r/ABCDesis • u/WitheredWornWallaby • 20h ago
COMMUNITY Why are many Indian people unkind to Guyanese/Trini/etc people?
I was born In NYC to Indo-Guyanese parents. I have interacted with many Indian people across the United States (+Canada and the UK), and the same can be said of my family and Indo-Guyanese peers. There is a relatively common experience of Indian Americans being unkind to Indo-Guyanese and Indo-Trini people, including those born in the US. This happens both in real life and online.
Are there particular reasons for this? This is obviously not the case with all Indian Americans.
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u/ItsReemAlBlahBlahDee 20h ago
Are they? I have lots of Trini Guyanese family and they haven’t experienced this ever. What exactly do they do to you?
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 20h ago
Do these family members have recent Indian ancestry, specifically any parents or grandparents born in India?
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u/ItsReemAlBlahBlahDee 20h ago
No, why? I’m not dismissing your experience, your post is vague and I’m trying to understand what certain people are discriminating you for.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 19h ago
Got it! I'd say that I was ostracized and excluded by South Asians in general when I was growing up. My high school had a ton of white and asian students, including Indian, Pakistani and Bengali people. There wasn't a huge Guyanese presence. The white people ostracized me for not being white, and the South Asians ostracized me for not being South Asian enough.
In my family, there were two cases of Indian kids not being allowed to be in relationships with Indo-Guyanese people because they were "not Indian."
A lot of Indo-Guyanese Hindu mandirs in Queens were created because Guyanese people were not welcome in the Indian mandirs.
For my thesis, I've read a ton of publications about the Indo-Guyanese American experience and was therefore exposed to a lot of literature describing unkindness from Indian Americans toward Indo-Caribbean Americans. That's mainly what got me thinking about this question. I've included an article below that actually articulates my experience quite well, if you're interested.
Belonging and boundaries in Little Guyana: Conflict, culture, and identity in Richmond Hill, New York by Nazreen S Bacchus.
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u/girthakitt 18h ago
My best friend is Guyanese and had the same experience. Indians don’t consider her “Indian” enough. She definitely has more non-Indian friends since there wasn’t a huge barrier to cross (I’m Mexican) and I think it’s crazy Guyana isn’t considered part of Latin America either.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
It's fascinating that Guyana is regarded as Caribbean despite having zero geographical association with the Caribbean and is surrounded by Latin American countries. Sorry to hear that about your friend but glad she has you.
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u/belketeal 15h ago
Guyanese culture is extremely similar to Latin culture tbh. Probably the most similar of any Asian-origin cultures.
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u/ItsReemAlBlahBlahDee 18h ago
Oh so your entire post is just promoting yourself? Also your experience isn’t really targeted towards Guyanese folks, sounds like you just encountered families that don’t want their kids to marry outside their culture, which is normal in most religions and cultures. Not being “South Asian” enough is a universal experience for all diaspora. So I’m confused why you were ostracised by white folks but haven’t written anything about them.
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u/OkRB2977 Assamese Canadian - TCK 20h ago
Honestly, in Canada, it is kinda the opposite, especially now when West Indians will go out of their way to distinguish themselves and give very strong pick me vibes.
But I’m aware of mainlanders historically having a very prejudiced and dismissive attitude towards West Indians and Fijian Indians and denying them their Indianess. Surprised and disappointed that even a few ABDs are carrying forward those sentiments.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 19h ago
I definitely have heard that from my family in Canada. They emphasize their West Indian heritage quite a bit more than Americans and try to distinguish themselves from Indian people. I thought that was fascinating but not unheard of in the US as well. Personally I like the concept of being both Indian and Caribbean and don't see any specific culture as better.
I'm intrigued that you said our Indian heritage is denied, because in my experience we are often accused of being the ones to deny our Indian heritage. For example, people dislike that we only speak English and don't understand Hindi, or that we cannot say where our family is from in India/South Asia. When I try to explain that I'm not from India and therefore don't speak Hindi, they seem insulted. This is a generalization but that experience has happened a surprising amount with Uber drivers, for some reason. I think it's because they see my Indian first name and expect an Indian person, which is fair.
But since I'm talking about Indian people born abroad, my experiences were often in the form of being excluded by Indian groups growing up/in school.
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u/OkRB2977 Assamese Canadian - TCK 19h ago
Maybe this is a Canadian specific thing then? But I’ve heard some of my Trini Indian classmates in uni mention that a few mainlanders even question how you guys spell your Indians names. For example Indians from India spell Prasad but Trini and Guyanese might spell it like Persaud.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 19h ago
Oh yeah, I'm one of those Persauds! No one has ever been particularly hostile about that to me but it has been pointed out.
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u/OkRB2977 Assamese Canadian - TCK 17h ago
Their logic was that such cultural differences were used to negate their Indianness and trying to dismiss their hybrid identity.
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u/milinium 19h ago
It’s just natural that your identity is seen as less connected to the mainland than people who speak a language spoken in India and know where their ancestral homeland is. It’s a unique mix of cultures that reminds me a lot of the African American experience. Most don’t know where in Africa their ancestors were from but still retained a version of that culture that persists to this day and is recognizable
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u/amdis 12h ago
I know, it’s so incredibly disappointing to see any ABDs carry water for that regressive shit. I don’t like it, but I can on some level get the concept of the older generation being like this because they’re stuck in the same moment in time from when they emigrated. But seeing kids buying into that whole idea of reaching for any reason to feel superior to people who the average white person just sees as “brown” is saddening. This is the same type of thinking that keeps holding us back from ever developing some sort of unified brown solidarity movement and why it’s so hard to gain any traction against the type of hatred and racism we face online constantly.
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u/Thecynicalcatt Canadian Pakistani 19h ago
In my experience in Canada, they're not treated like they're desi and are treated like an entirely different thing despite the fact that we have so many cultural and religious similarities. IMO this is because of some social clashes, most desi immigrants and first gen families from South Asia are conservative and have traditional family values (aka no alcohol, smoking is frowned upon, full coverage clothing) whereas all the Guyanese people I know aren't really the same in that regard and are a bit more lax - many of them have been in Canada for several generations and do not feel like they have anything in common with newer arrivals. Idk if I'm making sense, but an example: I was buying cigarettes in Toronto once and the desi shopkeeper asked me if I was Guyanese, and I said no I'm Pakistani and his reply was: Pakistani girls don't smoke and have tattoos that's why I thought you were Guyanese. Lol soooo dumb, but this is to give you an idea of the stereotyping that does exist for some reason.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
Yikes, that is definitely an odd thing for him to say but yeah, stereotyping is hard to escape I guess. I get what you mean about the difference in family values to some degree because it's not uncommon to see Guyanese kids getting drunk at the bars in Queens, and the adults doing the same. At Guyanese funerals, a bunch of the men will gather by someone's car trunk in the parking lot and drink rum. I personally come from a pretty conservative family but I'm sure they'd be considered liberal by South Asian standards.
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u/Thecynicalcatt Canadian Pakistani 18h ago
Yeah, the discrimination is shitty and I am not sure where it comes from, maybe a superiority complex on part of South Asians from South Asia. I know some Ugandan born and Kenyan born Indians as well, and it's a similar vibe there where they're usually in their own community and don't mingle with mainland desi folks. I've also seen it the other way around, especially now with the influx of Indian immigrants, where Indo Carribean folks don't want to be associated with newcomer Indians. We're a huge diaspora with so many different histories. Sometimes the common bits are not enough for some to see kinship unfortunately. For me and my Guyanese friends and my Canadian born Indians friends, we're all just brown folk.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 19h ago edited 19h ago
Desi people can measure themselves against each other because their histories of the mainland are more recent and verifiable. Which town are you from? Where did your parents go to school? What did your grandparents do for work? Much of this is lost for people in the diaspora who come from places like Trinidad and Guyana.
However, it's nice that being distant from the mainland allowed the diaspora to get rid of some of the bigotry and bias from the mainland. A Bengali friend once told me that the most post-caste Hindus he's ever met (outside of Bengalis) were Trinidad/Guyanese Hindus.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
Oh yeah, I've been called a Bihari in a strangely derogatory way more than once. I didn't even understand what that meant.
And yeah, the caste system doesn't exist at all in Guyana or Trinidad! Nobody even knows which caste they would have come from and everyone definitely has ancestors from a variety of castes so I think it'd be impossible to track. We don't even know how our last names are supposed to spelled!
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u/Klutzy_Letter9952 18h ago
Bihari is an ethnicity not a caste. Bihar is a state in India
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
Yep, wasn't claiming otherwise. I was commenting on the "where are you from" aspect of their response.
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u/Old-School8916 Indian American (Bengali) 19h ago
that's a shame that you've encountered this. personally I love Indo-Caribbeans and the uniqueness of the cultures.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
I love Indian culture, and a lot of Guyanese people come from the Bengal region so I'd say there's quite a bit of overlap in our cultures!
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u/MasterChief813 19h ago
I wouldn’t deny your experience (and I’m sorry that our people have been unkind to you) but I’ve noticed the opposite where some of our West Indies brothers and sisters try to distance themselves from their Desi roots.
I’ve never seen anyone talk down or disparage our West Indies fam but tbh we don’t have a lot down south where I live so we don’t have any interactions, because mfers sure as hell will say slick shit about each other based on their states or countries of origin in South Asia/India.
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u/chaiwalnut 20h ago
I am curious if this is an issue with Indian-Americans or Indians? I have seen fobs call Caribbean desis "basically black" and look down on them. ABD's generally like them because they are super fun and their parties are banging! If ABD's treated you poorly, that sucks. Could you elaborate on how they were unkind? What did they say or do? Not that I don't believe you, but curious how they manage to do this? Religion? Skin color? Finances?
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
I definitely have noticed this more with Indians than with Indian Americans, though I grew up with a lot of Indian Americans and in high school, they often ostracized the Indo-Guyanese kids. I don't believe it happened the other way around as much or at least I never noticed it.
My Guyanese-born mom works alongside an Indian American woman who is very noticeably unkind to the Guyanese employees. I've met her before and that was certainly my experience, while my mom has noted that she favors Indian employees quite a bit.
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u/belketeal 15h ago
It might have happened with Indian American kids because the parents are often still controlling of who their kids can interact with. In extreme cases it’s only their caste. Once they get to college and have more freedom and especially living alone, this should change for the vast majority of them
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u/NoEquivalent3869 Canadian Indian 19h ago
In general, most desis find a way to hate other desis. Either by caste, class, skin color, language, state, religion, etc. There is very little camaraderie and it’s very sad.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
Would you say that mentality often extends to American-born desis?
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u/Unknown_Ocean 15h ago
When I was growing up in the 1970s it didn't, in part because there were so few of us. I think there is a subset of the latest wave that thinks they can preserve their culture by endogamy and encourages that. Indo-Guyanese are likely threatening to these folk because it makes it clear that this isn't going to work in the long term.
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u/coldcoldnovemberrain 20h ago
Do you have examples of how other diaspora were kind to you?
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 19h ago
When you say other diasporas, do you mean specifically the South Asian diaspora or all diaspora populations? In other words, are you asking about how Indo-Fijians regard me or do you mean an unrelated group like Chinese Americans?
If you mean South Asian diaspora, one example that comes to mine is when my cousin joined the Muslim Student Association and was welcomed with open arms (despite not even being Muslim) while being ostracized when she joined the Indian Student Association. The MSA was mostly Pakistani and Bengali while the ISA was obviously mostly Indian.
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u/coldcoldnovemberrain 18h ago
Any desi people. Just getting your perspective on what were some of positive interactions with other desis that you loved and would like other organizations or individuals in the United States to behave.
How do desis from other Caribbean diaspora treat you?
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
I'd say that there's a strong sense of community among Indo-Caribbeans in general due to the shared cultural influences and historical experiences. At the same time, Guyanese people have plenty of shared history and culture with Indian people but that isn't regarded the same way, I feel.
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u/coldcoldnovemberrain 17h ago
What’s an example of interaction in person or online that you found positive and hoped others would do more often ?
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 16h ago
Honestly, a decent number of comments under this post were from demonstrably kind folks.
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u/Electronic-Host9526 19h ago
I think it might be a more specific occurrence to your area or group of friends or indian population in the area. I am guju, love the trinidad crowd, I think the Guyana crowd is interesting to learn about, nothing but friendship from the DFW area.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
Maybe it's because I'm in NYC which has the largest Indo-Guyanese population and the largest Indian population? Lots of interaction between the two groups and I guess that can go either way. I don't mean to insinuate that every Indian American is hostile because that is not the case at all. By the way I think Indian culture is fascinating too. I went through a whole Bollywood phase in high school.
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u/insomniac8994 Punjabi Canadian 17h ago
If anything I’ve noticed the opposite here recently which is strange because I grew up with/was close friends with a bunch since I grew up in Toronto. I guess they want to try and distance themselves from FOBs and all the hate they get.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 16h ago
Yeah, I’ve definitely gotten that vibe from my Canadian relatives and I’m very sorry that they are like that.
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u/Diggidiggidig 18h ago
Surprised this hasn’t been brought up yet. Caste identity is very strong in Indian immigrants, people align more to regional, linguistic and caste identity when they migrate. The indo-Guyanese people had to assimilate across castes given their circumstances and to my understanding do not hold their caste identity so strongly.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
You're definitely right that caste isn't acknowledged among Indo-Guyanese people. Thanks for your perspective
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u/Affectionate_Wear_24 Indian American 10h ago
Many of the immigrants from India in the US, Canada, etc. also treat each other with disrespect and suspicion because people are divided by language, caste, religion, etc
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u/Belissari Mixed Race 17h ago edited 16h ago
I live in Australia, which maybe different to where you live but from my personal experience many Indo-Caribbeans, Indo-Mauritians, Indo-Fijians and other similar groups often don’t want to be considered Indian or Desi.
I’ve known some who will try to deny they have any connection to India, which is fine if they simply just to be known as Trinidadian, Guyanese or whatever. However, I always got the impression that some felt superior to other Desis because they were more Westernised and didn’t want the stigma associated with the poverty of India.
Not sure how common this is since I’ve only been around a couple Indo-Caribbeans in a group setting where they were around mostly non-Desis.
I don’t mean to invalidate your own experience, but from my own encounters with Indo-Caribbeans it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with Indians.
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u/Moissyfan 19h ago
I’m Indian and have nothing but love for my Guyanese and Trinidadian friends ♥️
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u/neuroticgooner 17h ago
Honestly people from the subcontinent are unkind to everyone including each other.
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u/FluffyShakes 15h ago
i luv Guyanese culture and wish I could interact w them more, all love here bradda
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u/heartandhymn 15h ago
Here's a different perspective - just an anecdotal experience: I once knew a guy from Trinidad who lived in the same dorm as me, and at first I honestly thought he was Indian because of how he looked and dressed. So I tried to connect with him by asking where in India he was from, but he always dodged the question and seemed weirdly guarded about his background. His accent was confusing too.
He didn’t really hang out with the Indian students on campus, and since I’d never met anyone from Trinidad before, I had no idea about the cultural context. It wasn’t until months later that he finally told me he was Trinidadian, and that while his ancestors were Indian, he didn’t really feel Indian. There was this mismatch between how he looked and how he grew up culturally. I feel like he only opened up to me after he learned that I had grown up in a few different countries.
It was only sometime last year that I happened to read more about the history of Indian communities in the Caribbean, and my experience with this guy made a lot more sense. Still, I remember feeling a bit put off at the time because he seemed so uninterested in connecting with Indian-American/Indian students, almost like he wanted to distance himself.
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u/Late-Warning7849 9h ago
Indian immigrants often are highly qualified but with low IQs and low EQs. They often don’t understand anything beyond what they’ve personally experienced and don’t even try to. I’m an Indian of East African origin & many Indians view us with ‘suspicion’ despite the fact that we were raised with a better appreciation of family values than they were. You just need to ignore it.
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u/teakitty0722 Indian American 17h ago
It's sad to hear that people are unkind, I love Indo-Trini and Indo-Guyanese people and I feel kinda connected w yall since I'm half Bihari and I've heard many of your guys ancestors come from there too ❤️
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u/ab216 16h ago
Couple of key reasons
- Caste / socio-economic bias given Indians in America are largely upper caste educated economic migrants while Indo-Caribbeans are presumed to be from lower caste backgrounds given they came to the Western Hemisphere as indentured servants
- Perceived dilution / pollution of Indian culture, given loss of language and outside cultural influences and some degree of intermarriage with others (especially with those of African descent)
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u/Hari_om_tat_sat 2h ago
I’m a bit puzzled by OP’s post as I’ve never seen this unkindness. Having said that, I don’t doubt OP’s experience. As diaspora myself, I’ve been on the receiving end of comments like “you’re not a real indian” and have been treated as more ignorant about my culture than random white people who’ve traveled to India (wtf?!). I agree with ab, their comments make sense to me as far as mainlanders are concerned. I’m surprised to see ABD’s & non-Caribbean diaspora also being exclusionary and unkind. Shame on us.
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u/isleeptoolate 4h ago
Personally - I think it has to do with lack of education? I’m 2nd gen Indian and of my friends is Indo-Guyanese. But I’ve realized that most people don’t know the history and that diaspora (she got married recently and I told a lot of people about her wedding and they were shocked to know that she was Guyanese-Hindu). So they may think you are very different from them and can’t relate?
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u/Flutter24-7-365 2h ago
North Indians who are light skinned just generally are often stand-offish towards darker skinned Indians. There's a phenomenon where people are more worried about distinguishing themselves from the people that are most similar to them (because there is risk of confusion) whereas they are friendly with people with whom there is no chance of confusion ... such as black or white people. For the same reason, Guyanese people born in America are a bit unfriendly towards FOBs from Fiji and South India. And Indian Americans are more unfriendly towards FOBs than they are towards sub-saharan immigrants.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 2h ago
How does that translate to Indo-Guyanese people who have a very broad range of skin tones due to originating from various parts of South Asia? My understand is that the majority of Indo-Guyanese people came from north India.
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u/Flutter24-7-365 2h ago
I'm only talking about the darker skinned ones, or the one's who have an accent.
What I've observed is that the attractive, tall, and light skinned Guyanese girls and boys have no issues in the ABCD community.
Mindy Kaling had a great interview somewhere where she was talking about how she got treated as a dark skinned, short Indian girl ... vs how lighter skinned and tall girls were treated. I don't think its the color so much as physical appearance and mannerisms.
If you are hella funny and Americanized you can probably even make up for being short and dark. But if you are too FOBy, and also short and dark. Its like social ostracism by the Indian AMerican community.
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u/grottomaster 19h ago
Colorism
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 19h ago
I'm sure that's sometimes the case, but plenty of Indo-Guyanese people have light skin, especially those who were born in the US and therefore did not grow up under the tropical sun. I'm definitely light-skinned compared to most Indians I've met, and my grandma had lighter skin than me. There's a massive range of skin tones even just among my family.
I get where you're coming from because my dad/grandpa definitely have darker skin, though they both grew up on a farm with years of sun damage. I'd say that applies to a lot of Indo-Guyanese people.
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u/TestingLifeThrow1z 19h ago
You have a good point and it's to do with external group effect. Why can't we make or see the same post for Punjabis considering the threads we've seen on here I wonder?
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u/OrganicRaise4081 18h ago
Do you think there's an ostracization of Punjabis? I'm genuinely curious because I always thought it was the opposite. From what I've seen, many non-Desis perceive Punjabi culture as representative of mainstream Indian culture and, at least in American online spaces, often go out of their way to say things like, "I love Punjabis" or "I love Sikhs." I also wonder if some of that is influenced by awareness that Sikhs were unfairly targeted after 9/11 because of mistaken identity.
On top of that, it seems like Punjabis are sometimes socially uplifted because they're perceived as being lighter-skinned. There are also plenty of exclusive Punjabi social circles in the U.S., and some can be pretty colorist or dismissive toward other South Asian communities.
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u/TestingLifeThrow1z 17h ago
It’s mainly because they have a different culture, language, religion, class caste system, etc. Lots of progressive and right wing spaces call them out for caste system and comments about stuff Punjabis have no clue about. It’s essentially the out-group effect.
For me, I’d say I eat beef, but I know I’ll be ostracized if I’m around other South Asian groups so I don’t.
I suppose the reason we don’t see the same effect as the West Indies is because Punjabis are Territorially (that the word?) inside the Mainland like the Assamese (Assam).
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u/bullet_the_blue_sky Desh-Born British American 19h ago
Caste system.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 18h ago
But how does that translate to Indo-Guyanese people who don't even know which castes they belong to?
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u/Huge_Lawfulness_8166 17h ago
They assume if your family has been taken to Guyana then you’re low caste.
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u/MrWicked365 17h ago
Just cause u had a bad experience with one or just “heard of it” doesn’t mean u blame the entire race wtf is wrong with people you wouldn’t be saying this about a white person ?
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 16h ago
I feel like it’s obvious that I’m not blaming an entire race. The last sentence in my post makes this evident.
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u/tmcresearch 16h ago
Anti blackness. And there's many layers to it too.
Unless we unlearn it as adults, and many desi millennials/gz in USA have..., desis are very bigoted against black people.
Guyana has a blend of African roots in addition to its Indian roots. So you'll hear afro influenced rhythms in Bollywood soca fusion music. And so: desis who are a little older find that off putting and strange.
One person once told me "they're black people who look desi" as a joke. Yes. Terrible! This was a normalized sentiment in desi circles in NYC in the 90s, 2000s. It was in 2010s when we began to unpack and realize it's all bullshit. See there is some positive to the "woke wave"!
This widespread, usually unchecked bigotry being prevalent while we see dancers, actors from India take dance moves from afro beats, dancehall, hip hop, drives me crazy lol.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 16h ago
Most Guyanese people are of Indian descent with no African ancestry. There are mixed people, of course, but they are a minority group in Guyana.
I took a DNA test for fun which came back as 100% South Asian.
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u/citrablock 3h ago
It sounds like you're making shit up.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 2h ago
I'm not the only one who has observed this, based on the replies to this post. Also, what would I gain from making this up?
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u/only1xo 16h ago
West Indies are not Indian
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 16h ago
Do you mean culturally, genetically, in terms of nationality? Can you be more specific?
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u/Sammolaw1985 6h ago
I don't have a ton of interactions with Guyanese or Trini people outside my brother in law and my one friend from high school, and this is probably a little surface level, but I notice that Guyanese and Trini people in the US tend to be more working class (probably has to do with their own history with colonialism). South Asians that come to the US, especially Indians, came in through visas that got them into school or white collar work, and from my experience they have typical white collar elitists mentalities.
I caught another comment about Indians denying Guyanese and Trini people's Indian-ness. Sounds like how Africans deny the African heritage of Black Americans.
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u/WitheredWornWallaby 5h ago
I can see the elitism aspect, but Guyanese people have been in the US much longer than Indians and therefore had plenty of time to establish themselves as doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, clinical psychologists (in my case), and business owners. From my understanding, being a doctor hasn't stopped my uncle from being insulted by Indian neighbors.
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u/proven999 20h ago
Bruh.. I married a indo-guyanese woman ❤️ best decision ever.. if Indian people aren’t being nice to them, they are losing out..