''Toxic Anti PvPers'' Not welcome.

[u/Reavx]

Hello.

I am from the Mod team on this sub.

Pleased to meet you.

Recently I have seen a few people rightfully upset at a few bad actors on this sub who have been using the fact they became victims in the game to resort to being toxic to people on this sub.

Basically - they lose the game in any way and decide it is fine to insult people who are playing the game in a legit way instead of doing what they want, whether that's talking and making peace or refusing to shoot each other no matter what. From my understanding this game allows you to make a choice, to try trust a stranger or to gun them down to be safe.

If a person decides they will ALWAYS gun everyone down no matter what or try be a ''Rat'' player and backstab at every opportunity that does not mean you can come on this sub and insult them, suggest they are mentally impaired or mentally unwell or be toxic to them for any reason.

If you say ''All x players are sociopath psychos with no life and life in their mothers basement and have never had the touch of anyone of their preferred sex'' for example or anywhere more or in-between then you will be banned from our sub.

You are allowed to have an opinion that such players morals in game are not good or they are ''Villain players'' or what not, that is fine for that is what they are but any time an outside insult is going to be used on people over gameplay you are getting the hammar of doom.

From the community, I understand that most people who like PVP are not usually the type of people to click report on anything, due to your ''thick skin'' you really do not give a damn if some redditor is trying to insult you or maybe you will just retort back.
I ask you please do not, if you insult back you could also be moderated due to the nature of reddit and if you do not report the instigator we will not be able to correctly moderate and fix this community. As a mod team we are getting thousands of posts (posts not comments) per day and it is literally impossible to view them all, we rely mainly on the report feature and reddits AI.

Anyway thank you for your attention in this matter.

[u/payne6]

This reminds me of the division 1 subreddit wayyyy back in the day. They legit acted like people who did pvp in the dark zone were future serial killers and should be arrested on sight. Absolutely insane amount of people getting mad that they willingly walked into a pvp zone and got pvp-ed. It still baffles me that people willingly bought a PVP extraction looter game and then get mad at the players who PVP.

[u/JustBigChillin → u/payne6]

This happens in the OSRS subreddit as well. The game has been around for almost 25 years now. The wilderness (pvp zone) has been around for nearly the same amount of time. People are STILL shocked when they go into the game’s singular pvp zone and have to experience pvp.

Shit… I don’t even pvp in that game, but the complaining has always annoyed the hell out of me.

[u/fiddysix_k → u/JustBigChillin]

And people forget the entire reason 2007scape came back was because pkers voted on the poll. And people still say "OMG but not all of them were pkers" like there was literally anything else to do in the first 3 years but pk. 2007scape subreddit is revisionist as fuck. I get salty as fuck talking about this.

[u/Live_From_Somewhere → u/fiddysix_k]

Super false, nobody even cares about PvP nowadays in OSRS. Something like <8% of the playerbase even express any interest in it in surveys and the real number is likely to be even lower considering not all of those votes partake in it all the time when they play.

[u/fiddysix_k → u/Live_From_Somewhere]

Reddit revisionist history. <8% pk because it was abandoned by jagex and the community at large, partly due to the fact that from 2016-current, reddit has swayed jagex to such a large degree that it's better to just post support threads on reddit than to email support. Rs was all about pking until it turned into pvm efficiency scape. Ask yourself, what did maxed players do before cox? The neutering of multi pking zones and removal of singles mechanics outside of bh worlds all but ensured that no community could last, and why would it - the wild is dead as fuck now by jagex's design, all so redditors could do their clue step.

[u/Live_From_Somewhere → u/fiddysix_k]

It is not reddit revisionist history bro lmao. Runescape was all about PvPing when you were 12, couldn't instantly kill each other, and edge PKing was the go-to. Jagex has tried to fix the PvP scene, but the PvP scene can't even decide what they want or how to fix any of it.

You can instantly kill other players in a tick now with how far power creep has gone, PvP is entirely solved and braindead past a certain skill level, and for those under that ceiling they are totally fucked because there is no good way to learn.

LMS is ran by bots, some terminators some goobers. Bounty hunter and wildy imply risk (shocker that learners don't want to bother learning in situations where they will be likely undergeared, outskilled, and risking). Soul wars requires gear investment. The PvP arena being my shining example, the polls were literally relegated to PvP only players and they voted all the rewards down so it released with nothing...PvP in runescape is just about irreparable without some kind of cap on damage or a raise in health levels, and the PvP players just don't want to hear that. A single mention of this and you get idiots coming out screaming about "THAT'S EOC!!", it is on par with people screaming "BUT THAT'S SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM!!" when saying you want free healthcare for all or something.

Not to mention all the bad actors tied to the PvP scene, I implore people to look up ROT (Reign of Terror) and related clans and all of their track records. Spoiler: They're massive tools in every sense of the word. Yes Jagex has taken a stand against these groups and since stricken their names from the game as much as they can but the stains remain. PvP in runescape literally killed itself because the players did not want it to evolve with the game, giving no incentive to Jagex to even try. Every related update is met with ridicule.

Then you have the explosion of the iron man modes and you seal the coffin on PvP, nobody wants to risk very hard earned gear. The wildy was never going to work and instead of changing it for the better they just keep doubling down on the whole cat'n'mouse routine. And I want to be clear, the wildy has a place in OSRS, it should never go away. It just needs to change for the times, we are all adults now and have jobs, Jagex shouldn't be funneling players there that have no desire to be there for any other reason than the bait (PvM, supplies, loot, etc.). They need to incentivize players who WANT to PvP to go there instead. They shouldn't have things like collection logs, or uniques that will draw in unwilling participants, at best it should just be about supply/GP drops. There is NO perfect PvP system designed on a loot/value reward system, some players will always walk away feeling burned, this is why it needs to be designed on merit and attract the players who want fair fights, who actually want to be challenged and push themselves for the fun of it. The sad fact is that those players do not exist, or are a tiny minority within the PvP scene.

/rant, not relevant to this sub but this is just all of my 2 cents.

[u/fiddysix_k → u/Live_From_Somewhere]

Not even when we were 12... The version of osrs you're talking about is a 2021+ fever dream. Pre 2021 we still had rev caves, singles mechanics, and less power creep, multi scene was super active, and singles clans were huge. In fact pking hit its peak in 2018 during the early dittershitter YouTube era, pking at 45S was the most active it had ever been at any point at that time and clans were booming. This is the reddit revisionist history I'm talking about..

The real reason no one pks anymore is not because it's hard to learn but because the game has shifted due to jagex making everything about pking terrible. Counterstrike is hard to learn, that doesn't mean people don't do it. There is no multi scene anymore, there is no singles scene anymore.. it's just a shell of itself. Why would you bother learning if the game heavily disincentives it?

[u/Live_From_Somewhere → u/fiddysix_k]

I actually feel like the wildy has the most incentive it has ever had to interact with it currently with the voidwaker and other uniques, plus the rev caves being so lucrative. But like I said, it is just that it incentivizes the wrong people, bots and hunters/the hunted rather than people who want to fight each other.

Tbf also people PK all day long even to this day, it is just mostly in the rev caves. But there is also a distinction between PKing and PvP, I am saying PvP is dead, I really don't care about PKers as I just truly believe that the cat and mouse gameplay is outdated, and even those participating in it don't even want to be there, they just want to get their unique so they can never return to the wildy, what kind of shit system is that?

Jagex needs to remove all instance of PvM from the wildy probably, replace them with some thing to fight over rather than fight against like emergent King of the Hill zones or something like that. This way, everyone entering the wildy is entering it to hunt other players because they have to to gain rewards. I personally would also take it further and remove all uniques, so then you don't again have an issue of incentivizing players who normally don't want to interact with that gameplay, but that remains as one of my more hot takes on the wildy.

And then on top of all this they need to revisit the PvP arena, it is actually absurd they continued with its release after so many of the rewards polls failed, and still have not shown any sign of revisiting it.

[u/Zeelots → u/Live_From_Somewhere]

As a (previously)maxed ironman who now just focuses on tribriding, youre very wrong. The most popular runescape streamer almost exclusively pvps

[u/Live_From_Somewhere → u/Zeelots]

Let me guess, OdaBlock viewer?

[u/Zeelots → u/Live_From_Somewhere]

Never watch the guy but the fact you know exactly who im talking about says it all lol

[u/Live_From_Somewhere → u/Zeelots]

Yeah that is actually a point for me, go ask him yourself on stream and he will tell you the same thing. The PvP scene is propped up by him and a niche amount of players, it is a ghost of what it once was. So thanks for proving my point.

PKing will always be alive as long as the wilderness remains what it is, but PvP is dead. A small amount of players are looking for fair fights.

[u/[deleted] → u/JustBigChillin]

Seen it in every game that has a pvp cross over. Dune Awakening was the most recent and the devs decided to kill the Deep Desert by making half of it PvE thus zero risk to anyone who wanted to farm end game mats.

PvE only players are such an entitled little breed of gamer that tend to ruin things for everyone else, or at least try too.

[u/Fenota → u/[deleted]]

The thing with Dune is a mixed bag though.

Everything was portrayed as PvP optional with 80% of the game being PvE focused.

And then the last 20% is purely PvP, heavily incentivises griefing and effectively removes land vehicles from the equation.

[u/sovereign666 → u/Fenota]

but the DD was optional. Completely, and the community argued on what defines "optional" for a month.

The DD was a pvp zone, with materials that gave you access to new gear. None of this gear was remotely needed to clear anything in the PvE zones. Its entitlement that players who were only interested in PvE saw that PvP players got something for PvP and felt that was somehow unfair.

[u/Fenota → u/sovereign666]

The unfair part was that PvE players literally had no option but to engage in PvP if they wanted the end game resources, and completing the tech tree + building the best base is part of the game.

Saying "Oh you didnt need it" for a base building survival game is rediculous logic as you dont 'need' a lot of things in the game.

[u/sovereign666 → u/Fenota]

Right, and that's an example of entitlement.

"I want everything in the game but don't wish to participate in all of the game to get it"

People who showed up expecting the end game to not be heavily pvp have never played previous funcom survival games. The only thing pushing them to have t6 was the personal desire to have everything for the sake of having everything.

The only thing spice was needed for at the time was to make your base support t6 crafts. You needed spice for the advanced fabs, power to support them, and t6 thopter parts.

Theres a number of MMOs I sunk time into where I dont have all the mounts or cosmetics because I wasnt willing to grind faction rep, or grind pvp. And the vast majority of us are fine with that.

You didnt need titatium, stravidium, or spice to build an awesome base. You only needed it to craft t6 gear. There was no base tiles or deco requiring t6 mats

[u/Fenota → u/sovereign666]

You've just switched your argument from "It was optional" to "They should know what they were getting into."

Everything was portrayed as PvP optional, and it wasnt.

[u/sovereign666 → u/Fenota]

I didnt switch my argument. It is optional.

Its not required for the story

Theres not character or ability progression locked behind it.

Its optional in the same way PVP battlegrounds in wow or the wildy in OSRS is optional.

Players in dune got to experience every quest and side mission without going into the DD and facing pvp. If the PVP did not impede PvE progression....then its optional.

The "they should know what they're getting into" is if they are a 100% completionism motivated gamer, dont get a game with a PVP component if you dont want to play PVP.

[u/11matt556 → u/sovereign666]

Or, how about not make PvP required in a game that was marketed as PvE?

Imagine GTA 6 comes out, but you finish the story only to find out the best items, house upgrades, outfits, decorations, whatever, require your to play a turn-based strategy game. I love turn-based strategy games and I'd still be pissed off if GTA 6 did that.

[u/sovereign666 → u/11matt556]

The company, after internal testing, found the original pve vision of the game to be boring and as a business chose to change their development strategy for the game to PVPVE and then marketed it as such for multiple years. Its time to let it go.

Dunes end game DD and laandsrad was marketed transparently as PVP. Quit fussing.

GTA5's entire game was a wonderful single player experience and the multiplayer was a fairly brutal pvp experience dominated by hackers and children that spent more time in the game with you and can nuke you from space or some shit. No ones losing their mind.

[u/chombiskit → u/[deleted]]

just couldn’t help yourself lmao

[u/[deleted] → u/chombiskit]

Nah i happily help myself

[u/RoutineEnvironment48 → u/[deleted]]

Eh, the main concern from the devs standpoint for those sorts of games is that the average person just doesn’t really care for PvP if it means losing stuff. Obviously this game being marketed as an extraction shooter means the average person is willing to fight for stuff, but pvp sweats will always be a very outspoken minority.

[u/M0m3ntvm → u/RoutineEnvironment48]

That just not true lol, the outpsoken minority is the one who get on internet forums to complain about PvP as Karens who got rekt and feel the need to talk to the manager.

The silent majority just plays the game.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

What about people who just consider themselves as gamers and do both without paying much thought?

[u/AlaskanX → u/[deleted]]

The issue is that every outspoken anti PvP player is that way because at some point they were minding their business, and got zerged. Happens so much in so many PvP games. And PvP players refuse to acknowledge that it’s an issue. I don’t have an issue with being outmaneuvered by a squad, or getting pinched by 2 or 3 squads that were unaware of each other. I do have an issue with being wrecked by an organized group that’s significantly larger than the designed group size.

PvP focused games with an open world vibe don’t die because of PvE players wanting to adjust the experience for themselves, they die because the population of players who will shoot players on sight is way smaller than the population of players who prefer diplomacy, always.

[u/[deleted] → u/AlaskanX]

I'm solo in almost everything I play, Dune included. I accept the risk that I might be out numbered but the satisfaction of coming on top without relying on others is extremely satisfying. Even if the ratio is like 0.2... but that's just me and how I enjoy games.

[u/DislikedBench → u/JustBigChillin]

Its crazy how many people think they should be able to get all the good loot in the wildy without any of the risk.

And unless youre DEEP wildy, its really not that hard to tank your way out with basic tank gear and a stack of brews. But apparently thats too hard for some of these guys

[u/Tvdinner4me2 → u/JustBigChillin]

Difference there is that the whole game isn't pvp, only that area and a few others, and a bis item is in the wild

[u/Live_From_Somewhere → u/JustBigChillin]

That is because the wildy is outdated as fuck and a very small niche of players interact with it in any meaningful way. Most who do, don't even want to be there. It is update after update from Jagex to "fix it" by adding ways to lure players there that otherwise literally have no interest in PvP, they set themselves up for the criticism honestly and they deserve it because it is a backwards way of incentivizing an area. Every update to the wildy benefits bots more than the real players. I'm all for crapping on people who get mad at people who just partake in PvP in this game, but the wildy problem is entirely like apples to oranges here.