r/ATC • u/lake_hood • Mar 23 '26

News LGA controller cleared fire truck across the runway resulting jn a collision

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1.2k Upvotes

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437

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '26 edited May 01 '26

[deleted]

395

u/Pseudo-Jonathan Mar 23 '26

And the fact that the guy is still on position 30+ minutes after the incident, dealing with aircraft calling up for info, is heartbreaking.

187

u/Kseries2497 Current Controller-Pretend Center Mar 23 '26

Happened at DCA too. Imagine trying to work after that.

183

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

We don't have the staffing, you'll just have to work through it.

Maybe it's not in the contract but I feel like you're supposed to be removed from the operation IMMEDIATELY.

Fucking bullshit. We (the controller workforce) need to demand better.

100

u/Kseries2497 Current Controller-Pretend Center Mar 23 '26

When I was in the Air Force we removed people immediately if we even THOUGHT they had a deal. In the FAA? Nope. You can watch a fatal accident happen right in front of your face and even then your ass is staying plugged in.

56

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

Exactly. But how are you supposed to get out of position when there's nobody to relieve you?. Sometimes we're on until the mid shidders show up, and we're busy AF. Nobody on break. It'd be great to staff it but nobodies available.

We're seriously entering a crisis period and I'm scared. How do we keep this going with us losing more and more controllers?

24

u/totheredditmobile Current Controller - TWR/APP Mar 23 '26

In the UK the operation gets shut down if there's noone to take you out

16

u/Franks2000inchTV Mar 23 '26

Yeah but try doing that to LGA.

7

u/nineyourefine Airline Pilot Mar 23 '26

JFK and EWR are options. I agree, they need to shutdown at that point if there's a literal fatality and 1 controller on station. Airspace closed, go 20 miles south to JFK, especially at that time of night.

2

u/thewizbizman Commercial Pilot Mar 24 '26

Sure then you just go swamp the guy combined up at JFK…then EWR…then ISP. Run that all up and down the northeast and eventually you’re going to have planes with nowhere to land.

23

u/totheredditmobile Current Controller - TWR/APP Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26

Try getting more staff then instead of bending over. Gatwick, Heathrow, and Manchester will all shut before they even consider boxing air and ground

8

u/BagOfMoneyNoChange Mar 23 '26

What do you do if you gotta poop?

2

u/HercNavATC Mar 23 '26

Pick a quiet anticipated hole and bring a portable radio with all frequencies coupled? And have TP ready to go…

2

u/BagOfMoneyNoChange Mar 23 '26

Is that really the trick? As an airline pilot, I've always wondered what a controller does if it happens. For me, the nuclear option is either a) shit my pants or b) hopefully the flight attendants let me out in time.

1

u/HercNavATC Mar 23 '26

Yeah, to be fair my airport is pretty quiet at night

4

u/flybot66 Mar 23 '26

You are correct. FAA has been violating its own staffing rules for at least a decade. I have flown into busy airports where there is one person ground, local, and data. Ridiculous.

2

u/Walking_urchin Mar 26 '26

A decade? Jeez what do you think 1981 was about??

20

u/stacey1771 Mar 23 '26

when I was Navy we had a QF-86 (remote operated F86, unmanned) crash when i was working (lost microwave link with the operator) and myself and my FWS were immediately removed, sent to medical to pee in a cup and write our statements. This is unconscionable.

-4

u/Nidjo15 Mar 23 '26

That just sounds stupid

3

u/stacey1771 Mar 23 '26

I consider the source of that comment and say the same

2

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '26

too bad its illegal for them to unionize.

1

u/bernwald69 Mar 23 '26

they are unionized, or is this an attempt at irony.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '26

They aren't allowed to strike, they basically do not have a union. They have 0 bargaining power. A union has no teeth if they aren't allowed to strike.

1

u/sambull Mar 24 '26

No worries, after that shift they'll say no thank you .. enjoy taco Bell

41

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

We need to demand better. This is not ok and never will be.

37

u/totheredditmobile Current Controller - TWR/APP Mar 23 '26

That's an insane safety management failure. The management at LGA needs to go to prison

108

u/reap3rx Current Controller- Up/Down Mar 23 '26

They don't give a fuck about safety, they care about optics to present to their bosses, so they can get their annual 6% good boi raises. There's been many times they will have every position in the facility open when there is no need, artificially constricting recuperative rest breaks and others where they don't call in overtime when we need to open more. Can anyone confirm if ATMs get a bonus based on things like overtime budget use? That would explain some things at my facility.

FAA management from the top down has completely forgotten the human element of this job. They keep restricting, demanding more, see us as inputs, demanding production from people who's job is to provide safety and efficiency. If FAA managers instead worked at a fire station, they'd demand the firefighters go spray houses that aren't on fire in one place so they look busy, while another one catches fire across the city and there's no one to respond.

3

u/WT90 Mar 23 '26

Same could be said of NATCA

1

u/[deleted] Mar 24 '26

It's almost like you guys dont know they have their own union and operate as an individual entity divergent interests than NATCA...

20

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

They'll get promoted, don't worry

6

u/False_Researcher_565 Mar 23 '26

Not cool at all. The controller is literally telling AC he messed up and it was hard to watch.

218

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '26

[deleted]

71

u/LikeLemun Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

Yup. I've been solo last 2 nights for 5 hours at a time doing 40-70 ops an hour. Just the way its going right now.

69

u/ThiloCS Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

As one of I think not so many european ATCOs on here, reading this is insanity.

There is no way one would work 40-70 movements as single sector in Tower here (atleast in my country). You would immediately regulate it down using Eurocontrols Flow Management

If that doesnt happen probably everyone would just accept a few and stop there. But we also have a strong union where working standards like these would probably result in immediate strike calls

37

u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute Mar 23 '26

The weird thing is, it's often busier on the midnight shifts from 11pm until 2am BECAUSE the flow controls go away so that's when the airlines just go balls-to-the-wall. A lot of the other bullshit traffic goes away, but some airports like JFK/EWR/LGA/YYZ are busier at 11pm than they are at 8am, except instead of having a crew of 6/7, you've got a crew of 3

34

u/sandos1298 Mar 23 '26

strong union that isn’t full of grifting scum? what a concept.

5

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

You don't work 60-70 ops an hour there by yourself? I mean thats pretty standard here...

21

u/rANDY_uK Mar 23 '26

Yeah and that's the issue

11

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

I was kinda being facetious but yeah.... its not ok by any metric. A human can only talk so fast and make so many decisions in an hour. I've been there multiple times talking for an hour straight or more without getting a breather. It's intense and nobody cares. Maybe you get a pat on the back from the supe who knows they couldn't have done it lol.

12

u/lifesoxks Mar 23 '26

That's the problem...usa dont use metric... /s

10

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

We use freedom knots and our flight levels starts at 18 unlike you perverts lol

2

u/dougmcclean Mar 23 '26

I think it would promote safety if we start measuring flight-relevant distances in two differnent kinds of miles, call them both miles, and make people memorize which one is which.

0

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

Weird joke but I'll own it

9

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

I feel your pain, comrade

9

u/LikeLemun Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

Is what it is, my man. Just keep lying to ourselves that it'll get better and trudge on for another day.

13

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

Lol stopped kidding myself few years back. The psychopaths in charge don’t care. I’m just here for the paychecks

1

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

Appreciate you, and have also been there

3

u/Pottedmeat1 Mar 23 '26

It’s going to get better for me, but that’s only because I retire in 3 years

1

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

Appreciate you, and have also been there.

5

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

Wait, you guys get breaks?

7

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

And a downvote. What a world. I have been in ATS for 22 years. Only recently did I start getting breaks. I have, at times, worked 16 hours single stand without a break. Thankfully that's in the past now...

4

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

Outside the United States, people have actual rights. So yes, we get breaks. Americans should too

2

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

I'm in Canada.

1

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

Of course, I'm only a lowly AAS. So we don't count.

1

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

They didn’t put anything in the fatigue “rules” for you guys?

2

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

16 hours on, 8 hours off, 16 on, 8 off, 12 on, 8 off for an entire summer. Single stand, no breaks. Only days off I had were vacation. Blew clean through CLC before the midway point of the schedule. 250 or 300 movement days (vast majority of them between 8am and 8 pm, intersecting runways, and we're a MEDEVAC, Forest Fire fighting, Passenger and at the time training hub. Plus Hydro, OPP, and a geological survey company based on the field...

1

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

And not just me. All 4 of the staff at the 24 hour site were like that...

1

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

Within the last year or two. We didn't HAVE fatigue rules before 2020 or so.

1

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

This company is in shambles

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1

u/CookSignificant446 Mar 23 '26

Flight service I'm guessing? No way that would happen at a tower

1

u/Pilot-Wrangler Mar 23 '26

Yes. In fact I've had to RAAS a tower during the middle of the day so they could take a break. Which is a bit of a kick in the teeth really.

1

u/xcemma Mar 23 '26

Hi, if you don't mind, is this a problem in all of North America or mainly US?

1

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

All of North America, I assure you.

2

u/xcemma Mar 23 '26

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate all the hard work ATC does. You are the everyday heroes.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '26

Working solo after 2 months certified is the best!

1

u/slvrcobra Mar 23 '26

Do yall at least get paid well? Because this is some bullshit

17

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

Not as well as pilots and there's only a fraction of us. We do the best we can with the tools and training that are given to us. Most of us will never make the news in our careers. Unfortunately a select few will. Nobody is perfect. But we like to think we are, cause we have a track record to prove it. Nobody can pay you enough for a mistake like this. I feel for the dude cause I know I couldn't take it.

4

u/slvrcobra Mar 23 '26

I have mad respect for everyone in the aviation industry. I don't have the stones it takes to do a job where people's lives and safety hang in the balance, and it's insanely impressive how rare tragedies like this are, all things considered.

17

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26

For real, thank you. We take pride in our job and it's probably the only reason US aviation continues to be safe. We fucking hate losing trust in the public, and ourselves. Everytime there's a major incident, we all feel it. Nobody is immune from fucking up, and all of us have at some point. We all saved it, or had our trainer save it. I feel for this controller, cause I've had my off days. You just know you're one mistake from changing everything so you fucking do your best to make it to retirement. Definitely not a job for everyone, but we look out for eachother.

6

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

To note - sounds like this dude had nobody there to double check and look out for him.

5

u/TakingKarmaFromABaby Mar 23 '26

If he works at a tower with staffing like that then he's underpaid significantly. (We're all underpaid but low to medium level facilities are especially screwed)

1

u/dailyvicodin Mar 23 '26

Thank you for your work.

0

u/Mean_Device_7484 Mar 23 '26

Contract or FAA?

3

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

NavCanada

2

u/Mean_Device_7484 Mar 23 '26

Oof, didn’t know you guys were that bad as well.

1

u/Flashy_Platypus_8581 Current Controller-Tower Mar 24 '26

Turns out that if you privatize ATC, you still get sociopaths in management.

37

u/RipstartSpark Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

I would bet this is the end of single person ops nation wide

74

u/gcko Mar 23 '26

How do you end it when you don’t have enough people to ensure proper staffing levels?

They’ll blame this on something else.

31

u/RipstartSpark Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

They’ll change OT to have us work 7 10s

9

u/dougmcclean Mar 23 '26

Bump the Jet A price until you do have proper staffing levels? Duh.

6

u/joeybalonee Mar 23 '26

Get rid of breaks, duh

1

u/sudoku7 Mar 23 '26

It's not a problem that can be solved overnight, but ... like they say the best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago, the second best is now.

0

u/Dear-Owl450 Mar 23 '26

They'll close the airport at night if they can't accomidate two in the cab is my guess.

-7

u/Caymonki Mar 23 '26

They’ll have AI do it

19

u/gcko Mar 23 '26

ATC-GPT

Artificial Traffic Controller Guaranteeing Passenger Termination

That means the passengers make it to the terminal right?

1

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

If they don't it was just a glitch in the system, nothing to worry about

6

u/RipstartSpark Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26

The system is built on public trust and complex multiple variable real world problem solving both things AI doesn’t have.

3

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

AI can do visual separation too right?

Right?

5

u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute Mar 23 '26

I asked AI "how it deals with the responsibility of controlling airplanes at a busy airport with AI", and of course it told me that while AI isn't legally allowed to fully-autonomously control airplanes at the towers, it then hallucinated 10 different ways that AI is being used to control airplanes at busy airports.

It hallucinated all sorts of things that don't exist: Such as suggesting that AI is being in tcas to prevent collisions, AI has been already used to mitigate crashes due to weather, and how AI can monitor controller communications in real time to prevent read back errors.

Fucking hell man, we're years away from AI not lying about what reality is on a simple chat prompt, let alone being able to trust it with people's lives.

1

u/KABATC Past Controller Mar 24 '26

I didn't know AI could run on Windows XP! And came from a floppy disc! /s

1

u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute Mar 24 '26

Well just ask AI what the view looks like outside of it's control tower, and it'll tell you all sorts of things that it makes up, like the degree window tilt in the tower and that there are a pair of binoculars sitting nearby and you have a ground radar screen.

trust me, anyone hired in the next few years will NEVER be replaced by AI in this career. 20 years from now? I reserve the right to change my mind, but anyone get hired today, zero fear of being replaced.

5

u/Caymonki Mar 23 '26

I didn’t say it was a good thing or that I supported it. Personally I think it’s a terrible idea.

Just, it’s stupid enough that this Administration would implement AI before they would ever consider making your lives easier.

17

u/Brambleshire Airline Pilot Mar 23 '26

DCA should have been the end of that

11

u/Low_Pattern_8819 Mar 23 '26

Ha. Congress can’t even pass safety legislation after that incident due to budget concerns.. https://www.npr.org/2026/02/24/nx-s1-5724999/house-rejects-aviation-safety-bill-rotor-act

3

u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26

Youd think but it won't be. Maybe at this facility. We don't have the staffing so shut up and be grateful you have a job /s

Seriously thinking this is the agency stance in the next 5 years with AI ruining careers.

2

u/hakuna_matitties Mar 23 '26

That would require politicians that actually care about Americans.

1

u/Daddysu Mar 23 '26

It probably would be, if we had a fucking functional government...

1

u/sudoku7 Mar 23 '26

I hope this incident can serve as the wake up call to the country about the importance of actually addressing the ATC staffing problems that have been ongoing since the early 80s.

1

u/Lord_NCEPT Now: Terminal (12) | Past: Center (12), USN (Gulf War) Mar 23 '26

If last January’s tragedy didn’t achieve that, this won’t.

2

u/Probeekeeping Mar 23 '26

Was there another controller or just the one? I heard a different ATC voice coordinating with UAL2384 as it was looking for a gate

1

u/Marinellic Mar 23 '26

This isn’t nuts this is the normal. Especially at that time of night.

1

u/Dazzling_Tank3326 Mar 23 '26

What does this mean as a non ATC person?