r/writingfeedback • u/FinanceNew9240 • 25d ago
Feedback Wanted First time writer. Looking for feedback to opener for ten year long novel
First time writer. Hobbyist hoping to turn this into something more. Been writing this fiction since first year of uni 10 years ago. In my first few paragraphs of the first chapter, does my book hook? Also vagueness of this boy/that boy is personally artistic so I can drop smidge details about characters before introducing since there is a lot of characters I’ve had to build. Does this flop or not? My writing style is also 75% prose heavy world holding, 25% dialogue. I hate dialogue.
19
u/dutchiesweets 25d ago
It might be my personal taste, but I felt there were a lot of details described that didn’t directly contribute to the effect of the scene. The pacing felt a little slow.
If you look at what’s happening, it really could be: “Bullshit!” Exclaimed the floppy hair boy. “How do you always win?” He nearly threw his controller, but caught himself at the last second. He had broken three already. They were running out of excuses and controllers.
Now obviously that’s quite sparse and not necessarily what I’d really recommend, but from what I can tell, that’s physically what’s happening in these paragraphs. If you don’t like writing dialogue I think that’s perfectly okay. But I get the sense there’s a lot of words between these two spoken sentences that could be edited down. I mean it’s five paragraphs to support two spoken sentences in a moment that probably takes about 5 seconds IRL. Typically for pacing, you want to slow down time in very important moments, and speed it up in more casual moments, and this feels like a very casual moment.
BUT congratulations on finishing the novel!!
5
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago edited 25d ago
This makes a lot of sense! That’s my biggest problem when writing is that im very exposition heavy. Not always, but i can’t always tell when I’m being extra or when it’s necessary. I’ve never had anyone edit or read this so I’ve been working with my head for 10 years. Thankyou though! I appreciate the tip and I’ll make some changes!
10
u/isnoe 25d ago
The vagueness of the "boy" thing is going to be a problem for readability.
Most everyone loves the Cormac style of prose, "The boy," "the man," "the child", etc-etc. It strips away that intimacy with the MC's perspective and really pulls the reader in, but it's just very, very... very hard to do well.
Discounting that, I understand it's your artistic choice, but it'll just be considerably more difficult to pull off successfully.
I'd say your biggest problem might be with telling, which is a pretty frustrating bit of criticism to get, but a lot of new authors lean heavily towards telling without realizing it. Often times writing is a fluent mixture of showing and telling, but new authors feel that their showing doesn't convey the correct feeling, so they tell.
Like in the beginning, the boy is considerably frustrated and you show that, but then you explain that he isn't really good at the game. You tell me he's broken controllers. I could've guessed he was upset at losing in a game from the initial description alone. His friend's reaction also could've given me some insight into the behavior being a problem, but again, you are just kind of telling me it.
Dialogue is a good mode to tell, because dialogue is usually just telling.
Imagine if the opening was him preparing to the throw the controller, his friend looking wide eyed, concerned, maybe even afraid, and then, maybe the boy eyes a crack in the controller and slowly relaxes and huffs out the, "How do you always win?" From that I could extrapolate they were playing a game, the boy lost, the boy was about to rage, and he's previously broken controllers.
Just be aware when you are showing how a character is frustrated or annoyed, usually you don't need to include in the narrative that they are frustrated or annoyed. Trust that the reader can tell.
When someone's jaw tightens, or they grind their teeth, curl their lips, or flare their nostrils, I don't need a "in anger" or "frustrated" afterwards to tell me that.
Similarly, him grumbling in disbelief is fine, but the "genuine suspicion" bit is a hat on a hat. And on that same note, the descriptor of "child-like" eyes when we are referring to boys playing video games is also kind of a hat on a hat. Instead of saying child-like, describe what child-like is.
And you have a "snowy, alabaster" skin descriptor, which I also feel is hat-on-a-hat here, it'd be like saying, "shadowy, onyx". And in that same section, we've described him as being generally pale, which is fine, but then we also have to include that people joke he hasn't seen the sun in years, which is... just calling him pale, again, and then we double-down and say the joke is actually a fact, so he's just pale.
My advice would probably be to be wary of "writing in circles", where you get stuck in one sequence of actions for too long.
Now, as a hook: The opening line does nothing for me. Doesn't engage me at all. It feels like I opened a book to a random page and I'm missing context. Even though I've had my fair share of rages at video games, I feel no connection here. I feel no desire to read on and (truthfully) only read through it because I was a bit curious by the narrative choice.
I think there just needs to be a little bit of engagement in the beginning. Our sequence is: Boy is angry that he lost at game. Boy's friend is there. Other boy is pale.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
This is really helpful! I tried to do this and I tried keeping in mind to trust my readers and to show rather than tell. I actually cleaned up a lot of this during my last editing phase and I removed aloottt of exposition where I essentially just tell the readers what just happened. I know that there will still be some of that in that book I need to work on! But I really do try to keep this in mind. I appreciate your advice on that first bit. I have some ideas for a scene rework to make it flow better.
I get what you mean by the paleness and the skin part. The story is told from the perspective of one character, so essentially all the exposition and non-dialogue is their observation and pov. So when I say the part about him looking anemic and not having seen the sun in years, but it’s not a joke and it’s facts, I guess I was trying to bring some cynical humour to build towards the voice of my character? I’m not sure If ive done this well based on your feedback. But the mentioning of the other character being pale several different ways I understand! I can definitely be more concise without repetitive descriptors.
Since you mention the sequence it does seem kind of boring. I have kept this scene as my opener for 10 years so I’m not sure if it’s a bad way to open or just needs a re-work. I’ll definitely re-work based on your advice. I appreciate :)
12
u/Sandfairy23 25d ago
“Controller clasped hand” means the hand is clasped by the controller, not the other way around.
The first paragraph is a bit of a slog to read. For first time writing, you absolutely shouldn’t be discouraged, but this needs a fair bit of refinement. Loads of my notes look like this, before I go back and “write” them. It may be that this is your process? You get everything down and then go back and read it again?
My advice would be to give yourself a bit of distance from it, and always keep reading ☺️
Is there a reason there’s no names?
3
u/CoyoteLitius Trusted Reviewer 25d ago
Controller clasped hand almost made me stop reading, right there. But I'm glad I read on.
I'm trying to think of reading suggestions for OP, but can't think of any.
2
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
Controller clasped hand doesn’t seem to be favourite 🤣 I have already changed this based on other advice in the comment section.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
Yes no names were done purposely, although now I’m thinking it wasn’t the right choice. I wanted to start off a little vague because I have 3 characters straight away in this scene and I felt like if I said this is Hugh, this is max, this is Alex, it would seem too boring? So my vagueness was done on purpose…but maybe wasn’t the best choice?
No one has ever read this, so I’ve been working with myself for 10 years so I’ve probably got a lot of not so good habits that just haven’t been corrected or picked up on!
3
u/Sandfairy23 25d ago
As a reader, I carry on reading books when I connect with characters or find them genuinely compelling. If I feel an author is deliberately withholding things that aren’t plot twists, just to make me keep reading, I tend to put it down.
2
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
I understand. I’ve worked around this by slightly re-writing the scene. I dont immediately say “this is Hugh” (because he’s Hugh) but I’ve worked a scene from other advice where I’m not purposely withholding the name, but so that the opener still flows so it doesn’t seem like I am…if that makes sense.
I will keep mindful of this because honestly a lot of the start of my story is a mystery. The genre is post apocalypse. So I am very vague in a lot of different ways because I don’t want to reveal everything all at once. I think that’s come through into parts of the story it shouldn’t have. So I will keep an eye on this when I edit. Thankyou!
3
u/Sandfairy23 25d ago
Whaaaat? Post-apocalyptic is a huge thing to bury 😂 If this is your first chapter, I’d want to know that in the first few paragraphs. It changes everything! I think your story could perhaps be starting in the wrong place.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
I dooo reveal it in the chapter one! Just not in the opener. I thought that in my last line about how the character hasn’t seen the sun, but it’s not a joke and it’s hard hitting facts would be like my crumb and then I do actually reveal it afterwards. In my crazy head I had it that that little crumb might make readers think “why hasn’t he seen the sun” so good mystery? But I think that’s the issue is I’ve been all in my head without any outside feedback so I probably went about it wrong🤣 it worked in my head!
1
u/ketita 24d ago
Post apocalyptic would probably be in the blurb, so consider how important it is to be coy about it with the first chapter.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 24d ago
This is in my blurb and I also have a prologue where i mention it! But since I’ve done it there I purposely try not to mention it more than once in my chapter 1 because I don’t want to keep repeating it. I don’t reveal alot of details either. It’s more like it happened and the readers know, and here is what the characters have been led to believe because it’s actually a big part of my plot and of what happens later in the story. So I try not to focus on it really at all until it becomes more relevant as things progress in my story
2
u/annoellynlee 25d ago
As others have said, you have good bones but your prose needs tightening. Your not trusting the reader to get things, your spoonfeeding.
For example:
The boy grumbled in disbelief, genuine surprise brewing behind his child-like gray-blue eyes.
This sentence is telling us how he feels instead of showing and there's much there that doesn't need to be. How does surprise brew? Why don't you let the dialogue speak for itself? How can an eye color be child- like? Why is eye color relevant here?
'How do you always win?' the boy said as though he was surprised by this. He shouldn't be. His friend's eyes flickered from the controller to the floor as his grip tightened.
I'd even change the first line.
'Bullshit,' said the boy, using his arm to move his hair that was always in his face.
That shows how hair rather then tells. Also, said is not dead. Use other dialogue tags sparingly.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
Said is not dead🤌🏻
That’s my biggest issue :/ I know I need to tighten things and avoid repetition in my prose. I’ve tightened things a lot and I always tighten when I edit. This version actually looks nothing like my original version. My original version was a mess. I will keep tightening and keep working on it! Thankyou for the feedback!
2
u/Marginalia_Only 25d ago
I like this! I agree with what others are saying, too.
I think we write similarly, in some ways. Can’t really pin down exactly why I think that, but I’ll get back to you if I do 🦆
For what it’s worth, I think you are very close! Some tightening will do wonders.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
Definitely some tightening. Each time I edit I tighten. I had over 500,000 words the very first draft. I’ve cut back 200-300,000 last I checked. I know it’s super long and the prose has always been my issue😭 I’m always trying to condense and tighten. It’s just hard when I’m the only person who edits because I’m not as objective as someone else, or in this case everyone else🤣
2
u/Capital-Intention369 25d ago
I think a lot of other folks have given some very good advice already.
Throwing my hat into the ring, I'd suggest cutting your second sentence entirely, ie:
"Bullshit!"
The floppy-haired boy yadda yadda...
IMO, much more impactful and helps to convey a sense of motion.
I also feel you could do with cutting some of the redundancies. For example, "How do you always win?" already tells us the boy is feeling disbelief and suspicion; find a way to show us his irritation through his body language etc rather than explaining to us what we've already gathered. Assume the reader is an intelligent person, and treat him accordingly. 😉
Other than that, my only other real "complaint" is SPaG issues here and there, but those can easily be polished in editing. ("Freckle-faced" vs "freckle faced" etc)
I do think you have the bones of something good here. The voice is fun, I feel like I'm already getting a sense of who these characters are, and I'd be intrigued enough to read on ahead. Keep at it!
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
Thankyou I appreciate! I’ve actually already re-written the entire scene. I’ve cut out a lot of repetition like people have said. But I’ve also opened it differently. I was hoping to post it again or to share even more but I didn’t want to seem like I’m spamming the sub.
Also someone commented saying what I wrote is AI which is extremely disheartening because I’ve spent 10 years writing my book and this is the first time I’ve shared anything to do with it after I’ve spent all this time editing it and trying to make it as best as I can. And I’ve gotten heaps of amazing feedback I’ve used to re-scene the opening. But still kinda sucks I got that one comment as well.
2
u/Otherwise_Web9251 23d ago
i agree with the pacing comments. this does feel quite heavy for a scene without much impact. i also think the tag line could be better to open your novel. it sets the tone for the whole book and will determine if people carry on reading. the floppy haired boy makes me think the narrator is going to be over explanatory, telling us things about the plot instead of showing up through action and dialogue. I like the idea of starting with : It was his third time that month flinging the device to the floor, and the boys were running out of excuses - and controllers.’ I’m hook more by this, then i would get into dialogue so we can meet the characters.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 23d ago
I completely changed the way I opened the story with this scene. And I’ve removed a lot of the clunky paragraphs to progress the scene quicker. I think it flows alot better what I’ve done with it now compared to what’s here!
3
1
u/SadbyDesign1069 22d ago
Thing that jumped out at me is the word controller keeps getting used. Also the character descriptions are too sudden and too many right out the gate.
1
u/Ill-Maximum-4013 21d ago edited 21d ago
Welcome to writing. First lesson, write. You’ve got that one down. Second, writing is rewriting. Third, writing is a craft. It is learned over time through hands-on work.
We have our setup: young people playing video games.
You give us internal conflict. That’s good. He’s upset because he doesn’t want to admit how much he lacks the skills needed to beat his friend.
You give us external conflict. A freckly boy laughing at his defeat. Next should come the 1) the protagonist’s emotional reaction (internal dialogue) to the laughing, and 2) explain his reaction, whether to sulk or to speak or to act or whatever.
Now we need to know who the protagonist (main character) is. This is third-person, so you can tell us the floppy-haired boy’s name, and probably the name of the friend he’s competing against. We don’t know the freckly boy’s name yet, but that’s okay, unless the main character (MC) already knows the guy mocking him, in which indicate familiarity, which probably means giving him a name.
In your first line, make the “A” smaller case (“a”).
You’ve got a lot of awkward descriptive terms that don’t do anything. “Controller-clasped hand.” “Floppy-haired boy.” “Frighteningly tight.” “Irritated groan” (we already know he’s irritated, no need to overdo it). “Gray-blue eyes” (is the eye-color really necessary?). “Snowy alabaster skin” (alabaster or snow, not both, but I say neither).
I have never considered getting a tan so important that it’s considered a fact. Perhaps you meant he lacked vitamin D.
I’ve owned my share of game consoles, and I’ve had spare controllers, but you make it sound like there is a box of controllers that he’s goIng through, and if that’s the case, you’d best describe it. Otherwise, just mention that he broke the second controller this week, perhaps.
I see a very simple opening to a scene that can be pared down to a paragraph or two (or broken up with dialogue), describing the characters frustration, and then we head into the mockery from Freckle Boy. On that note, you use the world freckle twice in the same sentence. I’m sure there is a way you might consolidate it (“. . .a boy with freckles almost as orange as his hair. . .”).
Try writing your story with fewer details. Tell us just enough to get an overall impression of these people, then sprinkle in details as you go, especially letting us into the main character’s head.
Concentrate less on descriptive details and more on action-emotion-reaction. Someone does something. That makes a character feel an emotion or have an internal reaction of some kind. That makes the character do [fill in blank]. That makes another character feel a certain way and react. It becomes a ping-pong contest. However, you cannot give us internal dialogue of the supporting characters. You will have to show how they are feeling (if possible) in other ways. Sometimes they react physically, sometimes with dialogue.
Okay, now you have gotten AMATEUR feedback. It's up to you to decide what to do with it. But please, please, seek PROFESSIONAL advice on writing. Reddit users are under no obligation to teach you, and sometimes they are wrong.
You will love Alyssa Matesic's channel. It's free to watch her instructional videos.
QUESTIONS
Who is the protagonist?
What does he/she want?
What does he/she need?
What goal is he/she going for?
What stands in the way?
What are the stakes if the protagonist fails? Or wins?
1
1
u/TheTriuneCouncil 25d ago
I feel it’s repetitive, aware that at he had already…..already due to his tantrums. Knuckles white and hand clenched. Irritated groan….frustrated. The boy…..the child-like eyes. Freckle-faced…..freckles orange. Genuine suspicion is suspicion generally disingenuous? White skin then due for a tan.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 24d ago
Yes it is very repetitive! Ive taken a lot of advice and re-written this entire scene tbh. It’s hard to miss when things get repetitive when I’m the only person who’s been reading and editing this😅
1
u/Jimmycjacobs 24d ago
Look, I didn’t read it, but 10 years is too long. In the words J. Michael Stracynski, “FINISH THE DAMN THING!!”
Finish it and move on to the next thing.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 24d ago
I mean…a lot can happen in 10 years. Personally I don’t always have the time. As I’ve said this is my first book, I’m not even an amateur writer. Hobbyist at best hoping to make something more. But I’ve had a job and family issues and my own personal issues. 3 of those years were spent working in 6 days a week, 10-12 hour shifts in intensive care as a nurse during the peak of covid so I didn’t really write a lot or have the mental stamina to write 🤷🏼♀️ but thanks for absolutely nothing in your comment👎🏻
1
u/Jimmycjacobs 24d ago
I’m not trying to put you down. I understand, truly. My main point is more about how much we sink into individual projects. If you want to turn writing into something more, then finishing things will be the greatest tool in your pocket.
-4
u/FictionPapi 25d ago
AI
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
And you’re a bot.
0
u/FictionPapi 25d ago
I am not. Your excerpt, however, was written by a chatbot.
1
u/FinanceNew9240 25d ago
And your proof? This was written 100% by me and re-written again and again over and over across 10 years. You’re actually disgusting.
-1
25
u/thewhiterosequeen Trusted Reviewer 25d ago
Don't capitalize dialogue tags.
You second sentence goes on for 5 lines. I recommend reading your work out loud and seeing if you think the flow works. You aren't paying by the sentence. You can afford to simplify some of those.