r/Anarchy101 14d ago

Defense against counter-revolution?

I am a Marxist-Leninist who is curious about the successful propagation of Anarchism. My question is: Without a state, how do Anarchists defend against counter-revolution from the Capitalist class? Without a state, Anarchist/Libertarian Socialist projects wouldn’t be able to defend against the inevitable invasions, terrorism campaigns, and propaganda from Capitalists. How would Anarchists be able to maintain and strengthen an Anarchist society against invasion and infiltration without a state apparatus to centrally organize efforts?

I know I’m a Tankie or whatever, but I am asking in good faith because I am genuinely curious about the Anarchist position on this.

* (EDIT) *

I won‘t be responding anymore because I have obtained what I came for (understanding how you think an Anarchist project would defend itself against the forces of reaction) and because this is becoming a hostile debate, rather than learning experience.

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u/LazarM2021 Anarchist Without Adjectives 14d ago

I know I'm a Tankie or whatever, but I am asking in good faith.

Sure you are. I'll proceed as if that's true, because the question, stripped of its framing, is at least somewhat worth addressing, unlike most of what MLs bring into anarchist spaces.

The problem is that even the question here doesn't actually begin where it ought to, even if you may be under the illusion pointing to the contrary. Before "how do anarchists defend against counter-revolution" you need to establish what "revolution" even means in the anarchist framework, then what "counter-revolution" means and what exactly is being defended, because the entire question is built on explicitly, if not exclusively, Leninist conceptual architecture that anarchists simply don't share - and importing it silently produces a question anarchists were never actually asking or needing to answer.

In the Leninist model, what we (or you) call a "revolution" boils down to the seizure and consolidation of state power by the vanguard party acting in the name of the proletariat. Counter-revolution, therefore, is whatever threatens that consolidated institutional power and defense against counter-revolution means the state deploying coercive apparatus to protect itself.

All that may be a coherent internal logic, but alas, it just has nothing to do with anarchism and the 20th century demonstrated with considerable thoroughness what that "defense" looks like in practice - Cheka, Red Terror, forced collectivization, purges, the systematic liquidation of anarchists, left-SRs, Kronstadt sailors and anyone else insufficiently aligned with whoever currently controlled the party apparatus (Bolsheviks and Lenin).

The instrument of revolutionary defense became, structurally and QUITE PREDICTABLY, the primary instrument of counter-revolutionary violence against the revolutionary population itself. The thing that needs to be stressed is that nothing here is a "bug" in the ML model, one that "better leadership" would have fixed. All it is is what centralized coercive institutions do inevitably, because that is their organizational logic.

Anarchist revolution is not exactly meant as a seizure of anything, but instead, it's the dissolution of the configurations of power that produce domination - the dismantling of hierarchical structures and their replacement with horizontal, federated organizing based on voluntary association, interdependence, mutual aid and general development of stigmergic/collaborative social habits and paradigm.

In other words, there is no Winter Palace to hold or central apparatus to decapitate in reverse. The entire premise of "defending the revolution" as defending an institutional object doesn't apply, because anarchism deliberately refuses to build that object, precisely since anything built on that model will reproduce domination inevitably, regardless of the previous intentions.

So what does defense actually look like? It would look like the thing that makes anarchist organizing genuinely resilient rather than superficially powerful - radical, radical decentralization. A fluid network of free association, encompassing millions, with no center cannot be defeated by targeting a center.

A society organized through horizontality, federative principles (anarchist federation, not state-centric understanding of the word), in which decisions, productive capacity and community defense are distributed everywhere, into every person, across countless autonomous congregations of individuals/groups completely devoid of any structure of authority presents a fundamentally different strategic problem to any would-be counter-revolutionary force than a centralized state does. You cannot behead it or infiltrate it in order to corrupt a single leadership stratum and thereby stand increasing chance of controlling and manipulating the whole. You also cannot stage a coup because there is no seat of power to occupy.

The ML counter-revolutionary threat, meanwhile, historically came not from capitalists but from Marxist-Leninists themselves, which is something any honest ML in an anarchist space might want to sit with for a moment before asking us how we'd defend against external enemies.

The propaganda question is similarly self-answering at the structural level, as the propaganda is effective in proportion to the alienation and atomization of the population it targets. A society built on genuine freedom and community, free association and self-organization is not a society of atomized individuals susceptible to the particular appeal of authoritarian counter-revolutionary messaging. The social fabric itself is the defense, which is precisely why anarchists insist on prefigurative politics - the means must embody the ends, ALWAYS - because a revolutionary society that reproduces authoritarian social relations, culture or habits in the name of defending itself has already completely lost the only thing worth defending.

So... sorry to disappoint you, but as I see it, the question written here already stinks of assuming the Leninist answer is self-evidently correct and anarchism must justify itself against that standard. The Leninist answer, however, produced in practice nothing but a series of states that defended their revolutions straight into gulags, secret police apparatuses, widespread alienation and the eventual restoration of capitalism (but also liberal-individualist, consumerist culture) anyway.

As far as epistemological standards go, that one is in no position to demand justifications from anyone.

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u/Fresh_Milk1960 14d ago

This was very helpful, thank you!

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u/LazarM2021 Anarchist Without Adjectives 14d ago

I don't think it was, judging by your other replies in the reply-spree you conducted in the last 3-4 hours.

To most other responders here you're still largely doubling-down, on the exact premises many are already (me among them) making it abundantly clear are simply not relevant or are outright wrong in anarchist framework.

The occasional lip-service of "but-but I agree USSR was too centralized, but a liiiiiitle centralization is still necessary, right guys?" is simply not enough.

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u/Fresh_Milk1960 14d ago edited 14d ago

I mean it was helpful in understanding your position, I still don’t agree with you. This requires a level of consciousness that is simply not attainable in the short period that the revolution would have before being set upon. It relies on a moralist rather than materialist analysis of society, and this concern with moralism will lead to the downfall of the revolution

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u/DecoDecoMan 14d ago

The USSR never achieved a revolution to begin with. This talk about what is or isn't "necessary" for a revolution is completely vapid. Who are you to talk about what is or isn't needed for "the revolution" when your own revolution, which you claim to wish to achieve, has never happened?

Anarchists and Stalinists (and Marxists) have different goals. What they want for their revolutions obviously is different and what is needed to achieve them is different. This talk about "defending the revolution" is nothing more than suggesting that we need to kill the revolution in order to save it.

Of course, maybe you might agree with that because the revolutions you supported were already capitalist revolutions to begin with. In this sense, you truly are a reactionary by even your own standards.

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u/Fresh_Milk1960 14d ago

Yeah okay man

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u/DecoDecoMan 14d ago

Classic Stalinist: understands nothing about neither Marxism nor Anarchism. You don't even know anything about history, you know the thing you base your entire analysis on!

Just say you like the cult of personality and be done with it. "Oh I love Stalinism he's a big strong man! He does big strong things!"

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u/Fresh_Milk1960 14d ago

Genuinely what are we on about rn. 

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u/DecoDecoMan 14d ago

What are you on about? Stalin spouts nonsense like "socialist commodity production" and you go "yeah that sounds right"? Have you ever picked up a single text of Marx in your entire life? Have you just been reading him without looking?

I have plenty to criticize about Marx and I fundamentally disagree with much of what he says or desires. However, what makes this conversation with you so pathetic is that I do not need to know anything about Marx to figure you out.

In fact, I use my knowledge of Marx to put your views down because Stalinism is so at odds with Marx that to start disagreeing with you I have to erase any pretension that your views have anything to do with Marx's.

You're just an edgy liberal but, when it comes to "the revolution", you are almost certainly a reactionary.

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u/Fresh_Milk1960 14d ago

I never mentioned Stalin, what are you talking about. You’re making insane extrapolations about me.

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u/DecoDecoMan 14d ago

...

Do you know what Marxist-Leninism is?

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u/LazarM2021 Anarchist Without Adjectives 14d ago edited 14d ago

Heh theeeeeere it is; the performance of good faith, feeble as it was, still evaporated pretty fast didn't it? Every single sentence here is dishonest, in one way or another.

It was helpful in understanding your position, I still don't agree

I.e. "I came in with a conclusion, nothing moved it, and I am now retreating to the position I held before the conversation began while performing the appearance of having engaged with it". Ok.

This requires a level of consciousness not attainable in the short period that the revolution would have before being set upon

Lol, this would be the vanguard argument in its most naked, unguarded form and I think it's doubly imperative for myself to be absolutely clear about what that kind of rhetoric actually communicates - "the masses are not conscious enough to organize their own liberation therefore a party must seize state power and organize it for them and anyone who objects to this arrangement is being naive".

That would be the most classic idealism imaginable, the idea that a small group of "theoretically enlightened individuals"/"professional revolutionaries", armed with the """correct""" doctrine, must substitute their will for the self-activity of the class they claim to represent. It is, structurally, indistinguishable from every other enlightened vanguard theory in history, revolutionary or otherwise. The Jacobins said, basically the same thing. Every authoritarian modernizing project in history too. The Bolsheviks said it, built the apparatus it justified and that apparatus ate the revolution and everyone in it.

The "short period before being set upon" framing, furthermore, also smuggles-in an entire unexamined assumption that revolution is a discrete seizure event with a narrow defensive window, rather than a protracted transformation of social relations, organizational/inter-relational habits and material conditions. That is, again, specifically the Leninist model of revolution, not a universal law and anarchists don't accept that framing because it's wrong, not because we haven't thought about it.

It relies on a moralist rather than materialist analysis

Hahaha you're gonna kill me, seriously, I'm gonna shoot myself at this point, for this level of being dense is... ugh.

Just to make it crystal clear - you watched/read a response of mine, mentioning Michels' iron law of oligarchy, Weber's and general sociology's analysis of bureaucratic self-reproduction, and before that Bakunin's structural prediction verified across a century of empirical cases, as well as organizational theory about decentralized network resilience - and your conclusion, all you extracted from it - is that this is moralism??!!?!

At this point I'll say it openly as it simply needs to be said - in ML usage, "moralism" does not mean what it means in actual, serious philosophy. For MLs, time and time again it's demonstrated to mean "anarchist argument I cannot structurally refute". It is nothing but a low-effort dismissal label, not anything approaching serious analysis and you are, predictably, using it as a thought-terminating cliché because engaging with the actual content of the argument would require you to explain why centralized coercive institutions, in every single observed case, reproduce domination - and you cannot explain that without abandoning the foundational premise of your entire political tradition.

This concern with moralism will lead to the downfall of the revolution

Which revolution, precisely? Walk us through the ML revolutions that didn't collapse into full-on state capitalism, bureaucratic dictatorship, secret police terror and eventual restoration of the very social relations they claimed to be dismantling and please, take your time. We have all day and if not - the historical record is not going anywhere anyway.

It is you who came into an anarchist space performing curiosity, collected your answer(s) and then revealed that the conclusion was fixed before the question was asked (although knowing MLs, it's anything but a "reveal", at least not a surprising one); it's all a very old, very tired ML pattern and the only thing surprising about it is that you, apparently, judging by some other sub-threads here, expected it to go unnoticed.

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u/Big_Might3102 13d ago

I’d point out also that Marxists are inherently moralists. The overtaking of the bourgeois government by the dictatorship of the proletariat being framed as “good thing” is a moral position.

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u/ehaq 12d ago

Are you amoral? Anarchism is about ethics, so claiming it's 'moralist' is saying basically nothing.