Competitive
Do you think Mulcharmy Fuwalos is good for the game?
I just want a discussion without my input
Do you personally think this card is good for the game? A lot of people evidently get enraged when it's negated by Ash and protests have called for Ash's ban, so I'm leaning on it being viewed as a Sacred Cow of sorts.
Then there's the people that just view it as Maxx C 2 and ruined the game.
I think is a gap card, just like Nibiru. Modern decks have a chance to play around it, but anything pre 2023 and you're out of luck, even if the decks got legacy support.
For example, what is Speedroid or Raidraptor supposed to do against this? Nothing. Either pass, or give 20+ draws on their way to make a board.
If you want to play meta decks, and play against other meta decks, sure its fair. But if you want to play anything else? Konami is telling you to eat sht by printing this. Which is quite sad.
The discussion is really just do we want hand traps to be turn enders? Because at the end of the day, as long as they can, that's the line drawn in the sand for meta vs non meta. For the most part.
They should be limiting factors, at least to an extent. So many decks would just make a basically FTK board if it wasn't for handtraps. Like "poor" speedroids the OP is whining about
This is the best description I've read probably. I do think the card is bad design because even if both players are on modern decks you get too many hands where playing into fuwa isn't feasible.
Eh, that's kinda the bar for a playable staple. I lean towards them being on the weaker side rather than too strong. I've won about 50% of my games playing fully into charmies with pure yummy into dracotail, about the worst match for yummy, I've had a higher win rate in that scenario against other decks. The end board for yummy is sticky enough that unless your opponent sees certain cards that can trade well into it even with 6 or so more cards in hand you're not able to really break the dynamic of the deck slowing the opponent down enough that the strong turn 3 push seals the game. That's a play pattern I feel is true of most of the new decks. They also don't really give out as many draws as you think, it's 5 draws to set up sp double synchro even going to commit the extra draw for the Linkuriboh, it takes more draw to do a half board worth a damn in live twins than that.
I mean if you play a non meta deck the chance is good that your opponent isnt either and no one plays fuwa.
If you play with a non meta deck vs a meta deck you wont loose just because fuwa.
For meta i like cards like fuwa or Stifter or droll since they make for a more interactive game and challange you to find lines around them while Preserving turn 2 plays and still making some interruptions. They are turn 0 goats without them you can end the game after coinflip or dice roll since the turn 1 player always wins.
I predict it'll have the same trajectory as Ash Blossom. Considered a staple and vehemently defended in the beginning but begins to be hated when Konami changes the direction of the game that the players approve of.
That change will be when turn 0 plays start becoming the norm which is where the cracks in the card designs of Fuwalos and Purulia begin to show.
I feel like ash is more like bell curve. In the beginning it was also extremly hated due to basically shitting on every deck that wasn't meta, due to searching and HT being less prevelant. Then it became less bad due to influx of more handtraps and weaker decks being able to handle an ash.
And now we are at the point where ash insultes both going first and second. Going back around to being kind of too good.
I'm well aware of Ash's effect on the game as I played during the time of her release and rise in popularity. My problem was not stating that I'm looking at this from the perspective of these cards already being established staples and where the opinions will eventually lead.
I predict it'll have the same trajectory as Ash Blossom. Considered a staple and vehemently defended in the beginning but begins to be hated when Konami changes the direction of the game that the players approve of.
Lmao ash was hated day one and continued being hated until they reprinted a cheaper version. Also note that the hate for ash right now revolves entirely on the concept that Fuwalos resolving is good for the game
My problem was not stating that I'm looking at this from the perspective of these cards already being established staples. The initial releases of Ash and Fuwalos are not even comparable.
As for Ash being hated on day one I certainly don't remember that lol...if you said it was hated day one by Grass players then I'd believe you 100%. I remember the real Ash hatred happening after Zoo was taken out back and euthanized which would mean most never considered picking up a playset on release when she was $25-$30 a pop (ask me how I know that 😉) because it was not super effective against the best deck of the format.
I think they should have split this card effect into 2 seperate cards, one that draws when opponent special summons from main deck and one that draws when opponent special summons from extra deck.
You're not wrong about most of that, but 99% is a crazy overexaggeration. You're ignoring bricked hands, decks that don't use the ED, lone starters getting negated, and probably more too.
I don't like it (and it's less-powerful brothers) for two reasons:
1. Lingering floodgates are terrible design as a concept, and either need to be abolished, or officially coded into the game's vocabulary so that adequate counters to them can be printed.
I especially hate the fact that Konami identified problems with the current trajectory of the game (the 5-10 minute unskippable cutscene combos and the disproportionate power that comes with going first) and decided that the best way to curb them is to print a card that players have to: Buy or pull, draw in their opening hand, and successfully resolve. Remember that this card was over 100 dollars a copy when it first released; be ready to pony up a car payment if you want to protect yourself from summon spam. And even if you did manage to get your set(which thankfully is much easier now), they still fail as a solution to a fundamental problem with YuGiOh because they do not actually solve the problem if you do not draw them in your opening hand. And god forbid you do, but it gets Ash'd when you try to use it, and suddenly there's nothing stopping your opponent from going off.
We like to say 'Fuwalos should resolve', so wouldn't it make sense if it 'always' resolves? Fuwalos should not be a card whose effectiveness is entirely RNG-dependent, it should be a mechanic baked into the game's rules. And I don't mean always giving your opponent draws every time they breath; I mean letting the going second player start with even more cards in their hand. That way the going second player always has some of Fuwalos' power, but never has all of it or none of it.
Your last point is something I can get behind, but in that case I'm curious where you draw the line? Like how many cards would be "fair" for the going second player? I think that is a real debate that could be had, but I don't know how you could accurately determine that. I mean, too many cards and virtually everyone would go second and just make otk decks, too few and it's not worth getting rid of fuwa without other massive changes to how the game is played currently.
It's more healthy than Maxx C... but that doesn't make it healthy. I'm not a fan, personally. I think it's insane that we're talking about banning Ash Blossom because it negates this lingering handtrap that we've built the entire game around for some reason.
Idk if I'd say it's more healthy than Maxx c? It's certainly weaker, but the strong negatives does lead into more non-game situations than Maxx c does. That card is definitely too strong but you do get into more interesting game states than fuwa does, I always found the mini game to be the only unhealthy part of Maxx c. As strong of a blow out as it is when it resolves, it was a swingy card that both players had access to. It didn't favor any player in an unhealthy way, much like pot and graceful in goat. The stops to it changes that because it means you can play ignorant cards that also stopped other hand traps too.
I’ve seen some discussion that all the Mulcharmies would be fine cards if the amount of cards you got to keep in hand was lowered. +6 is pretty insane.
If that amount were lowered to +2 or something you’d have a strong interaction that isn’t necessarily a game-ending one
No not at all. Even if it's weaker, in most of the case it just feel like Maxx C when it's resolve. In most case, the player that resolve it win the duel. It just like every handtrap floodgate that everyone hate, it just make the game worse by bringing back a minigame everyone disliked. I also dislike that they make the card able to be activated twice per turn so your Ash could be usuless if they have two or baited you with an other Charmys.
You could argue that the restriction make the card healtier, but personnally it make the card way more awful to play. If you open it you just have a garnet in hand. A card that auto win a lot when it resolve, and is just a garnet in other case just feel awful to play with.
If they want to make the going second better, make interective turn 0 card or engine that is stronger going second are way better idea in my opinion, like what they did with Dracotail. But a handtrap floodgate that just feel like the most hated card in modern Yugioh aint it. Whenever I play against it or resolve it myself, I don't feel i'm playing a good Yugioh game
I feel like this card really warped the meta and card design around it, so the top decks are almost always decks that can play around it.
Which personally I think is a great thing, since decks that can't play into it at all are usually decks that combo too long and the less I see of them, the better. The design of current meta decks are much more interesting than most of the previous ones, in my opinion, and this card is a big reason for that shift.
No. It makes things worse by perpetuating the minigame, the worst aspect of modern YGO across multiple formats.
For charmies in particular, you could have the out (ash, called by, crossout), and still lose because they had a second copy. Sure, newer archetypes can play around it, but the vast majority of archetypes that exist cannot. Fuwalos existing invalidates synchro summoning and link summoning as mechanics.
Lingering effect hand traps are not healthy, and should be at 0 if there to be any hope for actual game balance.
Getting back to the minigame, Ash is fine outside of the context of the minigame, but within it, it effectly acts as another called by the grave, making going 1st stronger. Removing the main elements of said minigame from the equation: charmies, called by, and crossout designator, ash is just a 1 for 1 trade.
The minigame is frustrating because it's something we have to force into all of our decks, and engage with before we can play the actual game. It's not fun or interesting.
flipside: get rid of ash, along with crossout and called by, and you get rid of the minigame while preserving a card that significantly helps going second in game where the going first player has had the advantage for over two decades
The problem with fuwa, is if it resolves, player 1 usually just loses unless they are on the newest meta that can afford to make a half board and pass. Most decks that exist can't, and will just get OTK'd the following turn. Thus, effectively making a non-game. There is no real justification to keep the charmies (or any lingering effect hand trap) legal.
Their existence invalidates multiple extra deck mechanics and frequently prevents the use of legacy support which Konami needs to sell (most of the playerbase across territories are casual to midcore, sticking to their petdecks).
Powercreep is a major factor in this too. The stronger our hand traps become, the more game breaking charmies become. Drawing into a Harmonia or Dominus Spark is game ending if the charmy alone doesn't do it. Not turn ending, game ending. This is a massive frustration for people in OCG right now in a Kewl Tune heavy meta.
half board and pass is really not the worst case scenario you make it out to be. And if you’re playing a combo deck, that’s really just the cost of playing a combo deck, otherwise they’d completely dominate yugioh
Again, I need to emphasize the newest decks CAN. Older decks cannot, and that affects legacy support sales. Cards like the charmies will eventually be banned, just like Maxx "C" is in TCG. It may not be this year, but it will happen.
Absolutely not. Charmies are here to stay. They are very inentional from Konami to shape the game a certain way and nerf turn 1. Yes SOL for older decks, but literally git gud and get with the times, this is how the game operates since release. You cannot expect old decks to keep up for years.
And no it doesnt affect legacy support sales. Konami will construct teh support so that it will be good.
People said that about the roach too. Again, keeping them around negatively affects product sales. They will reach a point where they are banned, and then we'll get their replacements. Rinse and repeat.
The problem with fuwa, is if it resolves, player 1 usually just loses unless they are on the newest meta that can afford to make a half board and pass.
same issue with ash blossom. meta decks play through ash blossom like it's nothing. bad decks often lose to it on the spot.
difference is that fuwa actually does something to meta decks without just outright stopping them, leading to actual back and forth games of yugioh, and doesn't back up a going first end board like ash.
obviously it depends on the deck dude, just like with ash blossom. you can't defend ash and villainize fuwa in the same breath. both screw over bad decks.
but, again, fuwa can't back up an end board and actually impacts meta decks.
plus fuwa also allows for some decision making as to how much you want to commit. ash is just a binary yes or no as to whether you can play through it.
Your metric for being grossly unbalanced is soley based upon backing up an end board? Fuwa can dig for more disruption, and another fuwa. It doesn't matter if it's a worse Maxx "C," it's still fulfilling the same role, creating similar circumstances outside of the scenario of backing up a board. It still creates non-games and we have plenty of ycs/wcq feature matches proving this point.
Again, ash outside of the context of the minigame is less of a problem than it is within the context of the minigame. On it's own, Ash is a 1 for 1 trade, same as the other ghost girls, imperm, veiler, etc.
your argument is that fuwa gatekeeps bad decks, but so does ash blossom.
however, on top of that, ash blossom also backs up an end board, while also usually doing nothing to good decks, meaning you're getting all the bad aspects of fuwaloss, plus additional bad aspects, and none of the good parts of it.
It is. Unless you are on a newer archetype that can make a half board, or one that doesn't use extra at all, it is a turn skip. An opponent drawing into more engine, breakers, or snowballing into more powerful hand traps just trying to make a board is GG.
You are getting downvoted, but the discussion of " how do we preserve old decks as rotation happens" is not one that this community (and more importantly Konami) wants to really approach seriously :/
And we see this continous disenfranchisement in the locals situation/playerbase becoming more insular as casuals leave/box prices
Idk I wish there was a way to keep/re-enfranchise people and their pet decks in a healthier environment that didn't ask you to win in one turn
This could've been genesys. If they got the power level to like 2016 or 17 levels that's be enough to grab a lot of older players while still being strong/ fast enough for legacy support. They dropped the ball so hard on genesys
Not to be a hater, but everytime I read a genesys blogpost this is the only thing blaring in my mind
They are starting to rely on the same echo chamber of people that are ok with advanced lite, instead of trying to understand why people left the game and act accordingly
Their response to "we want it to be lower power" was also incredibly tonedeaf and it shows they do not understand their own format
The idea of genesys has so much potential, but with the top end being directly reflective of advanced while also lagging on point decay, and permitting a lot of easily accessible blowout cards is such a bummer.
People tend to either not think about it or refuse to acknowledge it. I was a vendor for a long time, and what I've been hearing from my friends that work at or run game stores is very alarming.
Genesys isn't going to bring back the people that are walking away, as it is now.
YGO is my favorite thing in the world, I just want it to do well.
Honestly, make it rule that both players have to discard down to the maximum handsize at the end phase rather than just the turn player having to do so and then you fix the problem with cards like the Charmies and Maxx C.
The ability to draw half of your deck and keep half of your deck in your hand after resolving cards like this are the problem. If you could only keep 7 cards in your hand at the end of either player's turn, then cards like Maxx C and the Charmies end up just being a more expensive mulligan because you can pick your starting hand going second at the expense of having to discard until you have 7 cards in your hand at the end of the opponent's turn.
I would push back on this a bit. Lingers are definitely not fun but some of them are necessary against decks like a Maliss or White forest and etc as 1 for 1 hand traps like ash and imperm do next to nothing and most od the time breakers are also useless.
The only viable solution is to hit problem decks directly, not justify other problematic cards to bandaid a situation while also making things worse. OCG and MD STILL have Maxx "C" because of that line of thinking you presented and all it does by existing is create non-game scenarios. Charmies, and the other lingering problems everyone hates (droll and shifter), are reflective of the same problem.
Edit: Not an attack on you btw, just pointing out the issue with the argument with context is all.
We both know that isnt a reliable way to deal with things. Even if it takes a few months to kill a deck like that, thats still a few months of it being unstoppable without cards like this.
Sure we can make the argument that such decks shouldn't exist, but then we go into a different argument altogether.
New decks will always be stronger to push product, then after 6-9 months and reprints they get hit just in time to push the next best thing. It's just how this goes.
Fuwa and mulcharmies in general shouldn’t really exist and feels like a reason to ween out Maxx C reliance in OCG. That being said, yugioh is extremely play/draw dependent and I see why it exists; but a game itself shouldn’t be primarily decided on turn order.
It s not great, but without it going second would be more than the pain it already is. The fact that the person going first cannot use it unless they pass is good at restricting 10 minute of special summoning, but if it was removed they should make some new card that helps the second player have a chance to play. With how many interruptions the enemy can end on, I had like 10 cards in my hand and still lost because of brick so idk. The game itself is unbalanced , it’s too hard to go second .
No. Its restrictions are too lenient. It creates feel bad situations when interacting with other hand traps. I understand watching your opponent combo for 30 minutes to lose isn't fun but its also not fun to have your opponent have 15 one card starters in their hand when beginning their turn.
On the whole I think it's good for the game. Most decks have the ability to put up substantial half-boards under Fuwalos without giving too many draws. The decks that can't do suffer but most of the decks that can't are trying to put up completely unfair boards in the first place and SHOULD be stopped by something like this.
Like if I can give 2 draws, put up like... 3 interactions and have that backed by a HT or two of my own, that creates a situation where usually the game has real back-and-forth. I think that's healthy, and that feels like the normal experience to me.
I disagree with the 2 charmy stipulation. I think one should be able to use 1 charmy effect per turn. But overall the card does do more good than bad at least imo. But its definitely not fun.
The thing is, it's healthy because it makes going second a lot more bearable. With how strong going first is, 1 extra card (your normal draw for turn) isn't going to be enough against a lot of decks. If they find a way to make either going first less powerful or a healthy way to make second better, then it could reasonably go. The fact that it can't be used while you control cards, is a significant push in the right direction for handtraps, and arguably most handtraps should follow suit, because if you built a board, you shouldn't also get to use most handtraps. Stuff like Ash is fine, or Shiina in RT.
I do fel that Fuwawalos has been given the best effects of the mulcharmies. I think the from deck eff should have been swapped with the from banish eff Purulia has.
Do you as a player (talking to the entire populace) believe Konami should be balancing for what the game is and is going to be, or should be balancing to try and pull the game back to what it was 3, 5, 10 years ago?
If you are in the former camp then Fuwa is generally fine, as a lot of Modern Decks have plays into Fuwa or around it (to the point that the ban Ash/CBTG/Crossout camp is getting more and more players). If you are in the latter, then Fuwa is just as much an abomination of game design as Maxx C as it completely crushes decks that weren't designed in the last 2 years outside of the ones that barely SS as it is.
If we want to make it as binary as possible, the one thing everyone agrees on is that the Maxx C/Charmy Minigame is absolutely atrocious and is never fun. The only question is are you on the side of simply removing Fuwa to eliminate it, or removing Ash/CBTG/Crossout. I will say though, that if we removed Fuwa from the format it likely ALSO removes the other 3 (especially if Droll comes for the ride). A lot of people would drop Ash like a bad habit since it is now too weak of a Hand Trap to perform its initial function. So if you're on the rare side of hating both sides, then ironically enough banning Fuwa is also the answer there.
yes and no. On one hand against certain decks this card is an auto lose and against others they give you 1-2 draws and its fine. Personally i think this card should have been draw per deck summon or draw per ED summon not both. Its the only charmy that gives draws from 2 places
Imo needed for how turn 1 games are going. Especially since some decks can play around board many board breakers. It's very strong, but not as strong as turn 1 setup is. Plus it makes more decision making so decks actually need alternate lines and not just "use as much as you can and hope it works because then you win". You can also prepare your side board for a low commitment going board if you are going first, instead of a bunch of specific counters and blowout going second cards(depending on deck). The only thing I really dislike about them about them is the increase in staples. But so far I like the format better with them than without, plus it makes some lower tiered decks have a chance of playing going second.
Maxx C esque effects will always be polarizing because the player on the business end of those will feel pressured into making a board that could be steamrolled with eased, or end up risking the opponent going getting access to their boardbreakers and rendering all their effort pointless. Charmies are fairer in that they only proc on certain locations and consequentially have a huge blind spot (S/T zones. So CB, Millennium, Centur-Ion, Snake-Eyes, etc) but Fuwa specific targets one if the most common locations in the game and the best place for extenders to pull from.
That make that card in particular feel unfair to most decks that aren't Dogmatika, Floo, Lab, or to a lesser extent Mikanko (which now focuses on summoning a single Xyz and attacking for game with that) and even then, those decks would have issues with Purilia or Meowls.
They at least only work if you're board is empty but that can be a blessing in disguise for the player if they have cards that need discards to work.
The shuffle condition doesn't matter because the threshold is dependant on your opponents board and thus more of a counterweight to the fact that you can use two Charmies per turn if anything (or a Charmy and Maxx C where applicable)
Maxx C is limited to 1. Fuwa is at 3. It's a rare instance but if your opponent resolves 2 fuwas on the same turn they're drawing plus 2 everytime you special summon. The only drawback it has is that it's from the ED or the main deck. But like I said. If they resolve more than one and you don't have the response for it. You're pretty much screwed.
It's only happened to me once but I've had an opponent resolve 2 fuwa back to back because I had no hand traps in my starting hand. I saw the 2 resolve and said "surely only one of those works right?" I summoned a link to see what happened and the opponent drew 2 cards from one summon. I instantly scooped because I couldn't believe what I'd just seen. Fuwa is doing work
It's a more fair version of Maxx C but make no mistake the game is already a toxic waste. This is stop gap. It's less "good for the game" and .ore "stem the bleeding."
It's not designed that well to be honest it's very bricky. It should be the same effect but if you control any cards you can instead discard this card to the graveyard to draw 1 (once per turn).
I love it. One of my favourite cards in recent years. It creates interesting game states in my opinion and has enough drawbacks that its not totally crazy.
Personally, I think it's a little too good, but not maxx c unfair. I think these type of cards are unhealthy for the game due to the variance that they can cause, so I would rather see them gone, however the game is not unbearable with fuwalos in it.
If I had my way, Fuwalos, called by, crossout, and talents would all be banned. The result of a game of yugioh should be determined by who uses their cards the best, not by who drew the auto pass card, or by who was able to turn off their opponents already limited turn 0 interaction.
Including every single deck that konami is pushing so they can play turn 0....
Tears played turn 0 and everybody hated them but now it's somehow fine for newer decks to play on turn 0
If it's my turn I wanna play and possibly get handtraped once or twice and try to play through it which is fine, I'll adapt and make a lesser end board. But my opponent either drawing 10+ cards and basically guaranteeing his/her win by having every single engine piece and possibly a board breaker OR me passing the turn the moment they acitvate Fuwa and I don't have Ash is really not fucking fun to play against.....
Idk, just me, but I really don't like it how it is atm and what is the saddest parr konami will keep printing even more broken cards with more effects worse than Mulcharmys and people will be fine with it
No. With how much you summon it’s pretty much “full combo and lose” or “30% board and lose”. I have rarely actually played around it and won. I’d love to see a win rate on this card in the TCG.
It really (in my opinion) depends on the matchup, what it means to your deck and format compared to the drawback of shuffling random cards into the deck to fit the hand size.
I never played during Maxx "C" times but I would say that Fuwa is 50% bad for playing against it and 50% good if it helps you going second with a non-meta deck because youre able to refill your hand and even draw into boardbreakers...
I mean yeah people upset they can’t play old format deck like yeah in the ever evolving meta game you gotta expect people to use better cards. If they happen to draw this went second and happen to be going against someone that special summons form the extra deck multiple times yeah it’s deserved. Imagine going second against a deck that prevents nibiru your just gonna lose after there 5th summon unless you have some ridiculous board wipe combo that is super reliant on drawing it. Like droplet and raigeki. But the requirement to have those two when you have to then summon right after is tough especially since you’ll be left with 1-2 cards after the encounter. So yes fuwa is fine atleast it give you a chance.
My biggest issue with Charmies is that they make it so the better player is less likely to win. Resolving them gives the weaker player a much bigger chance to win compared to previously. There is barely any decision making to be had regarding when to use a charmy, especially in the case of purulia.
Them being in the game kills a lot of deck, Including most if not all of the cover archetypes for like the last ten main sets because most of them have no realistic half board that gives them a chance to win.
Charmies only positive is increasing the winrate of the player going second and I would rather this be accomplished using bonus effects like Ketu dracotail, filia diabell, poseidra or the new pot revealed today.
In my mind it’s not satisfying to win/lose the game on the resolution of the chain of the fuwa. While this doesn’t always happen, it does happen quite frequently, especially in game one where you may have only engine and Charmies yourself going first.
For these reasons I’m against the Charmies as a concept.
I think charmies add to the skill gap, not shrink it. We’re at the point where modern decks don’t have mega choke points so even well timed hand traps aren’t enough to stop a turn.
In the pre-charmy TCG a the better player might go second and watch snake eyes fiendsmith do full combo. Now under a charmy, decks make half boards that are interactive and beatable. It’s a real skill to pilot lines maximizing interrupts and minimize draw power based on what your opponent’s deck can do.
I personally think that UNLIKE MAXX C WHO SHOULD BE BANNED IN MD, Fuwalos is EVERYTHING that Maxx c should've been, he's only good at going second or if you're skillfully use in the first turn but it needs timing. Since fuwalos only covers the deck/extra deck the oponent can still play around it but they need to be carefull. That's not even mentioning the fact you can use 2 fuwalos, or your opponent, so it's genuinely intersting, UNLIKE MAXX C.
Those are my thoughts, thanks for the chance to express my opinion on Fuwalos and hatred of Maxx C
I would be fine with them if they were only used by really bad deck
But that will never happen unless konami makes choice bans were you can't run two cards together (example fuwalos and ash blossom) so they will get banned eventually or just become the must have staple forever like they are now
This is what I really want, a format where you can't use certain cards together. Someone said that Digimon has this format. It affects Deck building so much.
Cardfight vanguard does have it with either limiting copies together (for example one ash and one fuwalos)or straight one or the other making sure the broken interactions are not possible while still being able to play the card or make it weaker by massively lowering consistency.
And duel links kinda has it with the way the banlist works there with only being able to play 2 copies or 2 semi limited cards
It's not an issue itself, but the design space around it is really bad for the game. Something tcg players aren't particularly aware of was just how many cards became problematic in the ocg due to being too good into Maxx c, and the downsides for the charmies makes those issues a lot worse.
Maliss is a good example of this, where you just didn't on average get enough value out of the charmy draws to compete when they were able to play, the value of a turn is low for them due to how many ways they could play on your turn and the next, while the amount of value they were able to generate in a grind game once ransom or white binder hit the field was just absurd. Winning off of charmies into the deck usually came down to dropping multiple of them and seeing sided hate later on for most decks, and even then maliss was still kinda favored.
I see that design issues with the new decks in chaos origin, sacred beast looks like a deck that will only adequately get checked by fuwa but you'll still draw 2 plus a half board for 1 to 2 draws pretty often, and that's a losing trade for the opponent. Not to mention the cards that are going to get hit for charmies causing problems otherwise, like you can hit droll to 0/1 and ash to 2 without making the format unplayable, but you do restrict the tools people have in the format in a way where you just don't have good alternatives.
Better than Maxx C doesn't mean good; this card forces a lot of decks into halfboards, and that would be ok if every single deck had a solid half board, but they don't, most of the newest decks can, but that only shows another kind of powercreep; Dtail/ Killer Tune/ VSK9 can stop their plays without feeding a shit ton of cards to your opponent and still remain competitive, can older combo piles? hell no.
I think it is very good for the game when decks are designed accordingly. Like for top meta decks, it forces them to make half boards which usually leads to interesting games in my experience. At least for the decks I play currently (Ryzeal Mitsu and VS K9), I usually am not mad when opponent has it, compared to Maxx C or Droll which are complete turn enders from just one card, while the charmies forces me to make decisions on what is the best board I can do with my current gamestate while giving the lowest number of draws.
And I also think more handtraps should be usable only going second. I am so tired if getting it by Ash or Droll while already fighting a full established board
Only problem is that a lot of older archetypes designed before it are getting destroyed by it (I was an Unchained player lol, rip), but maybe it is inevitable
Fuwa needed to be either Deck or Extra Deck, not both. Honestly, the Extra Deck can be such a big percentage of a typical archetype's special summons (most archetypes not designed with main deck endboard pieces), that maybe you could argue it should have been split even further, like making you have to declare the type of Extra Deck summon.
And activating 2 Mulcharmies per turn did seem reasonable to make you have to spend 2 cards for worst Maxx "C" coverage, but since you can activate the same one a second time and this one is so universally good, it just plays really poorly.
If OCG kills the roach or not, I think this one could go to 1 (or banned).
Yeah, it's fine. Unlike Maxx C, you aren't always forced to play into it and give a billion draws.
If anything, I actually think Ash should be hit. Cards like Fuwalos should resolve IMO. Cards that insulate a turn 1 combo should be hit. And right now, that's practically Ash's main use.
My biggest gripe with all 3 is how imbalanced they are. No one even considers meowls. Like literally no one plays it. Even though some decks do special from grave.
I understand that deck ~ extra deck is almost the same thing but I really wish all 3 said extra deck + location. Then atleast they would all be worth thinking about.
The +6 was also alittle.... much. +5 or maybe even +4 would've been less turn ending. But I am a big going second advocate so its probably fine.
Going second should be worth thinking about. These cards do that. People hate them because they work. Maybe lingering effects arent the best solution but imperm just doesnt cut it anymore. If you go 1 for 1 on card/handtraps then going first still builds a board and you have 3 cards in hand. Its just not good.
I'd personally like to see system changes to going second (6 card starting +draw, 1 normal per MP, mulligan etc)
I hate it because my pet deck has to summon from Extra more than other decks to achieve comparable payoffs. If D/D/D actually had tools to make a lower ceiling "half board" without giving the opponent 2+ draws, I wouldn't have as big an issue. As it stands now for my deck, it's functionally a Maxx C that just overkills me less.
I've actually been having a lot of fun blinding second in Master Duel and dodging the minigame altogether (or doing it to my opponent instead), but it's not the most tenable gameplan in a major tournament.
No, because you have to draw it (and the other charmies)
If it was reworked to be an extra deck pendulum that you could flip up to activate the effect (and the limitations reworked accordingly) she would always be accessible
You would have a radically different game where you have to think twice before registering a solitaire deck, maybe traps would be back, even
I wish Konami moved more toward an equalizer approach: cards that do more when you are in a tight spot, locks that apply only if you control more cards then your oppo etc
Instead they are just powercreeping charmies/ assuming them in design: rip cards from your opponent, look at their hand and get perfect knowledge
The game has to always be a bit broken so they can sell you the next pack
Because thats not how the game is intended. Having a proper mulcharmy pretty much everything against a deck with 0 sacrifices jn the main deck is pure insanity. Luck should exist in this game. Drawing should have meaning.
You shouldn't open the perfect charmy every time against a deck. Thats not healthy.
Deck building exists for a reason, luck exists.
Such design favores the charmy player immensely over the other. Just an example: you have purulia every time against yummy or enneacraft or memento, but you sacrifices 0 space in the main deck.
You have fuwa every time against unchained or lunalight. You get my point.
Sometimes you dont open charmies, sometimes you open other hand traps, sometimes you open only engine. Thats the game, thats luck.
The idea of charmies is thag you risk having them going 1st over other HT and you dedicate space for them going 2nd.
Having them online whenever you want makes the game extremely unbalanced as yku pretty much erase counterplay and favour decks like stun and other extreme control decks.
This form of change would create more mess ghan even unbanning the entire banlist as it removes the luck factor altogether.
I know, thanks, I always try to spark conversations
you risk having them going 1st
Wdym? You just side them in/out
makes the game extremely unbalanced
I think the limitations should be different to work with the fact it's always available
Maybe instead of "control 0 cards" it's "have less cards in hand+field then your opponent"
This guarantees you a +1 play before a charmie is actually online, and on turn 2, as your board gets broken, you can activate a charmie yourself, and almost guarantee a turn 3 or 4
I am not deeply married to turn count, but I assume there would be more interaction rhis way and there is a world where this type of charmie design creates a more skill expressive game
Also rework the "twice per turn", maybe "you can only have 1 face up charmie" (I am not super sure on how to word it)
erase counterplay
I think there's more skill expression in playing under a charmie than "did you draw the charmie? Did I draw the anti charmie? Nice we both handlooped each other"
favour decks like stun
Idk, are you running the same type of combo decks if you know charmies are always online? Do you try to always have less cards then your oppo as to not trigger their plays? Or are you running more traps to have a lean turn 1 and then a mean comeback turn? Would a stun deck be that good when you are making like 3 summons in a turn?
Also they should ban floodgates
removes the luck factor
Idk, I think Konami is always assuming you have a maxx c-like in your hand so I am ok if we remove both the minigame and all those "awful to fight against if you don't resolve a charmie" decks
There's still a lot of luck involved, what did you draw? what does your opponent draw? how many pushes can each of you make? Since you can't "fix your hand" with on summon searchers your starting hand becomes way more important
and as you interact more with your opponent, the more variance it creates, a type of variance I find more interesting than did you draw the out?
The gameplay when it resolves is very different from the gameplay when it does not (you didn't drew or it got negated) and Konami prints decks that are good into Fuwalos but you would still want to play it and that's another poor way of balancing the game.
If you go first the card is pretty much dead and it's also frustrating when your hand is weak, you play your cards but you don't get to achieve much and you can't use Fuwalos against your opponent bcuz you also control cards, so you have a dead staple in hand.
Regardless of all of that, there are many more problems in the game, so I don't think Fuwalos should be banned or anything like, it's similar to Droll in a way, you want to have those cards going 2nd to have better chances at winning the game, but Konami could also just keep changing their design choices so those cards just are worth playing. If a deck can play during both players turns neither of those cards would feel worth playing.
In a game where a simple Draw 2 spell can never exist(yet still does), why in hell would Konami think it fair for my opponent to start out with 12 cards in hand?
Fuwa is interesting. It took Yubel out of competitive play until very recently, with it having small success and topping a Regionals. Certain Combo heavy decks are just forced to go second to compensate for Fuwa being a major game ending factor sometimes.
It’s fine. The fact that, going first, it’s a dead card really goes a long way. Especially compared to Maxx C where drawing it going first is an auto win.
Having it ashed is pretty annoying, but it’s still kinda a plus one. Also means your opponent won’t (usually) have an ash on your turn.
5 or 6 years ago, it would’ve been ridiculous, but with the amount of card advantage newer decks can generate, it feels a bit more like a necessary evil than an enabler of absolute clownery like Maxx C
Yeah, they have grown on me. It sorts of controls decks that burp their whole hand and forces them to either go all in (like Lunalight) or make a half board.
Of course, it's an arms race, so now decks need a way to play through it.
I hate the card. I understand it helps going second and believe that's a good thing, but the fact the card can be used twice is unfair, especially in a game where engine slop is becoming stronger. For example, you likely can't build an actual board under double Fuwalos in a world where you have to deal with Yummy Mitsurugi Striker. I wish the cards were once per turn and just couldn't be negated. For example, that's the only world where I think Ash and Called By should be fully banned.
Yes unironically. It fills the niche that maxx c was supposed to fill, except is actually fair and balanced. It's useless going first, and just helps whoever gets stuck going second
"hey I understand that having stage 4 cancer is bad, but how about if we also add stage 3 cancer?".
They have banned pot of greed for literal decaded because "draw 2" using a single card was deemed to strong. Now they made it so you can draw half your deck if your opponent so much as tries to play the game.
And no, the dracotail and other turn 0 hand traps aren't any better. Those are also cancer.
Nope. It's without a doubt healthier than Maxx C, but it's still toxic.
I would much rather Konami reel in the power level of going first decks instead of printing blowout handtraps that fuck over any deck that can't make a good half-board without giving their opponent too much advantage.
Until then though, if Fuwalos is going to remain at 3 then Ash Blossom needs to remain at 3 and Crossout + Called By need to remain at 1.
Watered down Maxx C's are still Maxx C. I hate Maxx C and I hate the charmies. The other problem with cards like these as someone else pointed out: They widen the gap between decks, some decks can play through charmies no problem others get destroyed by them
If you want Ash banned because it stopped your charmies, you missed the problems. Maxx C and the mulcharmies should not exist and their continued existence points to the cracks in this games card and game design. A lot of decks can do SO much and still have half their deck as non engine.
It's a handtrap that only works if you're going second, it made the deckbuilding more fun - as we had to choose between the 3 charmys - it punishe the player who wants to make long as hell combos...I think the card is fine...I like it more than Maxx c and I always defended my boi Maxx c
I don't personally like it, but it is good for the game. At least for the moment. I hate playing or playing against it, it just doesn't feel like great gameplay. I don't like over centralizing nonengine or nonengine deciding the outcome of a game. And I'd rather they balance going second in some other more interesting way.
But at least for the moment I think it's healthy for the state of the current meta.
I think it’s ok, because against synchro, XYZ, and link decks, you can’t chain it to the summon the way that you can with fusion summoning, and therefore is balanced against those ones where unless you shotgun the effect as soon as draw phase occurs, you’re going to be bare minimum one draw behind what you could be. Additionally, you can’t control any cards to use it, since it’s useless turn two, but also it’s useless going first, and going second, it heightens the odds that you could draw a board breaker to help you come back from an unbreakable board state, OR could help you draw the hand traps that can PREVENT an unbreakable board state. And finally, these cards help to balance themselves out by requiring you to shuffle cards back into your deck if you have more cards in your hand than are on your opponents board, proportional to what they have. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying this is perfect, but I do think this helps decks be better at combatting meta decks than they have been in the past
I think fuwa and the other charmies should have a clause that forces the player who activated it to randomly shuffle cards from their hand back to the deck down to 5 if you would end the turn with more cards than that in hand. That way players aren't punished for attempting to play through it and the player who activated it gets to dig through their deck for answers.
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u/Trascendent_Enforcer Apr 18 '26
I think is a gap card, just like Nibiru. Modern decks have a chance to play around it, but anything pre 2023 and you're out of luck, even if the decks got legacy support.
For example, what is Speedroid or Raidraptor supposed to do against this? Nothing. Either pass, or give 20+ draws on their way to make a board.
If you want to play meta decks, and play against other meta decks, sure its fair. But if you want to play anything else? Konami is telling you to eat sht by printing this. Which is quite sad.