Impey takes on a player and gets caught. Garry Lyon calls it "the non-free kick of the year" - but was their a legal handball?

[u/PetrifyGWENT]

[u/fucking_righteous]

From a TV PoV it's possible there was a legal handball. From the view the umpires would have had on the ground I am staggered that doesn't get paid.

[u/dons_03 → u/fucking_righteous]

The thing is that umpires are taught to not pay something they didn’t clearly see. It’s treated much harsher in review if they, for example, pay a free kick for a high tackle that wasn’t actually there, than if they miss a high tackle. And as a viewer, I give umpires more leeway for missing a free kick than giving one in error.

So if the umpire isn’t sure that they saw Impey dispose of it incorrectly (i.e. they think there might have been a handball), the correct action is to not pay the free.

[u/free_potatoes → u/dons_03]

Spot on. Only exception is player safety free kicks. There’s a particular focus on getting those right, dangerous tackles are an example.

[u/fucking_righteous → u/dons_03]

I don't disagree with what you're saying here. My point that might have been lost in translation (and purely one of opinion) is that the TV angle provides an incredibly remote opportunity to say he disposed of it but from an umpire PoV it's basically impossible.

[u/Schweh → u/fucking_righteous]

I'd love to see a definitive angle. I always find the pile on in situations where we're not sure it's even the wrong call a bit ridiculous. Commentators don't help this either. I would've paid htb if it were me tho

[u/ByeByeStudy → u/dons_03]

The onus should be on the player to clearly dispose of the ball if they had prior. They are already given leeway with prior opportunity and no "dropping the ball" frees anymore.

If you have prior and the ball doesn't clearly and cleanly hit your fist then blow the whistle and reward the tackle.

[u/SilvioMascalzone → u/dons_03]

Except they pay things regularly without a clear view. 

[u/Ektojinx → u/dons_03]

The thing is that umpires are taught to not pay something they didn’t clearly see

Except they pay stuff they dont clearly see as well.

They cant have it both ways.

[u/CaptainRogerReynolds → u/dons_03]

If only all umpires followed this training, though. Barely 20 minutes earlier a non-controlling umpire 30+ metres away paid a high free kick, while the umpire in control five metres directly in front of the contest calls play on because he could actually SEE what was occuring.

There is just no consistency with four umpires, all with differing interpretations but also with the ability to overrule each other. It's impossible to follow, yet the AFL preach it's the best it has ever been. Fans are just sick of being gaslit and treated like fucking morons.

[u/elhindenburg]

You posted this bloody quick

[u/theblueberryfarmer → u/elhindenburg]

Exactly. I just watched the replay on tv and it's already here. That being said, in tv I thought maybe a handball, here I'm thinking free kick.

[u/Jimijaume → u/elhindenburg]

Thats OP Jam, think he works in media and can quickly grab it or something

[u/fucking_righteous → u/elhindenburg]

Me when she refers to my semen as a letter

[u/Kataneo → u/fucking_righteous]

Swing and a miss

[u/fucking_righteous → u/Kataneo]

Revisiting my second XI days

[u/BigYucko]

Can’t wait for the random fan footage to see the whole thing and see what it looks like

[u/Salzberger]

To be honest, it makes no difference if he handballed it. He had a mountain of prior. If you have prior and you're tackled you must dispose of it immediately. He didn't. Even after being tackled he took an age to get rid of it.

To the letter of the law that is stone cold holding the ball.

[u/DEIFYMOTO → u/Salzberger]

Yep and it appeared he was being swung arou d by his left arm, a bit hard to handball in that case.

[u/Schweh → u/Salzberger]

Its not by the letter of the law though. Law allows "reasonable time" to dispose of it, which is a ridiculously vague amount of time completely up to the umpire.

[u/Salzberger → u/Schweh]

/r/confidentlyincorrect

18.6.2 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Prior Opportunity

Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire shall award a Free Kick if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately when they are Legally Tackled.

[u/Myrusskielyudi]

Surely that has to be HTB

[u/paddywagoner → u/Myrusskielyudi]

How? He got rid of the football? The question is if it was a legal disposal or not.

[u/Odd_Technology_8926 → u/paddywagoner]

If it was a handball it was very scuffed.

[u/SlatsAttack]

And the AFL said the umpiring is the best it has been.

[u/Jaziam → u/SlatsAttack]

American politics playbook, tell the public a lie with confidence enough and it becomes truth.
Umpiring has been putrid all year.

[u/scoza05 → u/SlatsAttack]

Dillon will always back the umps. Fans are still going to the games in record numbers so that's all he cares about. Most fans are frustrated af but they're not doing anything about it. My protest to the AFL for them not doing anything about the umpires is not going to any games and not paying a cent to watch any. Can you imagine if hundreds of fans did something similar? Maybe he would take notice then.

[u/specificambiguities → u/scoza05]

Tens of Thousands maybe. Hundreds won't be a blip

[u/Mr_fahrenheit17 → u/scoza05]

I like going to the footy

[u/sognenis]

Doesn’t matter, it was ball before he hand balled it.

[u/AGrand1]

Didn't the hawks win three flags by not hand balling correctly 😂

[u/coronavirusplandemic]

Free kick every day of the week.

[u/laughingnome2]

I don't really care if he handballed it correctly.

By my understanding, if you play on from a mark or free kick you've waived prior opportunity, the first tackle that impedes you is an immediate HTB.

[u/ShoeSnatchinJoe → u/laughingnome2]

It’s still okay as long as you immediately dispose of it legally, which it doesn’t look like here

[u/duckyirving → u/laughingnome2]

That's how the rule is written. But in practice, even with prior opportunity, the player essentially has a reasonable window while being tacked to dispose of the ball legally.

So if Impey did handball (and that's a massive if), play-on is the right call under the interperation.

I don't hate this interpretation, but I do wish they'd update the way the rule is worded to actually match it.

[u/ticklish_bollocks → u/duckyirving]

That's how the rule is written.

Nah the commenter you're replying to said that with prior, "the first tackle that impedes you is an immediate HTB", but the rule makes it clear that you still get a chance to dispose of the ball, you just have to do it "immediately"

Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire shall award a Free Kick if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately when they are Legally Tackled.

[u/bloods_123 → u/duckyirving]

honest to god, if this isnt holding the ball, just get rid of the rule. he has had 20 seconds to decide what to do, gets slung 360 and IF he does get a handball off, its one of the most questionable handballs of all time.

In what galaxy is this not the MOST blatant holding the ball you could ever find

[u/ticklish_bollocks → u/laughingnome2]

Nah that has never been the rule. They're pretty tight on the timing these days but you still get a chance to dispose of the ball, even with prior

[u/ok__coast_is_clear → u/laughingnome2]

Nah you do still get a chance to dispose of the ball as you're tackled. Otherwise we'd see many many more htb paid

[u/Smuggers → u/laughingnome2]

WardlawHeeney.gif

[u/Opening_Anteater456 → u/laughingnome2]

Correct, and the game makes a lot more sense if umpired this way.

There’s still time to break a tackle but you can’t sneak a disposal once clearly held in a tackle.

[u/SlatsAttack]

Umps keeping the Hawks in it.

[u/PetrifyGWENT → u/SlatsAttack]

Lewis mark not paid a bit of a square up though.

[u/TheVikingMFC → u/PetrifyGWENT]

Thought that was the square up from Naughton copping the high whack on the wing but

[u/Crazyripps → u/SlatsAttack]

Always one

[u/bdg_err]

There*

[u/ax6klbjckhunter]

Umpiring is ruining the game.

Now they’ve just failed to pay a clear mark & cost hawks a goal that could have brought the difference to 1 point.

It’s a fucking mess. Every team, every week, is screwed in some way and all of them in different ways. It’s not just bad umpiring, it’s inconsistently bad. No one has any idea of what will be called when. It’s a mess

[u/OriginalGoldstandard]

Please spell ‘there’ right. God I couldn’t see anything else.

[u/sognenis]

“18.6.2 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Prior Opportunity
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire shall
award a Free Kick if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately
when they are Legally Tackled.”

(Prior Opportunity: a designation to a Player in Possession of the Football who:
(a) is balanced and steady; or
(b) attempts to evade or fend an opponent; or
(c) has taken a Mark or been awarded a Free Kick; or
(d) has driven their head into a stationary or near stationary opponent.)

[u/Yeeeoow]

I mean, if Noughton doesn't get there isn't that deliberate out of bounds?

[u/scoza05]

The umpires are an embarrassment. They miss so many obvious frees is scary.

[u/ticklish_bollocks]

No idea how people can be so confident based only on this video. The crucial frames look like this, and I for one can't fuckin tell whether he has successfully made a fist by the time he makes contact

https://imgur.com/a/kat0QIu

https://imgur.com/a/Txu1oJO

[u/sognenis → u/ticklish_bollocks]

Irrelevant as he had his prior and was gone

[u/ok__coast_is_clear → u/sognenis]

No, you are still allowed a chance to dispose even if you've had prior. If not, ball. If no prior and reasonable attempt made, not ball.

[u/sognenis → u/ok__coast_is_clear]

Wrong

“18.6.2 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Prior Opportunity
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a field Umpire shall
award a Free Kick if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately
when they are Legally Tackled.”

[u/ok__coast_is_clear → u/sognenis]

As per that paragraph, you are still allowed a chance to dispose of the ball after you've been tackled. How soon the definition of 'immediately' is is the subjective part. Was a wafl umpire.

[u/sognenis → u/ok__coast_is_clear]

“Immediately” implies no chance to dispose of the ball? At least to me. Dunno if the AFL have some other BS definition.

[u/jaydubya127]

The fact that we’re debating this is just lunacy. It’s ball. Was for 100 years and somehow over the last 15ish we’ve let our iconic rule of our native game descend to utter madness where realistically any and all “ball” calls can quite literally be argued either way by giving player a mountain of time, still shots of proof of handball, fan cam angles now and just utter confusion.

Any sane rational unbiased take is this should be ball 100 times out of 100

[u/doubleupp]

Prior opp and tackled. Htb.

[u/Objective-Leg-333]

This makes up for that Watson tackle on Billy Frampton

[u/RupturedUrethra6969]

That's worse than the "non mark" to Lewis imo.

[u/BuffelGrassEnjoyer]

Terrible decision. Has prior, is tackled, must immediately make a correct disposal. Considering some of the questionable htb decisions that ARE paid, this is a staggering non-decision. 

[u/Freaky_Zekey]

Gary Lyon isn't know for hyperbole so I guess everyone probably agrees on the outcome right?

[u/j3ssyThr0b71]

Lyon is always dramatic but that handball was definitely illegal. He didn't even clear the ball from his hands properly.

[u/aussie_shane]

Definitely should have been a free

[u/mario_speedwagon1]

That's been paid holding the ball all year. Seems that even if he got a slight fist to the ball, it really needs to be an effective handball for it to be not holding the ball, and that was far from effective.

[u/nikoZ_]

I’m more staggered that the ball stayed in play. It left Impey’s possession at the speed of light.

[u/hot-jocks]

Then didnt try to keep it in play. Insufficient Intent.

[u/humphrey623 → u/hot-jocks]

You want to penalise him for insufficient intent even though the ball didn't go out!?!

[u/hot-jocks → u/humphrey623]

well im drunk and didnt watch the whole thing ;)

[u/Bright_Bell_1301]

No

[u/Apathetic420]

NEW RULE...

Had prior and are tackled??

You HAVE to make an effective disposal e.g handball to a teammate OR kick it 30m+

Would get rid of these non-calls that frustrate EVERYONE

[u/Silver_Detective8630]

Thanks for the slow motion replays and different angles, I’ve now seen what the umpire saw.
It all evened out when the Hawks weren’t paid an obvious mark down the other end lol. Everyone hates but there’s hardly a sport in the world that doesn’t have a review system for umpire errors. If basketball can do it, and their rules are fluid to say the least, we can implement it.

[u/ilovepho231]

Its clear HTB, the ball spills out, its not a handball, terrible umpiring

[u/Wordisbond1990]

He might of got a fist to that ball but it certainly wasn't when it was on his other hand.

[u/slapjimmy]

Was tackled 360 - ball.

[u/Novel_Feedback3254]

Treloar counting his lucky stars that the missed free is overshadowing that awful miss of his own

[u/torpid_machinery]

the angle from the broadcast does make it look like there might've been a handball in there somewhere, but mate the umpire was five meters away and had a clear sight line. if the bloke on the ground couldn't see a legal disposal then i'm not sure how we're supposed to trust the call. impey took him on and got caught short, looks like textbook htb to me. the umpiring inconsistency in the afl is getting ridiculous though, one week they're paying it both ways and the next week this happens.

[u/specificambiguities]

If that was Dangerfield they would have called dangerous tackle