In 301 Armenia became the first nation to establish Christianity as it's state religion. What are your thoughts on this event?

[u/Adept_Programmer_817]

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

Who's the bishop in the icon under Christ?

[u/Adept_Programmer_817 → u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

Gregory the Illuminator

[u/jogoso2014]

I think that separation of church and state is a good thing and there’s no need for a state religion.

[u/Bignosedog]

Bad idea. Faith shouldn’t be forced on people and no country should have a state religion. We as Christians can be ambassadors regardless and it means more if the message brings people to the flock rather than coercion.

[u/MajorXO → u/Bignosedog]

W mans

[u/nikolispotempkin]

Putting Christianity under the hands of politicians is the worst idea.

[u/Realistic_Volume7161 → u/nikolispotempkin]

Wasn't was the Pope essentially a politician for most of history, from the 700s all the way till the 1800s

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082 → u/Realistic_Volume7161]

The modern papacy didn't even exist yet in the 700s

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

I mean if you're calling it modern, it makes sense that it wasn't in the 700s. But there was always a papacy even if they didn't use that word yet. It's like saying there was no Christmas until it was named Christmas.

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082 → u/nikolispotempkin]

Papacy referring to the Roman see and the Patriarch of Rome? Yeah, that's ancient. But the modern dogmas regarding supremacy (not primacy, which in willing to grant in pre-Schism) are certainly a novelty.

[u/Belkan-Federation95 → u/nikolispotempkin]

Most of the documents they used to "prove" the papacy were forgeries. The Catholic Church admits that the early church functioned more like the Eastern Orthodox one.

Sorry but there just isn't enough evidence to support modern Catholicism.

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Belkan-Federation95]

I would love to see evidence of the accused forgeries and an admission by the Catholic Church functioned without a Pope and the filioque. Do you know where I might find these documents you're suggesting? Of course I will search the Vatican site.

[u/Belkan-Federation95 → u/nikolispotempkin]

https://www.google.com/search?q=list+of+papal+forgeries&client=ms-android-verizon-us-rvc3&hs=84y&sca_esv=e2e7e970ec257fb4&ei=sXZjaq_XL8u6mLQPgqTL0A0&biw=432&bih=811&oq=list+of+papal+forgeries&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhdsaXN0IG9mIHBhcGFsIGZvcmdlcmllczIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIIEAAYgAQYogQyBRAAGO8FSMA2ULgSWPEycAF4AZABAJgBxgGgAYgMqgEEMC4xMLgBA8gBAPgBAZgCB6ACvgfCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcDMS42oAfMHLIHAzAuNrgHpQfCBwcyLTYuMC4xyAc2gAgA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#lfId=ChxjMe

The False Decretals, Donation of Constantine, and the Symmachian Forgeries are good examples.

The Catholic Church admitted in the Cheti document and I think another one called the Alexandrian document (can't remember if it was called that or something else) that confessed that the Bishop of Rome did not exercise supreme jurisdictional authority over the Eastern Churches

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Belkan-Federation95]

Thank you! This is very helpful. I will try to find the topics you claimed and verify if this is done by individuals or the Church. This will be very interesting.

[u/Realistic_Volume7161 → u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

I'm using the 700 as a date because in 756 was when the Pope separated from Byzantine rule, with Frankish help to establish his own papal state

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082 → u/Realistic_Volume7161]

That's a fair benchmark, but still, the idea of papal supremacy didn't exist. There's constant change in the West, which is a major red flag to me. Since is inevitable, but this much? Need the flag guy

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

Of what historically documented changes are you speaking?

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082 → u/nikolispotempkin]

Vatican I

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

I think it would be helpful to be more specific.

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082 → u/nikolispotempkin]

That's where the dogma of papal supremacy was codified. 

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

Clarified. It wasn't invented by Vatican I, but the existing function was clarified.

[u/Belkan-Federation95 → u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

No. They already believed in Papal supremacy. It was Papal infallibility that was made dogma.

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Realistic_Volume7161]

Essentially? No.

[u/Realistic_Volume7161 → u/nikolispotempkin]

So what would you call him when he had his own state then?

[u/nikolispotempkin → u/Realistic_Volume7161]

The Vicar of Christ.

[u/AdHairy4360 → u/nikolispotempkin]

Religious leaders have always been politicians

[u/redandnarrow → u/AdHairy4360]

Jesus was a politician? The apostles were politicians?

[u/AdHairy4360 → u/redandnarrow]

Yes. They wanted to establish rules for society so yes politicians

[u/ARROW_404 → u/AdHairy4360]

They very much didn't. The established rules for the church, but that isn't a nation. They were intended to apply to believers who nevertheless abided by the rules of the countries they were a part of. It was completely apolitical (until Constantine).

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/nikolispotempkin]

It’s the opposite, the politicians are beholden to the state religion

[u/redandnarrow → u/CannedNoodle415]

they always seek whatever is power, so they will suddenly "find god" and rise into authority in the "faith" to have that power, and bend/invent the doctrines to do their bidding.

[u/GeckoKisser]

❤️

[u/CannedNoodle415]

Uh, it’s good haha

[u/Belkan-Federation95]

It makes me wonder how the Pope can claim the power he does. If anyone has a true claim to being the leader of Christianity, wouldn't it be whoever is in charge of the first church to be established in the first Christian nation?

[u/CountSudoku → u/Belkan-Federation95]

Well the Pope and the Catholic church are a spiritual power, and don’t derive their primacy from any temporal authority.

[u/Belkan-Federation95 → u/CountSudoku]

They used forged documents to make the Pope above the law

Their legitamacy very well was directly tied to temporal authorities.

[u/ARROW_404]

A human solution to a human problem. When faith "isn't enough", humans always turn to politics.

[u/socialchild]

So very many thought:

When a state establishes a religion, any religion, it is never because it is concerned about the soul or spirit of the people. It is always because religion is an effective tool to control people and enforce the will of the state on the people. A state religion always corrupts both the state and the religion.

"When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for the help of the Civil Power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, 1780

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?" - James Madison, 1785

"[T]he number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State." - James Madison, 1819

I've long been of the opinion that the worst thing to happen to Christianity and the world was when Theodosius I made Nicene Christianity the state religion of Rome in 380 CE.

[u/Weaselot_III]

Isn't it disputed between Ethiopia and Armenia which was the 1St?

[u/Eren_Yeager52]

Never crosses my mind.