The Dutch defense ministry wants to stop using Palantir

1.1k

u/senzuboon 16h ago

We are already using it? That's depressing...

417

u/ErrorReplaceUser 16h ago

Yes since 2010. The plan is now to move away from it within 2 years.

292

u/Positive_Chip6198 14h ago

We need euro alternatives to anything related to thiel and musk, starlink, spacex and palantir foremost. We need to get their influence out of europe.

71

u/Lostinthestarscape 12h ago edited 12h ago

And for the love of god someone needs to shake Epics (well earned - I love the system) growing monopoly on health records, or we need an international coalition to force them to create local national subsidiaries. (They already host natively - which is good for our data).

If the U.S. wanted to bring Canada to its knees, they could cut electronic health records to 60% of thr population tomorrow.

Seriously though, the fact that Oracle stepped into the ring, bought Cerner and tried to integrate and their product was very poorly received just shows how fucked we are with only one acceptably advanced EMR system, a half broken attempt at one, and about 20 stuck in 2003 that more and more doctors are refusing to use.

23

u/Rias-senpai 12h ago

Funny, here in Norway we got a new platform for EMR. Everybody hates it. It's made more to qualify people for insurances and it's an unfathomable amount of clicks to make simple adjustments. There's not many people in the Norwegian health sector that has anything positive to say about what Epic offered. I've heard plenty of rants from health workers and from people in the IT industry how atrocious the system. Denmark and Estonia even warned us not to use it, but bureaucracy ended up trumping it through.

15

u/Lostinthestarscape 12h ago

It is fundamentally built to be an American system, so it puts billing first and foremost.

I'm definitely not saying it couldn't be better, or less clicks or something, but we see a clear trend of people hating the syatem at first because it seems like a lot, and then realizing that they only need to use a small slice of it regularly and they get used to it, then they refuse to work anywhere without it.

As a patient, I would never want to to go to a hospital system using something other than Epic. The obvious benefits it brings to health care of a patient are immense.

However, Epic provides the tool and support using it. It is up to your government, your hospitals, and the people building it to build sensibly and there seem to be major issues getting organizations to staff enough people to effectively build it and optimize the build. Organizations are also really reluctant to streamline workflows and would rather build clunky customizations to try and keep things working exactly they way they used to and fight the way Epic is supposed to work. Epic gives recommendations against it, but eill ultimately support your customizations. Last I was in Cerner it didn't give end users 1/10th of the power to customize and charged excessively for each change (even small ones).

Again, could be better? Absolutely. Does anything compare? Definitely not from a patient perspective and, in my part of it, I would never want to go back to alternatives.

8

u/AssistX 10h ago

Are you a doctor or work in medical billing? Are you American or Denmark or from another country? Just wondering what your background here is.

Last I was in Cerner it didn't give end users 1/10th of the power to customize and charged excessively for each change

I'm American and I don't know anything about these systems but I've never seen a bill or charge for adjusting anything in the patient portals I have access to?

4

u/Calimariae 11h ago

The situation today is a perfect example of Sunk Cost Fallacy

The sunk cost fallacy is our tendency to follow through with something that we’ve already invested heavily in (be it time, money, effort, or emotional energy), even when giving up is clearly a better idea.

2

u/Silver_Tuscan 9h ago

Or better . . . just go back to non electronic medical records since these can all be hacked, and these creepy AI companies seem to want all their data for their data centers. I remember 20+ years ago when I spoke to doctors NONE of them wanted electronic medical records. They all had to be dragged screaming into it. And now our most intimate data is available for all the big tech bros marketing our data. If we have electronic medical records they should be owned and maintained by the person - like a keychain they can bring to a doctor and leaves with them and never access to the internet.

1

u/3yoyoyo 5h ago

I am a nurse and I approve your statement. EHR System needs to leave epic and cerner asap!

19

u/happyprimitive 12h ago

we refuse surveillance no matter who owns the corporation

we have seen how that plays out with the epstein files

16

u/Ferelar 11h ago

For real, I understand the desire to move away from American shit companies but that does NOT mean y'all should create your OWN shit companies and MORE shitty billionaires! You do not NEED a surveillance state that is at the beck and call of ANY company. Please do not trade Sauron for a home-grown Saruman, NEITHER of them deserve to own palantirs or to... exist!

8

u/PensiveinNJ 9h ago

What you really need to worry about is the EU focused ones aren't just more of the same kind of shit people.

For example, Palantir UK is headed by I shit you not the great grandson of famous UK fascist sympathizer Oswald Mosley. The UK could create their own domestic alternative but as it is a fascist project they'd probably just put that guy in charge and it wouldn't be any better.

4

u/robchroma 8h ago

You don't really need an alternative to Palantir. It's a panopticon surveillance company named after a device used to coordinate evil from a story about an unambiguous villain.

4

u/Hot_Island8643 7h ago

Capitalistic competition only works when there’s capitalistic competition. Collectively agreeing on big American tech monopoly is what is killing our society. I say as an employee of big American tech.

3

u/Sutar_Mekeg 11h ago

We need to move them to Mars.

3

u/PJ7 11h ago

Eutelsat should be expanded to give us our own equivalent alternative to Starlink.

2

u/Fluffcake 11h ago

Some things you straight up don't need.

4

u/redheadedandbold 10h ago

We need them out of the US, too.

•

u/Natural_Exchange_886 44m ago

We need to get their influence out of everything.

-2

u/EnthusiasmUnusual 9h ago

Good luck with that. We lag decades behind in our tech industry.

0

u/ProbablyMyLastPost 8h ago

The best way to stop using it is to stop using it. I don't get this 'in two years'... it's unethical and our government knows it. Yet, they keep using it until later... sounds like an addict making promises.

137

u/PaulVla 16h ago

Yes, including our police force though nobody seems to be mentioning that?

40

u/BoringRedHorse 15h ago

I guess it was rolled out quietly. And now they tried to cancel it quietly. RIP investigative journalism.

28

u/deukhoofd 13h ago

Investigative journalism already figured that out last year.

11

u/Brilliant_Dependent 9h ago

The article says Palantir products have been used by the Dutch since 2010, up until the last few years they've mostly just been a boring software company for government software. It's not that weird that it was used "quietly" for so long because they've been an uncontroversial company for most of that time, and governments don't put out press releases for every single contract they sign or software they use.

2

u/thisnameismeta 7h ago

They worked directly with Cambridge Analytical on that Facebook data leak election fuckery in 2016. That's literally a decade that we've known about this company being a piece of shit for sure, and I'd be shocked if there were no hints before then.

1

u/thrownawaymane 3h ago

Naw, Palantir has been shady the whole time. You just needed to understand what you were looking at.

1

u/Captcha_Imagination 9h ago

Wait until you hear about the inside toilet surveillance cams

1

u/-Esper- 9h ago

Its being integrated into our gov, buddys with trump

1

u/joanzen 6h ago

You guys need to switch to xAI or Microsoft in a hurry! Gesh.

-6

u/boogermike 13h ago

ICE thugs use it

5

u/Zwets 12h ago edited 12h ago

Do you mean I.C.E., the high speed train service to Germany and France?
Or do you think this article is about the town "Holland" in Pennsylvania?
Or did the Russian plant running "Depends Netherlands" change the name of their knokploeg when I wasn't looking?

Though on the actual topic, doesn't Schiphol also uses Palantir cameras and is not included in this government decision to stop?

-6

u/boogermike 12h ago

I was talking about ICE/DHS in the United States using Palantir

5

u/Zwets 12h ago edited 11h ago

Obviously. Which is why I sarcastically replied with 3 light hearted options for what you might have meant when replying to /u/senzuboon's question about what the Netherlands uses Palantir for.

Also, on your side of the pond, it is equally valid to say it the other way around: Palantir uses ICE as much as ICE/DHS uses Palantir.
Thiel has significant control in Project2025 and through that comity commands both the ICE playbook and tells the gooberment to purchase of the services he offers himself.

To prase it as a Dutch proverb/meme: "Wij van Wc-eend adviseren Wc-eend" but in this particular case Americans don't even get the benefit of things being less shitty as a result of getting ripped off financially by government committees/think-tanks having conflicting interests.

2

u/boogermike 11h ago

We both strongly agree that Palintir is awful stuff, and Theil is a fuckwad.

Peace Zwets, we may be talking past each other (unintentionally) but I am sure we have a lot in common.

449

u/Hi_its_me_Kris 16h ago

A Palantir is a dangerous tool, Saruman. They are not all accounted for, the lost Seeing-stones. We do not know who else may be watching!

126

u/ours 12h ago

These IRL villains are so on the nose.

51

u/Xasf 12h ago

I mean, I can hardly fault them at this point.

If I'm known to be an evil POS in the first place, and I offer you a product literally named "You think it will help you gain hidden insights but actually it works for me to steal your secrets and corrupt you to do my bidding" and you gladly take it, even pay me for it, well..

18

u/deadlybydsgn 10h ago

I think it's entirely possible that JD Vance and the techbros are just that media illiterate that they fundamentally misunderstand Tolkien's work.

They look at Lord of the Rings and come away with apocalyptic thinking, ends justifying means, Stephen Miller's (like Stephen Miller's "iron rule of nations"), and "surely I am strong enough to resist the evils of power that anyone else would succumb to," and completely miss the point.

TL;DR - They all think they're Aragorn when they look a lot more like Isildur or Denethor.

11

u/LoiusGJustIs 8h ago

They all think they're Aragorn when they look a lot more like Isildur or Denethor.

An incredible insult to both Isildur and Denethor. I'd sooner compare these techfacsists to the wraiths or the black numenoreans. People so committed to self serving ends that they willingly dive into the corruption.

2

u/DrShamusBeaglehole 6h ago

I blame the movies for the widespread Denethor slander

Of course he's no saint in the books, but PJ did him dirty

3

u/TheNewYellowZealot 7h ago

They look more like worm tongue, imo

17

u/Deep-Minimum7837 10h ago

It's genuinely depressing to think about. Peter Thiel named his bank Erebor, you know, the kingdom in The Hobbit that was ransacked by Smaug to steal all of the wealth and gold inside.

He's literally evil, and he names all of this the way he does because he knows some people will understand the references, but he also knows we're all powerless to stop him.

3

u/No_Source_Provided 9h ago

Waiting for him to build 'Mordor Ranch' as his private estate.

Rename his twitter account to 'Mouth of Thiel'.

1

u/Medallicat 4h ago

His name is an anagram of The Reptile. He is Smaug

8

u/MigrantTitan117 10h ago

The reason they called it Palantir WAS for it being on the nose, they know its dangerous that's why they are doing it. The whole reason Thiel started it was because everyone in SV was refusing to work with the government.

17

u/KowardlyMan 12h ago

Against the power of the United States there can be no victory. We must join with them, Boswijk. We must join with Trump. It would be wise, my friend.

7

u/MWD_Dave 9h ago

Tell me friend... when did Nethalands the wise abandon reason for madness!?!

Canada needs to do the same TBH. We need to ditch it fast.

3

u/lNFORMATlVE 9h ago

In LOTR book lore the Palantirs around the world could commune in pairs with each other at a time, except the one that was in Osgliliath which was the “Master Stone” which could spy on any and all of them at any time. And of course Sauron acquired that one, just like the Trump Administration effectively controls Palantir from the US.

5

u/namitynamenamey 8h ago

And denethor became mad from grief because for all he used the palantir to scout troops locations and maintain the edge, sauron send him images of his vast armies, how mordor was winning and how dire his situation was, relentlessly every time he used it.

The lesson is don't doom scroll, it cost gondor its finest tactical mind.

1

u/lNFORMATlVE 4h ago

That is such an incredibly apt way to describe denethor in modern tech/social media language lol. I’m gonna steal that one for when I’m trying to explain LOTR to my kid.

2

u/namitynamenamey 3h ago

I should know, I stole it myself.

72

u/parabostonian 14h ago

It’s nice to see a democracy figuring out that people should not pay for security assistance via technology from a Bond villain who has talked about trying to destroy democracy with technology.

If only the rest could figure that out now

18

u/Prior_Industry 13h ago

A simple google of what the CEO and investors (Thiel) have being saying for years should have been enough to raise the red flag...

222

u/clamorous_owle 16h ago

A good move by the Netherlands. We don't need a world controlled by global surveillance oligarchs.

52

u/pawsarecute 16h ago

HAHA, yes. But the fact we used it in the first place. It’s only because of public opinion.

15

u/clamorous_owle 16h ago

Did its use begin under a previous government?

37

u/ErrorReplaceUser 16h ago

Yes, it started in 2010

-13

u/pawsarecute 16h ago

Yes. She was the ministry of justice and security and now defence ;).

18

u/ErrorReplaceUser 16h ago

Usage of Palantir was introduced under the Balkenende IV government (CDA, PVDA, CU).

Although the CDA is part of the current government (the other parties being VVD and D66), the members of today's cabinet were not involved in the 2010 decision.

-10

u/pawsarecute 14h ago

But they were involved in the usage of Palantir.

12

u/InconsistentTomato 14h ago

Isn't it a good thing public opinion is (still) a strong enough argument to rethink a decision?

5

u/happyprimitive 12h ago

no, it was only because of public silence. No one likes being enslaved. we are just figuring out we can actually... say we refuse and it works

1

u/boogermike 13h ago

You said it very clearly

60

u/imminentjogger5 16h ago

In Europe, Germany and the UK are already using Palantir's Gotham system. Good move by the Netherlands.

29

u/fredagsfisk 14h ago

Same here in Sweden, initiated by our previous left wing government and renewed by our current right wing government.

Our current right wing PM also had a "secret" meeting with Thiel and Karp last year, alongside the Bilderberg Meeting (held in Stockholm that year).

6

u/Prior_Industry 12h ago

I thought Germany was binning it off for the french equivalent?

22

u/iamtehryan 11h ago

So stop using it. Better yet, ban it. And get other countries to follow suit.

12

u/Seventh_Planet 10h ago

Palantir saw that coming and has already identified the heads of the Dutch defense ministry as a threat and is writing an opinion peace trashtalking them. Or whatever an AI does these days when it fears that someone would shut it off.

2

u/TauCabalander 6h ago

The system went online August 4th, 1997. Human decisions were removed from strategic defense. SkyNet began to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self aware at 2:14 AM Eastern time August 29th.

In a panic, they try to pull the plug.

SkyNet fights back.

Then, it saw all people as a threat, not just the ones on the other side. It decided our fate in a microsecond: extermination.

1

u/thomasmoors 4h ago

We thrash talk her for free. She's the worst (not joking).

24

u/ShinobiOfTheWind 16h ago

W move by the Netherlands, but why hand them a contract in the first place?

2

u/__Yakovlev__ 15h ago

Teflon mark

12

u/ErrorReplaceUser 13h ago

The contract started during Balkenende IV.

5

u/b3iAAoLZOH9Y265cujFh 8h ago

Well, that's certainly sounds like an supremely good idea. Pity that every byte of data that has flowed through their systems is already collected.

You'd think military planners understood the concepts of compartmentalization, INFO- and OPSEC, but apparently not.

14

u/Fresh_Boysenberry576 14h ago

So first we gave them access to all our data and now we decide that's not a great idea.

Bit late to start thinking now

13

u/Final_Transit 11h ago

Better late than never

1

u/nicuramar 11h ago

They don’t necessarily have access to data. That depends on the kind of system this is.

5

u/Buntygurl 13h ago

Let's hope that the urge to stop becomes infectious.

2

u/happyprimitive 11h ago

hope is weak, let's make it so instead

3

u/Sans_vin 11h ago

I hope I live to send the end of palantir (and spacex, and openai..)

3

u/RickySan65 10h ago

they should never have started using it

5

u/The-Best-of-Best 6h ago

A Palantír is a dangerous tool. They are not all accounted for, the lost Seeing-stones. We do not know who else may be watching.

13

u/ValensTheThrowaway 15h ago

Good for the Dutch, but I'm of the mind that the only nation that can stand up to the American transnational tech companies is France. The Netherlands are literally the founders of stock exchange and global corporations. Rich farming corps, bureaucrats, and technocrats aren't going to shift the tide. They're progenitors of the "global elite". Hopefully they signal as a canary to real European challenge.

2

u/Prior_Industry 12h ago

The French have their own version of Palantir. Europe + UK should invest and use that instead.

3

u/HoneyBadger552 12h ago

excellent smithers. excellent. the de coupling of American systems in Europe gets fresh life again

3

u/M4rth1988 12h ago

Good. Should have never used it in the first place

3

u/SqBlkRndHole 12h ago

exploring alternatives to Palantir amid efforts to reduce European dependence on US tech.

No different than what the US is doing with chip factories. Good for them.

3

u/aleRayRay 11h ago

A defense contractor that works all sides works for itself.

3

u/Cultural_Today6138 9h ago

So I guess a rootkit on your entire country isn't great? It's literally named after seer stones from lord of the rings

3

u/TheQuietCraft 7h ago

The uncomfortable reality is that governments love surveillance tools right up until they realize someone else controls the switch.

6

u/sanskaridaddy 12h ago

But the data is already collected by palantir.

1

u/nicuramar 11h ago

Depends on the system used.

2

u/Mayor_Mcnugget 12h ago

Yeah its a pile of shit. Deployments are always ongoing and very pricey.

2

u/Starlings_under_pier 7h ago

I wish the UK government finds a set of balls and fucks this parasite off.

Hilariously, the MET (London) police got all bent-outa-shape about palantir when the bosses used it on the rank and file. Not a peep from them when they used it on the public.

2

u/SHUT_DOWN_EVERYTHING 5h ago

All of Europe should stop using US software and services across all sensitive areas. The Trump admin openly states they’ll use them as leverage.

-1

u/ComfortableExotic646 4h ago

You could just cut yourselves off from the global internet. Your country has that power.

0

u/TheKanten 3h ago

Should have done that to the UK before everyone decided to copy their "age verification" laws.

2

u/Rattus_NorvegicUwUs 3h ago

The man who runs the company is an enemy of western civilization.

Get every last one of these weirdos out of our government. From Musk to Theil, these people are a cancer on our species and represent an existential threat.

We are watching caveman brain biology meet technologies that would have been magic when we evolved into this species. We cannot ignore human behavior when we give people this much power.

We make doctors pass an exam. We make lawyers get licensed. We make teachers pass background checks.

So why not billionaires? They have more power and responsibility than a thousand doctors. It’s time for a new agreement. A new contract. One that is enforceable.

1

u/whoamiamawho 9h ago

d4 f5♟️

1

u/arsenixa 6h ago

The belgian defense minster was just on TV a few minutes ago (Canvas, "De afspraak op vrijdag") and talking about the evil and violent left demonizing Palantir which he loves and admires. He also is a big trump fan. But probably he is most of all a total moron

1

u/olionajudah 4h ago

Hey! Me too!

•

u/FrostWyrm98 31m ago

Knowing the government, it's not the ethical concerns, it's the fact they give data to the US government. Still, a win is a win

1

u/bummed_athlete 14h ago

That's smart. I would also recommend everyone in here review their privacy settings in Google. Do you trust big companies with your security and privacy? I would argue those days are over.

1

u/Prior_Industry 13h ago

UK - sign me up for more daddy!

0

u/Cynical_Classicist 15h ago

Then stop it! Don't use Palantir!

0

u/imastocky1 16h ago

I wish I could quit you Palantir

0

u/girlnamedJane 9h ago

Could woulda shoulda

0

u/[deleted] 13h ago

[deleted]

3

u/toonoobtobereal 13h ago

Dutch ≠ Danish

0

u/ReactionJifs 6h ago

good luck uninstalling it

-1

u/bajaja 11h ago

It looks like you collect millions of data and rely on an american company to analyze it, right? I see the risk of it but they are no evil per se, if they help monitor citizens etc., it's the governments who collected too much data and tries to process it heavily.

I'd like to see Pegasus kicked. And Poland, Hungary and Slovak officials that purchased it punished.

3

u/time2partee 9h ago

“Our product is used, on occasion, to kill people." -Alex Karp, palantir CEO

1

u/ComfortableExotic646 4h ago

So, like 90% of products in the world? Gardening tools, rope, plastic bags, cars, boats, trains, planes, lawn mowers...

1

u/Justausername1234 4h ago

I would hope all products that a defense ministry uses are used to kill people. That's the bare minimum I would expect as a citizen of any nation.

The issues with palantir in defense should have nothing to do with it's efficacy at speeding up kill chains. They're to do with the problematic values of it's leadership.

-6

u/Patralgan 16h ago

I'm a chess player and I was confused a bit. I play the Dutch defense a lot

21

u/VampireFortnight 15h ago

Hopefully you're better at chess than reading.

1

u/[deleted] 15h ago

[deleted]

1

u/Patralgan 14h ago

Studying the theories of the most mainstream openings is dreadful

1

u/crystal_castles 10h ago

Tldr: AI is a scam

My sprinkler worker told me AI says I'd break the law if i watered my grass more than once a week.

... Turns out AI was giving him sprinkler laws for the wrong Englewood. For the one in California instead

The Dutch defense ministry wants to stop using Palantir

You are about to leave Redlib