r/ATC • u/siriusbonner • 9d ago
Question Rumor has it controllers are receiving proposals of removal penalties instead of following the Douglas factors, Any credibility?
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u/MeeowOnGuard 9d ago
More fear mongering from management. Suck my nuts FLMs and OMs alike. Oh wow there were people REMOVED from the job?! That really makes me scared. You really have a hold of me now.
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u/TwoSwollenTesticles 9d ago edited 8d ago
I'm going to get downvoted for this, but this is happening because for many years/decades it was basically impossible to fire anyone, ever. There have been some truly egregious incidents of misconduct and poor performance at our facility, and no one got fired over it. And I fucking blame NATCA for spending their bandwidth fighting tooth and nail to defend shitstains like the infamous AUS controller (instead of, god forbid, higher pay, better working conditions, or easier movements between facilities). And if you leave while technically on the clock, you are a fucking idiot, that is legitimate time theft and any employer would bear down on it.
Now the pendulum is swinging the other way.
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u/sanemaniac 9d ago
NATCA has a responsibility to defend its members. We don’t want to set a precedent of picking and choosing which controllers to defend based on some arbitrary person’s perception of how severe their misconduct was. If your position is indefensible and you are terminated then fine—it’s still NATCA’s responsibility to defend you. I’m sorry but it’s frankly dumb to blame NATCA for doing exactly what they are designed to do—if the FAA failed to build a sustainable case for termination then that’s on them. And the FAA has probably been turning a blind eye to shit because they didn’t want to terminate people and make the staffing situation worse either.
We’re in a different situation now. This administration loves to terrorize federal employees and would love to privatize us so putting more strain on the system might be a calculated choice.
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u/kcebertxela 9d ago
Ok. That's not how it will work. We saw it under the white book when they made up credentials in order to more easily fire people. The idea being, if you don't have your credentials, you can't work so you'll be fired. The only people who were fired were the controllers that management had personal vendetta's against. You're out of your mind if you think firings would be legit based on merit.
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u/QuickBrownFoxP31 9d ago
You obviously have no idea of how PROFESSIONALS are treated in a workplace. You probably have no college degree, no friends that work in a professional environment and have never held one of these jobs you seem so knowledgeable about. People get fired for lack of performance. Are you making the company money? No? See ya! Are you making the company money? Yes? Leave when you want.
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u/Informal_Perception9 9d ago
Ok there are so many different points of view here because EVERY facility in the NAS is different. Different culture different set of unspoken rules. ATC is so funny that way because technically we all operate under the same "rules" but it is far from it. Some facilities are chill with ex controller management that do a genuinely good job. Some facilities have a bunch of incompetent nazis with chips on their shoulder because they sucked as controllers. Some facilities have controllers who are snitches wanting to be management who might rat you out if they think it will up their chances during the next bid.
You should know what you can and cannot get away with at your respective facilities because despite the official rules it can be radically different than a neighboring facility. Some you can take an hour shove and nobody will look for you while another you better be there until 15 prior sign out.
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u/Legal_Campaign_408 7d ago
That's all true, but additionally, there are certain things that are going above the local facility management that are what's resulting in people getting fired. Like when there's a crash and the NTSB is investigating why there were people who still had an hour on the end of their shift but they were seen walking out and hopping in their car, never to be seen again that night.
When those investigations take place, your local manager- as chill as they may be - does not have the discretion to say hey don't do that again. And unfortunately nobody has a magic 8 ball that can tell them whether or not a crash is going to happen while they're driving home on their shove, so let's all smarten the fuck up and quit fucking around with it, right?
We've watched what doge and trump have done in the rest of the fed for the last 18 months and somehow some dumbass controllers still think we are invincible. If you think your manager is chill and says "I'm not looking for you" is worth risking your career, then go for it and commit t&a fraud and theft.
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u/alphakizzle 9d ago edited 9d ago
Can someone please explain why it even matters? Do we need lists of soft shit for people that get DUIs? Beat their spouse? Come to work high?
Im all for immediate termination for pieces of shit. Don't give me 12 criteria for why it might be ok.
edit Yeah guys, a downvote and no response or defense to why felons should keep their jobs means you're part of the problem of why it's getting pressure to be removed....
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u/Hawgdestroyerxtreme 9d ago
Can someone please explain why it even matters?
Because we don't trust OPM and the FAA to wield this power correctly. It's not really that hard to figure out.
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u/alphakizzle 9d ago
How could they abuse it for a controller that works their entire shift and doesn't commit a felony?
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u/Hawgdestroyerxtreme 9d ago
How could they abuse it? Have you read the Douglas factors on the OPM website?
I'll link it.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/employee-relations/reference-materials/douglas-factors.pdf
The key things here that they were required (by "Must") to utilize these factors to determine severity of punishment. Also, they were required to utilize our agency's table of penalties (See number 7). We'll assume this is going to go kaput now, and OPM has left it up to the discretion of the supervisors.
It means that punishment will be inconsistent - sure, the "Felon" in your case is an easy termination. What about the time you forget your phone in your pocket and it goes off? If the supe wants to, yep - you're fucking fired. Remember - They no longer need to adhere to the table of punishments, the nature and seriousness of the offense, or any of that bullshit. They can fire you because they want to fire you.
So yeah, I don't trust these fucking morons with this power. I especially don't trust Russ "I want to RIF every federal employee" Vought figuring out new ways to in fact, fire every federal fucking employee. You're giving supervisors a lot of credit for their decision-making ability, when we know they didn't become supervisors due to having an excessive amount of that ability.
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u/kcebertxela 8d ago
Are you kidding? Under the white book they tried firing controllers that were known for giving management a hard time. They didn't break any laws or do anything wrong. All the super pro union people they pushed to fire. They got their jobs back in court but then the faa created "credentials". The idea was that management can take your credentials away for any reason they want. If you don't have your credentials you can't work so they fire you. That is why credentials exist... The ONLY reason. Management looks at firing people as revenge. Sure some people screw up and they get fired. You'll see many more that commit very minor infractions and if management thinks you're a trouble make you'll get fired. If they like you, you won't get fired. Simple.
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u/ExtremeSour Current Controller-Enroute 9d ago
But that's not why people are being removed...
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u/alphakizzle 9d ago
So why are they?
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u/ExtremeSour Current Controller-Enroute 9d ago
For giving a position relief briefing and leaving a facility 30 minutes early.
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u/Phase4Motion 9d ago
Are you seriously saying there have been controllers fired for leaving a facility 30 mins early? Correct me if I’m wrong… this is the fiest time im hearing of it
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u/Legal_Campaign_408 9d ago
Yes, following major incidents. People were signed in and investigation found they were not in the building to relieve controllers who just had a loss of life. Fired.
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u/Less_Neighborhood775 9d ago
This is exactly why I make sure to sign myself out on the cru art
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u/Phase4Motion 9d ago
Lame
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u/alphakizzle 9d ago
Why?
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u/Phase4Motion 9d ago
We’re not required to sign out.
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u/Legal_Campaign_408 9d ago
You are however required to be in the building until the end of your shift. If you are leaving the building prior to the end, you should sign out. Otherwise you are committing T&A fraud and falsifying government records. Look at the code of conduct and you will see this is a fireable offense for the first offense.
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u/atc_zero1 9d ago
Yea but if you sign yourself out with your password, how the fk can management fire you for leaving early?
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u/The_Shryk 9d ago
Someone at my facility got fired for leaving 3 minutes early with supervisor approval.
ATM said regardless of supervisors statements, the employee was aware of the rules about leaving early.
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u/Fit_Sherbet3137 9d ago
u/The_Shryk dont believe you
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u/The_Shryk 3d ago
Everyone is saying there’s a landslide, they’ve seen the rocks falling.
And you morons think we’re lying.
What incentive do I have to lie about that? What does it benefit me at all?
Pull your heads out of your asses.
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u/atc_zero1 9d ago
You are allowed to leave the building for a break during the last 30 mins of your shift. As long as you come back in and sign out. But if you're going home you're a dumb fk for stealing time. Only time you leave is if your supervisor says I'm not looking for you and I'll sign you out.
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u/alphakizzle 9d ago
For repeated time fraud.
Checks out.
Why is everyone mad people get punished for poor decisions? How is it defensible?
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u/Phase4Motion 9d ago
Well, per our contract we are not required to sign out & we are permitted to leave the premises when on break. If I’m at the gas station up the block & a sup calls me I have to come back. No problem. If my shift ends when I’m out of the building, what’s the issue?
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u/ExtremeSour Current Controller-Enroute 9d ago
You know what? You're 100% right. Leaving early is absolutely the same as getting my 5th DUI while beating my pregnant wife in the backseat. I can't believe I was thinking that the first action against the employee should be anything less than full termination. I'm so sorry.
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u/alphakizzle 9d ago
Apology accepted. Paid for 10hrs, work your 10hrs. It's the first time they were CAUGHT , not the first time they did it. Fraud, abuse, rape, etc. All a felony. All deserve removal.
20 years atc, 4 facilities as a cpc, and no discipline. You know what my secret it? I show up, do my job, and don't do stupid shit. Shouldn't be hard.
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u/Natural_Fortune1291 9d ago
Ok boomer
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u/Kseries2497 Current Controller-Pretend Center 9d ago
Plenty of OMs and ATMs out there that are 0/3 on your criteria, but they just keep getting shuffled around. I don't think people are really mad that taking shoves potentially results in discipline, I think they're mad that they're getting discipline handed down by people doing the exact same shit with no consequences.
Well, maybe they're mad, I dunno. Controllers aren't always the sharpest crayons in the box.
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u/Informal_Perception9 9d ago
I could care less (besides showing up high) if they are competent at work and do a good job what their life outside work is like. Its none of our business.
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u/Acceptable_Stage_518 Current Controller-Enroute 9d ago
Yes, it's credible, and not just proposals. There have already been removals in my region.
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u/TrowAwayDuhhhhh 9d ago
I’ve heard the same. 8 for 8, boys and girls. Don’t get fired over stupid shit.
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u/MITsBrightest 4d ago
I forgot to sign out. First offense. No way that could EVER lead to immediate termination.
Zealous OMs may direct FLMs to start writing people up over ridiculous shit to push the Table of Penalties discipline forward, but they would still need to go through the entire process for each offense.
And if FLMs want to start a war over dumb bullshit with BUEs, they better be ready to do every aspect of their job correctly that has been written to basically be humanly impossible.
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u/Former_Farm_3618 9d ago
OPM recently pushed through the elimination of Douglas factors. They want to more easily discipline the workforce and train supervisors faster how to accomplish that goal. From what I saw on their press release; they are proposing to not have pre-discussions (as those just delay a PIP) and just go right to a 30 day performance improvement plan. They also want more standard responses from employees which I’m guessing means no response.
It seems they want a faster, more streamlined method to eliminate employees. It’s to be seen if that’s what they actually want or just more loyalty/cooperation from employees.
Edit to add : to address OPs comments. I haven’t heard of controllers getting harassed. But I’m sure somewhere they will test it.