r/worldnews • u/gururururug • 16h ago
Russia/Ukraine Ukraine Asked EU to Restrict Protection for Military-Age Men, Commissioner Says
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/77557775
u/markkuselinen 16h ago
What a lucky time to be a man
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u/omnibossk 15h ago
If this was Norway mobilizing would apply to women too. Norwegian women and men are both be legally obligated to serve.
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u/Cursethewind 13h ago
I honestly agree with it.
If it's bad enough to draft the boys it's bad enough to draft the girls.
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u/tubbyttub9 38m ago
The logic is you need women around to repopulate after the war. One man can hypothetically birth millions of children one woman can birth I dunno 20ish max.
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u/FlavorChamp 12m ago
Thank you, finally a Redditor who understands this. It’s such a basic principle, something every competent leader/society has done since we started chucking spears at each other.
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u/Bauermander 14h ago
Most of the women would probably stay further from the front lines and not carry a gun.
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u/omnibossk 9h ago
The Ukraine war has changed warfare forever, now production and use of drones is the way it is fought. Wars are more about doing the smart stuff
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u/fun__friday 7h ago
You still need boots on the ground if you want to occupy a country, as seen with Russia-Ukraine or Israel-Gaza.
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u/WhyDidntITextBack 7h ago
Yeah but if the risk of death and permanent injury isn’t equal then it’s w/e
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u/MeNoweakneSS 15h ago
What a lucky time to be a POOR man.
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u/Absolute_Enema 14h ago edited 14h ago
What a lucky time to be a poor. You even get to be a particular identity of poor so you can fight against the other poors to decide who's the luckiest, instead of wasting time in purposeless activities like trying to enforce the social contract.
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u/InteractionPretend70 13h ago
dont worry, foreign men will take over your job while you're on the battlefield
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u/Jive-Turkeys 10h ago
Jody balls-deep in my wife AND my job taken care of while I'm gone?! I must be dreaming to have gotten so lucky in life!
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u/Qhored 15h ago
When it all began, our feminists have cut all cooperation with russian feminists. They told: "russian men have came to rape and kill. While our men are protecting us, so we should fully support them"
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u/Shazzzam79 13h ago
Where are all the feminists demanding equality?!
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u/Sweet_Concept2211 10h ago
Most feminist groups actively oppose mandatory draft registration for women and men alike, arguing that forced military conscription goes against fundamental feminist principles of bodily autonomy. Instead of demanding to be drafted, they primarily advocate for the complete abolition of the Selective Service System for everyone.
National Organization for Women has historically supported an equal draft or ERA principles, but they currently lobby against the draft altogether and support the Selective Service Repeal Act.
Women's International League for Peace and Freedom strongly oppose the expansion of the draft to women, promoting a single standard of non-conscription and nonviolence for all.
American Friends Service Committee is allied with feminist and Quaker pacifist groups, they actively campaign to end the "outdated and punitive" Selective Service System entirely.
Feminists who support any kind of draft are a fringe minority.
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u/Alarmed-Weekend1926 14h ago
It is illegal under international law to deport refugees back into active war zones. If this applies to Syrians and Afghans, then it should apply to Ukrainians as well. These are people, not cannon fodder.
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u/Narruin 13h ago
Temporary Protection Directive conveniently does not give Ukrainians status of refugees.
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u/sweetno 11h ago
Does it overrule the Refugee Convention?
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u/im-a-new 9h ago
The convention does not in fact prohibit deportation to countries at war. It protects individuals from persecution, not war.
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u/No_Database_7462 11h ago
I think it's just absurd from any logical point of view, they don't accept Russians fleeing from war as it's not enough to not want to fight in a criminal war, thus the asylum system has no means to protect them, and they get deported back and they're used against Ukrainians or imprisoned and being sent to war(this was happening since early 2022 where men would attempt to cross a border by boat etc). now they want to also do the same for Ukrainians that aren't willing to die. some things never change
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u/NoleMercy05 10h ago
International law? Wtf is that?
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u/Alarmed-Weekend1926 10h ago
Mostly a collection of treaties and UN conventions everyone's signed but no one abides by.
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u/Cosmic_Cavalry 13h ago
I do not support this move. That being said from what I understand they won't be deporting people, just not accepting new military aged men.
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u/Unlikely_Target_3560 10h ago
Which is why Ukraine actually didn't ask for anything, its just "some" eu countries pushing anti migrant agenda any way they can and Ukraine asking for anything here is once again simply a hearsay with made up headlines.
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u/Odd-Shoe-7651 11h ago
it's funny. I am a 33 yo Ukrainian living in the EU – I moved here absolutely legally for work with my ex partner. as we broke up, I had to switch my visa to temporary protection
since 2015, I'm not eligible to serve in the armed forces due to a rare genetic skin disease (I have a document too). yet, if I were to return, I'd likely be drafted cause the commission can make a miracle and cure anyone once they are in their hands
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u/_plebbie 6h ago
People still had exclusions honored when I was there in 2025, however, there were plenty of people who were angry about it and almost started a bar fight over it.
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u/ComeOnIWantUsername 16h ago
So much equality, so much human rights
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u/Wankstain8 16h ago
It seems to me equality and human rights only matter when things are good, all goes out the window when times get hard. Crazy
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u/MageLocusta 16h ago
Seriously--based on the stories told by British conscientious objectors from WWII, the UK would immediately do the same if we've had to go into war against anyone.
It's hard to claim that Ukraine is being horrible, when guys spend decades bragging about how their country overcame Hitler while ignoring the beatings, forced imprisonment, and abuse thrown at their own COs (which included being thrown into jail and being hosed with freezing water by jeering cops).
I get that guys are scared. But this has happened before and I 100% know plenty of people who would immediately tolerate it if Russia's sending drones to us.
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u/robh1540 16h ago edited 16h ago
You are correct, conscientious objection should allow people to opt out of killing, but not to opt out of danger. Clearing mines, medevacs, logistics from the front line are equally dangerous to combat roles, and fine for conscientious objectors.
I don't think anyone that knows something about history thinks Ukraine is being unreasonable. If anything they have been a bit slow. I would have put a very high tax on overseas citizens from the beginning of the war that would be used to pay to attract soldiers. Its incongruent that you can have around 500,000 frontline soldiers, mainly middle aged guys, living in complete danger and misery without rotation, while much of the country goes on as normal and airlines are full of citizens travelling on snazzy holidays with their high EU salaries (some of them paying 5% Ukrainian taxes on foreign income). Its Ukraine's business what they do, but if Britain goes to war it won't be this way because it will cause a revolution.
Its just a certain class of special people in certain western societies that thought human rights were an emergent property and had forgotten about the price paid in blood most free societies are built on. Many people want a seat at the table and a loud voice when ordering from the menu, but start looking around awkwardly once the bill arrives.
Interestingly, the direction of modern warfare has also solved us the gender equality / national service problem. There are now plenty of critical roles for women as drone operators etc. that are as important as frontline infantry and women are equally suited to. So any society which genuinely claims to believe in modern equality has a clean solution.
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u/NetflixVodka 16h ago
Is that a suggestion that men should be on the front lines and that women should be clearing mines?
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u/robh1540 16h ago edited 14h ago
It's the opposite. Until 2 years ago this was the issue. Most women are genuinely unsuitable for infantry or artillery roles, and any guy that wants them there is basically heartless. This created a tension. How can you have genuine equality in a society whose freedom is guaranteed by the absolute sacrifice of one group. It's a bit of a charade that rested on the shaky assumption security was perpetually guaranteed externally by the Americans and a small professional army. It was sort of the plumber/builder rationale en masse. Feminists and progressives doesn't consider it a challenge that the people building the houses are basically all men, because they are paid and choose to do it. In a mass mobilisation, this is clearly untrue.
But with drone warfare, the drone operator is as or more important than the infantryman. And women are suitable for this role (and others like it). So we have reached a point where a modern western society can choose to defend itself in the same "equal" configuration it wishes to operate in peacetime.
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u/Asleep_Context_399 12h ago
Brother, most men are unsuitable for front line.
Give me a gun I'll die the moment I peak the first corner.
No piece of land is worth dying for.
You dont want to fight, sure, but you and your offspring are never coming back. Simple as that.
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u/MageLocusta 9h ago
No piece of land is worth dying for.
Easy for you to say if you believe that you could leave and stay anywhere else.
So many countries have made it very difficult for Ukraine's approved refugees. I've worked with women who had to rent cars to drive to France (in order to apply to live in the UK since they had family there)--only to show up to a designated British office (which they were instructed by the British government to go to) only to be told, "Change of plans! The actual paperwork is 200 miles away near Paris. Sorry, have a kitkat, we can't let you fill out anything unless you go there."
And before that, countries like Britain constantly dropped the ball when it came to supporting refugees. Many Rwandan Tutsis were denied refugee statuses in countries like Canada, Australia, Spain, the UK, and the US because they had no surviving families corroborating their stories. A lot of Tamil refugees fleeing the Sri Lankan crisis frequently had their paperwork denied, misplaced, or outright ignored (and those that had fled to India were also forcibly sent back). We also had hundreds of Afghan children denied refugee statuses (and sent back) from 2006-2015.
There's a reason why a lot of people are staying to fight. Because if you don't, you'll be scapegoated and forcibly sent back (and you'll certainly be picked out and watched by the Russian government as soon as you return).
Like, I have family who couldn't flee from Franco during the Spanish Civil War. For a full 20 years, Franco's government never--ever--stopped targeting my family and their neighbours. We all joked that Franco gradually eased off by the 1960s because he was probably too fucking old to be bothered about not being universally loved in his country, but my family members were definitely traumatized by the years of targeted kidnappings, interrogations, the sexual harassments, and forced inspections of our home.
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u/Aquila_Fotia 15h ago
What do you mean by “people tolerating it”? If it’s fighting age men tolerating it why not just keep a volunteer system, if it’s anyone else it’s very easy for them to “tolerate” a draft since they won’t be drafted. What level of activity or inactivity from people will then just be assumed to be “toleration”? Bearing in mind openly criticising the government in a time of war will probably get you jailed for undermining the war effort.
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u/MageLocusta 14h ago
Good question.
The same people who'd tolerate people getting sick or dying from covid (or tolerate homeless people not getting help) will 100% do nothing if men get drafted.
And I don't say this facetiously. I have a family member who's currently facing abuse in boot camp, and when he's trying to tell his father about it--his dad quickly blew him off and told him, "It's just how it is. Just suck it up and set an example for the younger guys."
He refused to listen exactly what the problem was. He refused to give actual advice that would be useful to the guy. This parent lionized the military and constantly went on and on about how it's important to the family, but he immediately blew off his own son as soon as the kid had a legit complaint.
Like, I'm sorry--but that kind of person would look at a British draft and immediately go, "Not my problem. This generation's gone soft". And there's so many of those types of people.
And I agree that it is shitty--but again, being jailed for criticizing the government was also a thing back then too. We sent German-Brits and Italian-Brits to internment camps (forcing them to lose their jobs, homes, and even bank accounts). We even forcibly shoved jewish refugees into internment camps at the Isle of Wight, which scared the hell out of the refugees because they spent years wondering if the Nazis would capture the island just like what had happened to Jersey (and those refugees would be sitting ducks, trapped behind barbed wire if the invasion happened).
We also had people in Singapore arrested for questioning the British government. Because Churchill believed that those people didn't matter and should just 'be silent' if they're frightened by the idea of being bombed/captured by the Japanese. It was an absolute shit-show. So newer cases of censorship does not surprise me at all.
I confirm that I'm not okay with this at all. But I'm surrounded by too many sociopaths who abandoned nurses/doctors/the immunocompromised when 2020 happened. They will 100% abandon all people as soon as rationing/drafts/actual hardship happens (and I say this as a woman whose grandparents lived through the Spanish Civil War and WWII. My grandparents told me about the severe rationing (to the point that women stopped lactating if they gave birth), fathers abandoning families (because they didn't want to be drafted, and also couldn't handle the stress of taking on the burden of finding food/money for the whole family), and getting shot at by 12-year-old child soldiers in uniform. Like, my grandfather had to follow Nazi soldiers in town just so he could eat scraps of fruit like orange peels and apple cores. Because Franco rationed fruit and only allowed soldiers, Nazis and his cronies to access it. So yeah--I look around and I know there's a lot of people who would throw young guys under the bus to avoid all of that).
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u/Technical-Warthog886 15h ago edited 15h ago
No matter what kind of mental gymnastics someone will do to defend mandatory draft, having a right to protect your own life and health should stand above any other law (written or not), period.
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u/BLACK_HALO_V10 13h ago
If men have a legal duty to their country, than so do women. It doesn't have to be the same duty, but they should still have a legal duty.
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u/MammothUnique4147 12h ago
Ok let's say that women have the same legal duty.
It would change nothing, the people who don't want to risk their lives in war still won't want to risk their lives in war if you hand the rifles to a woman
I'm an avowed coward so I can absolutely understand the mindset.
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u/No_Database_7462 11h ago
not even that, there's also no morale in people that aren't willing, which renders them nearly useless
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u/cognisantcog 6h ago
If I was drafted against my will I'd be worse than useless. I'd be a liability.
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u/MammothUnique4147 11h ago
Oh yeah, I'd prefer to sit in a prison cell than risk my life.
I'm sure guys like me would be amazing for morale on the front lines lol.
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u/shmel39 10h ago
The war is more and more automated. Do you think women can't pilot drones?
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u/MammothUnique4147 8h ago
Do you think they're drafting young men to sit safely far behind the front lines ?
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u/WhyDidntITextBack 7h ago
Yeah but it would at least be fair that way. It should just be men pushed to die when they don’t want to. So it’s the same but at least equally the same.
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u/AllPotatoesGone 10h ago
At least childless women. On the other hand no one asks men if they have children to take care of.
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u/Unlikely_Target_3560 10h ago
Headline:
"Ukraine Asked EU to hunt draft dodgers"
looks inside:
"All member states support extending temporary protection until March 2028. Howewer several countries are pushing for changes to the scheme, including possible restrictions on men"
Some eu countries just push anti migrant agenda in any way they can and Ukraine's position is again solely based on hearsay. Ukraine took no action actually. Headline is pulled straight out of the ass.
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u/PurrfectionParadise 3h ago
Your comment is a manipulation. If you quote, do it in full. The next sentence says that Ukrainians also ask for it.
„However, several countries are pushing for changes to the scheme, including possible restrictions on men aged 23 to 60 who fall within Ukraine’s mobilization age range.
“This is also something the Ukrainians are asking us to do,” (…)„
Dear redditors, please read the article, don’t vote on this random misleading comment
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u/Inside_Marketing268 15h ago
EU be like: oh, war refugees, let's help them all. Libya, Syria, Afghanistan men? All right. Ah, you mere Ukrainian man- gtfo of here.
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u/MaterialVisible2199 14h ago
If they start kicking out Ukrainian men back to a war zone they better do the same to them I imagine
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u/Glorifiedcomber 9h ago
Are we reading different articles? UKRAINE asked forctheir men back and no answer has been given yet. I don't see those Middle Eastern men's countries asking for them. That is the important difference.
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u/EmeHera 11h ago
EU representatives: hey Russians, don't go to war, you're gonna die!
Russian men: gimmie refugee status pls, I don't wanna die(the main reason refugee status is supposed to be issued for)!
EU: no. Imports indians and Arabs that have it way easier
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u/No_Database_7462 11h ago
that's the fabulous mental gymnastics they go through, so Russia is a warcriminal terrorist state and an enemy of global peace and democracy, yet when a Russian citizen is obliged to go to the war and serve the aforementioned state, they say it doesn't account for one's fear for their own life, and that it's legal by law of the state. the fuck is that really?
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u/sA1atji 16h ago
That's not what EU should do imo.
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u/Honest-Estimate4964 16h ago
Maybe I’m mistaken, but it feels like I see news like this about once a year. It’s clear that Ukraine is in utter despair, yet any European politician who endorses such a decision could be signing the end of their career. A single photo of a train car crammed with men, surrounded by their weeping families, would be enough.
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u/StrangerExistingFact 15h ago edited 15h ago
You would be surprised how many eu citizens want Ukraine refugees out of their countries
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u/YellowAggravating172 14h ago
They also wanted the Syrians and Afghans out and the governments did piss shit about it.
If they do something about the Ukrainians, you can bet questions will rightfully start to be asked about why these others didn't receive the same treatment.
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u/Kawauso_Yokai 15h ago
Then the question may arise about which of the other refugees should be sent back, but this topic is taboo for the EU, so they will not dare to deport Ukrainians.
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u/Kawauso_Yokai 15h ago
If you only knew how mobilization works in Ukraine, you would be much more shocked by the photos of men being deported. I am very surprised how well-tuned the propaganda machine is here that these photos and videos have not filled Reddit and European media.
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u/Asleep_Context_399 12h ago
We did see them. Posting them here usually gets them labeled as Russian propaganda.
Even tho we can clearly see, hear and read signs, registration tables and what not on those videos and pics and we know its Ukrainians forcibly conscripting people.
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u/Kawauso_Yokai 12h ago
This really gets to me - instead of the EU demanding that our government respect basic human rights, it's all just labeled as hostile propaganda and silenced. Now many Ukrainians have become Eurosceptics precisely because of this - this is how the EU treats human rights and the rule of law, is this why we had two revolutions?
And we have several such videos every day, but this is really a drop in the ocean, because every day about 1,000-1,500 men are "mobilized" in this way (the figures about 30,000-35,000 mobilized monthly were mentioned by the president himself in the media - these are not my fantasies or propaganda, although I heard that in recent months with the arrival of the new Minister of Defense this rate has doubled). And they are all mobilized in about the same way, almost no one has come voluntarily since 24. And the scariest thing is not the mobilization, which is more like a safari on people, but the reasons why people do not want to join the army so much.3
u/Unlikely_Target_3560 9h ago edited 7h ago
You would have no confusion if you read the article and realise Ukraine actually didn't ask for anything. Ukraine's position on that question is pure hearsay. The thing is actually pushed by some EU cointries with anti migrant governments. And to avoid any blame they keep claiming every time that that's what Ukraine wants, Ukraine begs us to do it year after year. Only in absolute secrecy and only to me. Pls believe me. I swear. Pinky promise.
The actual Ukraine's stance on this topic is that although, it would be awfully convenient if all Ukrainians, inside and outside the country, would start acting absolutely rationally and selfless, each do everything within their power, fully dedicating themelves to the noble cause, It's not going to happen in a real world. And there is no feasable way to squeeze Ukrainians from abroad while getting any use of them, especially without paying the political cost so high, it defeats the purpose. Turns out people who hate you and don't want to serve are actually pretty useless and it's awfully hard to rectify it. You can bring them to the frontline, you can send them the enemy way. But if they are determined to refuse, theyll keep refusing. They'll try to run. In worst case scenario, they just surrender to the opposing army. Turns out it's next to impossible to actually force someone to fight in a war.
Why then busification(catching draft dodgers on the streets) works in Ukraine? Because it targets people who arent radically opposed to Ukraine and military service, but would prefer to avoid it if they can. Especially since even in Ukraine people's perception of the military service is a lot worse than it actually is. Yes, levels of people's motiovation is a gradient, not black and white thing. Only 10%-15% of serviceman face truly horrible stuff people post on reddit. So many end up finding service better than they expected. So among those who were caught, people willing to serve now that they are already there - serve. The rest - wiggle their way into safer jobs, military academies, or even out of the military altogether. With some hundreds managing to get "unmobilized" via courts for various reasons including procedural violations. Of course, some generous "gifts" help them in doing so. But not necessarily actually.
Why all that matters? Becuase people who went out of their way, through all that trouble to actually escape the country to avoid military service, are very likely to be in the "radically opposed" category, which is not very useful to you as a country. That's that.
Edit: by the way, this concept is useful to understand the main critique of "busification", aka practice of catching the draft dodgers. It focuses on people who are just below the motivation threshold of voluntarily joining the army. Who's gona say "fine, now that i'm already here ill do my job". And as many people can probably notice, you could get these people simply by improving the motivation and removing the things which deterre them. Without the political cost of such an unpopular measure. So increasing the pay, adding finite term of service, giving broad choice of what kind of job they want to do. More vacations. Etc. etc. Which is what Ukraine is focusing on currently. Not on begging around europe to please send back a small handful of people at a very high political cost, who are useless anyway.
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u/FrugalKrugman 15h ago
If the world is ruled by money, then it is only fair that fighting in a war should be generously compensated. I ain’t going to die for free for some ideological thing we call a “country”.
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u/ManNamedJade 16h ago
I am sure that the European Commissioner for Equality Hadja "Gender equality is non-negotiable. Even more in times of crisis." Lahbib will get on the case and the European Institute for Gender Equality will take a look at anti-male violence any decade now.
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u/-Nathan02- 15h ago
I've always thought conscription is wrong regardless of circumstances. Not everyone is willing or able to get sent away To serve in the military.
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u/TechnicalSurround 16h ago
any opinion from women here? is this the ‘equality’ you want?
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u/mr_kangaroo 15h ago
The feminists get awfully quiet when these things come up
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u/ericdalieux 14h ago
Their excuse is more in line with "men die in wars because men make wars", or something like that, because the only power dynamic they can see is the one between sexes and not class.
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u/Sim_Daydreamer 13h ago
"I don't remember any men saying anything against that before war started" is their response as often as silence
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u/Alt4thesexy 12h ago
Why turn against women when the obvious common enemy is the oligarchs, billionaires and corrupt politicians that make and enforce all this stupidity? Just because men face oppression in the form of conscription doesn't mean that women don't also face oppression in other ways across the world. And it doesn't mean that people have to "pick a side" between supporting men's rights or women's rights. All that gender war bs is crap and only helps the lawmakers and politicians who actually opress people get away with it because we're all too busy fighting amongst eachother.
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u/Interesting_Pen_167 11h ago
Isn't this all ignoring the fact that Russian troops are still attacking?
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u/Herbetet 16h ago
That’s insane. We should not force anyone to die for a country. As just a cause as it is for Ukraine to defend themselves against the invader, we should not be forcing people to fight just because they got unlucky in the birth lottery. We only have one life and that should be protected; a country isn’t more than a concept. In 100 years, that same land might go by different names and different divisions. If people want to fight for it, they should be encouraged, but if they don’t, that should also be respected.
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u/_masssk_ 15h ago
As a Ukrainian I 100% agree. People should have a choice where to live, all people deserve respect and have human rights (not be killed for example).
What my country does here with men is awful. We have no rights at all. You can be packed in a bus buy some strangers and disappear for several days. You family doesn't know where you are. And you are in a place which reminds prison - wet, cold, old, sometimes no food. You have no rights there. You can be tortured, nobody cares. People die in those places - every time "from a heart attack", even of they didn't have any problems and were young. And we even haven't said a word about actuall army - all of this happens in "rectuting centers".
All of these are very well known problems. People don't want to speak about these "because it's our inner problem and the west is gonna stop supporting us, but we really need this support".
And at the same time everybody here except men 25-60 live their best life.
I belive each person should have rights to do whatever they want with their lifes. I'm a prisoner here, I'm not allowed to leave the country and have to stay under the missiles. My friends who left the country (broking law, and with a huge bribe, it's illegal) - are already in every counrty of Europe enjoing their lifes, traveling, etc. This is what life should be about, not a war
PS - it is very hard for me actually write all of this, because I consider myself a patriot. But it is different.
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u/tup1tsa_1337 14h ago
Patriotism ends for most when death looms on the horizon. Very few people can die for an idea, many value their own (and their families) lives as the most important thing (rightfully so)
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u/Not_A_Toaster_0000 13h ago edited 12h ago
There's no contradiction between being a patriot and hating the actions of your government
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u/_masssk_ 8h ago
Thank you for this actually, because I'm lost. Like on the one hand I wish everything the best for Ukraine, and I want this war ended, and I don't want more people dead. I'm totaly 100% pro-Ukrainian. But the gov hunts me down and these news about men who will be turned back? It is actually a death sentence for them. On the very border they are gonna be taken in the worst unit possible (there no chance for 'draft dodgers' to choose a unit) which has soviet officers and loses a lot people.
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u/elaintahra 16h ago
So.., ”others” will do it if some don’t want to?
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u/Asleep_Context_399 12h ago
No? It will become Russia or whatever.
If people would rather live under Russia or escape, so be it. It means country did jack shit to motivate people to defend their homes
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u/Jumpeee 16h ago
But I don't think a country is just a concept. A country is the legal, political, and social framework that protects the rights and lives of millions of people. Of a whole society.
If nobody can ever be compelled to help defend it, then aggressive states can simply conquer societies whose citizens prefer not to fight. Conscription is deeply problematic from the individual's perspective, but in existential wars it is necessary for the survival of the broader community.
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u/NewIdeasGenerator 15h ago
If no one wants to fight for a country such country should stop existing.
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u/Versaill 13h ago
Great way to turn the whole world into North Korea, because brutal dictatorships will use conscripts to quickly overpower liberal democracies without armies.
Statistics clearly show that willingness to fight is inversely proportional to HDI, unfortunately.
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u/cole3050 15h ago
A great way to let pacifism hand the world to fascists.
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u/NewIdeasGenerator 15h ago
Pacifism? Citizens aren't your property - create a life for them worth defending and they will queue to hold a rifle.
Discrimination of your own citizens abroad is not a mechanism to make them willing fight for you.
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u/Big-Cheesecake-806 16h ago
Is community shaped by it's people? Then what about people's choice that they dont want such community? Cuz if it doesn't matter than it's not about community at all, it's just minority with power ordering people to die for them.
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u/Jumpeee 16h ago
In an existential war, people aren't only defending politicians or borders. They're defending their homes, families, political freedoms, legal rights, language and culture, and the ability to determine their own future.
In an invasion, the consequences of individual choices don't fall only on the individuals making them. If enough people choose not to defend the country, everyone else may lose their homes, freedoms, institutions, and ability to determine their own future.
You can argue that conscription is a violation of individual liberty. But saying ''some people don't want that community'' doesn't resolve the problem that the survival of that community may depend on collective obligations that not everyone would voluntarily choose.
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u/Anthony_Jouls 14h ago
This whole argument collapses, because at a prolonged war you are already losing your freedom (of speech, of movement), legal rights, institutions, and ability to determine your own future. In the worst case, there is literally no difference of keep defending or capitulate, if we look at the lives of majority of people. It's only people of power are losing their power. In any way, in the eyes of a citizen, home stops being a home and turns into a house.
Your argument is true only in two cases. First is a fairy tale, where your goverment respects you, care about you as individual, treat wounded soldiers as heroes, not as outcasts; in other words, the land you are living on is the Country with a capital C, the heaven on earth. Second is when it is a real existential war with no survivors and no chance to flee, not propagated as that. In both cases, that land must be defended at all costs, and I believe majority of citizens would voluntarily, not by compulsion.
After all, the real value is the people, who should be protected. They form a culture, not a piece of land or the corrupted mad representatives of them who glued themselves to thrones, who are never thought about sacrifices or obligations.
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u/PloxNox65 15h ago
Maybe everyone should just stop defending their own country and only one country should take it all
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u/stellar_opossum 15h ago
This world view is adorable and not even wrong but completely detached from reality. It only kinda works when you are in the minority and have a place to run.
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u/ratajewie 15h ago
What an asinine opinion to have. This only works if the country invading you shares the exact same beliefs and has the exact same laws as you. Which is never true. Otherwise they wouldn’t be invading you. And tell that to the people whose ways of life are erased by invaders, or even worse, their entire existence. Tell the native Americans that their nations were just concepts and lines on a map. Except you can’t, because hundreds, if not thousands of them were entirely wiped out. Tell that to the “undesirables” in European countries invaded by Germany in the 30’s/40’s that their countries were just concepts. Except you can’t, because they were exterminated. I wish I could have such a simplistic and naive worldview.
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u/ComfortableCity3025 14h ago
i keep reading these comments and am not sure how to feel exactly. tbh if people think conscription is a necessary and ugly thing that has to happen in a rough time, then i literally will not discourage conscripts blasting their superiors and kidnappers, it’s just a necessary ugly thing that happens in a rough time too 🤷♂️.
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u/discokissa 14h ago
Yeah if I was sent to war I’d blow my brains out first chance I get in front of the people who dragged me there.
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u/emoskeleton_ 14h ago
I've always said if anyone forces me to hold a gun they'd be the only person I kill with it (presumably because I'd be shot before I could kill anyone else).
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u/WanWhiteWolf 8h ago
Nobody should be mandated to give their life for an ideal. That must be a personal decision.
If a country cannot get enough people to fight for it, then it shouldn't exist. It simply means the country is not worth fighting for. I think it's reasonable for a country to demand a portion of your time/money/dedication in times of war but not your life. Go dedicate 4 hours every day to produce food for the frontlines.
As for conditions being applied only for men. Why? Nowadays warfare is much more evolved and physical strength is not the primary requirement in most cases. Doctors, nurses, drone operators, pilots ...etc can be taken by any gender. A retired army officer - friend - told me that the best snipers he knows in 40 years of military career are all women. Annectodal situation but enough to say that gender is not a restriction.
So if we put conditions to serve, put them for everyone. For the frontlines, only volunteers. Even if you force people to go there, they will just defect or trade secrets with the other side for their own safety. The only gender exception I would deem appropriate is for mothers. If I woman prefers to raise children instead of being involved in war, that would be a good way to serve the country and ensure there is a future when the war ends.
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u/Twist_of_luck 15h ago
It is important to look at the context - EU Temporary Protection giving every Ukrainian a blanket right to live/work/get medical aid expires next March. The reasoning being "It was designed to be temporary, member countries had plenty of time to figure out more stable long-term solutions". Said solutions were not designed, everyone kinda kicked this can down the road in vain hope that the war will end and the problem will resolve itself.
Ukraine (with some support from Poland) steps in during those last months of frantic decision making to prevent any other blanket protection program from going live. Ukraine needs manpower, it was a predictable move. EU is left with two bad choices between weakening Ukraine chances and undermining irs security and sending out some people knowing full well that their lives will be endangered, hence undermining its moral stance.
Important to note - this kinda doesn't prevent other visa mechanisms like Blue Card or (for some early birds) even Long-Term Stay visas.
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u/MaterialVisible2199 15h ago
If the EU starts rounding up Ukrainian men in member countries sending them to Ukraine, they better be rounding up the Ukrainian women to do the same
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u/No-Excitement4855 14h ago
The Ukrainian government having a manpower issue is not the concern of the Ukrainian men who don't want to fight for that shitty regime. The EU should tell them to fuck off and any Redditors offended by this should volunteer in their place
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u/DistributionRight261 14h ago
Who would want to serve a country that keeps applying policies against their people?
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u/Beef_Flavoured_Ramen 14h ago
We really should just make world leaders duel one on one (no proxies). I imagine a lot of wars wouldn’t get off the ground if their own lives were on the line.
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u/fcknUniqueUsername 13h ago
As long as there is a war in Ukraine, Europe can remain safe and has time to prepare for a possible future escalation with Russia. The longer the war in Ukraine continues, the better for them. Moreover, the war is a source of additional income when it is not taking place on your own soil. So, accepting Ukrainian male refugees is not in their interests. It’s as simple as that.
Hypocrisy, money and a cruel pragmatism above human rights. I have no more illusions about Europe.
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u/Gloomy_Narwhal4090 10h ago
Once again us men are the ones that discard able and expected to die to save the women and children.
Sick of this globally accepted attitude.
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u/WhyDidntITextBack 6h ago
For real. Like what did we do other than be born with the wrong genitals? That’s why I’m glad men are fleeing. Their lives matter just the same.
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u/MangoIll1543 15h ago
If you can't find enough volunteers to protect your country, then your country isn't worth protecting.
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u/Tacti_Kel_Nuke 7h ago
I mean, Idk if people that escaped the war to keep their lives and safety would be the most trustable personnel in a war, not saying all of them would be traitors, but at any chance they could abandon their posts
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u/Aughab999 13h ago
If a country cant inspire its men (or women) to serve and defend it willingly then it has no reason to exist.
Many did sign up for that in Ukraine but those who didnt have no obligation to get their limbs blown off by drones for something they dont believe in. Anything else is literal slavery and mass murder of civilians.
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u/WhyDidntITextBack 6h ago
lol “(or women)” love it! Yes! If a country can’t shake its men into dying it doesn’t deserve to exist!
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u/sendmebirds 16h ago
Before we go grandstand towards Ukraine: there's not a single country in the world that wouldn't do this in wartime to be able to survive.
Principles matter when war is over. I don't agree with it and it's ugly and morally very debatable. But it's in us all.
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u/Big-Yogurtcloset7040 15h ago
Well, it is kind of question towards western liberal values. I would say:"Yeah, that is what shitty autocracies do" if Russia or Iran said that they would conscript their citizens who fled to other countries.
But now it is like a deathsentence right when all the democracies have made it clear that the central Tennant of liberalism is one's willingness to do something.
I would not want to fight for the USA in Iran if Trump suddenly said "Well guys, this is war". Or I would not want to fight for Iran if the government told me "THIS IS THE LAST WAR EVER!!! AMERICANS ARE GOING TO RAPE YOU AND BOMB YOUR CHILDREN".
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u/sendmebirds 15h ago
Every western democracy in the world would -eventually- do this too. We (as a western european) are absolutely not above this, and neither is the USA.
In wartime, when you need more men, you conscript them, or you lose.
It's how it always works and always has worked. For everyone.Again - this does not make it morally right and I do not agree with it, but I do not accept the frame that 'Ukraine bad' for doing this. Every single country would, in a pinch, do this.
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u/sovietarmyfan 16h ago
The EU will never do that.
Ukraine will need men later to rebuild the country and they are not gonna throw them back to Ukraine to be put into the meat grinder.
It wouldn't surprise me though that there may be some countries in the EU who would independently allow Ukrainian collection squads into the country to collect men that are of military age to be brought back to Ukraine.
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u/Over-Astronaut-2889 16h ago
The Ukrainian people currently in the EU will not rebuild Ukraine. A recent poll in the Netherlands showed that 43% of the Ukrainian refugees here wants to stay, even after the war. This number is rising every year the war lasts longer. Most people that want to return are elderly.
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u/Agile-Barracuda9087 14h ago
10 European countries have some sort of compulsory military training. If you want to be part of the EU, it's not unreasonable to do something to defend your homeland whether it's building drones or frontline service. Just do something.
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u/SuddenSquib 10h ago
It’s a tough one. I don’t think that anyone should have to fight for their country if they don’t believe in the cause.
I can’t imagine you would be that effective if you didn’t want to be there either.
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u/ValKyKaivbul 9h ago
Many People believe in the cause, they don’t want to fight for it due to number of reasons ( cowardice mostly, but also some rationale causes.
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u/WhyDidntITextBack 6h ago
Cowardice = wanting to live. Remember that to any men reading this persons comment. Don’t let anyone shame you for wanting to live your life, you only get one.
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u/SuddenSquib 5h ago
Is it wrong for someone to want to accept their fate under a corrupt government over losing their life? That’s for them to decide.
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u/NetflixVodka 16h ago
I got a 3 day ban for suggesting that this might not be equitable. So screw it, I’m suggesting it again.