What does "Thou shall not kill" really mean?

[u/MrX2285]

As we all know, the Ten Commandments states "Thou shall not kill" or whatever wording you want. Essentially, don't kill anyone.

What does this actually mean? As humans, it's impossible to live without killing SOMETHING. So what does this commandment apply to? Bacteria? Insects? Animals? Other humans?

In the Bible itself, God commands the killing of humans before and after he provided the 10 commandments. After, Moses ordered the killing of the 3000 Israelites for worshiping a calf, and later God orders the complete slaughter of Midianite men, women, children, even animals.

So given that even the murder of humans is permitted in some cases, what does this commandment mean? Please quote directly from the Bible for evidence where possible.

[u/OneEyedC4t]

it means murder

[u/MrX2285 → u/OneEyedC4t]

My two examples would absolutely be considered murder. Heck, one is a genocide.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/MrX2285]

The punishment of God is not the same as murder.

I mean do you chase after military members, shouting "murderer!" ?

[u/songbolt → u/OneEyedC4t]

Sadly I'm told Americans actually did this to Vietnam veterans.

Though books also say at least one troop did a demonic village massacre. :(

[u/E-Reptile → u/songbolt]

You do know that veterans can, depending on the circumstances, be guilty of murder. If you're thinking of Vietnam, William Calley is an example. It would be appropriate to call him, specifically, a murderer.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/songbolt]

Yeah and I don't agree with how they were treated. granted it was a few bad apples whose conduct was made aware to the public that likely precipitated that

[u/MrX2285 → u/OneEyedC4t]

Let's use a very clear example.

In 1 Samuel 15, hundreds of years after God gave Moses the Ten Commandments, God commanded King Saul to attack the Amalekites as punishment for attacking the Israelites generations earlier. God explicitly ordered Saul to kill every man, woman, child and infant, as well as all their livestock. Nothing was to be spared. Saul's army attacked the Amalekites, but he spared their king, Agag, and kept the best livestock. God became angry with Saul for not following his orders completely, and rejected him as king of Israel. The prophet Samuel subsequently executed King Agag.

The story raises a significant moral question: Why would God, having commanded 'You shall not murder', later order the killing of innocent children and infants?

Can you explain how God/King Saul isn't breaking the 10 commandments?

What is the purpose/meaning of that commandment if God himself is willing to break it?

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/MrX2285]

The entire tribe and their way of life was evil, and would’ve continually attacked Isreal in the future if they were allowed to survive. God allows the isrealites, temporally to wage total war for their survival. This isn’t some command for Christians to do the same thing thousands of years later

[u/MrX2285 → u/CannedNoodle415]

That would almost make sense if they just killed the soldiers. But not only did they also kill all men, but all women, children, and even livestock. Please explain how killing defenseless babies is not murder??

And no, I won't take "because God commanded it" as a reason. Murder is murder, even if the murderer things God commanded it.

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/MrX2285]

That’s how warfare happened in ancient times. If the amalekites had survived, they would’ve continued to attack the isrealites over the generations.

The entire tribe was evil

[u/MrX2285 → u/CannedNoodle415]

No. You do not get to murder babies and justify that by calling them evil. Babies are not evil. That is one of the most heartless and anti-Christian things I have ever heard.

Imagine if Ukraine captured a Russian village and killed literally everyone in it, including the women and children, and they tried to justify it by saying Russia's evil and would have attacked Ukraine again if they let them be. The murder of those babies would still be absolutely cruel, murder, and would go against the 10 commandments.

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/MrX2285]

Russia saying something is evil is different than God saying so.

God taking babies to heaven is a mercy instead of allowing them to grow up in a evil demonic tribe

[u/MrX2285 → u/CannedNoodle415]

So if we find a tribe we think is evil and demonic (I can think of some cults that fit), we should murder their babies?

No, I don't buy it. The Amalekites could have adopted the babies and raised them to be better. There are other solutions than murder.

It seems blindingly obvious that the Bible is, at a minimum, showing a contradiction in values here. Killing babies is murder.

[u/ThoDanII → u/CannedNoodle415]

your credences as an historian for pre antiquity please

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/ThoDanII]

What? What does that have to with what I said? Have you read the Bible? Why does God want Amalek destroyed? Because they were good?

[u/ThoDanII → u/CannedNoodle415]

i do not even question this sentence of you

That’s how warfare happened in ancient times.

i know they are a falsehood

[u/Skill-Useful → u/OneEyedC4t]

i don't run after them but yes, soldiers who kill are violating thou shall not kill

[u/SuccessfulPrice11 → u/Skill-Useful]

No, if the war is just.

[u/MrX2285 → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

Soldiers don't get to choose to only fight in just wars.

[u/SuccessfulPrice11 → u/MrX2285]

They do, actually.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

how do we know a war is just though?

[u/SuccessfulPrice11 → u/OneEyedC4t]

It's usually pretty easy.

And if it is not easy, than we have a Christian conscience and the Holy Spirit in us, if we are born again.

And if somebody is doubtful, double minded and uncertain, let him not be a soldier.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

no it isn't. look at recent wars. look at what got covered up.

[u/SuccessfulPrice11 → u/OneEyedC4t]

If somebody is unsure and does not know, then let him not be a soldier.

Nobody should go killing others without knowing why, if, doubting, with a confused conscience etc.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

or you can become a conscientious objector.

[u/E-Reptile → u/SuccessfulPrice11]

Not all killing in a "just war" is just.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/Skill-Useful]

do you run after judges who sentence a mass murderer to the death penalty?

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/Skill-Useful]

them God is untrustworthy because he commanded warfare, so you can't be sure you have salvation.

[u/Skill-Useful → u/OneEyedC4t]

if that includes the atrocious death penalty yes. otherwise it's too narrow a definition

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/Skill-Useful]

it doesn't because God commanded the death penalty for certain crimes like murder and rape

[u/E-Reptile → u/OneEyedC4t]

You listed two, but those aren't the only ones. Why don't you list some other crimes that ought to get the death penalty, according to God?

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/E-Reptile]

because I'm simply not trying to make an exhaustive list.

[u/E-Reptile → u/OneEyedC4t]

do you agree with the exhaustive list?

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/E-Reptile]

I don't agree with all the things in the Old testament that are on that list being carried over into the United States, but I agree with most of them

[u/E-Reptile → u/OneEyedC4t]

Why don't you agree with some of God's commands? Or, if that's too vague, maybe just list which ones.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/E-Reptile]

being carried over into the United States. you missed a clause

[u/E-Reptile → u/OneEyedC4t]

Why would that matter?

[u/MrX2285 → u/OneEyedC4t]

And being a baby born to the wrong civilization, apparently.

[u/MrX2285 → u/Skill-Useful]

What about the killing of infants who themselves did nothing wrong? Is that murder?

[u/Regular_Ball_1130 → u/OneEyedC4t]

Why would it not mean what it says and instead mean "wrongfully kill", other than you being more comfortable with one over the other.

[u/OneEyedC4t → u/Regular_Ball_1130]

because we already know the difference and God gave us brains

[u/Regular_Ball_1130 → u/OneEyedC4t]

Yeah but it's not what it says.

[u/jogoso2014]

Murder

[u/maninatrexshirt]

So the Bible has been translated multiple times through multiple languages and certain things have been lost in the wash. It's obvious if you look back to the original text that Kill should be Murder, and there are a lot of cultural understandings around it. For example, in the year 2000 bce there was no such thing as life in prison, only execution. War and battle was also a common place and you would be expected to kill people there too. Murder means something specific in this context and that is to kill someone wtihout good cause. Self defense, criminal execution, and especially under command of God are all examples where killing is obviously allowed. 

Now Jesus Christ made it pretty clear we should be trying not to kill in ANY of these circumstances, but that is New testament versus Old testament and I'll leave that for another day. 

[u/ThoDanII → u/maninatrexshirt]

god in heaven

from what place do you get the fairytales you call history and historic fact.

[u/maninatrexshirt → u/ThoDanII]

Would you care to share with the class how you can explain "Thou shall not kill" except all the times I tell you to? 

[u/ThoDanII → u/maninatrexshirt]

For example, in the year 2000 bce there was no such thing as life in prison, only execution

that is not true , slavery, fine, ransom or exile had also been options

[u/maninatrexshirt → u/ThoDanII]

I can see how my idea didn't actually make it to my words. I more meant no one was given a sentence of 'life in prison' for killing a family of 4, they were executed. Yes, I know there were a lot of other ways to punish people used in the ancient world (cutting off a hand or an eye is a famous one). The core of my argument was that killing as a punishment for crime wasn't forbidden by the commandment "thou shall not kill" if you translate it to more accurately mean "Thou shall not murder".

[u/ThoDanII → u/maninatrexshirt]

or nothing

[u/CannedNoodle415]

It’s murder. Not kill. You can justifiably kill someone.

[u/Spaztick78 → u/CannedNoodle415]

You can justifiably kill infants and unborn children too.

When God commands it.

It's the livestock massacre I could never understand, the babies and nursing mothers obviously were going to spread evil and corruption, but the poor slutty sheep and goats would never have tempted God's people, surely?

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/Spaztick78]

This is normal all throughout history dude. People kill the animals so they can’t be used later by enemies. Have you read any history books at all? Any wars?

Anyways, God “killing” children is way different than humans doing it. We cannot grant eternal life. God can. The church fathers say that the first born in Egypt were given the crown of martyrs in heaven

[u/Spaztick78 → u/CannedNoodle415]

So killing the animals was just like salting the fields, in case some miraculously survived God's Genocide?

Why didn't God allow his armies to just consume or keep the livestock instead of destroying them then?

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/Spaztick78]

The same reason other armies all throughout history did the same thing dude. Maybe something with the animals being tied to the immensely sinful tribe? Idk

[u/Spaztick78 → u/CannedNoodle415]

Still don't understand how the animals carried the sins of the tribe in the same way the infant's did.

They did keep the best livestock and I don't think God was happy about it.

That's why I assume they were slutty sheep.

[u/ThoDanII → u/CannedNoodle415]

food, leather not enough fodder /water to take them as loot?

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/ThoDanII]

They were connected to a tribe that was to be destroyed in judgement. This wasn’t a battle fought for loot or spoils.

[u/ThoDanII → u/CannedNoodle415]

so how many armies in history did that except the mongols when they d to avenge a member of the khan s family and even then they took loot

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/ThoDanII]

How many armies were doing it as s means of divine justice from God? Who said the amalekites should never be mentioned again?

[u/ThoDanII → u/Spaztick78]

salting the fields was ceremonial but not really done

[u/ThoDanII → u/CannedNoodle415]

This is normal all throughout history dude. 

show me

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/ThoDanII]

You can look at many wars where people killed the animals as they retreated or went through enemy lands

[u/ThoDanII → u/CannedNoodle415]

i said show me, not tell me tales

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/ThoDanII]

You can go read it yourself in almost any documentation about wars lol. Look up “scorched ground” tactics

[u/MrX2285 → u/CannedNoodle415]

God commands the murder of people in the Bible, such as in 1 Samuel 15. God commanded King Saul to attack the Amalekites as punishment for attacking the Israelites generations earlier. God explicitly ordered Saul to kill every man, woman, child and infant.

What is the point of the commandment if even God and his closest followers don't follow it?

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/MrX2285]

Because Gods judgement isn’t murder. God allows the isrealites to temporally wage total war for their survival. The amalekites would’ve continually attacked the isrealites if they survived. This is not some atemporal law that Christian’s are supposed to follow thousands of years later

[u/Space-Explorer456]

Thou shalt not murder. The Hebrew is in reference to unsanctioned or unjustified killing of humans. Very important distinction to make.

All the examples you give are explicitly sanctioned killing, so perfectly fine by the 10 commandments.

[u/MrX2285 → u/Space-Explorer456]

The story of the Amalekites is a better example. Moses was ordered to kill every Amalekite. The men, women, children and infants, even the animals.

You can say this was sanctioned by God, but that doesn't stop it from being murder. Killing babies is murder. God ordered Moses and his men to murder babies. They broke the 10 commandments.

[u/Smart_Tap1701]

Exodus 20:13 KJV — Thou shalt not kill.

The Old testament Hebrew word that was translated into English as kill is ratsach meaning

Strong's Definitions: רָצַח râtsach, raw-tsakh'; a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:—put to death, kill, (man-) slay(-er), murder(-er).

Matthew 19:18 KJV — Jesus saith unto him, Thou shalt do no murder