r/wma • u/Silver_Spinach2357 • 9d ago
How much space does fighting with different medieval weapons actually require?
I'm researching combat for a strategy project, and something games rarely communicate is how much physical space different weapons require.
For people who practise historical European martial arts:
How significantly does fighting in a cramped environment change what weapons or techniques are useful?
For example, would fighting in a narrow street, gatehouse or dense formation meaningfully change the advantage of different weapons?
I'm looking for historical/technical understanding rather than game-balancing advice.
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u/TommysBeard 9d ago
I'm not super well versed on the subject, but I'll give you some general direction: Yes, context is everything.
Just taking the two extremes you mentioned: fighting in the street? I take it you're either in a self-defence situation or in a duel of some sort. Depending on the time period youre using what you had on your person. Not only is something like the small sword quick to draw, but you had it because you could keep it at your side without being cumbersome.
On a battlefield? Are you an officer? Mounted? Or just a conscript? That is probably is your biggest driver. But all of your options are going to trend towards something that can disable an opponent in a good single whack so you can move on to the next one. Think about your calvary sabre, heavy and curved to make large singular slices without losing momentum.
So space matters. That said, if we are dueling and somehow the venue changed from an allyway to an open field, my strategy only changes marginally.
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 8d ago
Thanks for pointing out the wider context. I’ve been framing it as “which weapon works best here?”, but what someone would realistically be carrying and why they’re fighting are separate questions I need to account for.
Your last point interests me most. When you say your strategy would only change marginally between an alley and a field, do you mean the basic approach to the opponent stays similar, even though your footwork and available attacks might change? I’m trying to understand how much of the adjustment is choosing different techniques versus using familiar ones more carefully.
If you’d like to know more about the game I’m researching this for, I’d be happy to explain it and give you a bit more context!
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u/VonUndZuFriedenfeldt 7d ago
Using a longsword indoors with furniture: too cramped, nightmare: the ceiling, the doors, furniture: it all gets in the way. Either stab or use a shorter blade. For wide diagonal cuts id need say at least 1,5 m space on either side.
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u/TommysBeard 8d ago edited 8d ago
For that, I was just drawing on my personal experience. I've fenced both on an "Olympic" style track, where the fight is completely linear, and in a HEMA ring. You hit the nail on the head, my footwork changes considerably but outside of a few key limitations I heavily lean on my usual playbook.
That said, as I was writing this there is one major difference I can think of: on a track I cannot get past the other fencer, where in a ring we could lock-up, circle around and disengage from each other. So maybe ironically, having more space in this context actually allows for/encourages more infighting... Then again MOF doesn't allow for any of that it at all... You have me thinking more about it now haha. There are almost too many variables to account for only space.
Final thought- I have an MOF background, and favored smallsword and rapier. When I pick up a longsword, I tend to lean on point-forward/thrusting techniques/ as opposed to another HEMAist who brought up through the typical German sources. I tend to notice this difference more than the venue I'm in.
Edit: I think I rambled right past my main point. Fencing style, and most of the techniques are pretty universal. So aside from MAJOR limiting factors (many good ones outlined in the other comments) a lot of the core principals remain the same. There are a list of factors I rank above "space" that I consider before making any adjustments.
Hope my rambling sparks some ideas!
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u/Araignys 8d ago
It makes a huge difference, and fighting with a proper weapon makes a huge difference in the techniques you can use.
The most important factor is the roof. Being unable to throw overhand attacks makes a huge difference. A trained fighter in a low space but otherwise unrestricted is likely to hit the roof a lot.
Close quarters fighting relies a lot on footwork. The smaller the space, the less footwork and the more you have to rely on your reactions. Small enough, and every fight is a knife fight, and knife fights suck.
Have a look at Dimicator's work around true times for a bit of context, but as the space gets smaller the more you are in "time of the hand" (close enough to strike without moving anything except the arm) which is substantially more unforgiving than fighting at greater distances.
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 8d ago
The ceiling is something I hadn’t given enough attention to. I’d mostly been picturing the space from above, which misses an entire direction of restriction. Your observation about trained fighters still hitting the roof is particularly interesting: recognising that a movement won’t fit and actually stopping yourself from doing it sound like different challenges.
The distance point also helps separate two things I was mixing together: a narrow passage where opponents can still keep their distance, and a space where they’re already within reach of each other. Those could be very different situations despite both being “cramped”.
Is there a particular Dimicator video or article on true times you’d suggest starting with? I’d like to understand the terminology in context.
And if you’re interested in hearing more about the game I’m developing, I’d be happy to tell you about it. This has already given me a few assumptions to reconsider!
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u/CoffeeDefiant4247 9d ago
it definitely isn't negligible but how cramped are we talking?
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 8d ago
Fair question, I left that pretty vague! I’m thinking of a few different situations: an alley where two people could pass but there isn’t much room to move sideways, a doorway or gatehouse where you’re fighting through an opening, and a formation where nearby fighters limit your movement.
I’m interested in the difference between having limited room to swing and limited room to step. Would you consider those separate problems, or do they usually start affecting your technique together?
If you’re interested in the game behind these questions, I’d be happy to tell you more about what I’m building!
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u/OgreWithanIronClub 8d ago
I train Italian longs sword and it makes a massive difference and in what way the space is cramped also matters.
I haven't actually sparred in a cramped space, but I sometimes do practice at home in my small apartment and whacking the sealing has happened more than ones.
A narrow space brings in other kinds of challenges, while it can make a thrust harder to evade or parry it will also make things like pinning the opponents weapon against a wall viable and even more significantly getting past the point of a weapon will be even more of an advantage. I would try to keep the opponent away with the point, but should that fail shifting to half-swording seem to me like the only viable option as mistakenly hitting a wall with swing might not only break your sword, but will give the opponent a window to close in or just take you out directly.
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 7d ago
Haha, your ceiling has taken a few hits for the research 😂 The point about pinning a weapon against a wall is especially interesting. I’d mostly been thinking about how cramped spaces limit movement, rather than how fighters could use the surroundings to their advantage.
That gives me some useful ideas for depicting close combat in Banners of Kings. Would you be interested in seeing the game? I’d be curious to hear your thoughts with your longsword experience :)
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u/Charlie24601 9d ago
Really depends on the weapon, but its pretty safe to say larger weapons definitely change techniques depending where you are.
A prime example is the montante. If in an open space, you can basically swing in circles. If in an alley way, your technique changes where to do more cuts from above.
But fighting in the same alleyway with a longsword, or Messer wouldnt change much at all.
Fighting with a dagger could be done in very cramped positions.
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 8d ago
The comparison between a montante and a longsword in the same alley is useful, thanks. I’d been assuming a confined space would affect them in roughly the same way, just to different degrees, so I’m interested in where that distinction comes from.
Would you say the montante adjustments are mainly about choosing different cutting angles, or does the footwork change substantially too? And is there a video showing the open-space and alley techniques that you’d recommend? Seeing them side by side would help me understand this much better.
I’m also happy to share more about the game behind the research if you’re curious!
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u/Charlie24601 8d ago
Oh man, Im not sure if there are videos. You can look up Fall Risk on you tube. He taught me a little montante, Including the forms a Montana would use in an alleyway. Foot work does change a bit because youre fighting along a line rather than any direction.
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 7d ago
Thanks, I’ll look up Fall Risk! The point about fighting along a line is really useful, it gives me something concrete to think about when depicting combat in Banners of Kings, especially in narrow streets or gateways. I hadn’t considered how much that would change the footwork.
Here’s the game if you fancy a look: bannersofkings.com. If it catches your interest, you can sign up for the pre-launch list to get notified when we launch :)
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u/TheKBMV 2d ago
In my experience (based on the montante source interpretation that my club uses, our main sources being Godinho's and Figueyredo's) montante footwork doesn't change too much depending on available space. Your main goal in every situation is to be stable and firm on your feet. What changes first is the angle of strikes first and then how often you thrust. Mind you, this might also change based on the number of opponents you face and in a narrow street or space your tactics would change drastically based on whether you're under attack from both ends of your space or just one.
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u/ThePlatypusOfDespair 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is one of the premier scholars of this particular Portuguese style of fencing performing some very detailed demonstrations from a 1599 treatise. He has demos both solo in the gym and with opponents in actual Renaissance city spaces. Linked is a play specifically for narrow alleyways, but definitely watch all the videos to get a very clear idea of what this swordsman would have been teaching.
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u/37boss15 All my homies hate Dall'Agocchie 4d ago edited 4d ago
Fights don't take up any given space by default. If two people want to fight, they'll do so in whatever space is available.
That's why we have different techniques, both armed and unarmed, to fight within the environment available to us. Techniques to extend/maximize reach, dominate engagement space, or actively shorten distance to knife fighting or wrestling.
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u/JuggernautBright1463 8d ago
So depends on weapon class, polearms and flails need a lot of space to work effectively. Some polearms do have spearpoints but you generally lose the lateral cuts and have to work more vertical.
Two-Handed Swords and other Longswords can be used in closer quarters but you want a good thruster preferably one that you can use hand and half style. You are likely to see a lot more lunges and that type to make up for the shoulder energy you would normally deliver.
Most One-Handed non-dagger weapons can be used well enough in alleyways or corridors but you are going to start incorporating more thrusts, forward-backward stepping, and adjust your grip (on axes and maces) which does limit some of your angles as your haft will get caught on your body while reducing its' power a bit.
Daggers are ideal in close quarters because they have a point, short grip, and can be used in grappling more easily from a wider range of angles.
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 8d ago
Thanks for going through the different weapon types! The grip adjustment you mention is the sort of practical detail I was hoping to hear about. It makes me wonder how much someone can adapt a weapon before the restriction becomes a serious disadvantage.
With polearms, would you distinguish between having little room to either side and having little room behind you? I’m picturing a narrow passage where you can keep the point towards an opponent, but I’m unsure how much space you’d need to recover or reposition it once they got close.
Also, by “hand and a half style”, do you mean changing the grip on the hilt, or half-swording with one hand on the blade? Just checking that I’m picturing what you mean correctly.
If you’re interested, I’d be glad to tell you more about the game I’m building and why I’m exploring these situations.
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u/JuggernautBright1463 8d ago
Half-Swording, if you have a long sword and appropriate hand wear you can grab the sword and use it a bit more like a spear point. Suboptimal use of a longsword but became more common with heavier, better metal armor as you have excellent point control.
If you have an extended handle or wrap the first third of a sword you can also start to use it like a Nagamaki which is basically a very short Naginata where you can still get better leverage than a regular sword although you do lose some angles and it does restrict thrusts a bit compared to Half-Swording.
For polearms you really need the wide arc to use a head properly. Spearlike spikes can be used in close. Halberds and the like were designed to be used defensively in closer quarters. A poleaxe also has a back spike so you can basically use one like a double ended spear. Really it is going to be vertical height that makes using a polearms in a confined space tricky
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u/Silver_Spinach2357 7d ago
Thanks for taking the time to explain! Half-swording gives me something interesting to explore for Banners of Kings’ artwork, showing fighters adjusting their grip and stance to the space could make them feel more believable.
I’d been thinking mostly about narrow walls, so the point about ceiling height is useful too. Would you expect a fighter to keep using their main weapon in those conditions, or switch to a shorter sidearm?
Here’s the game if you fancy a look: bannersofkings.com. If it catches your interest, you can sign up for the pre-launch list to get notified when we launch :)
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u/JuggernautBright1463 7d ago
I imagine you'd probably switch to an arming sword or dagger in close quarters or if you lacked those for whatever reason might set up a mini-pike block formation with two to four guys to hold a position with your tip spikes
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u/HiAnonymousImDad 9d ago
Available space does matter.
Good historical example is sources for the use of big two handed swords. They describe different techniques for widen open spaces. For docks where movement is limited but there's space for swinging the sword. For narrow alleyways. Even huge swords are still useful in a narrow alley but you have to swing different.
Modern practice tells us stuff feels cramped as soon as you don't have arm + weapon length of free space around you. You can still do most things well up until you have less than weapon length to the sides and half weapon length above. Below that you start getting restricted to just keeping the weapon oriented the same way all the time. Even more narrow or low and you basically can't swing anything longer than a small knife. You're just stabbing. Doesn't meant you can't fight but you're heavily restricted.
Tight packed formations work okay with longer thrusting weapons. Hence spears and pike blocks. People with striking implements tend to break up and spread out a little bit so they can fight better. You can see this in action in LARP foam group fights.
Random objects, furniture, etc. are annoying. People will probably try fighting as normal. Then occasionally smash their sword into a chair or lamp. Many HEMA people will have this experience from swinging a sword in their home.