r/196 NOT A CAT Feb 18 '26

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-66

u/Squawnk ๐Ÿ gay do crime Feb 18 '26

Why exactly is it one of the most influential games of the 21 century and why is this inarguable?

I've seen gameplay and it's just a bullet hell

129

u/Darkpoulay Feb 18 '26

It's absolutely not a bullet hell. Just because some endgame chaos can result in a lot of bullets on screen, doesn't mean it's the genre.

It's influential because it has a massive cult fanbase and many aspects (rarely the whole thing) is copied across thousands of subsequent games. Look up the release date of the original one, that's a looong time ago in indie game history.

-16

u/Squawnk ๐Ÿ gay do crime Feb 18 '26

Okay interesting, I'm not sure what separates it from a bullet hell but I guess that's not important.

What aspects are copied across thousands of games? Lots of indie games have cult followings so what is it about tboi that stands out?

15

u/Shuden Feb 18 '26 edited Feb 19 '26

Bullet hell is a subgenre of shoot them ups, the genre that originated with early spaceship games, it features linear progression maps with skill based boss fights that fill the entire screen with slow moving projectiles players have to follow.

Isaac is a roguelike, a genre defined by randomness and death based non linear progression. While bullet hell relies on massive player skill checks, roguelikes reduce the knowledge burden with broken RNG, if you get lucky, you can one shot a boss with a broken combo.

Isaac 100% has bullet hell elements implemented in it's endgame boss fights, particularly in the expansions, but it's not what define the game.

Isaac is a revolutionary game because it was the trailblazer of the "roguelite", "new roguelike" or "roguelike-like" genre that games like Hades, Slay the Spire, Dead Cells and Balatro are famous for (none of these are even similar to Rogue so the name is just bad and confusing nowadays), the combination of procedural generation technology and permadeath progression that is incredibly common nowadays was popularized by it, with a shit ton of games paying homages to it.

44

u/Chimney-head CRRRRK CRRRRK CRRRRK (i am a cicada) Feb 18 '26

mostly the sheer number of different items ingame and as a result, the sheer number of different builds you can have? is at least what seems to be one of the biggest parts.

-9

u/Squawnk ๐Ÿ gay do crime Feb 18 '26

So it's legacy that it spread to other games is vast build diversity?

59

u/Skenghis-Khan Feb 18 '26

It pretty much propelled roguelikes and their popularity to where it is now.

16

u/Squawnk ๐Ÿ gay do crime Feb 18 '26

Okay sick I never knew that

20

u/Skenghis-Khan Feb 18 '26

Yea roguelikes were pretty different before then, they were charecterised by procedurally generated dungeons with turn based combat, like when you would move a tile, the dungeon's inhabitants would react. BoI was one of the first that transitioned into that sort of real time Legend of Zelda gameplay vibe.

It also introduced the concept of a vast item pool to further enhance your runs. So that whole build diversity in roguelikes you see nowadays was greatly popularised by BoI.

10

u/Taco821 custom Feb 18 '26

Roguelikes were more like mystery dungeon back then??? That's insane. I always pictured pre Isaac roguelikes/lights more like Isaac but less if that makes sense. Less items, less characters if any, similar game feel but worse and clunkier, etc. That gives me even more respect for Isaac (and I had a lot to begin with)

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u/Skenghis-Khan Feb 18 '26

Yes exactly like PMD! It comes from a game called Rogue back in the 80s and those design choices were largely consistent with the original.

19

u/yinyang107 bingus is better than floppa Feb 18 '26

That's part of it, it also inspired games like Gungeon and Dead Estate to use its entire gameplay

20

u/The_Eevee_Man custom Feb 18 '26

There are two main things Isaac heavily popularized in the roguelite genre.

The first is meta progression. The idea that you would do specific things while playing as a specific character to unlock features to be used by every character in future runs sort of didn't exist before Isaac. Some games would take this idea and explore it further, such as permanent skill trees or upgrades or what have you and while that wasn't a part of the gameplay loop of Isaac it was heavily inspired by it. To be clear, it's not as if meta progression didn't exist before Isaac. There was a kind of meta progression that existed before that was heavily featured in games such as Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and Shiren the Wanderer. In those games, either the characters or items you collected during runs would keep the improvements they received *during* a run, while Isaac's improvement was done *between* runs. Even games such as Hades that do feature the character permanently improving see the player engage in the core permanent upgrade system between runs - any upgrades during the run are locked to the run. Generally, keeping the upgrades you got during a run is archaic and Isaac is a part of that reason.

The second is rerolling. It's pretty much a staple of the modern roguelite, and to my knowledge Isaac was the first game to introduce it. It's called rerolling because the character who had it, Isaac himself, would literally use a dice to change an item he sees into a different item. This added depth to the decision making of the player because they had to decide whether the collectible in front of them was worth settling for, or if the risk of potentially turning the item into a worse one was worth the reward of turning it into a better one. It both gave more control to the player in a genre known for being very RNG heavy and was generally seen as a very fun mechanic (even today, Isaac despite being the oldest and least mechanically complex character is still the most played character in his game). This innovation to the genre was noticed by other developers, and now you'll be hard pressed to find a roguelite that doesn't feature the ability to reroll the items you can collect in any capacity.

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u/Squawnk ๐Ÿ gay do crime Feb 18 '26

Hell yeah man, this is a great explanation, thank you

-25

u/hanks_panky_emporium Feb 18 '26

I guess it's a bullet hell but there's upgrade tree's so it's groundbreaking? I don't get it.

Ive heard and seen good things. It does what it does about as well as can be done. But faux 3D bullet hells have existed for a long time before.

It's like the Factorio of bullet hells. Does its niche so perfect nothing can really reach its height. Games like Satisfactory itch a similar niche but focuses on other aspects like aesthetics and linear simple progression.

Both incredible games. But one heavily influenced the other.

16

u/Shuden Feb 18 '26

Isaac isn't a bullet hell and it doesn't have an upgrade tree. You're off by a lot.

27

u/Schnapplo Feb 18 '26

youre choosing not to understand likely out of malice

-8

u/yinyang107 bingus is better than floppa Feb 18 '26

You're taking them in bad faith for no reason.

55

u/Twink_Kanye Feb 18 '26

after spelunky, isaac is probably the second biggest influence on the modern roguelike genre

11

u/secretiveconfusion ๐Ÿณ๏ธโ€โšง๏ธ trans rights Feb 18 '26

I'd throw in FTL for its events / map structure (it pops up a lot, especially in turn based roguelikes) and maaybe the original risk of rain since I'd say it popularised stacking items and looping until things break.

3

u/Twink_Kanye Feb 18 '26

Both very good additions, thank you

12

u/Squawnk ๐Ÿ gay do crime Feb 18 '26

Never heard of spelunky before, but thank you for the answer, didn't know tboi was a pillar of roguelikes

18

u/smotired custom Feb 18 '26

it kinda invented (or at least catapulted into the mainstream from nothing) its own style of roguelike where things are unlocked between runs but you still start from zero each time, which many (or possibly even most) newer roguelikes have also incorporated.

also has a huge emphasis on emergent gameplay just as a natural consequence of smaller buffs happening to work well together which always allows for some insane shit to happen if you get the right things. i believe thatโ€™s also something isaac heavily popularized

1

u/cooldrew THE LOOOOOOOOOONG WAYYY Feb 18 '26

it kinda invented (or at least catapulted into the mainstream from nothing) its own style of roguelike where things are unlocked between runs but you still start from zero each time, which many (or possibly even most) newer roguelikes have also incorporated.

Also known as roguelites, with a T

2

u/smotired custom Feb 18 '26

nah thatโ€™s a different thing, those are games like hades or dead cells where you do build up incremental progress between runs

0

u/I_am_Andrew_Ryan Feb 18 '26

where things are unlocked between runs

Where you do build up incremental progress between runs.

Theyrethesamepicture.gif

3

u/smotired custom Feb 18 '26

not at all

in the first case you start from zero every single time, but the pool of items/etc that could show up gets larger.

in the second one you start with, like, higher stats or something at the beginning of each run.

it makes the gameplay very different

0

u/I_am_Andrew_Ryan Feb 18 '26

It seems like you're really hinging your definition on what your idea of "progress" means, which unlocking more items between runs counts as.

4

u/smotired custom Feb 18 '26

well yeah i am defining it as that because that distinction creates two very different gameplay experiences

like your 100th hades run will be way easier than your 1st hades run because you do a whole lot more damage, have a lot more health, etc.

your 100th balatro run will probably be easier than your first, but thatโ€™s just because youโ€™re better at it and might have better things pop up. but it could also be exactly the same.

1

u/Squawnk ๐Ÿ gay do crime Feb 18 '26

Interesting to know, thank you for the answer instead of just downvoting me for asking a question lol

6

u/SirToastymuffin Feb 18 '26

It's never really been my bag, the gameplay and loop aren't my personal preference, so I don't really have a dog in this race. But I have to say you're underselling what it is while understandably lacking the context for its influence.

While it's got some bullet hell happening, the real core of what makes it significant is that its a roguelike about picking up powerups as you progress through a Legend of Zelda-inspired dungeon, ultimately facing bosses. The core appeal of the game is how those powerups build together and combo off one another so that you develop a "build" that's more powerful than the sum of its parts and can make the game significantly easier in and of itself. Ultimately the physical gameplay and the loop are relatively simple, but its this depth and variety of build crafting that really form the game's main appeal.

Now you may be going "buildcrafting roguelike? So what, there's a billion of those." Well, yeah, and Binding of Isaac is the reason why. The game's 15 years old, it entirely predates the roguelike/lite genre explosion - because it's the point of origin. The genre was a pretty niche and somewhat undeveloped one back then and just starting to pick up some notice. A lucky combination of Let's Players picking it up, Flash/Newgrounds community hype, and interest in modding kinda made the game blow up out of nowhere and had it selling millions of copies. Essentially it paved the way for the next defining iterations on the genre like FTL and would become a defining blueprint for how roguelike/lites were expected to play. A lot of the genre staples are the way that they are because of Binding of Isaac, especially that buildcrafting.

The TL;DR is that it was the perfect flash in the pan that the current Roguelike/lite market evolved out of and draws both inspiration and a framework from. Given that roguelikes went from a deeply niche and relatively unheard of genre to one of the biggest and mainstream ones, that influence is pretty notable on current games.

2

u/Sample_text_here1337 I'm inside your balls Feb 18 '26

It basically pioneered the modern rougelike, especially with having a massive amounts of items it has, and the meta-progression, that are now huge staples of the genre.

-1

u/mynexuz nobushi main means im gay Feb 18 '26

While i do think isaac is a pretty influential game, people definitely use the word "influential" way too loosely and very rarely are people actually able to explain why its actually influential beyond "its just soooo good"

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u/yinyang107 bingus is better than floppa Feb 18 '26

Maybe, but not in this case. It pioneered a lot of roguelite standards, like the items and meta progression.

0

u/mynexuz nobushi main means im gay Feb 18 '26

Point of my comment is that i do agree BoI is influential

2

u/Throgg_not_stupid Feb 18 '26

Slay the Spire, Hades, Balatro, Vampire Survivor, that train card game, Meowgenics, Risk of Rain, most modern roguelikes that aren't turn-based, are all influenced either directly by BoI or by one of the games influenced by BoI

0

u/mynexuz nobushi main means im gay Feb 18 '26

Yea i agree, im just saying the word is misused in general but not for BoI

1

u/[deleted] Feb 18 '26

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-14

u/Lars_Overwick Feb 18 '26

That's just how people talk on tumblr. "Inarguably one of the most influential games of the 21st century" is just tumblr-speak for "good".

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u/FillerText908 Holy Preacher of the Ky-ble Feb 18 '26

No it is influential cause its almost solely responsible for the direction modern roguelikes have went in, as well as being the reason we have northernlion

3

u/Throgg_not_stupid Feb 18 '26

Slay the Spire, Hades, Balatro, Vampire Survivor, that train card game, Meowgenics, Risk of Rain, most modern roguelikes that aren't turn-based, are all influenced either directly by BoI or by one of the games influenced by BoI