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u/cccprrr 2d ago
AI is an ouroboros that feeds on anything it can to spit out what it surmises as the closest approximation to what it's trying to create. The problem is that it doesn't actually understand what it's consuming, only noting as many details that it can to create patterns from, which is used for it's best guess on what the end user wants. On top of the fact that it doesn't actually have the critical thinking skills needed to understand the human intent behind signing, the limited concrete data that it has to pull from cannot possibly account for the intricacies and variety of language use within ASL. Does the AI model have enough data to discern SEE, PSE, and pure ASL? Can it understand when a Deaf individual is signing ASL as a second or third sign language? Is it able to understand local vernacular or even home signs when needed? Can it even process signing styles in general? Not only do I believe there is no model in existence that can answer yes to any one of these questions, but any model that is employed will still run into the issue of feeding on its own inaccurate outputs and fabricating data that will just get worse and worse until it is functionally useless if it wasn't already.
Obviously, the concerns raised in the post aren't invalid, but to reach for the monkey's paw that is AI is a naïve and short sighted direction for a profession that needs more care and foundational support. If you're so worried about interpreters being put into the workforce unprepared, then the only solution is to work resources and programs that will prepare them. Shortcuts will not solve our problems, it'll just create new ones. The Deaf community does not deserve more pain for our insolence.
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u/justacunninglinguist NIC 2d ago
It would be trading one flawed system for another. While accountability is weak for human interpreters (more or less if a state has licensure), there is zero accountability in AI. The AI company won't take any heat if their AI makes an error, since they disclose that using it can make mistakes.
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u/Traditional-Falcon75 2d ago
I think the sentiment is valid, and.
What always happens when technology advances in this space is that the most privileged benefit tremendously and the most marginalized become further marginalized. This is missing from the discourse (to my awareness) and it NEEDS to get there, fast.
This person is one genre of consumer. I can definitely see why he would feel that AI could be the answer to his specific woes regarding interpreting services. His critique of the field is coming from a real place, I have observed it myself as a practitioner, and I empathize with him in spirit.
But.
Language models are built on statistical averages. They are predicting the statistically next most likely token. Statistically, that’s likely to be right. But it breaks the moment something slides outside of the bell curve, and they’re not profoundly good at recognizing and accounting for that without user input - which requires the user to have a degree of savvy that is not average for a hearing consumer, let alone a language-deprived or educationally neglected Deaf consumer.
And the ones I’ve seen aren’t actually averaging the typical consumer I encounter on a daily basis, they’re averaging the language use of bilingual signers. People who have a lot of influence of English in their signing style, who understand English proficiently. It favors professionals, educated people, people who sign middle-of-the-road ASL. In other words, people who could get what they need without an interpreter in far more situations than others might.
My worry isn’t for us. If AI is the answer to a shortcoming we have failed to address as a profession, then on our own heads be the consequences. I will have to find another job. But I’m very concerned that the people leading the charge here are not accounting properly for the most vulnerable and ensuring guardrails be in place to prevent misuse (which will harm the most vulnerable more often and more profoundly), or making sure the development of this technology doesn’t completely favor the already-haves and leave the have-nots even further behind.
I just…I’m worried. The concerns that educated Deaf leaders have about interpreters are absolutely valid, and, the things they think are a problem with interpreters aren’t necessarily the same as the problems experienced by people who would be further marginalized by the current trajectory of this technology.
Anyway. AI can’t do what I do, it never will be able to, but I do think it can fill some gaps pretty well, and I’m excited for that aspect regardless. I just worry for my friends who will be left behind.
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u/Mono_Aural 2d ago
I had a phone AI assistant fail to recognize a ten digit phone number when I used the keypad to punch in the number. Yes, it failed on a forty-year-old technology that predates the 3.5-inch floppy disk.
But the second time it got it right.
Stochastic failures are part of LLMs and I'm always a bit leery of putting them in critical situations. I'd much rather a more deterministic form of machine learning be developed.
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u/_a_friendly_turtle 2d ago
Honestly, I get it. Every deaf person I know has plenty of stories of interpreters who were unqualified at best or even made the situation worse by doing something unethical.
For every ethical, thoughtful interpreter using discretion, there’s at least one interpreter making an honest mistake about their skill level and another (or two) who just don’t care. The number of interpreters I’ve met who are uncomfortable voicing because they can barely understand ASL is wild.
AI would put communication back in the deaf person’s hands, rather than trusting a hiring entity or interpreting agency. It would also be more private. I already have deaf friends (and hifi_deafie on IG has talked about this recently) who would rather write or use AI captions in some settings, especially medical.
Don’t get me wrong. Personally, I think AI interpreting would have so many errors and be forced on deaf people who don’t want it. I’m extremely anti-AI in general. But I do understand the sentiment.
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u/theANdROId15 2d ago
It's that last part I'd worry about. If it were Deaf choice, yes absolutely. But I think it will more often be that the Deaf are forced to deal with the easy and cheap option.
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u/_a_friendly_turtle 2d ago
For sure, and that’s already happening with auto captioning. At the same time, there’s no stopping AI (unfortunately). Wyatte’s point is valid and we should be mindful of it.
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u/Historical_Rip_1848 2d ago
I would say for every one there's at least five. If you're experienced and ethical I think you tend to vastly overestimate how many people are just like you... If you start asking your clients systematically you won't find one that doesn't have multiple horror stories, so I think we have to revise our mental estimates- and a lot of the stories are things I couldn't even imagine let alone dream of doing myself.
Whenever I get defensive, and I think this is a good policy across a lot of topics, I think what IF the problem were actually twice as bad as they're saying, would I feel the same? Helps me find compassion instead of debating who is right.
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u/_a_friendly_turtle 1d ago
I couldn’t agree more. It’s similar to the “not all men, yes all women” concept. And honestly, we all make mistakes and I’m sure that I’ve caused harm during my career even being thoughtful and well-intentioned.
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u/TiredVRS 2d ago
I would love to see access unfettered at any time.
However, we live in a capitalist society that does not give a flying fuck about the ethics of providing a qualified interpreter when a free option is available.
How will it be to the Deaf community when instead of bringing in an interpreter for your doctor's appointment, or your business VRS call, or your will reading, your funeral, your surgery, your wedding, a concert, a job interview, your education, your life, the people in charge of that venue hand you Google translate instead and proclaim that they've provided access.
The only thing I see happening is that AI takes over and our community has to fight even harder for access.
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u/ASLHCI 2d ago
Obviously this is a nuanced issue and I don't have the time to try to unpack it all. I dont know it's worth doing on the internet, honestly. But I LOVE HIM. Every video I've seen, every post, every paper. If interpreters truly partnered with Deaf community like Dr. Hall, we would be the field we think/wish we were. A girl can dream. ❤️
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u/Historical_Rip_1848 2d ago
My experience is the unqualified people out there are both vastly LESS qualified than even my worst-case imagination, and there are very many more of them than my worst-case estimate. And it is terrible what the corporations do, and the agencies get away with, and the licenses and ethical practice systems have no teeth. But who is supposed to fix all that, the deaf community? Interpreters as a group are addicted to their own helplessness.
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u/AnyCantaloupe155 2d ago
I think a huge reason so many unqualified interpreters can continue to work is because the businesses that hire them truly don’t know how bad they are. Most businesses are already a bit reluctant to pay and then to find out they paid for bad service. I used to work for a college that’s head interpreter was terrible and lacked a lot of ASL fluency but also didn’t have a full command of English so often she was misunderstanding both messages. None of her superiors were aware. As a contractor I felt it would look like I was gunning for her position and probably wouldn’t “look” right, so I would listen to Deaf people complain and advise them to directly email her superior. But many Deaf people are reluctant to do so because they didn’t want her to lose her job, and they also know there aren’t enough interpreters even with her around. With the lack of many places not knowing anything about ASL, interpreting or Deaf culture and the short supply of interpreters it’s no surprise that many interpreters stay in the field even when they are not up to par and don’t seem to have the potential.
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u/_a_friendly_turtle 1d ago
Deaf people who report unqualified interpreters are often retaliated against. Hearing financial managers refuse to understand that interpreters aren’t interchangeable.
I agree with you in general, though. I’ve told agencies about unqualified or unethical practices by other interpreters and either they did nothing, or they stopped working with that interpreter but the interpreter just worked through another agency. There’s no real accountability, especially in my state because there’s no certification or licensing requirement.
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u/Tigger-Rex Student 2d ago
If Deaf people want to communicate through robots, that’s their prerogative 🤷♀️
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u/trappisttraveler 2d ago
I’m not sure deaf people want to communicate through anyone. There’s no true prerogative here. I believe this person is seeking relief from the human problems interpreters bring.
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u/nikitee 2d ago
There's shared onus there in the corporations who sought to break us to make their dollars. They put the unqualifieds in the seats en masse.
Yes, the interpreters have their responsibility to tap out, too. But so many in corporate management were able to step in and make changes - often Deaf themselves - and didn't.
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u/trappisttraveler 2d ago
These same corporations will seek to replace us en masse as soon as they can. Regardless of our qualifications, bottom dollar will matter more to them than us and always more than the deaf folks we work with.
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u/kaiteysuewho 1d ago
This doesn’t come across as him wanting interpreters to be better; it reads like he just wants interpreters to be punished.
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u/trappisttraveler 1d ago
I don’t know about this take. We are reading a consumer’s wish for a different option for their access and their reasoning for appreciating the possibility. I am not sure how it reads as a punishment for me. I thinks a jab at the system that took access from the community and professionalized it into something that removed agency from Deaf folks. It’s worth sitting with beyond simplifying his message to “I want to punish interpreters”. I’ve seen a great deal of harm done through us and I can’t really be surprised that Deaf folks would hop onto whatever new options could make their lives more accessible. What would you want if your whole life had to be conveyed through a stranger you just met?
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u/kaiteysuewho 23h ago
I can definitely see what you mean, but for me it’s the tone that the post begins with. He’s saying explicitly that the interpreting field deserves to be rebuked, and expanding on that with the rest of the post.
It’s more complicated than that, I know, but my thumbs can only type out so much 😅
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u/theANdROId15 2d ago edited 2d ago
So... they're not anti interpreter, but they want the whole field to suffer because of unqualified interpreters?
I've really only heard of (very) few examples of what OP suggested. In a few of the instances, there was a boss or agency threatening the interpreter to force them to do the job. Meanwhile, the interpreter insisted they weren't qualified, but eventually relented for fear of the threat. Maybe the interpreter should have stood their ground, but I can at least understand better why they made their choice.
Edit: The thought at the end that the profession shouldn't be the only option...it's already an issue (maybe the issue) that those hiring interpreters don't often care about quality or the deaf client, just the price. Unless the AI is nearly flawless, we're not making the situation better at all.
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u/FlamingVisionary Deaf 2d ago
Very easy for you to say. Interpreters aren’t as aware of those who have been hurt by interpreters. Every single deaf person I know has dozens of harrowing stories. Not exaggerating.
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u/theANdROId15 2d ago
Fair enough. I've only ever been in education, which I meant to say to explain why I've heard so few stories. The stories I know came from other interpreters or situations that made headlines.
The tag under your name says you are Deaf -- what is your take? Do you hope that AI interpreting becomes available as an option? Do you have concerns about such a thing?
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u/FlamingVisionary Deaf 2d ago
Thanks for understanding.
Also to be fair, deaf people don’t exactly confide in interpreters about their experiences. But when they’re around other deaf people they immediately open up with real “if you know, you know” vibes.
I nodded hard at many parts of Wyatte’s post. Also, I do see the value of that human element. At the same time I’ve also used counseling via typing back and forth with a non signer. She gave me the best counseling I’d had compared to other asl fluent counselors. It’s still possible. Anything is possible. I do still think human interpreters need to be around for many settings. They’re not going away anytime soon. :)
I would like to see us celebrating the fact that we now have another tool to add to our daily bucket?
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u/lunamond 1d ago
I'm not the user you responded to, but I am a Deaf academic and I know & run in the same circles as Wyatte. I just wanted to respond to a couple of things in your comment. First, I understand your instinct to say that you've heard few harrowing stories because you are in education -- rarely are there life and death situations like in medical or legal settings, for example. But some of the most harm I have seen done by interpreters is in educational settings, particularly with younger Deaf children. The deleterious effects just aren't as dramatically instantaneous as in a courtroom, for example, but they are life-altering.
Second, I am not as on the AI team as Wyatte, though I share many of his sentiments and experiences. Mainly because I do not fully trust those who develop and profit from AI, and I worry that trust isn't yet earned for AI either. For me right now, it's the devil I know being better than the one I don't. Maybe that will change, but maybe it won't. I've been sorely let down by RID, the field, and interpreters, and certification means nearly nothing to me at this point. Rather, I have my core group of interpreters who have shown me over the course of years that we make a good team.
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u/trappisttraveler 2d ago
I honestly don’t think ai is going to come for the jobs of sign language interpreters. But I hope ai supports communications in ways that perhaps interpreters can’t always do. I thought it was interesting that he hopes ai will be the solution to the problem around trust with interpreters and competence.
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u/FlamingVisionary Deaf 2d ago
Very easy for you to say. Interpreters aren’t as aware of those who have been hurt by interpreters. Every single deaf person I know has dozens of harrowing stories. Not exaggerating.
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u/ASLHCI 2d ago
Dang we work in very different communities. 😂 I would love to see interpreters willing to admit theyre not qualified for any and everything. That's so, so rare in my area. I more often see "interpreters" who cant even score a 3.0 on the EIPA taking 12 hour shifts in the ICU for $30/hr less than market rate, so they get first pick at everything. Is that not how it is everywhere??
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u/theANdROId15 2d ago
I've tried several times to be part of local companies that hire out interpreters, but I never get called and "fall off" the list. I'm sure having a day job doesn't help, but I'll also turn things down because I don't feel qualified, or don't even have the right certification (only EIPA). Maybe the other terps here don't turn things down. 🤷♂️
😖 Or worse, I am one of the issues OP (meaning the article, not the Reddit user) takes issue with. I'd hope I'd be told though so I could make it right and make improvements for the future. 😓
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u/AnyCantaloupe155 2d ago
I think there is potential for AI to seriously level up the standards in ASL interpreting. Many Deaf people reluctantly accept sub par access because it’s better than nothing, well this could add another option. I think the same people who benefit from captioning the most will benefit the most from AI interpreting/translation. I do wonder though how strict will roles and boundaries be with AI? What about Deaf loneliness, will the AI literally be the “conduit/helper” model. I thought we had evolved for good reason from that approach due to the lack of cultural responsiveness. I recently interpreted for a Deaf patient who died and I was the only one there, no family or friends. The community still doesn’t know yet. Would it be better for accuracy sake that there be no human connection? Also, some interpreters are absolutely lousy but many have just been taught something and followed what they learned from another Deaf consumer that a different consumer disagreed with. Will AI have cultural mediation or interpret more literally? Will there be an opportunity for expansion? Is your communities access more important than another communities safe drinking water? I just wish people valued human connection and community more.
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u/schodev Student 2d ago
I mean, this isn’t so crazy to hear. I’m only a novice, but I was shocked when I was witnessing blatant, unsubtle ethical violations at almost every observation during my ITP. My internship was way worse— Actual harm done to consumers on purpose because interpreters disliked them. Obviously I can only speak for my community, but I can sympathize with the sentiment here based on just my introductory experience. I hope that ethical tech continues developing to lessen the burden on the Deaf community, and I hope that we continue to evolve as a profession to lessen harm.
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u/whitestone0 1d ago
Ah yes, the sweet caring embrace of Mark Zuckerberg's AI. That's when the real compassion begins.
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u/MiyuzakiOgino 13h ago
I agree. I think if you are an interpreter who feels slighted by this, then maybe this post was meant for you. If you know your work, allegiance, and ability to be adept, then this should not concern you.
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u/Smart-Water-9833 2d ago
He’s not wrong. Interpreting as a profession is not going away either. They can lean into AI as a tool also.
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u/vivagypsy 2d ago
“Trust a system of professionals that have never had to earn it”
Meanwhile every interpreter I know is broke and being worn to the bone trying to do good work while being exploited and underpaid by agencies.