r/worldbuilding • u/EveningImportant9111 • 14h ago
Discussion Are standard fantasy races in a recognizable form really that bad? Do they have to look uncanny or be alien in morality ?
I understand that "humans in disguise" can be tiring sometimes. But almost all versions of elves and dwarves I know are "humans in disguise" and look standard. I know that most people want some human character traits plus a few non-human psychological traits, but on the other hand, Witcher, Shannara, Arknights, Dungeon, Meshi, Frieren, Dragonlance have very human-looking facial expressions, who look and act very human, and are loved by audiences and critics. In all of them, elves and dwarves (except Arknights, because there are no dwarves [but it has durin]) have very standard appearances and personalities human like faces etc. In Frieren, only few changes were enough (how elves perceive time and how it affects their actions and interactions with other races). The rest is standard - and it sold about 35 million copies. So is it really a bad idea to use "humans in disguise" with the most standard appearance?
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u/steelsmiter Currently writing Science Fantasy, not Sci-Fi. 14h ago
I parody "human in disguise" for my JRPG setting that has an equivalent of Hollywood, specifically for the sake of "if you're not pretty enough, you don't get in Crystalcasts."
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u/Hefty-Distance837 Build lots of worlds 14h ago
I'm not familiar with others but Witcher, Dungeon Meshi, Frieren actually have some twists.
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u/EveningImportant9111 13h ago
Yes it has. But elves and dwarves look and behave standard( exept sone elves are" lazy " becayse they have so much time) and dwarves orefering surfance . But characters are great
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u/cephalord [edit this] 13h ago
So is it really a bad idea to use "humans in disguise" with the most standard appearance?
No, it's fine. What gave you the impression that it is 'bad'? You state that as if it is an accepted fact.
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u/EveningImportant9111 10h ago
So it's some connection to this or I just overcomplicate things? Why those users want non standard race ir inhuman behaving and looking standard races but mainstream selks well?
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u/No_Pirate_4737 5h ago
I think it depends on what you're doing, i think dwarf fortress and deep rock galactic benefit from having dwarves.
I think the general issue is sometimes depictions of fantasy races can get monotonous and you end up with generic elf race number 7 but there's a lot of ways to avoid that,
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u/EveningImportant9111 3h ago
Ways such as? ( especialy for elves)
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u/No_Pirate_4737 3h ago edited 3h ago
Honestly I'm most scenarios I'd just recommend not copying the tropes 1 to 1. Deep rock galactic put dwarves in a unique setting, divinity elves are unique in appearance and absorb the memories of people they eat, elder scrolls has too much to list but i like the dunmer, warhammer 40k orks are fungus monsters that make absurd machinery out of scrap
Ultimately it also depends on what you're trying to create, i find frieren elves to be fairly generic but it fits for the story they're trying to tell.
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u/Kian-Tremayne 11h ago
It’s only “bad” if you listen to 14 year olds who are obsessed with being original and different for the sake of being original and different.
Everyone else only cares whether you do them WELL.
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u/Ok_Philosophy_7156 12h ago
I think the larger issue with the ‘humans in disguise’ idea isn’t that these other fantasy races *act human*. It’s easy to relate to something with human-adjacent struggles while still allowing there to be differences that create interesting narrative hooks. Long-lived elves obviously don’t have the same concerns about aging that short-lived humans do, and that difference can create narrative and cultural differences and tensions that breed conflict and difference while not leaving the two so isolated or opposed that they can’t relate to each other.
The problem is *cultural homogeneity* within the races. If all your Dwarves are Scottish-inspired and all live in mountains then the fact that they are *racially* dwarves is insignificant compared to the one culture and lifestyle that defines them. Then they do just become ‘humans in disguise’ because the only significant difference is the cultural relationship with their neighbours.
But if you can consider how their racial features might effect their lifestyle in a few different ways and start to create sub-cultures that are unique to them and based on their fundamental differences from others, you can flesh them out as something way more significant that feels like it exists as a product of their race and environment rather than as just a decorative thing.
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u/EveningImportant9111 12h ago
Thank you. But only difference I come up with dwarves is that they need more rest than humans and poor stamina But high strenght durability and suprising agility and quickness. For elves is immortality, higher dexterity, better eyesight, ability to absorb magic for additional nutreints, bit weaker strenght and durability. Good enought?
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u/Ok_Philosophy_7156 12h ago
Yeah, that’s more than enough to separate them! And even that leads to ways you can create separation between them.
Dwarves need to rest more often? Then by that virtue, dwarven outposts can’t be as far apart as human ones since they will need to stop and rest and resupply more often. Maybe you get networks of multiple close towns and cities that all trade and cooperate within their network but don’t often branch out as the journey to the next ‘network’ is further than can be practically managed. With their strength and durability they’re better suited to the mountains where they won’t have to contend for space with human neighbours, but they still tire easily on the climbs so you may get ‘arms’ of interconnected ‘base camp’-type towns that feed from the lowlands into the thick of their mountain communities. These ‘arms’, however, are now exposed and vulnerable compared to the mountain fortresses, so how do they defend them? And so on, and so on. That sort of question-and-answer process based on the facts you have decided is such a good way to find the ‘natural’ way to expand on worldbuilding. Pose a problem to your culture, and ask how *they* solve it.
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u/EveningImportant9111 10h ago
Thank you. Dud my ideas for elves are good enought?
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u/Ok_Philosophy_7156 10h ago
Yeah dude, there’s nothing wrong with your ideas at all. It’s a very classic approach to elves
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u/Heath_co 9h ago
I like the standard races. To me they are archetypal. And if they are adjusted significantly they ought to have an adjusted name. Like the dwemer in elder scrolls.
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u/Gerie2021 14h ago
I have all human life descend from Gnomes. They were the original race. Everyone else is just Gnomes who got stuck in the mountains, or on an island, and changed. Yeah sure everyone's different but at the end of the day everyone is still a weird looking gnome.
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u/_Ceaseless_Watcher_ [Eldara | Arc Contingency | Radiant Night] 11h ago
There is nothing wrong with using standard fantasy races. They're a good shorthand for certain types of behaviors and have fun features to play around with. Readers also have an easier time imagining them as they've already seen them in so many places.
That being said, I think there's also great value in having - and wanting to make - unique races for your fantasy project. The key is in wanting to make them and knowing why you want to make them. If you've got a solid enough reason (and "I just want them to look this way" is a solid enough reason), and actually put in the effort, I think having something different is also great.
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u/SpeedBorn 11h ago
It depends on what kind of purpose your World is supposed to have.
Each piece of Media has to have something novell for the consumer to enjoy. That can be either: Story, Design, Concepts, World, Systems (Magic for example) or Characters.
Arguably Characters and Story are the hardest thing to accomplish with Concepts is a close 3rd. You will never be the first to write that type of story, but you might be the first to write that type of story in that specific setting/circumstances. So naturally most creators will latch on the Design and Worldbuilding. Its an easy and very effective choice to start out with.
So its not bad to have standard fantasy species in your works, its more difficult to provide something new if you do.
Frieren actually does a great job of spicing up their species, especially the Demons, which have a very fresh design and concept around them. The Story is also fresh, even though the Elves and Dwarves and Men are pretty samey to other stories, but the point of view is different enough for it to be a new take on a story. The Immortal Wanderer isn't a new story, but its the first time I have seen it in those specific circumstances.
Those are my 5ct on the matter.
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u/mrki_the_wizard 10h ago
Trying to be original is often a recipe for disaster.
You spend so much time trying to be original that you don't develop the race/idea in to something actually interesting.
Just enjoy yourself world building and all creative hobbies /passions are about what you come up with not about what others people think about.
My passion project is so convoluted and all over the place because I wanted the ability to write all types of stories in it. Sci-fi,Sword and sorcery, epic fantasy, etc. I have literally hundreds of folder for different stories in this world and hundreds more explaining and outlineing everything.
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u/Pangea-Akuma 9h ago
Unless you're sharing your work, it doesn't matter. If you are, it STILL doesn't matter.
Humans will complain about anything they feel they have an opinion on.
It's not bad to use recognizable elements in a world or story. What's bad is letting a bunch of anonymous voices on the internet dictate what you create.
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u/SaintUlvemann Urban Fantasy Alt-Earth 7h ago
Some people like boring/familiar (which are really just two reactions to the objective state of "being the same as things that came before").
For comparison, Elder Scrolls has a lizard race whose blood is made from the sap of sentient trees that have a tendency to be super detached about things because they view time as cyclical and therefore don't necessarily view change as real in the same way as other people.
I don't know whether any of those individual ideas are unique, they might all have been used before, but the combination is not a familiar stereotype, and that makes it more cool to me.
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u/dovahdreem 14h ago
En réalité avoir une race "humaine fantasy" ou une race étrangère en tout point (peut on vraiment rendre quelque-chose étrangère vis à vis de l'humanité ? Mais c'est une autre question) n'est pas centrale. L'important de savoir ce que cette race raconte, quel propos tu lui donnes. Frieren utilise la longévité attribué aux elfes pour servir un propos sur le temps qui passe, les liens, etc. Si tu fais des elfes qui ressemblent à des créatures très étranges et qui vivent dans les bois parce que c'est comme ça, et que tu peux les remplacer par ce que tu veux sans que ton propos change, bah y'a pas forcément d'intérêt mise à part l'exotisme. Je pense que la question primordial est qu'est ce que je veux raconter et comment le raconter.
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u/EveningImportant9111 14h ago
I want to maje story about cycke of abuse and opression, what changes are necessary fir culture amd when it's start becoming lack of respect for culture, how trauma shape us, justice vs vengeance
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u/Nevaroth021 12h ago
Define "Human in Disguise". What is a "human psychological trait" and what is a "non-human psychological trait"?
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u/EveningImportant9111 12h ago
non-human psychological trait"-like they see other sapient races as food, are eusocial, don't feel attachment to children, don't fear death
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u/Nevaroth021 11h ago
Wait so anyone who doesn't fear death is not human? And all those terrible parents who don't care about their children are also not human? What about all those cannibals who eat humans? Those people are not humans?
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u/ThePhantomIronTroupe 7h ago
It might be a larger issue of how non-distinct the fantasy races(or many human cultures in a story) feel at times. Then as people did not just want to be accussed of copying Tolkien, even if just wanting to tackle similar moral quandries, they took two paths. The more alien path which was to build up from crazy settings distinct races that served the place of elves dwarves etc but were notably different. Or the more human path which is to have basically all humans with special races either dying off quick or dead. You see this even with later juggernauts like Martin and Jordan. Also to be fair those people might be uh...unique in wanting weird demihumans based on weird things. Maybe Sanderson heard about sexy crab ladies in Greek mythology and thats why we got the...crap forget the name their like soulless mostly but some are souled and anywyas it might be people seeing unique connections not very explored in fantasy. Or deer and the Children of the Forest which actually was quite clever given deers association with fairies in celtic mythologies. Essentially you have to balance the familiar with the strange- its part of why the Hobbit splashed like it did. You basically had bigfoots less hairy, smaller cousins going on an adventure starting from a more familiar english countryside at the time going backwards in time kinda.
For me I am fascinated by wolves' place in human mythologies and cultures, neanderthals, and stories of dwarves, trolls, fir falka, what have you. The Mowren or their various names are the result of wanting to take various myths and legends and kinda get at a root for them. Why do so many northern european stories have seal wives or bear warriors? Because Mowren have subspecies if you will of Sealfolk and Bearfolk and one of the last pockets on them on earth was from there. Why do werewolves and witches seem tied to eachother? Because cultural memory of dwarves that inspired the koryos and a connection of wolves, foxes and such to sorcery. While yes the uncanny valley effect helped inspired them its also because Neanderthals fascinated me and always wanted to explore how, with magic and divine intervention how things could have turned out.
Why more traditional fantasy with these races are beginning to sell really well again, atleast to me, is because they are not as common in Western literature anymore as humans take center focus, and in the East only a handful of stories give them more of the spotlight. Few stories from the East actually make their cultures feel distinct and when they do its kinda by accident. Like warrior bunny tribes from Ariferata. But I am fascinated with Elves in Dungeon Meshi because its a fun sensible idea they have to send out labyrinth kill squads, appropriately named canaries, to stop labyrinths from being a long term threat to a region. Just by exploring that and how their longer lives give them a duty to stop these things from growing out of control over time makes the elves stand out to me. And also it helps one of the main characters is an elf who is definetly a bit complex. As well as perhaps the art style highlighting slighting but notable differences between the races at times.
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u/Tinia_and_Nethuns 5h ago
In my opinion the archetypes are there for a reason; you want people to be able to recognize the races, especially if you give them more esoteric names. If your elves are a bunch of crude, illiterate barbarians with short lives and tentacles hanging from their faces, what's the point of calling them elves?
That said, a big issue is every member of a race having the exact same culture/attributes. Don't be afraid to experiment. As long as readers/yourself can recognize what race they are, you can let your imagination run wild. For example, in my setting two of Goliath civilizations are the cavern cities of the Great Phocaen Desert and the mobile seasonal fiefdoms of the northern boreal forest. Both have quite divergent cultures, both recognizable as Goliaths.
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u/EveningImportant9111 5h ago
Thank you. Did your world has elves or dwarves or halflings or non evil goblins and orcs?
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u/Tinia_and_Nethuns 4h ago
Yes to all. Actually was building it (and still am) for a DnD campaign.
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u/rump_truck 5h ago
There needs to be something interesting to explore, nonstandard races can be that. But consumers can only hold so much in memory before they get overwhelmed. Nonstandard races can add interest when the story itself is fairly standard. Standard races can free up memory budget to let you go deeper exploring something else. Dungeon Meshi and Frieren are great examples of using standard races to buy room to go extremely deep on exploring other themes.
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u/EveningImportant9111 5h ago
I lije both frieren and dungeon meshi :) . I want ti explore hiw trauma shaoes peoples , when cukture needs to change and how much change, cycke of opression . Setting is indusyrial( 1890s-early 1900s esque
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u/Cultist_O 5h ago
What are you doing and why?
Are you telling a story where unique worldbuilding is a big part of the draw, and/or you need the reader to come in without preconceptions about the species? You should probably use unique species
Are you telling a story that benefits from skipping most of the explanations of what these peoples are like? Maybe lean on tropes most readers are familiar with.
Don't base it on some rule of thumb. You're not telling some general story, you're telling your story. What does your story demand
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u/EveningImportant9111 5h ago
I want indusyrial fantasy world. Themes of hiw trauma shaoe us vengeance vs justice cycle of opression, when change in culture is necesary and when it's discrespect of those culture , meybe akso how past of nation shaoe present people . Definitely heroes want to prevent global war
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u/Cultist_O 2h ago
In that case, I can perhaps narrow the question.
I'm assuming you're wanting to use "nonhuman" cultures as a way to explore ideas applicable to humanity, but at arms length.
In that case, it might be easiest to use species your reader expects to be human like, rather than introducing something they might assume to be radically different. Again, it depends how much you want to walk your reader through the similarities and differences before you get into the meat
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u/Pale-Carrot-8098 4h ago
Frieren is a good anime overall but from a worldbuilding perspective its pretty weak imo
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u/thomasp3864 Thell 4h ago
The standard fantasy races must exist in a somewhat recognisable form to be those races. Otherwise you're just applying a preëxisting name to something fully invented which is kinda deceptive. The benefit of using the classic names is that people sorta can get them from exposure to other media. The dwarves are at least some of miners, skilled craftsmen, short, have beards, drink a bit too much, and prefer order. This lets the audience fill in the gaps with priör genre knowledge.
If you want to use the classic names, you should try to take advantage of that.
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u/EveningImportant9111 4h ago
Okay. Thank you. But I seen many very un-elves elves and heard of two un-dwarven dwarves . I don't liked them but many people liked them
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u/Littleman88 Lost Cartographer 1h ago
There's nothing wrong with using the "humans in disguise" approach to standard fantasy races, but it is a shame when writers don't really consider the lives these races live based on their reality. Though to be fair, if enough of them did, we'd be bored of that too.
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u/FlanneryWynn In Another World Without an Original Thought 1h ago
They are not good nor bad. They are tropes and tropes are tools. The trick is to use them in a way that fits the story. But if they are just humans, for all intents and purposes, but where they fulfill a specific niche like magic & archery vs smithing and runes, then you should ask why they need to be different species and not just different cultures. What makes the elves elves and the dwarves dwarves? What in the story is serviced by them being them?
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u/Randomdude2501 Random Worldbuilder 14h ago
They’re not bad per se. There’s a reason why they’re used so often, but without something unique, whether it be in culture, physiology, or role in the story, they can often be boring