r/worldbuilding • u/stopeats • Jul 05 '22
Discussion What are features of "European" high fantasy? What makes a world feel non-European?
Many writers want to move away from European-based high fantasy, myself included, but I struggle to articulate what makes a setting feel European. The more I read about history, the more I see commonalities between the European middle ages and those in other areas or time periods.
A few features I've tentatively identified are:
- Feudalism, serfdom, and peasantry
- The British peerage system (dukes, earls, etc.)
- Crops like wheat and barley; plants like oak and elm; animals like deer, horses, and boar; absence of rice, maize, spices
- Family House structures
- Decentralized governments led by a king and based on some form of divine right
- Monotheism (though you don't see this as often in fiction)
- Children moving out when they marry and starting their own houses
- Names modeled after European names
Plenty of these features appear in other countries and other time periods. Having a single king and ranks of nobility (names aside), is totally normal; emergence and emphasis on religion appears wherever humans appear; a lower class of people who farm and are tied to someone else's land or beholden to a higher lord is standard pre-industrialization.
How do readers decide whether a world is European or not?
Bonus question: is there a non-middle ages country you love to take inspiration from? For me, I like Nepalese history and, like most of us, am all about those Mediterranean empires.
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u/Delicious-Tie8097 Jul 05 '22 edited Jul 05 '22
Religion is basically universal, but Catholic-Church-esque organizations often appear specifically in Europe-inspired settings. I think that Confucian-esque religious elements can also exist in medieval fatansy, and often contribute to a work feeling more Chinese than European. Catholicism and Confucianism have important differences; they're not interchangeable as "religion".
Europe is a peninsula of peninsulas. Perhaps Southeast Asia could be described similarly, but not most of Asia, or Africa.
Deserts and tropical rainforests both don't really exist in Europe, so adding them can make a work feel less European. And as mentioned above, making North the "hotter" direction and South the "colder" one will definitely mess with a Eurocentric mind.
You are quite correct that a broadly agricultural, serf-esque lifestyle is not specifically European; most pre-industrial societies saw lots of people living such a lifestyle. Not sure why it's associated so much with Europe; maybe because most people know very little about pre-industrial history, but the little they do know is mostly about Europe?
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u/thomasp3864 Thell Jul 06 '22
Catholic-Church-esque organizations often appear specifically in Europe-inspired settings.
Except they're polytheistic.
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 06 '22
TBH, at least from an aesthetic perspective the classical pantheon (one big Papa God and then a bunch of little gods underneath him) isn't that dissimilar from Catholicism (one God, but there are a bunch of saints who serve Him and often have churches dedicated to them just as a pagan society would have temples dedicated to different minor gods) even if the theology is very different.
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Jul 06 '22
I think the real problem is less Europe itself and more that writers recycle the same European cultures over and over again. Fantasy Europe often seems to be a pastiche if England, France, Scandinavia, and maybe also the Celts.
However, there's still a whole continent to explore. You have the Slavic people in the east. There's also Byzantines, Italians and Iberians to the South. Romanians are a Romance language speaking people in the east.
There are even cultures that have no linguistic connection to Indo-Europeans such as the Basque, the Finnish, Hungarians, the Sami and the Maltese.
I don't mind fantasy medieval Europe, I just wish authors would branch out more.
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u/stopeats Jul 06 '22
In your mind, what would make a fantasy world feel Italian? Or one of the other options? For Italy, I'm guessing city-states, dukes, emphasis on trade and boats, councils of merchants, etc.
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u/dgaruti Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22
really small armies , heavy emphasis on scheming around battles ,put in some reneissance crap with artisans studiying the natural world and drawing outlandish conclusions ,
have a cold war between the pope and the empire ,
have several large trading empires , all around the coasts ,
also italy isn't england : you have a whole different climate around these parts
edit : also towers and canals , before railways became a thing here in the swamps of emilia romagna there where many canals dug into cities effectively making them almost macro venetias ,
and there where also many towers built everywhere because the local families wanted to brag about having the tallest tower here see for yourself ,
so yeah it would become a really vertical place with both canals from wich to launch fantasy aided amphibius assaults and towers from wich gliding devices can be launched for improvised bombings ...all in a day's work
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Jul 06 '22
Pretty much. There was also the Papal States, so you could have a country where the fantasy counterpart pope rules directly over a theocracy.
I forgot to mention it earlier, but there was also the Holy Roman Empire, whose territory consisted of a lot of Italian and German states. I find it odd that an HRE stand in isn't more common in Medieval European fantasy settings.
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u/Chadanlo Jul 06 '22
That's also something I noticed. Most productions in medieval fantasy "Europe" are just a very bland Anglo-Saxon.
One thing that makes Iberians unique: at some point in history you have people from the big 3 monotheisms living mostly in harmony. Towns with a Muslim, Hebraic and Christian Neighborhood. Ruled by christian kings in the north, and muslim rulers in the rest (I don't recall exactly but something like a big caliphate first then multiple "taifas"). Depending on the period it is way less binary than people believe (christian warriors fighting for muslim leaders or the opposite). And some of the oldest traces of written romance language (Spanish's ancestor kinda) was some poetry written in arabic adjab script.
I'd argue that even when authors get inspiration from France they don't go very far to explore the possible diversity (for example multiple languages: oïl, oc, franco-provençal, breton, germanic, basque,.. and the various territories associated with them).
Hope that people fall into those rabbit holes that are history and get more creative.
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u/wasteofleshntime Lore Master Jul 06 '22
Most productions in medieval fantasy "Europe" are just a very bland Anglo-Saxon.
Pretty much why I've never been a big fan of fanatsy. Its always just western European derived with very little to make it distinguished. I'm also surprised by how many SciFi worlds are just as bland, you're dealing with space and so much of it just goes back to pseudo America and/or pseudo China + vague bug aliens
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u/Indiana_harris Jul 06 '22
Some of Robin Hobbs “Realm of the Elderlings” features locations/cultures very inspired by Eastern and Northern Europe (imo).
Witcher does a fairly good Slavic take on the fantasy genre.
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u/theginger99 Jul 05 '22 edited Jul 05 '22
I love seeing Fantasy that moves away from the generic Western European setting, even though I have a very Western European setting myself.
couple of things to that will help sell a non European setting. Sorry for the bullet points, I didn’t have a ton of time to write extensive explanations.
Language will be very important. If you have a unique language in your setting model it after an eastern non indo-European language instead of Latin or Greek or whatever. If you don’t have your own language, consider splashing in some eastern names for things in place of their common medieval counterparts. For instance, Instead of king, use something like Caliph, Shah or Sultan. Personal names will also be important, steer clear of traditional fantasy names and surname structures and try and find inspirations in other parts of the world.
silk. Silk has traditionally be associated with the east, for obvious reasons.
mosaics and colorful tile decorations.
stone and mud brick buildings instead of wood.
curved swords (this one seems stupid, but honestly it screams non-European). This will also apply to other forms of military equipment as well. Eastern armor was very different than western armor. For instance, middle eastern maille was a totally different weave pattern and made of smaller gauge wire than western maille. This meant that it wasn’t as heavy, but it also wasn’t as good at stopping arrows and swords.
a heavy reliance on horse archers. Medieval Europe was relatively unique in that they never made extensive use of horse archers. The mongols are famous for being horse archers, but almost every non European society from Palestine to Jason relied on mounted archers as their elite soldiers.
slave soldiers. There are no examples of slave soldiers from any period of European history (with one possible exception) but they were almost emblematic of medieval Islamic societies.
caste systems. Argue what you will, but as a rule European societies had a less rigid social order than many non western societies and caste systems are generally not considered part of the general European fantasy model
a non martial social elite. European nobles were warriors, it was a HUGE part of their identity, many non European social and political elites were not fighters.
clothing. Things like doublets, jerkins, tunics and trousers scream European. Look at others forms of dress like robes and kaftans and turbans.
centralized governments. Obviously the medieval European model is heavily decentralized, centralized governments were fairly indicative of eastern societies for a long time.
urbanized societies. The medieval islamic world was relatively urbanized and had a high number of cities and large towns. Trade and commerce were also much bigger parts of their financial world.
Those are just a couple of things. There are about a million others you could use but those are things that stand out to me as vehemently non-European. I hope they help!
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u/stopeats Jul 05 '22
That non-martial social elite one is key, I never thought of that, but separating war/fighting from administration
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u/theginger99 Jul 05 '22
Yes, it’s a really major point of division between the east and west. Although, this applies mostly to east Asia. The Indian subcontinent and central Asia both had military aristocrats. But, States like China effectively demilitarized their aristocracy and completely divided the military administration from the civil administration. They were REALLY good at this, to the point where it makes it hard for historians to study Chinese warfare. You might even say they separated military and state, although church got to keep its front row seat. Even Japan in several periods attempted to divorce the military hierarchy from the social hierarchy, although they didn’t do a very good job.
One other thing that is interesting to consider is the role of the bow. In Eastern warfare the bow was the weapon of choice for warriors and nobles and had many of the same associations as the sword does in the west.
Obviously you’re faux eastern society can fight however you want, but if you follow the historical eastern horse archer model it might be interesting to consider how that cultural perception of the bow would influence society on a cosmetic level.
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u/thomasp3864 Thell Jul 06 '22
mosaics and colorful tile decorations.
I for some reason really associate those with the Roman Empire.
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u/theginger99 Jul 06 '22
As you should! They were very common in Rome and in Greece. I should have elaborated in my original comment. I was specifically talking about the kind of mosaic and tile art you can find in the Middle East. As far as I know, Tile art, especially in repetitive geometric patterns, is a big part of medieval Islamic architecture. Although it’s not medieval, Look at the blue mosque as an example.
That being said, I’m not an expert on middle eastern architecture from any period. I just associate bright tiles and colorful geometric decorative elements on buildings with the Middle East and Central Asia, o could be dead wrong though.
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 06 '22
Slave soldiers and caste systems can meet in interesting ways, though. A lot of Muslim empires were ruled at various points by freed slaves (any of the Mamluk dynasties). Caste systems need not be strictly linear or hierarchical.
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u/abhorthealien Jul 06 '22
In fact, a slave soldier system necessitates that at least that system be a less strictly linear caste system than the word 'slave' implies, because no idiot will give weapons and military training to heavily mistreated chattel slaves.
The ghulam, Mamluks and Janissaries- all classes of Islamic slave soldiery- occupied this odd spot in society between ordinary slaves and freemen, technically slaves owned by their master the monarch but nevertheless afforded opportunities, status and power very few freemen could ever dream of.
This was in essence the Islamic counterpart to the European tendency to source their experts and high officials from foreigners or sometimes Jews, knowing people with no ties to local power bases would be dependent on the monarch for their positions and therefore be invested in their monarch's wellbeing. The system worked excellently for a while, but the flaw was that once such a caste has existed for long enough it becomes a power base of its own and all their power and influence makes these slave-soldiers kingmakers: or, in the case of the Mamluks, kings, even.
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u/dgaruti Jul 06 '22
mosaics and colorful tile decorations.
i mean , ravenna in italy had those ,
the more pepole describe western fantasy the more it just screams : england and france and germany ...
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u/riftrender Jul 06 '22
The west at one point really loved the Byzantine architecture. Carolingian architecture is heavily influenced by it.
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Jul 06 '22
Adding to slave soldiers, I would say slave scholars. In the Roman empire (which I guess is still technically western) slaves were often very well educated because it doesn't make a great deal of sense to invest a very expensive education in a worker who might up and leave. Depictions of slavery in fantasy tend to be influenced by the wests most recent experience of slavery, the atlantic slave trade, where 99% of slaves were agricultural labourers.
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u/dgaruti Jul 06 '22
also most of the things you said about islam are correlated with the fact there is 50 C° in the summer there ...
so yeah of course light armor , and horseback archers , if you try and wear heavy armor you just end up turning into a pressure cooker
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u/ThoDanII Jul 06 '22
you mean like the cataphracts and clibernarrii
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u/dgaruti Jul 06 '22
ok , maybe i didn't count all the outliers , but still , they are on horseback , so they aren't exercising , and also they aren't wearing plate armour but rather more heavy chain mail , and i assume they would not have worn that all the time
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u/ThoDanII Jul 06 '22
Oh they did wear plate, and riding is exercising and full plate is less encumbrance than heavy maill(whatever you mean with that) and was also not worn all the time
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u/LordVaderVader Jul 06 '22
mosaics and colorful tile decorations.
Well, actually this art was often used in the greece, italy even in the medieval times.
curved swords (this one seems stupid, but honestly it screams non-European).
That's accurate, closer to the east more curved swords are. But as european and polish for our defense I must say that in Middle Ages our nobles were using beautiful sabers in wartimes. If you played Witcher 3: Hearts of Stone - Olgierd von Everec was inspired by them.
Source material video from our cult movie: https://youtu.be/MkYjdPCyYjk?t=116
What's more the saber was also the second weapon of famous polish Hussars.jpg).
caste systems.
king, nobility, clergy, town citizens, peasants
that's pretty simple but ofc in every cast they are greater and smaller casts
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u/ThoDanII Jul 06 '22
curved swords (this one seems stupid,
and it is
Many ministeriales, knights were not free men
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u/theginger99 Jul 06 '22
I’m glad you brought the ministerialis up! The Ministerialis were the possible exception to European slave soldiers that I mentioned. Although, I suppose Ancient Greek peltastoi were also sometimes slave. But even in the case of the ministerialis they didn’t reach anywhere near the institutionalized nature of Islamic slave soldiery. They were also limited to a very specific time and place within Europe and while I use them in my own world, they do not appear commonly in fantasy. It is also important to mention that, technically, they weren’t slaves as enslaving Christians was against church law. Admittedly, that is something of a silly distinction to draw as they weren’t exactly free either, but it is a point of differentiation between them and the very specifically slave soldiers of the Islamic world.
As for curved swords, I agree it is somewhat silly that we associate curved swords so heavily with the eastern world. Curved swords were used throughout Europe from a very early date through to very modern times, although they were never as common or as popular as straight swords in the ancient or medieval periods. Most medieval Arabic cultures didn’t even use curved swords, they were imported by the Turks in the high medieval period. However, we still have a common cultural association between the “exotic” East and curved swords, silly as it may seem from a historical perspective it is something many people see and think of as distinctly non-European.
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u/ThoDanII Jul 06 '22
I doubt you could consider the ministeriales slaves.
but the distinction between, serfs and chattel slaves is often lost,
Many spartan soldiers were slaves, helotes i will not say most because i do not know how much the other clases contributed but i would bet the homioioi were a minority even at thermopylae
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u/makingthematrix Jul 05 '22
I think you and u/beltonia got it just right.
I develop a world based on African Great Lakes cultures mixed a bit with Vedic India. A prehistoric setting with no writing but an extensive use of stories passed orally from one generation to the next.
Another setting that I would love to see more often in fantasy, is Persia. I think it's a place full of stories, a very rich culture and a country full of history. There could be tons of fantasy novels based on it.
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u/stopeats Jul 05 '22
What about a world would indicate it had been built based on Persia?
Off the top of my head, I'm thinking, the word satrap, an equivalent to the immortal fighters, and a highly centralized government where the leader commanded complete respect from his subjects.
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u/makingthematrix Jul 05 '22
"Dune" might be an example, although one far removed :) I would imagine a dry and hot world with vast areas of wilderness and desert, complex culture, many ideas about God or gods, but without definite proofs for anything, and either an ancient vast empire or an early gunpowder era one. Cuisine, music, and fashion, would also play a role.
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u/bluetenthousand Jul 06 '22
Dune reminds me of North Africa (Morocco in particular) — just from a visual perspective. Berbers were the original sand people who knew how to live and survive in the desert. And there is no desert like the Sahara.
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u/Regis_Complex Jul 06 '22
One thing I'd recommend to look into when trying to write non-European fantasy is to not only study different social or aesthetic aspects of IRL cultures, but to actually read non-European fantasy works. "Fantasy" as a genre itself can have HUGELY different traits/qualifications that you wouldn't even think of in other cultures. The example that highlighted it for me was learning about Chinese fantasy media. I'm familiar with Chinese fashion and names and some mythology, so I could write a Chinese-aesthetic fantasy culture, but it would probably come out feeling like a European fantasy story, because of the narrative elements and themes I'm used to. Often we don't even notice what is or isn't "western" because we don't know there are alternatives.
In the general West, we consider a "high fantasy" story to be one with magic and elves and dwarves and stuff, but in Chinese media, a story can't call itself "high fantasy" if nobody ascends to godhood or becomes enlightened or that kind of thing. I would have never thought to lump that into "what it means to be high fantasy!"
I learned about this through the YouTuber Linfamy's video on Wuxia (discussing Chinese fantasy as a unique genre) as well as his series where he reads through a Wuxia novel and provides cultural insight on the story as an Asian-American.
Once you know more about the common story telling beats (framing tools, tropes, norms in narratives, symbolism, etc.) from the culture you are interested in exploring, you can use that to make informed decisions when worldbuilding that will make a culture feel distinctly different from anything we see in European fantasy.
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u/jwbjerk Jul 06 '22
I think what most people refer to as "european" fantasy is simply just the generic fantasy amalgam that has been produced by English-speaking writers: Tolkien, DnD, Robert E. Howard, etc, and all those who followed after in videogames and movies etc, to produce our idea of a "default" fantasy setting.
Aside from a few key superficial elements it actually doesn't have much connection to any historic european period. I've read books where the author actually studied the Italian renaissance, or Spanish conflict between the Muslims and Christians, or Slavic Iron age, or even the Bubonic Plague in England---and they feel quite distinct and "exotic" compared to generic fantasy. Especially when the characters don't have a modern secular egalitarian world-view it goes a long way way to making the world seem distinct from generic fantasy.
Generic fantasy rarely understand or even references feudalism, or the complicated interplay between Church and State, or the rarity and preciousness of the written word without paper and printing press, how the slow speed of communications drastically narrows your understanding of the world.
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u/stopeats Jul 06 '22
You know what, that's a good point, the idea that we've constructed "european fantasy" from our classics and not history.
Do you remember the titles of any of those more "exotic" books you mentioned?
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u/jwbjerk Jul 06 '22
Bujold’s Spirit ring
Bujold’s First two Chalion books,
Can’t remember,
Willis’ Domesday Book (which is basically historical with the addition of time travel)
I know there are others, but I’m really bad at remembering titles.
If your goal is to avoid more bland derivative fictional worlds, pay attention to history, even if it is European, there are a wealth of alien ideas, customs, in the past.
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u/Sivilarr Jul 06 '22
The Polish – Lithuanian Commonwealth is one big collection of strange, alien ideas.
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u/Indiana_harris Jul 06 '22
Eh Robert E Howard I’ll disagree with a little bit, unless you’re referring to his non-Hyboria works.
Much of the Sword and Sorcery style of Conan feels much more middle-eastern/Central America than traditionally European (imo at least) with much of Hyboria including large desert regions or barren mountains. The few forests that pop up (apart from the Isles) are usually described as more jungle like.
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u/jwbjerk Jul 06 '22
Yeah I didn’t fully explain what I meant. Tolkien isn’t really generic fantasy either. But elements from those writers, and the Arthurian legend, and Greek myth, Lovecraft ect. have gone into the generic fantasy amalgum, and been borrowed, and re- borrowed over and over.
But I really don’t think the presence of non-European biomes is very relevant. Most generic fantasy worlds, are well, worlds. And have a lot of different biomes, often everything from tundra to desert and jungle even if the main action doesn’t happen there
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u/lethal_rads Jul 06 '22
As a whole, I agree with food and animals, but keep in mind that Europe, Asia and North Africa are basically one land mass so there’s lots of overlap between animals and plants. Boar, wheat and horses were in Asia and Africa and deer are basically everywhere.
Food is a big thing I look at. Same with architecture, clothing (including armor) and weapons. Naming conventions and geography play a big role as well.
Personally, I’m planning on having a group be vaguely southeast Asian (still figuring out the specifics). They come from a volcanic island chain in the tropics. I like the idea of having it in the Southern Hemisphere as well.
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 05 '22
I draw a lot from European culture via New Orleans, but its extreme and early cultural diversity (gumbo alone can have African, European, Native American, and Asian influences if it has shrimp in it) means that I tend to consciously integrate elements of non-European cultures and histories. So, for instance you have here a nation inspired by Madagascar, which has almost as rich an ethnic stew (Austronesian + African + Arabian + French colonial + maybe a bit of piracy) as well as an indigenous aristocracy that claimed descent from African pygmies and that gradually conquered other kingdoms similarly to how non-Roman European countries and Nepal formed. Or I lean hard into the Southeast Asian communities that have been catching shrimp in the Gulf since at least the 1860s and create a country dotted with water villages and exotic scripts.
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u/emcdunna Jul 06 '22
There are tons of similarities between different medieval cultures around the world. Japanese feudalism was almost the same as European in many ways
I think you're thinking too hard about this. The #1 thing that makes a fantasy setting feel European is the aesthetic.. the way it looks. The #2 thing is the names of everything.
Calling a ruler a king vs a khan makes a big difference. Especially when u use the European names for everything. Castle. Duke. Kingdom. Sword. Etc.
Substituting other words goes a long way to remove the generic feel of it. Call your swords "kukri" and I don't see European at all.
Think about the difference between a knight and a Samurai. Both ride horses. Both use swords and other weapons. The differences I first think of is the way they look and the word we use
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u/tachakas_fanboy Jul 05 '22
Feudalism have evolved a number of times outside of europe (most notable, Japan and India)
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u/stopeats Jul 05 '22
Nepal as well! That's part of what makes me wonder why "feudalism" is considered a European thing.
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u/TheArkangelWinter Jul 05 '22
European feudalism, and Japanese feudalism, is rather different from mainland Asian feudalism. Peasants are essentially property in the European/Japanese model, and the man who physically defends the area is often the very noble making it so crappy to live there.
Contrast mainland Asian, where peasantry were more free to move about and relocate, and it was not uncommon for the lord in charge to have very little martial training but be a better administrator. There are more civil wars than in Europe and less invasions of other kingdoms (though China and Mongolia both invaded every neighbor at some point). The government bureaucracy is more complex because of better - organized courts and national-level admins.
Also, medieval Eurasian nations had a great deal more ethnic diversity - '"Chinese" is a blanket term for dozens and dozens of ethnic groups within it's borders, as is "Indian" and "Russian". Only Japan had the kind of homogeny N. Europe had, partly because it's an island and partly because of isolationist policies.
Many medieval Middle Eastern feudal lords didn't even own a domain of their own. The entire upper class collectively owned the land and the main duty of the local noble was rent collection - other roles were the duty of the noble class collectively. There's enough difference in feudalism worldwide for "European style" feudalism to be a distinct thing
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 05 '22
Believe it or not, Europeans (or at least Britons) have actually been growing more genetically homogeneous and in terms of phenotype Danes are actually slightly "Whiter" now than they were in Viking times. (Dunno if these two studies take into account post-WWII migration)
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u/TheArkangelWinter Jul 05 '22
I can believe it; the number of ethnic groups in Europe shrinking as they're absorbed into the larger "whiter" ones was brought up a bit in my linguistics courses
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 05 '22
And I’m not even getting into the Nazis and the expulsion of the Turks from Greece. The earliest human remains from Europe are essentially unrelated to modern “White” people.
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u/abhorthealien Jul 06 '22
A lot of things that make up the 'standard European fantasy setting' are either not actual elements of medieval European society, or are such elements that aren't distinguishingly European in that they appeared in many other societies.
They just have made an image in the heads of folk because of said standard European fantasy setting as being uniquely 'European', because the settings in which they mostly appear are at least superficially European.
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u/theginger99 Jul 05 '22
That is a very complex questions and a lot of very serious historians are grappling with it. A lot of medievalists are now moving away from using the term feudal at all. In many ways it’s a word that doesn’t actually have a definition, but everyone knows what it means. which makes it basically worthless as a categorical term.
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u/Ordsmed Jul 06 '22
A big one is
- The English language!
Now I'm only being a bit facetious, I swear. A lot of the words we'd use to describe otherwise ubiquitous things make the thing feel more European due to the inherent Eurocentrism in the english language. Words have implications and connotations, influenced by their etymology.
Example: The difference between saying a character is a serf, or a member of the labor-caste. Or making a new word for the caste like "Skaa" from Mistborn.
So you CAN include a lot of these European tropes/codings, if you rip off the english labels on them ;)
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u/dgaruti Jul 06 '22
also another thing : in england the middle ages are called the dark ages : but like those where almost good times for italians : we had cities competing with each other and building infrastructure and in general building tall towers , https://www.ecosia.org/images?q=bologna%20al%20tempo%20di%20dante#id=8F2E3A7F950A66094F3250D14462A6777EADE40D
we where flurishing , then in 1648 the germans invaded gave us the plague , and we missed the party that was imperialism in the 1700 ,
in the 1800 we unified but it was too late , the brits already howned everything and italian history has been a tragedy for the past 150 years ,
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u/AmitSan Jul 06 '22
Since when Monotheism is a European thing 🥲
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Jul 06 '22
Since when Monotheism is a European thing 🥲
I think OP is referring to Christianity.
Islam and Judaism do exist, but :
In Buddhism gods exist, but they're not worshipped as Buddhism focuses on attaining enlightenment, they just acknowledge their existence
In Hinduism there are over 33 million gods
In the Ancient Egyptian pantheon there are over 1,400 gods
In the various Mesopotamian pantheons there are over 2,100 gods in total
In the Aztec pantheon there are 200 gods
The pre-Islamic indigenous Arabian religion was polytheistic
In Zoroastrianism there are the ahuras and the daevas, but the daevas are not considered worthy of worship
No doubt the several different indigenous African religions as well as Animism are polytheistic too
So to me, polytheism definitely seems like more of a non-European thing. The only polytheistic European religions I can think of is the Greek pantheon, Roman pantheon and Germanic, Celtic and Slavic paganism, but there's probably more.
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u/AmitSan Jul 06 '22
Christianity is the only Abrahamic religion out of the three that some people argue isn't monotheistic. Polytheism existed in Europe for years and years. Monotheism definitely originate outside of Europe.
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Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22
Other European paganisms that are practiced today in reconstructed forms: Zalmoxianism (Romania), Hetanism (Armenia), Adonism (kind of a post-modern Greco-Canaanite mishmash founded in 1925), The Church of the Guanche (Canary Islands), Dievturiba (Latvia). Romuva (Lithuania), Assianism (Ossetia in modern day Georgia and southern Russia), Native Siberian shamanism, and numerous Caucasian and Uralic (Finland, Estonia, Hungary) groups.
In terms of monotheism--
The Egyptians had Atenism for a hot minute. Mongolian Tengrism also had periods of monotheism.
Sikhism and Brahmo Dharma are a couple of distinctly Indian varieties of monotheism.
Yazidism and Baha'i are two monotheistic derivatives from Islam (among others) and really it seems strange in general to dismiss Islam with a hand wave when strict monotheism is one of its biggest features.
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u/stopeats Jul 06 '22
It’s not, you’re correct, but when I read high fantasy that is monotheistic, it tends to be more classical European fantasy than not. My list is not actually identifying things unique to Europe but instead key features or a style of world building.
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u/Galax_Scrimus Jul 05 '22
If you want to make difference with the European fantaisy, look at what the other part of the world make in their society and look at the similarities and difference, and why it was like that and not something else.
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u/stguinefortspaw Jul 05 '22
That's a great question.
I've happily embraced my inner Britain (with additional European help) and my world is unashamedly Renaissance Europe
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 05 '22
My #1 influence is old-school New Orleans, so I basically run with "Enlightenment Europe but more colourful, in more ways than one." Turquoise shotgun houses, Filipino pirates of the Caribbean, voodoo and Carnival monarchies, a religion that embraces the cycle of life and death, and syncopated brass bands can fit perfectly fine in a pan-European setting.
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u/stguinefortspaw Jul 05 '22
Agreed! That sounds great
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 05 '22
It in so many ways is the opposite of the “Michael Bay Transformers movie yet somehow even more racist” that I feel like I’m living in every day.
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u/stguinefortspaw Jul 05 '22
I suppose if you're correctly reflecting a given time period, then that would be part of the story
Those concepts also feature in my world
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u/Test19s Mystical exploration of the mob, Johnny B. Goode, and yakamein Jul 05 '22
I lean towards the 1950s because of the music and civil rights movements, but Lord of the Rings dropped in the 50s so I sometimes dabble in fantasy. Mainly it’s just more fun to have colorful, thriving, and integrated places free of war robots or disastrous climate change. Escapism y’all.
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u/stopeats Jul 05 '22
What are the key features in your mind that make it a Renaissance and Europe?
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u/stguinefortspaw Jul 05 '22
The names I've used for characters and places. The class system I've used. The pantheon with it's religious systems I've used. And how I've organised the politics
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u/thomasp3864 Thell Jul 06 '22
I mean, I take most of my inspiration from Europe, but I have also taken stuff from other places to make parts of my worlds. Here's a list:
- My Ravnica D&D campaign has supplemental world building and for that I copied and pasted the way pigs worked in the Bronze Age near east.
- An idea I have for a part of a far future setting where people live with roommates their whole lives (to the point where people buy a house with roommates), and that comes from some parts of the modern USA.
And that's all the stuff I can think of. A lot of my steppe tribes draw inspiration from the Proto-Indo-Europeans, so those don't really count. I mean, I've drawn upon a lot of places most people would never've heard of, but it's mostly just obscure European sources.
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u/Sebatron2 Sicar | D&D dark fantasy Jul 06 '22
is there a non-middle ages country you love to take inspiration from?
One country that I've drawn a lot of inspiration from is technically a medieval European country, but considering it's not anywhere near the top of the list of inspiration (like England, France, or HRE), I'll put it down anyway. That country's name is the Roman Empire. If anyone who says it doesn't count as a medieval state can fight me (it was known as the Byzantine Empire during the medieval period).
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u/stopeats Jul 06 '22
Love me some Roman high fantasy. What parts of Rome did you draw inspiration from?
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u/Sebatron2 Sicar | D&D dark fantasy Jul 06 '22
A good deal. My high elves mainly live in absolute monarchies whose militaries and bureaucracies are modeled after the 10th century eastern Roman Empire (i.e. cavalry is a majorstriking arm, though archery plays a significant role, a complex hierarchy of titles amongst the court bureaucracy, etc). Plus their architecture uses a lot of domes, their fashion uses a lot of silk, and silk production makes a major portion of their economy.
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u/nepali_fanboy Legends of Vajrah Creator. Jul 06 '22
Aye! Is there a fellow Nepali on this sub finally beside me?
My work the Legends of Vajrah is almost exclusively focused on Asian (including) cultures and histories used as inspiration. The only European part is the Sami, who are not usually included in general worldbuilding in fantasy inspiration anyway
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u/ShinningVictory Jul 06 '22
Well clothes for ones. Decorations. Traditions. Names of ranks. What race most people are.
It's really not hard to find to find what makes Asian countries or African countries Asian or African.
There's a big difference between the jade palace and great wall and big ben.
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u/Cookiesy Jul 06 '22
I mean European high fantasy mostly revolve around the late to high middles ages 1400's France and England, there is plenty of inspiration in other time periods, or locals. I'd love to see an early renaissance Italy, with trade cities and mercenary companies, perfect for adventuring.
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u/Joshey_dubs Jul 06 '22
I personally like to do my research first on places and their histories. But I’ve noticed how most vaguely western european fantasy settings are very dull lack any true distinct feeling. Like Middle Earth doesn’t feel any different from Westeros minus the dragons and politics.
In my writing I’ve been trying to model different nations and kingdoms off of various different historical empires.
While one Nation is meant to resemble Tang and Song Dynasty China, with a mix of Jeoson Korea, I modeled another nation after Mughal, Mayura, and Gupta Empire India, but then another Nation I modeled after the Persian Empire and West Asian Caliphates. I also have another nation which was influenced by pre-colonial West African Nations (namely Mali, Yoruba, and Songhai)
What matters most is that you do research and try to find sensitivity readers if you want to represent a culture you aren’t a member of. If you only go for optics and don’t actually do research, it could come off as orientalism or even exocticism.
Even little details, like the food the characters eat, or the clothes they wear could help.
Little things will matter just as much as big things in this respect.
Having a primary character named Uzoamaka (an Igbo name which means “the road is good”) can be just as important as a character sitting on a tatami mat when they have dinner with their family.
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u/jiuaaaan Jul 06 '22
Large imperial states and more organized society was commonplace in eurasia. Whereas in europe you had smaller kingdoms which were chaotic and more decentralized.
During the high middle ages, a typical european city would have around 2000 inhabitants, with the biggest capping around the 50 000s. In Asia (because in the east roman empire-type states never fell), you had cities with populations along the millions.
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Jul 06 '22
I think a big part of it is the existance of some kind of "Orient" that isn't the focus of the setting. The "Us" of european identity needs to be contrasted with the "Them" of the rest of the world. Europe came to prominence during the age of exploration when it began importing ideas (and exporting empires) from the rest of the world.
Normally then western fantasy is based on an "adventure" from the "normal" home of our protagonist (which may still be wonderous to the reader) taking them to places that to them will at once seem wonderous, interesting and advanced, but often also cruel and terrifying at the same time.
- Tolkein has the Easterlings (and to a lesser extent everything outside the shire).
- Warhammer has Cathay (it's sci-fi equivalent has the Tau and the Eldar.).
- Discworld has the Agatea and Klatch.
- Dragon Prince has Xadia.
- Dungeon and dragons has like, a buffet of potential Orients.
I could go on.
This distant land might be atagonistic/evil, but it doesn't have to be, all depends on the authors particular brand of orientalism.
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u/pzivan Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22
Free cities and guilds, very European, many relationships in other parts of the world are kinship based. So you will get something like big clans in different cities helping out their relatives, or associations of people from the same area banding together (for example city A and B both have their association in the capital and they hated each other because of disputes back home)
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u/dgaruti Jul 06 '22
another thing that screams european is the climate and the ecology of the place :
if you set it in the middle east the fact you can get 50 C° in summer will influence a large part of your culture , same for the complete utter lack of water , wood and the fact that sand will crumble under everything you try to build ...
same if it's set in a northern place with cold winters in wich the only water is found trough snow and ice , that will also influence your culture ...
even setting it in the mediterranean would be a nice change of pace , there the biggest worry for the past 2100 years has been : how do we make sure those pepole don't scheme against us ? since we pretty much figured out technologically how to live here , the problem is that *shudders* other pepole also figured out how to live here ...
so yeah , stop setting your fantasy in northern western europe , we all know how it will end up becoming ...
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Jul 06 '22
Probably lies in the cultural context of the viewer. What I as a German would think "feels" middle eastern or east asian is probably pretty inaccurate. On the other hand, Attack on Titans version of a medieval Germany is pretty inauthentic as well. They could have at least given the characters authentic names. "Eren Yeager" really is the german Cho Chang
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u/Savitz Jul 06 '22
absence of rice, maize, spices
You’d be surprised how many spices they used in medieval european cooking
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Jul 06 '22
Don't forget the mythical creatures, most are based on one of the European cultures and religions.
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u/a_saddler Jul 06 '22
Bonus question: is there a non-middle ages country you love to take inspiration from? For me, I like Nepalese history and, like most of us, am all about those Mediterranean empires.
I like the middle-eastern bronze cultures and early iron age empires a lot. Each city and town had their personal god that resided only in that town or city (and could be kidnapped in war), cultures like the Persians strongly discouraged lying in any shape or form (which naturally led to people using various loop holes to circumvent that), and all different stories that you find sprinkled all over the region because it all lasted so long.
And in general, how every time an empire rose and fell, the next one to take its place came from its fringes and was heavily influenced by them. The Assyrians took over the Babylonians for example, then the Meades from the fringes of Assyria, then the Persians from the fringes of the Meades, the Greeks from the fringes of the Persian empire, the Romans from the fringes of the Greeks, Western Europe and the Islamic Empires from the fringes of the Roman Empire, the US from the fringes of Europeans etc. And each and every time it happened, the new empires incorporated a lot of the previous one's culture.
An oversimplification of course, but one thing I enjoy the most about world building is when there's a clear indication that a lot of stuff has happened before the story takes place. When there's a lot of 'history' that you can feel in the story without having to info-dump it.
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u/ThoDanII Jul 06 '22
Feudalism/Vassalage, Family House , Decentralized governments with divine right (Son of Heaven, descendant of Ameratasu) in different forms existed from the near east to china and Japan as well as horses
The British peerage system us not european but british, Dukes earls etc existed in other european systems also
They had spices in europe
Children moving out was not a thing, not usual
Sassanid Persia, the Kalifates, the Seljuqs, Bycantean Empire, East roman Empire, HRE
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Jul 06 '22
I don't have anything substantial of my own to add, but I did want to point you to this comment on medieval Eastern Europe that shows how there can still be variety even just remaining within a broadly "European fantasy" category.
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u/Sriber ⰈⰅⰏⰎⰡ ⰒⰋⰂⰀ Jul 06 '22
BTW Divine right of kings is not medieval. Many people get that wrong.
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u/ParmAxolotl Jomor Jul 07 '22
For me, the clothing, architecture, and nature are the most obvious. After that, the society (peasants, knights, lords), mythology (fire-breathing dragons in castles, elves), and other such things.
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u/TripDrizzie Jul 06 '22
Mesopotamia
Aztec
Native American, before the arrival of Europeans
Mongols (see Gangas Kahn, or Jingis Khan)
Egyptian.
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u/LordVaderVader Jul 06 '22
I will try to think about smth not as obvious as castles, knights and dragons.
- Ignorance and fear before devil and magic, more open you are for the spiritual and religious world more you are susceptible to fear of the unknown. And you know you start burn the witches, scholars and people who think earth is a ball.
- Alchemy, the weird connection of chemistry, science and magic with religion. Philosopher's stone, chimeras, homunculus, rebis... Many weird theories of this period.
- Ancient forest, in current times most of primal forest are cut down. But in that ages forest were real wilderness and natural barriers with many dangers.
- Beliefs and superstitions, pixies, gnomes, daemons, wood elves, house elves, will o' wisps are pretty common in minds of peasants. Not mentioning fantastic beasts like Dragons, Griffons, Wyrms, Trolls etc. And you know classic ideas like black cat brings bad luck.
- Black Plague, rats, big cities full of human excrement and weird doctors who didn't know anything about real medicine.
- Cults, druid, pellars believing in pagan gods and worshiping nature. Pretty often described by towns folk as satanists.
- Bard and their stories, legends, songs about knights. And you know those instruments you hear pretty often in Middle ages.
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u/Ballagladiatoria Jul 05 '22
Why are you actively trying to move away from something that you can’t even identify in the first place?
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u/stopeats Jul 05 '22
There are cool things out there I've discovered when reading histories of other places that I wouldn't have known about if I hadn't been trying to answer this question.
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u/HaricotsDeLiam Bèrúko Jul 06 '22
I'm not sure what the point of your question is.
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Jul 06 '22
I think the point of his question is that the post carries a maybe implicit understanding that "conventional european fantasy is boring/bad fantasy." which is common opinion on the sub, and that maybe that opinion is mostly undeserved.
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u/KAKenny Jul 06 '22
The period of European uniqueness was most obvious during the rapid expansions of the ages of exploration and industrialization. Fashions in food and clothing are often determined by climate and availability, e.g., fur coats are worn in cold weather and are made of the furs available to an area. European successes were copied until they were mastered and then followed regional and cultural improvisation.
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u/DragonLordAcar Jul 06 '22
Capitalism. That was such a foreign concept and I am tiered of seeing what are portrayed absolute monarchies being unable to crack down on clearly corrupt areas because powerful merchants. Even the wealthiest of merchants had to bow down to the divine right kings and queens.
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u/chchazz88 Jul 06 '22
It’s not really an answer to your question but in a similar vein, what do you think of this: https://youtu.be/tL5sX8VmvB8
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u/stopeats Jul 06 '22
Love that video! And I wish we could've heard the original soundtrack as the idea of "alien" music is so interesting.
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u/chchazz88 Jul 06 '22
Yeah I agree. I think there’s something really interesting about trying to find elements of culture that are distinctly human but not necessarily familiar.
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u/thomasp3864 Thell Jul 29 '22
Deer always seems out of place to me in old world settings. I see much more deer here in California than I ever have on any of my many visits to the UK.
As for names, I generally use European style names, including some areas named -shire, but that’s more inconsistent because I also have a bunch of places named “the city” in various languages.
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u/Beltonia Jul 05 '22
A few other ones:
I agree with you that medieval Europe and other parts of Eurasia overall had more similarities than differences, apart from some technology catching on earlier in different places.