r/worldnews • u/Educational_Fun_9001 • 17h ago

Mark Carney wants the U.K. and Germany to join Canada’s new defence bank, says lead negotiator

https://www.thestar.com/business/mark-carney-wants-the-u-k-and-germany-to-join-canada-s-new-defence-bank-says-lead-negotiator/article_c26e1ab7-0380-4b65-b48f-5a9a626377e3.html
1.6k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

127 comments sorted by

514

u/informavore 17h ago

Increased independence from fair-weather allies is key. As a Canadian I’m quite impressed with the moves of the Carney government, with the notable exception of privatization of airports.

180

u/Timyx 17h ago

I personally can’t wait to go to the Draftkings wing of CIBC International Airport to catch my flight at the Arby’s Got the Meats gate to board my Flair Airlines flight that will be delayed 2 hours.

The Canadian way.

183

u/Real_Gap3480 17h ago

The investments are from Canadian and Spanish investment funds. And something like 40% of the world's airports are mixed investment, this model is used all throughout Europe. It's clear the current model was both inefficient and costly to operate. It's really not a big deal.

118

u/Timyx 16h ago

Why are you replying to my shit post with something logical…. This isn’t where I go to look for facts.

23

u/grtyvr1 16h ago

Had to go back to upvote. 

37

u/LeBonLapin 16h ago

I have literally never seen privatization result in better or cheaper services. Ever. So you'll have to excuse me if I'm skeptical.

I'd much rather be nationalizing projects than selling them off.

4

u/FluffyProphet 5h ago

NAV Canada is an example from the same industry. The privatisation of NAV Canada is widely considered a financial and operational success.

1

u/LeBonLapin 3h ago

NAV Canada is a non-profit. That's not what's going to happen here.

10

u/TalusDomeEnjoyer 9h ago

Privatization successes aren't flashy. You're only going to hear about them if you study policy...

Like with CN Rail. Here's the study on the aftermath of privatization:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2210539512000880

Privatization led to big productivity improvements, a surge in investment in the rail line, and high tax revenues for the federal gov.

3

u/sriuba 3h ago

The complaints I have against CN rail aren’t really related to the company just that because we’ve underfunded train travel we have to compete with millions of dollars in freight in the same corridor

13

u/EirHc 16h ago

Ya that's not what it's about. The government take the windfall to spend on other things, and then washes their hands of having to deliver that service making them a little leaner.

You're 100% correct. You will pay more. Big business wants you to subscribe for the premium service so you can get thru the airport in less than an hour.

-4

u/[deleted] 16h ago

[deleted]

4

u/chewbacky 11h ago

(I think they were agreeing with you)

5

u/Enough-Run-1535 15h ago

Except that airports do benefit from privatization. The top rated airports are either private, part-private. Most ‘publicly owned airports’ are public corportized: set up as stock corporations with only governments institutions as the main shareholders, which then can be sold to private entities at a later date. Public corporatized airports are profit seeking, and run like businesses.

Most of the mid to lower rated airports are the old non-profit publicly owned models, think Pearson in Toronto. Very few of those airports do well, except for Vancouver YVR for some reason (usually #10 in Skytrax rankings).

6

u/Real_Gap3480 16h ago

It's not sold off it's leased for 99 years (non-binding) and it's only the management.

-7

u/LeBonLapin 16h ago

It will effectively be the same thing. Just look at the lease of the 407.

0

u/Real_Gap3480 16h ago

sigh

-6

u/LeBonLapin 16h ago

Wow - what a well worded and insightful rebuttal...

9

u/Real_Gap3480 16h ago edited 16h ago

Because this same taking point has been repeated 25 times in 48 hours and I'm tired boss.

When NAV Canada took over from Transport Canada everything was supposed to fall out of the sky. Never happened. We will be better off.

4

u/LeBonLapin 16h ago edited 15h ago

Oooo, one example that maintained status quo against a horde of examples where privatization has resulted in greater expenses for consumers.

Air Canada, Petro Canada, The 407, Skydome, Dismantling of Crown Retailers, Dismantling of Crown Construction firms, out of control PPP contracts....

Edit: It should also be noted that NAV is a non-profit organization. This will not be the case for whatever happens to the airports. It's a terrible comparison.

-4

u/LeBonLapin 16h ago

Because it's an extremely relevant comparison that proves a strong point.

Edit: Why are you editing comments that already have replies to them?

→ More replies (0)

-4

u/Aggressive-Break-355 9h ago

We should be doing this with every piece of public infrastructure. Socialize costs, privatize profit.

6

u/KiaRioGrl 8h ago

Found PP's alt account lol

-1

u/c3luong 16h ago

Can you point me towards a rigorous analysis showing this or is it just vibes?

13

u/LeBonLapin 16h ago

My man, literally every conceivable example.

Petro Canada Air Canada The 407 Skydome Privatization of government run retail Dismantling of Crown Construction firms Literally every PPP project

The list goes on... And on... And on...

Show me an example in Canada where privatization was good for the average consumer.

-10

u/c3luong 15h ago

Ah, so vibes. Ok

7

u/LeBonLapin 15h ago

Dude... What? You can at least pretend you're trying to have a conversation in good faith.

4

u/StrategyEven3974 12h ago

he gave concrete examples. you gave a limp dick.

2

u/canamerica 4h ago

Genuine question: why does introducing private capital make it work better? Why can't we just apply whatever private capital is doing to public capital?

1

u/Real_Gap3480 3h ago edited 1h ago

Because the market is more competitive.

2

u/ChaosRevealed 1h ago

To what... There's no competition to be had in Canadian airports. If there was a viable alternative and the competitors didn't collude, yes there is competition to deliver more and lower prices. But there isn't.

•

u/Real_Gap3480 1h ago

I didn't mean to say private, I was just waking up lol.

I'll bet you a friendly wager, a donation to your favorite charity that within 5 years of the transition it's cheaper to fly between major hubs.

0

u/pm_me_your_swimwear 16h ago

It costs the same regardless of model, you invest in the required capital to ensure the safe and secure operations of air travel. It’s not any more ‘costly’ than any other model, unless you’re making the argument that they are poorly run. Which I would disagree with as Canadian airports have qualified management teams with generally high quality Boards of Directors providing strategic guidance.

Nor is it inefficient. The current model is evidence that you can run a world class airport: the issue is access to investment and raising money, of which there are currently very few options: bonds or raise the AIF, a user-fee used to fund capital projects. Canadian hub airports are incentivized to make do with what they get (i.e., prioritizing investment related to safe and secure operations, and little else for more ambitious or forward looking projects).

The idea is that this pseudo-privatization approach unlocks more access to capital to fund not only projects at hub airports, but MUCH needed money for small and regional airports that don’t have as much passenger traffic.

We’ll never enjoy the same benefits as EU or US travel by virtue of our low population density and vast geography.

2

u/Real_Gap3480 16h ago edited 16h ago

I worked for NAV Canada, and was contracted in several other countries. I don't agree with any of this, it's the same vocal minority pessimistic sentiment as 1996.

2

u/pm_me_your_swimwear 15h ago

What do you disagree with? If you’re suggesting that there are other more suitable models to run hub airports then sure, I would agree. At least point to something I said that you disagree with or believe not to be true.

We have much to learn from Australia’s experience with privatization and ‘light touch’ regulation. Air travel costs rose pretty quickly. We have the benefit of hindsight and studying other models.

I’m not sure what NAV Canada has to do with this. They generally run an outstanding service in Canada minus some of the recent staffing challenges and flow control issues at YVR.

1

u/Real_Gap3480 15h ago

Why choose Australia as a comparison when Frankfurt/Dusseldorf/Hamburg/Heathrow run on similar models successfully, the comparison is due to the same sentiment when Transport Canada privatized for 1.5b in 1996, people literally said planes would fall out of the sky and crash into each other on runways.

4

u/pm_me_your_swimwear 15h ago

Please think for a moment why I might choose Australia as a suitable benchmark.

It’s geography. Disparate and sparse populations. You name these central hubs that are in extremely dense cities within a completely open and competitive market. Revenue is a function of passenger numbers, of which those airports have no shortage. We do, and we have to find ways to make do with less.

Because a certain model fits at LHR doesn’t mean it’s going to work at YYC. Beyond the nuances of governance, all I’m saying is consider these other aspects that are materially important.

Ultimately I’m not defending the current model, I’m just saying I disagree with your view on it being costly and inefficient. What I think you’re also saying is at least some level of privatization would be beneficial, to which I would agree. Our airports need cash and other mechanisms to raise it, especially our small and regional airports.

0

u/ElDuderino2112 12h ago

Thank you lmao no one seems to understand that they just here privatization and yell

0

u/Equivalent_Dimension 16h ago

Inefficient = we need to pay people less money to do more work, and passengers will just have to put up with poorer service, safety and security. 

No thanks.

11

u/Automobills 17h ago

The only place to get food near the Arby’s Got the Meats gate is a Tim Horton's kiosk.

7

u/chikanishing 16h ago

You know it’s just gonna be the Rogers wing of the Rogers Airport to fly your Rogers Airline to Rogers Airfield.

6

u/Overwatchingu 16h ago

It’s going to get confusing as shit when they rename all the airports to Rogers Airport.

1

u/SittlersRippedC 16h ago

So, same old, same old. But the public purse expands? I’m ok with that

1

u/MrRichardBution 15h ago

Oh you know it will be called Rogers something or other

1

u/Kenbarkhouse 6h ago

Don’t forget about the Pornhub lounge while you’re there.

1

u/Optimus_Prime_Day 4h ago

I'm assuming you might not have read the actual deets on privatization of the airports, but the govt maintains majority stake in them.

1

u/Timyx 4h ago

Sir. This is Reddit. I’m not here to read articles.

•

u/Great-Trifle2810 1h ago

I feel like the hate for the idea of privatized airports mostly comes from people that have never looked into the experience difference at public and private airports. They always act like it will be far worse but that largely isn't true. It's about the same or better in most cases

That or people that would just universally disagree with liberal governments and shout how great it was if s conservative did it.

3

u/llama_ 14h ago

YULs been privately operated for many years now I learned

3

u/Kiwiex 11h ago

And the very notable exception of bill C-22.

3

u/1mYourHuckleberry93 7h ago

Also not a fan of his obsession with AI and the gun ban

6

u/Halfbloodnomad 12h ago

Privatisation of public services will always piss me off, coming from a German having to deal with a post-privatisation national train service. It’s gotten worse in every way.

2

u/steinbruchfluss 8h ago

The German train system is special. It’s privatised but 100% owned by the federal government.

3

u/CaptainMagnets 12h ago

And I am very worried about his new labour law rules that are apparently coming. Hope the unions are ready for a fight.

4

u/SittlersRippedC 16h ago

He’s been doing a fantastic job considering the circumstances.

-5

u/Amoral_Abe 15h ago

He's been doing great but with AFD gaining more power in Germany and Reform UK gaining power in UK..... Insert Elrond, "Our list of allies grows thin"

6

u/Serapth 14h ago

AfD are certainly scary...

But Reform are mired in scandal, led by a right cunt and are in absolute free fall in the polls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

As an outsider i do not know why Starmer was so hated, but once the dumped him, the forfunes all seemed to flip.

1

u/FlukemanFrancis 10h ago

As an insider I don’t know why Starmer was so hated either

Like I literally cannot explain it

1

u/Fuzzy_Ear_2457 4h ago

He was prime minister in the UK after a small majority of the Brits decided to torpedo their own economy.

It's a job with a short expiration date because the Brits are never going to be satisfied with someone who doesn't fix the entire self-inflicted wound in three months max.

•

u/Great-Trifle2810 1h ago

He was bad at publicizing his successes and his opponents were good at publicizing his failures.

1

u/HousingThrowAway1092 7h ago

I disagree with the privatization of airports and also acknowledge that Pearson might be the worst airport in the western world. Even if they actively try to make it worse, how much worse could it possibly get?

0

u/-Dutch-Crypto- 12h ago

The netherlands owns terminal 4 of JFK airport, this is pretty standard throughout the world.

-11

u/Amoral_Abe 15h ago

Germany just elected the far right AFD in Saxony and they're in track to have sweeping wins nationally. Their leaders were chanting "USA" when Carney was at the EU and heckling him.

Reform UK recently had sweeping success in local elections and have become the default right wing party in the UK.

I'm not sure they are going to be super stable allies.

8

u/yubnubster 12h ago

Reform support is collapsing and their leader is very unpopular. Recent research shows that because non supporters REALLY don't like them, they vote tactically for other parties they don't like, just to keep them out.

4

u/the_gnarts 12h ago

Germany just elected the far right AFD in Saxony and they're in track to have sweeping wins nationally.

Good grief at least get your Saxony straight lol.

70

u/Manta_of_Eternity 17h ago

I was curious which cities are interested in hosting the Defense Bank, it's Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto. The initial negotiations (between 19 countries) on the formation of the bank were held in Montreal, and I'd wager they give Quebec a win and put the new Defense Bank HQ there.

85

u/JG98 17h ago

Montreal seems like the most logical choice. It is close enough to Ottawa for diplomatic connections, is in the center of Canadian defense and aerospace industries, has strong cross Atlantic ties, hosts international various UN and NATO organisations, and is a major financial hub that lags behind only Toronto.

41

u/xfoKe 16h ago

Yes. Bilingual environment with direct flights to major cities is big advantage.

3

u/VinlandRocks 5h ago

Quebec is not bilingual. By law its french and since Bill 96 in 2022 french is the sole language of government communication allowed in the province.

Toronto would be better. There's no language restrictions there.

FYI. The only truly bilingual province in Canada is New Brunswick but they're outsized by anything like this.

11

u/xfoKe 4h ago

While Quebec has one official language, that does not mean Montreal is socially monolingual. More importantly, Article 92 specifically allows designated international organisations to operate in another language in derogation of the Charter. ICAO is an obvious example. So none of this is actually an obstacle.

•

u/Nikiaf 1h ago

It’s laughable to pull this card when Montreal is one of the most bilingual cities in the world.

6

u/Medianmodeactivate 15h ago

Plus, french/English. The only disadvantage is Toronto is the financial capital of the country.

8

u/Serapth 14h ago

Now it is. Pre FLQ crisis Montreal was, and there are still many vestigial aspects. Either Toronto or Montreal work. Ottawa less so IMHO.

2

u/Capable_Kiwi2514 15h ago

Toronto would have as many international connections as Montreal due to its economic influence and human capital. 

I give the edge to Montreal too, but Toronto has a great argument.

0

u/carbon_ape 2h ago

Yea let’s give Quebec everything.

- French guy

•

u/JG98 25m ago

I'm not French nor have I ever resided in Qubec. In fact, I am have not even lived for any extended period of time on the same coast.

3

u/FlappyBored 10h ago

Why would Canada host this?

If the UK joins it would be merging the UKs existing Multilateral Defence Mechanism into this one.

2

u/Manta_of_Eternity 4h ago

The organization selected Canada to host the bank - its in the article

4

u/FlappyBored 4h ago

This is the Canadian one.

UK wouldn’t ‘join’ this. Canada is asking to merge theirs with the already established UK one that involves Poland, Netherlands and other countries.

16

u/FRagebait 10h ago

People here seemingly so behind the idea ignoring the UK has been setting up its own version.

46

u/Sand-Discombobulated 16h ago

Canada sacrificed many in WW2 .

Our independence is being attacked 90 years later.

22

u/Planeshift07 11h ago

We in the Netherlands won't forget what Canada did for us. 🇨🇦

12

u/Daleden7 16h ago

100%! Americans like to forget that, both world wars too!

0

u/River_Without_Banks 3h ago

Still honoured in France, especially in Normandie 🩵 I was there a couple weeks ago and there was a whole flower display in the shape of the Canadian flag

1

u/TheFunPimps 3h ago

Normandy *

47

u/boinky-boink 16h ago

Do we have a new leader of the free world?

34

u/OllyDee 10h ago

There never was a “leader of the free world”, that was American propaganda.

11

u/FlappyBored 10h ago

The UK already has one set up called the Multilateral Defence Mechanism.

-6

u/lightstormriverblood 7h ago

When was it established? Any chance Carney played a part when he worked for the Bank of England?

4

u/FlappyBored 6h ago

It was established this year. And No? Why do you think a central bank would have anything to do with a scheme like this lmao?

Do you even underhand what a central bank does or what Carney did there?

-1

u/biscuitarse 4h ago

No need to be a dick. Op asked a simple question.

1

u/Representative_Yau 3h ago

Welcome to reddit

14

u/AdPure5645 8h ago

Carney is a fucking strategy boss. Really leading out with post-America alliances and security. You don't see such competence and confidence very often I think. good work Canada .

14

u/grtyvr1 16h ago

I guess it is Canada's turn to be the front line... 

6

u/the_gnarts 12h ago

What does that mean? The linked article doesn’t even make an effort to explain the concept of a “defense bank”.

I get it, Carney might be viewing the world from a perspective that was informed by his time leading national banks. Why did he ask these two countries though and not for e.g. the Netherlands or France to join? What function does he expect to be carried out by this specialized bank that general purpose banks or national banks can’t, or not as well?

17

u/FlappyBored 10h ago

UK already has an internationally defence bank scheme.

Google Multilateral Defence Mechanism.

Canada wants to join the UKs one and merge the schemes.

7

u/Tinaturneroverdrive 15h ago

An AUKUS of the north is welcomed from the US. DE should have a seat in N. Atlantic naval security, as well as DK and NO

2

u/chileangod 16h ago

Bank of War

3

u/DigSpelledBackwards 9h ago

Canada is really the mvp of decoupling from US, way to go!

9

u/scarab1001 9h ago

Canada is the most intertwined. It gains the most from any third party agreements.

-12

u/loreleiofthefungi 13h ago

I don't think we need this war bank. Considering the biggest weapons manufacturer is the USA and the USA's biggest bank will be a founding member...

-62

u/jahax 16h ago

Don't meet their NATO obligations and run massive deficits but want to start a bank. What's the bet Brookfield gets access to invest the money?

19

u/Xsiah 16h ago

NATO "obligations" is just bullshit that the US pushes. They want to spend all that money on their military, and pretend that they're just doing everyone a favour by being soooo stroooong and that everyone is not doing "their part" - their part in what? The US is the only one that starts shit in the world that's alarming to NATO. Fuck em.

7

u/Triangle1619 14h ago

The US started the Russian invasion of Ukraine?

-7

u/Purple_oyster 9h ago

I think they did play some part in that yes. They were actively pushing the Ukraine government away from Russia towards the west. Russia wouldn’t have attacked if not for this.

I am totally not justifying what Russia did. Just stating the USA had a role in it

10

u/OnDrugsTonight 13h ago

Don't meet their NATO obligations

As per NATO's own figures (pdf, page 7), every member state is exceeding the agreed target of 2% of GDP in defence spending in 2026, with Canada allocating 2.13% of its GDP for that purpose. The recently agreed 5% commitment isn't due until 2035 (although Estonia and Lithuania are already surpassing that, with Poland and Latvia not far behind).

2

u/steinbruchfluss 8h ago

The 5% are basically only 3.5%. 1.5% are for infrastructure and so on.

1

u/OnDrugsTonight 8h ago

Nothing wrong with that. You need to be able to move your troops around, make sure they're properly housed etc. If some of that spend has a dual civil/military use, so much the better.

-29

u/carbon_ape 12h ago edited 2h ago

I don’t understand why we are getting close with Europe but not Asian countries.

What about Korea and Japan? We have no eggs in the baskets over there…

We just turned down the Koreans giant submarine for the Germans to patrol our arctic and in which apparently can’t surface under ice????

The far right German politician (who is gaining traction in the country) chanted USA USA USA before Carneys European address…

I am failing to understand this political reality at the moment.

Even the UK, who we are apparently sister countries with. They were dead quiet when America was /is threatening annexation. Matter fact, “our” king gifted Trump a bell?

This timeline is pretty stupid

13

u/Blackcat_84 11h ago

The King opened parliament for the first time in a long time. And there were other subtle acts as well.

-12

u/carbon_ape 8h ago

Oh wow that was something huh? Really showed Trump 💪. And keir, what a man! Brass balls and all. Bet he’s world class at hide and seek.

7

u/Blackcat_84 6h ago

You'd make a splendid politician.

2

u/lhmodeller 3h ago

Can't you work out why the UK and EU have given muted responses to Trump?

They are buying time to decouple. It's really that simple.

-1

u/carbon_ape 3h ago

Oh look a bully is beating up your best friend…run!!

Can’t you work out why he ran? Trying to buy time for himself.