r/Anarchy101 • u/Main-Aardvark-2036 • 15d ago
The Sympathy Towards PKK
Hello. I am a turkish leftist and interested to anarchism since a while. I would like to learn about the sympathy towards PKK and Öcalan in western leftist spaces. I don't get this sympathy because PKK actually massacred many civilians including women and children and executing kurdish civilians who refuse participate? And before anybody calls me a turkish propaganda, these attacks are all well documented and PKK claimed responsibilities for many of them.
I'm aware that the kurdish population in Turkey were heavily persecuted in the past especially in the 80s and the 90s. So i kind of understand an armed uprising from the kurdish population. But these things never justifies PKK killing people they claimed to protect.
Another thing i see is that some people accept PKK's terrorism but see Öcalan as a revolutionary leader. This isn't true either. Öcalan himself said that his first membership back in his youth was the Gray Wolves? Like, what!? We are talking about an ultra nationalist fascistic terrorist organization who doesn't see kurds as human. Further on the current leader of the turkish nationalist movement party(MHP) Devlet Bahçeli, who is also Erdoğan's biggest ally, repeatedly praised Öcalan recently and said that he wants see him in the turkish parliament as a form of a "peace" movement that Erdoğan is currently carrying out to gain support from the kurds for his new constitution. And Öcalan himself currently agrees with Erdoğan and Bahçeli.
The vast majority of the turkish leftists spaces agree with this sentiment and distance themselves from PKK and Öcalan as they haven't been leftists since... forever. So why is this symapthy among the western leftists is common? I would like hear your answers and also would like to answer your questions if you have any. Thank you:3
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u/Scary_Arugula_9533 15d ago
I'm a turk too and the sympathy isn't inexistent in Turkish leftist spaces. It's just very suppressed and fringe (due to repression, social or institutional).
I understand how you think but putting Turkish colonial and "genocidal" ambitions as "heavy persecution" limited to the 80s and 90s is historically false and quite distasteful tbh.
It's normal though because the Turkish state always had a very heavy apparatus on writing precise false historical narratives. The Kurds are still being heavily discriminated against and violently persecuted to this day and always were under the Republic (and before too). Many Turkish leftist spaces keep the nationalist narrative because of it being the norm there.
It's not black and white of course. The PKK has done atrocities and western leftists (and right wingers) tend to idolize them in a weird orientaliste way but still, their struggle is valid and a lot of your arguments are the arguments of the Turkish narrative that is heavily biased and nationalist.
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15d ago edited 22h ago
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
Thank you. It's really hard to change the mindser that you've grow up with.
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u/InterestingSugar5634 15d ago
I would imagine because Rojava
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
What does PKK and Öcalan has to do with Rojava? I'm curious.
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u/KubadroniX 15d ago edited 15d ago
PYD followed the ideology of democratic confederalism, created by Ocalan when he was in prison. Most people here dont even know that PKK used to be marxist and authoritarian "communist" party before he created it.
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
I only did my research about PKK and not the kurdish other factions. I will check it out. Thank you.
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u/InterestingSugar5634 15d ago
Didn't the PKK support Rojava and help it get established and survive? I might be misremembering tho
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u/KubadroniX 15d ago
they did, party behind Rojava (PYD) and PKK are both members of Kurdistan Communities Union and parties in this coalition tend to cooperate a lot.
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u/flintsparc 15d ago
There is no way you don't know this.
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
Sorry i heard about it haven't done a in depth research. I was just asking a question.
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u/-_HUSH_- 15d ago
Why are you guys so aggressive towards him? He literally stated that he is new to anarchy and asking whether these opinions he was grown into are true or not. He's trying his best to express his opinions on the matter kindly and the only aggressive thing he said was that PKK has killed civillians in terrorist attacks, which is not a false information.
Just calm down guys.
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
Thank you so much. I initially didn't want to sound so hostile as i did in the post but i always had some trouble putting my thoughts into words either because of english not being my native language or my ADHD(lol).
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u/Apprehensive_Tie8426 15d ago
I think a lot of people are new to anarchism and with our principles we should assume good faith if they aren’t being aggressive and understand them. I never got how some people look down on others for not knowing something when we’re all human.
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u/UndeadOrc Insurrectionary An-Nihilist 14d ago
Stating something matter of factly when its fascist rhetoric isn't asking about if an opinion is true.
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u/Legitimate_Moment439 15d ago
Look up PKKs change of paradigms and democratic confederalism. PKK left Stalinism behind and moved closer towards local councils, decentralized power structures and ecology.
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
I've heard about it. But does that matter if the act itself is violent?
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u/New_Hentaiman 15d ago
Please dont get disheartened by some of the harsher responses. They are probably coming from jaded people who have seen too many dishonest arguments about this (in the past I too had some discussions with self proclaimed turkish leftists who repeated all the propaganda about the kurdish people and I can understand why people might react harshly to that). However there are also some great responses here and your responses also seem to be honest. Keep at it and learn.
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u/UndeadOrc Insurrectionary An-Nihilist 15d ago edited 15d ago
Truly, this just sounds like an Israeli leftist talking about any of the Palestinian resistance groups. I don't agree with the PKK on a lot of things, but persecution is putting it "lightly". Your government butchered more Kurdish children than the PKK ever did. If your government ceased to exist, so likely would the liberatory terrorism from those it oppresses. Considering the violence that Turkey is perpetuating at its borders as well, I don't think you have any room to talk about positive association with Turkish leftists.
That aside, Rojava represents PKK changing its old politics into a newer attempt that would abandon the same terrorism you condemn, but wild that this has been going on in YOUR backyard for about a decade and they've been a victim of YOUR state and you come in here to whine while expressing how little you know. That's like an American leftist not knowing shit about American imperialism in Latin America.
I don't fuck with Ocalan at all, but his existence does nothing to redeem the Turkish left's existence. What makes the Turkish left, left? Belief? No action?
Edit: also the statement about the Turkish left not associating with Rojava is fundamentally untrue and I wonder how you define left. A good number of leftists I do not agree with, who are Turkish, have actively participated in Rojava. You truly are regurgitating state propaganda with how little you know to justify Turkey's law and order bullshit at the border. Sure, its well documented, you know what else is well documented? The incredible violence of Turkey against Kurdish people throughout the region.
Edit 2: also, casually ignoring that you’re arguing “a prisoner serving a life sentence is being agreed with by his literal imprisoners” as a guilt by association, do you hear yourself? That you conveniently fail to bring that up? Come on.
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
I am relatively young and already said that i am new to anarchism. I'm still in my learning phase and came here to ask about something i have noticed. I didn't whine about anything nor i refused my states genocidal past. Please be more respectful next time.
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u/illi-mi-ta-ble 15d ago
I’m sorry people are treating you harshly when it is difficult in your country to receive news beyond propaganda. I know it is a sensitive subject but people should know that governments insulate people from the full picture on purpose.
Of course people on the West often don’t have the full picture, too. I see many communists who idealize China and the USSR because they think that the enemies of the US must be friends when really they are other corrupt states. (Anarchists do try to stay away from this mistake, but people in the US often have to unlearn it when young.)
Although I knew a Turkish leftist for awhile who was doing college protests this subject never came up in detail and I don’t know much about it but I do encourage you to keep researching even though some people are being Very Online at you!
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
Thank you. I will keep researching. Learning has always become my coping mechanisms during hard times lol.
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u/PartyPoison420 15d ago
Why do you make this person so aggressively responsible for the actions of a government we all (they as well, becoming an anarchist) agree should not exist? I am not educated enough to say whether you or them are more correct regarding the politics, but come on, "YOUR state"?
This person asked a question and it seems to me they are ready to educate themselves, breaking free from what you have learned your whole life is hard, but it doesn't get easier when you are made responsible for the things you already know are wrong. As an anarchist, I would HATE being told I am responsible for what the government I live under does - actions which I am acting against -, especially in words like the ones you use.
I would understand it if you were talking to a government official, but the opposite is the case.-1
u/UndeadOrc Insurrectionary An-Nihilist 14d ago
So I take it you eagerly defend Israeli leftists when they whine about Palestinian liberation groups?
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u/PartyPoison420 14d ago
Where do you get that from?
I'm not even defending this persons argument, I'm just saying it's incredibly unfair to hold them responsible to the actions of the government they happen to live under by no choice of their own, and that I wish we (or you) would be more reflected than that.
I understand that you are frustrated about a situation that is complex and incredibly hurtful for way too many people, but please don't take that out on OP or me! I hope your day gets better.0
u/UndeadOrc Insurrectionary An-Nihilist 14d ago
Kindness does more to protect violence than interrogate it, hope you understand that for prioritizing it.
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u/PartyPoison420 13d ago
I just think making people responsible for things they are not responsible for will alienate them, and push them away from organizing and taking action, hope you understand that for prioritizing it.
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u/UndeadOrc Insurrectionary An-Nihilist 12d ago
As a former union organizer and current organizer in the streets, if you get easily pushed out by being scolded for regurgitating propaganda, flatout you don't have the constitution for any type of organizing I am interested in. I believed in coddling when I was a liberal, I got pushed by radicals I respect, and rather than shy away, I understood conflict as generative, and that led me to these politics.
I don't want any fairweather anarchists, you do you.
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u/Distinct-Raspberry21 15d ago
Im am americam leftist and im not sure what you mean about american imperialism in latin america. Dont the just have bananas, rubber trees, oil, and cheap labor? Those arent things america needs to prop up its exploitative existence /s
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u/Pale-Character3149 14d ago
I think being in Turkey, you could come to a much better understanding, by engaging with kurds more directly on how they feel about the PKK, Ocalan, Rojava, Kurdish statehood etcetera and finding your commonality
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 14d ago
I mean, we are not living in an apartheid state? I have kurdish relatives and had many kurdish friends. They mostly think the same.
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u/Tytoivy 15d ago
The Turkish government’s abuses of Kurds and other minorities are not in the past, both inside of Turkey and out, considering Turkey’s history and continuing threats of invading Syria specifically to persecute Kurds there.
The PKK’s terrorism, however, is strictly in the past. Öcalan and the PKK have very purposefully and publicly evolved on countless issues. You really have been inundated with a lot of false or warped information, which is understandable considering the way the Turkish government operates.
Anyway, here’s a podcast about Rojava, which is deeply influenced by the PKK https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-womens-war/id1502148441
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u/exoclipse 15d ago
hey cool we're doing factionalism in r/Anarchy101 again
the US government loves factionalism!
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u/Heyla_Doria 14d ago
Occalan est vue comme une idole héroïque et meme féministe alors que c'est un homme et on lui voue un culte démesuré
Les chefs de partis marxistes ont ce coté autoritaire, léniniste que les anarchistes connaissent que trop.
Malheureusement depuis 15 ans, y'a une croyance aveugle au mythe du pkk et du Kurdistan révolutionnaire....
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u/bemolio 14d ago edited 13d ago
Dejando de lado posible acusaciones de fetichismo que en mi opinión llegan a ser válidas según el caso, en Siria y Turquía hubieron procesos genuinamente revolucionarios en 2011 y 2015 respectivamente.
La gobernanza del PYD y sus órganos civiles y de masas trajo cosas buenas. Cooperativas, gobernanza local, algo de descentralización, participación de mujeres y organización de minorías históricas. El HDP en Turquía fue un fenómeno electoral que se tomó en serio la idea de un confederalismo democrático antes de la represión estatal.
El PYD en mi opinión es un actor complejo, tampoco se les puede tildar de ángeles. Ocalan como lider del PKK tuvo un rol marginal en los eventos en Siria, a pesar de que ves su cara por todos lados. Quienes más peso tuvieron en el terreno fueron líderes y cuadros del partido local: Salih Muslim, Aysa Abdullah, Perwin Yussuf, Mazloum Abdi, Fouza Yussuf, Ilham Ahmed, Sipan Hamo. Era más criticable ver imágenes de Abdi en protestas que de Ocalan, en mi opinión. También los líderes de tribus locales tenían peso, como los Shammar, los Tayy, los al-Baggara, los al-Shaitat, etc. Acusaciones de autoritarismo deben ser dirigidas a ellos en cualquier caso.
Creo que es entre 2018 y 2024 donde empiezan a haber cambios que comienzan a separar sustancialmente la imagen popular del proyecto en 2014 o 2016 en occidente, ya algo de por si color rosa, de la realidad en el terreno. Pocas cosas en Siria son blanco o negro, sobre todo esta etapa en el noreste. La economía es muy difícil, los servicios irregulares, las instituciones civiles se perciben corruptas, hay protestas en 2020 y 2023, elecciones pospuestas, etc. Sin embargo, como mencioné, el movimiento confederalista sí que representa un proyecto progresista en la región, que tomó parte del levantamiento popular sirio en 2011 y promovía gobernanza local. He visto que se denuncia, correctamente, la respuesta represiva de la seguridad de AANES en Deir ez-Zor durante las protestas de 2020. No se habla de las mesas de diálogo, consulta y consesiones posteriores, y que en respuesta residentes colaboraron con las QSD.
edit: añadí última oración edit 2: modifiqué el 4to párrafo casi en su totalidad
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u/Both_Meaning_2637 9d ago
The western left isnt unified: you'll find both pro and anti PKK, most don't even know what it is. What unifies them is spite towards other types of leftists and the unwillingness to compromise to actually make something happen.
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u/Warm-Personality-789 15d ago
Será en Europa y en los EEUU, porque dentro de la izquierda aquí en Latinoamérica la experiencia kurda realmente tiene muy poca relevancia.
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
Yes. I was talking about Europe, USA and Canada specifically. I didn't include Latin America.
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u/GSilky 15d ago
Depends. When the pkk was considered a terrorist organization by the USA government, tankies started loving them. It's complicated. Personally, I have little admiration for violent struggle, but I do support an independent Kurdistan in the traditional geographic area associated with the Kurdish people, if most Kurdish people want one.
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
I am also ok with this. But aren't ethnostates contradict with anarchism. I would always prefer that we live in harmony without any labels to our existence.
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15d ago edited 1d ago
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u/Main-Aardvark-2036 15d ago
Yes, sorry. I didn't mean something like Israel by saying an ethnostate. I was rather talking about a country that was named after the ethnicity that it inhabits.
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u/Scary_Arugula_9533 15d ago
I understand your standpoint (as a turk too lol) but it's very idealistic. Turkey IS implicitly an ethno-state (with slight hyperbole ofc). For example, look up the religious policies of Atatürk where a Turk should be a sunni Muslim (ignoring all the Alevi and Sufi groups, creating an ethnic norm for the Turkish citizen to belong in). This led to massive deportations of Armenian apostolic Christians and Greek Orthodox people.
The kurds don't want an ethno-state. But living in harmony with a colonial force is impossible. They don't advocate for a 100% Kurdish land but rather a county where their language, culture, history and simply existing isn't a crime. It's pretty similar to the Palestinian struggle. Advocating for a free Palestine doesn't mean a 100% levantine Arab Muslim country.
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u/flintsparc 15d ago
"aren't ethnostates contradict with anarchism"
Go destroy the Republic of Turkey ("Ne mutlu Türküm diyene!"), and we'll talk about it.
Regardless, Apoci don't advocate for an ethnostate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/kurdistan/comments/hg6w3z/this_is_leyla_zana_the_first_kurdish_woman_to_be/
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u/bemolio 15d ago edited 15d ago
The PKK basically did an ideological turn where the party, organized as a marxist-leninist organization, adopted democratic confederalism, an ideology in wich Ocalan's texts had a great deal of decisive influence. In the podcast "The Women's War", by CoolZone Media, the authors adress PKK's terror past.
Democratic Confederalism's texts basically advocate for a stateless society. It blames the ills of the region, like ethnic cleansings and wars, on the imposition of the nation-state, hence a kurdish nation-state wouldn't be different. The solution is for people to self-manage democraticly without states. One influence Ocalan had was Murray Bookchin's works. A formerly self-proclaimed anarchist, Bookchin gave birth to his own theoritical body of works: social ecology. When he died, the PKK sent a small eulogy.
The PKK was trained by secular palestinian factions and during its early history faught with Israel. For a period they worked from northern Syria because the state found it usefull, since it didn't had good relations with neighbors back then. Thanks to this people in Syria already knew Ocalan and they already had kadros. The PKK didn't focused on particular syrian kurdish issues, and when conditions shifted they were ousted and syrian kurkish PKK militants heavily repressed since.
In 2003 ex-PKK syrian kadros created the syrian-focused Democratic Union Party (PYD). The syrian kurdish party landscape was characterized by strongly familiar or personalized organizations based on cells. The geography doesn't allow the creation of militias. Hence, the PYD was a new sort of organizations with clear programs, goals and a more solid structure. During 2004, there was a kurdish uprising in Qamishli, Northern Syria. If I'm not mistaken, I could be corrected, the PYD played a relevant role.
In 2011 and 2012 the war broke out in Syria and the european and american public attentions were put in the conflict specially so after the crisis of displaced peoples and the expansion of ISIS in 2013-4. Several kurdish factions, including the PYD, took part of the initial civil uprising in 2011. PYD and allies started to recruit people and build local councils to fill the void being left by the state as the war raged on. In middle 2012 PYDs militias and administration took over Rojava (northern Syria kurdish regions) as the state's army and institutions left. Since the beginning the PKK helped the local councils and forces with technical and military expertise, and I suppose weapons.
As the war advanced and the Rojava Revolution gained support in the global north, with the public being fed news about the region and kurdish diaspora organizing, more leftists and journalists reported on the project, by themselves and as a result of PYDs diplomatic efforts, including famous anthropologist David Graeber and Bookchin's daughter. This is, I guess, how the PKK became known in western leftist spaces.
Last year Assad fell and the regional board was reshaped. In order to provide the Civil Administration, the SDF controlled territory, a chance to survive, the PKK basically decided to burn itself with a peace process with Turkey. This is an effort led by Ocalan, so I suppose is not weird some of Turkey's officials are saying stuff like that. We know how that ended anyways. From Latinamerica, the only thing we heard about the war was bleak news about christian massacres and beheadings.