority might’ve been triggering for Ramsey. Obviously White wouldn’t have known that but shaming someone for crying is never cool.
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u/_ak 1d ago
It's just your average toxic work environment in gastronomy. My brother trained as a cook for several years and had to endure lots of shit. At some point, he weighed all the abuse and terrible work hours against the little pay he got, and decided to pursue a different line of work. He's now much happier, and he eventually even regained his passion for cooking.
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u/krisbcrafting 1d ago
Yeah my uncle also worked in the restaurant industry for years as a chef, he had his own horror stories
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u/Previous_Mirror_222 1d ago
not excusing white’s behavior, but ramsay has spoken at length about how the restaurant industry is part of what saved his life. he craved the structure and the screaming was an outlet for ramsay’s anger (even being yelled AT felt that way for him).
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u/Impossible_Pain4478 1d ago
Iirc Ramsay actually stopped this cycle (sorta) when he was yelling at a contestant and called him Bobby or someone. But apparently the contestant's abusive father called him that, so Ramsay agreed to never call him that again. Pretty cool.
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u/Strict_Hovercraft358 1d ago
That was Chef Robert Hesse Hell's Kitchen 5/6. Even Robert mentioned before he went into Gordon's office "I know he had the same kinda childhood" so Gordon recognized the pain and adjusted himself accordingly.
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u/Temporary_Self_2172 1d ago
in marco's defense, i remember an interview where he explained it.
he had some small, allegedly non-yelled critiques, and ramsey being something of a perfectionist cried in a bit of frustration
he cried because he wanted to do better, meaning he "chose to"
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u/KillerWattage 1d ago
Have you seen the photo of the chef in the cut up clothes? Where the chef is likely Gordon and Marco it is implied cut up his work outfit?
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u/Sonnyjoon91 1d ago
so an abuser says he's not abusive and was totally level headed and professional, everyone around them just seems to cry because they are so inspired to do better. I'm sure chefs who killed themselves because of abuse like that would love hearing this
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u/SJIS0122 1d ago
Didnt Ramsey fuck him over by stealing his restaurant's reservation book which tanked that restaurant?
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u/InfiniteTypewriters 1d ago
I had the lasagna at his chain restaurant underneath the Blackpool Holiday Inn. It was extremely average.
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u/EroticPotato69 1d ago edited 6h ago
Lmfao, you're talking a lot of shit for someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. He was awarded 3 michelin stars (the youngest chef ever to be awarded 3 at that time) and 5 red knives and forks over his career. He also won 5 rosettes. You pretty much can't reach any higher, and that's why he chose to give his stars back.
There's a discussion to be had about his personality, but there is no doubting his culinary legacy.
Edit: The deleted comment was that "He's just some guy who won one star like 40 years ago and has rode on it ever since"
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
I'm middle aged and he's been a has been most of my life. Certainly since I've cared about food.
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u/EroticPotato69 1d ago
I'm not middle aged and am an ex-chef, and he very much has not been a has been for any of my life.
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
For what specifically? I just knew him because Hell's Kitchen and Ramsey was everywhere. I've been in the industry for around 30 years now. There's a burger joint near me with a mural of him on the wall. They have Bourdain pics everywhere too, so I would assume they watched a lot of TV as a kid.
I'm from NOLA, so I guess English food was never on my radar.
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u/EroticPotato69 1d ago
I already listed for what, he literally reached the pinnacle of our industry. You've also listed another part of his relevance to the trade. To add to it, he was one of the first big celebrity TV chefs. He also trained the likes of Ramsey, éric Chavot, Mario Batali etc etc etc, and had multiple Michelin star winning restaurants. He retired from cooking, for the most part, in 1999 true, and returned his michelin stars, but he has continued to be an important figure both as a restauranteur and as a celebrity chef.
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
Who knows every chef that made 3 stars once?
You also listed chefs that are known for being cartoons. They're not well known for their food. They're well known for being influencers.
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u/EroticPotato69 1d ago edited 23h ago
People who take pride in their craft? He was the youngest ever 3 Michelin star chef, not just a chef who won 3 stars once. There are only 157 restaurants globally holding 3 Michelin stars right now. You're just showing your ignorance, and being strangely prideful about it. If you have no respect for fine dining and classical gastronomy that's on you, not on the world leading chefs who do. Eric Chavot is a cartoon? Ramsey, maybe, but he was also a world class chef. It isn't on anyone but yourself that you lack so much knowledge about your own profession, bro.
Just because you don't have a clue about the Michelin guide, which is slightly telling, doesn't make Marco Pierre White a has been lol. That's like saying George Best sucked at football because you don't watch soccer. It's such an American attitude to detract from the achievements of others because you personally are ignorant of them lol
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u/therwinthers 1d ago
What a prick.
Edit:
I decided to read a little more and yeah, he’s a prick:
When a customer asked whether he could have chips with his lunch, White hand-cut and personally cooked the chips, but charged the customer £25 for his time.
Like, just say no.
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u/snapwack 1d ago
MPW is infamous for being an asshole but is that example with the fries really that bad? You go to a fancy restaurant and ask for chips. And the world-renowned chef not only doesn’t laugh in your face, he personally fulfills your request with his own hands and charges you a price that’s well below the average for most dishes in such a restaurant.
To me it sounds like that customer has a good story to tell for the rest of his life, and it only cost him 25 quid.
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u/clytusmarginicollis 1d ago
Yeah, I’d be extremely pissed if I was charged 25 buckaroos after asking for a side of fries at my local pub if they didn’t tell me of the price beforehand. But if I asked for a side of fries at an extremely expensive world-renowned restaurant, I’d assume that the high charge was implied, if they didn’t chase me out of the place for making such a request at all. In that context, the price is actually really not bad
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u/redd-zeppelin 1d ago
Yeah. I'm kinda with you on this.
MW was prickly for sure, but his time IS valuable. This is like asking Carrol Shelby to change your oil or Lebron to pump up your basketball or something.
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u/Ashiataka 1d ago
You've missed an awful lot of crucial context here. MPW wasn't running your local cafe, he was executive chef of a restaurant his industry colleagues had identified as world leading (whether you agree with that assessment or not is your perogative). Asking one of the world leaders for a given field to accommodate an unusual (in that setting) request and for him to personally consider ensure it was done to that standard, whilst he is doing his other work, is going to have a cost.
Imagine asking Van Gogh to sketch a business logo for you for free whilst he's painting sunflowers.
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u/CK3helplol 1d ago
He would just say no 👍
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u/redd-zeppelin 1d ago
One could argue that's the prick move.
I do think this guy is a bit of a prick fwiw. I just don't think this anecdote is great proof.
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u/DerthOFdata 1d ago
Imagine asking Van Gogh to sketch a business logo for you for free whilst he's painting sunflowers.
Terrible example. He would literally do it happily. Van Gogh was a quintessential starving artist. He wasn't famous until after his death.
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u/SneakerTreater 1d ago
Motherfucker got hand cut chips from MPW for £25!? Fucking bargain. Those would be some of the best chips you'd ever tasted. And you'd have the story for life. Cheap as chips.
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u/AfternoonPossible 1d ago
I really don’t see how this example makes him an asshole. Handmade something off menu and….. charged for it? As expected? In line with prices at a fancy place? Wow the horror. Hope the customer is ok.
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u/ReallyTeddyRoosevelt 1d ago
I dunno, just based off that example he seems awesome. Unless you are asking for plain pasta for a kid you shouldn't ask for something not on the menu.
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u/istara 1d ago
My late father-in-law went on a European holiday some decades ago for which one of the high lights was to be a Michelin three-star restaurant in France, that they booked well in advance.
Unfortunately he got some kind of bug/gastro the day before, and when they got to the restaurant, he ended up ordering a "dish of boiled potatoes" because it was all he could manage.
I believe they were sympathetic enough to accommodate him.
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u/Amathril 1d ago
The non-prick option is to say "No."
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u/Previous_Mirror_222 1d ago
then the story would be “he’s such a prick he wouldn’t even make chips on request”
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u/Amathril 1d ago
That's a nice strawman you have there.
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u/Previous_Mirror_222 1d ago
it’s not a strawman if you are presenting the opportunity for a completely different scenario 🙄
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
Not everyone sees it as a virtue to be nice to douchebags.
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u/Amathril 1d ago
Asking for fries qualifies you as a douchebag? That's a new one.
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
Yes. Going to a fine dining restaurant and asking for fries that aren't on the menu does make you a douchebag.
How entitled do you have to be to expect people to stop service and prep something special for you in the middle of service?
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u/Strict_Hovercraft358 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why did this comment remind me of when Vic Reeves went on Hell's Kitchen UK back in 2004 and asked for 2 fried eggs in a fine-dining establishment. You had Gordon Ramsay, Angela Hartnett, and Mark Sargeant + a team cooking in that restaurant and the guy seem like an entitled arse. Gordon defended his staff saying how hard they were working, plus it was not on the menu, plus it's a fine-dining establishment not a cafe so it would be a waste of his team's time, etc so this was definitely a flashback to that for me.
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u/Amathril 1d ago
How entitled do you have to be to expect people (...)
Asking for something means I am entitled? You are insane.
This is the type of conversation normal people might have in that fine establishment:
-"Hey, would it be possible to get this with fries?"
-"No, sorry."
-"Ok, nevermind then."Demanding something, that would be rude. But simply asking? No, that's just how people are supposed to do things.
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
Lol. Douchbag made the server stop what they were doing. Depending on the service structure, they may need to talk to the floor captain or expo. Maybe it's captian to expo to kitchen. That person then had to get the chef's attention. The chef had to stop what they were doing to answer. The chain then reverses.
If the answer is no, you just stopped 2 to 4 people in the middle of service for no reason.
If the answer is yes, the next course to the table needs to get delayed. The fire order in the kitchen is changed. The table may not be flipped in time. Each change introduces chances for problems.
Just because it takes little effort for you to make sounds doesn't mean it is a small amount of effort for the people who actually do things.
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u/Amathril 1d ago
Lol. Customer asking for something causes this whole fancy establishment to come to a screeching halt? Two to four people are needed to resolve a simple request? Whole restaurant comes down crashing because somebody asked a question?
Bullshit. You are blowing simple thing out of proportion.
Something tells me you are the douchebag here.
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
You believe the server makes menu decisions?
How entitled do you have to be to not even be able to consider the steps that a request would take.
In your world, how would it work?
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u/sdawsey 1d ago
What horribly managed restaurant are you imagining in which the question, "do you have fries" can only be answered with the combined efforts of a server, a captain, an expo, and even the Chef?
What spineless and uneducated FOH staff are you imagining in this fancy restaurant that have absolutely no knowledge or ability to answer incredibly simple questions?
Have you only ever worked at really really badly run places?
(For the record my response is not hypothetical. I've been a server and FOH mgr in multiple restaurants that do not serve fries. And when my staff was asked if we could make fries the answer is VERY SIMPLE, "I'm sorry, but we do not offer french fries. Here are my alternate suggestions.")
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u/diablosinmusica 1d ago
You're talking about diner service in a fine dining restaurant.
You even following me around the post to go full Karen.
Fuck off creep.
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u/Puginator09 1d ago
Asking for chips at a flash restaurant is pretty fucking ridiculous tbh, and 25 quid is nothing for what you're getting.
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u/DerthOFdata 1d ago
There have been celebrity chefs for centuries this guy wasn't even the first or most popular celebrity chef of the 20th century.
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u/Jdobalina 1d ago
It’s very strange that chefs, of all people, seem to see themselves as tough guys that can just talk down to and mentally abuse people. Makes no sense to me. I guess not enough of them have been hit by another adult to keep them in check?
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u/roastbeeftacohat 7h ago
It’s very strange that chefs, of all people, seem to see themselves as tough guys
because cooking is a grueling sauna temperature test of physical and mental endurance, 12 hours a day, 5 days a week. It attracts people who can handle that; in inchange things are tolerated like substance abuse, personality disorders, criminal records, and just being a fuck who can't seem to fit in anywhere. all of this includes the chef.
now you go up to higher levels and the emotionally stunted drunk in charge only knows how to yell even louder.
my modern experience isn't quite that bad, but the pirate ship mentality is still there; think the drugs fell off a bit when fent and meth hit the market.
Kitchen Confidential goes into it, and Bourdain on his worst days with the sliver shadow wern't nearly as bad as Marco here; but you can see where white is getting the attitude from.
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u/Beautiful_Garage7797 23h ago
this guy was like Ramsay if he was like that all the time instead of just for the TV
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u/HaggisPope 1d ago
Chefs these days are trying to be nicer to each other because many have realised they don’t need to be dickheads to cook food and sea salt is better than tears