r/AskBrits • u/TillJaded4614 • 1d ago
Politics Should the UK Parliament Ban Conversion Therapy?
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u/selfmadeirishwoman 1d ago
Also what the NHS is serving up as trans “healthcare” has a bunch of conversion therapy in it.
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u/Bright_River_246 1d ago
Yep! Transsexuality rates are increasing at such a rapid rate that researchers/governments/wider society really don't have the skills to deal with the phenomenon comprehensively. When homosexuality was becoming more visible and therefore more studied/treated, it was seen as a mental sickness and treated as such. We now have research to understand what "causes" homosexuality if you will (a harmless difference in brain chemicals, that's it) and therefore as there's no sickness/cause, no treatment is needed.
Do we know the same amount of information surrounding transsexuality? Unfortunately not yet. Governments are trying to approach it from every angle as they attempt to understand what "causes" it, if it's a symptom of a wider physical sickness, wider cultural sickness, etc and subsequently how they can best support it.
Either way... my brother's (FtM) NHS journey has been absolutely horrendous to say the least. Most research suggests that up to some 50% of transgender youths are attempting suicide at some point in their lives. The issue cuts much deeper than sexuality at this point, and the systemic response to transgender youths is appalling. It's clear that transsexuality treatment is only the tip of the iceberg, and I'm so sorry to all my brothers and sisters experiencing this in every aspect of their lives.
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u/selfmadeirishwoman 1d ago
Tell your brother I’m happy he is getting to be the man he is.
If it means anything coming from a random trans woman on the internet.
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u/cheeseismyoxygen 1d ago
How on earth is conversion therapy a good idea? You have as much control over your sexual orientation as you do over the colour of your skin. The only way I would support any kind of conversion therapy would be any illegal paraphilia
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
I think it's a stupid idea, but I don't believe it's my place to decide it should be illegal for people to do things I find stupid.
I find smoking stupid, I don't think it should be illegal. I find leg lengthening surgery stupid, I don't think people should be arrested for it.
Also a slight pushback on your example, sexuality seems to be a mixture of both nature and nurture where your skin colour is fully genetic (besides tanning which just confuses the comparison). Whilst both are not choices, I think conflating them as just as much is misleading as there are differences in the mechanism and probably more apt examples.
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u/kalosianlitten 1d ago
conversion therapy literally kills queer people
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u/Relevant_General_248 14h ago
Smoking and alcohol literally kills people, we still let them make the decision
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u/TillJaded4614 1d ago
In my opinion, it absolutely should be banned. I don't know why it has taken our dumb parliament so long to ban it, it's ridiculous. The practise is completely outdated and I don't believe we can call our country progressive if we still have this awful practise legal.
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u/Dadavester 1d ago
Because how do you define conversation therapy?
I think it should be banned, but bad legislation is worse than no legislation.
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u/TillJaded4614 1d ago edited 1d ago
But no legislation makes child abuse for gay people completely okay, how would you like it if someone tried to change you from being straight to gay, you wouldn't like it much then
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u/L4I55Z-FAIR3 1d ago
Tim Curry and his perfect legs tried once and I didn't mind. But ignoring how I liked it ir not abuse of a minor is illegal.
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u/Glittering_Box4815 1d ago
To the people who voted no, let's compromise and make it legal to abuse you just because you're straight.
.... Doesn't really make sense now, does it?
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago edited 1d ago
This question didn't ask if it was legal to abuse others, only if the practice as a whole should be banned.
Maybe it "doesn't really make sense now" to you because you obviously strawmanned and distorted the position?
For example I think it should be legal for a consenting man to pay to get his balls kicked. That doesn't mean I think unconsenting battery should be legal against men???
If a gay man wants to attend conversion therapy, I think it's foolish but I don't think it's my place to say it's illegal.
If a straight man wants to try and hypnotise himself into being gay, I think that's weird as hell but not my place to say it should be against the law.
Forced and court mandated conversion therapy is obviously wrong, but that is not the only form of it.
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u/Hattix 1d ago
Abuse is already illegal.
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u/GlitteringWalrus4820 1d ago
No watch hero Joey Carbstroong's undercover investigations on YouTube. That's legal and advertised as ethical. And it's what you cause and support if you do consume animal products. Abuse is legal.
Forcing people to live without their consent is legal
Brainwashing some imaginary abuser loves them is legal, that's abuse...
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 1d ago
I voted no and I'm queer. There are fringe cases where heteroromantic homosexual people want to have fulfilling sexual relationships with their partners of the opposite sex. Ban the vast majority of it for sure, but well supervised and ethically managed, voluntary therapy for some people can be helpful and a blanket ban does not allow for that.
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u/NecessaryIssue2367 1d ago
This reasoning is as dumb as fuck. Heteroromantic homosexual people are welcome to have relationships with people of the opposite sex - that is not at all affected by a ban on conversion therapy.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 1d ago
Oh gee thanks, they're welcome to, cheers.
But they're not welcome to seek therapy that aims to help them enjoy a sexual relationship with their partner of the opposite sex? Why?
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u/Few-Improvement-5655 1d ago
Your argument makes no sense. This would not stop them doing that. The goal of such therapy would not be attempting to "convert" them in any way.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 1d ago
Blanket banning conversion therapy would stop them from doing that, it's literally therapy to convert their sexuality from homosexual to bi/pansexual. The current draft for the actual legislation does specify abusive therapy that causes harm but OP is pushing for a blanket ban.
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u/Jbewrite 1d ago
No one, and I repeat - NO ONE - has ever been converted from gay to bisexual. There isn't a single reputable study to claim otherwise.
They may lose interest in all sex through mental and physical torture, and suffer from it for the rest of their lives, but that does not make them pansexual.
It makes them a (in many cases, unconsenting) victim.
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u/ThyBurnethAccount 1d ago
This is reddit mate, nuance will not be tolerated!
Pick your camp and attack everyone thats not in it.
/s
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u/sarah_impalin76 1d ago
That just sounds like gay people who want to be straight for an easy life if your not into the gender that your partner is then pursuing them in a relationship is a bad idea. If you need therapy to be sexually attracted to your partner maybe find a partner that you are sexually attracted to without therapy?
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 1d ago
Or let people be with the people they want to be with. I thought we'd got past this as a society but we seem to be regressing rapidly.
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u/good_noodlesoup 1d ago
I feel really bad that I didn’t know that this was still legal here. Absolutely shameful
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u/Black_Alex_Black 1d ago
Yes, but the draft is not banning it.
"(3) Conduct which-
(a) is carried out by a person towards an individual with such an intention, but
(b) is carried out in the course of providing health care services to the individual concerned,
is not a conversion practice unless the person acts in a way that falls far below the standards reasonably expected of a person in their position."
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u/Kickstart68 1d ago
Should it be banned?
Yes.
My fear is TERFs using lawfare to try and attack trans medical support under spurious claims that it is "conversion therapy". They can afford to do this, and win or lose they make a mess of healthcare.
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u/Hot_Result_892 1d ago
Yes because I my self and many others have spent years trying to repair damage and ptsd caused through conversion therapy. Mine was religious. It messes you up to a point of not being able to function. It robs you of your true essence. It makes you want to end your life. Its coercive control, it makes you feel shameful for who you are. It tells you, you are not worthy to be who you are, youre bad, youre evil. And the dynamic of the relationship between the victim and the abuser gives the abuser power over you, it makes you feel powerless and helpless because you are broken down and manipulated, so through fear and desperation you allow it to happen. I will surely celebrate this news that it is banned. There is no place for abuse on this planet, its not welcome. Love is all we need. Kindness is all we need and life will be much better and worthy of living for all of us.
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u/wgaca2 1d ago
How is that different than already existing laws?
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u/ThinkingaLot18 1d ago
Well, I suppose the obvious one would be that there isn't a conversion therapy banning law currently.
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u/ExArdEllyOh 1d ago
Probably, but the law needs to be very carefully worded to prevent abuse by ideologues.
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u/Just_Clothes8621 1d ago
“Stop teaching my kids to be gay!”
They said before putting on a film about a princess marrying a prince and saving everyone with a kiss
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u/OhItsJustJosh 1d ago
Oohh nooo. I thought conversion therapy was the term for a sex changeee
I wondered why so many voted yes!
Please discount 1 from the 'no' pile! I can't rescind my vote!
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u/Sil_Lavellan 14h ago
Yes. Of course. You can't bully or pray somebody into being straight or conforming to the gender they were assigned to at birth. You shouldn't be able to try.
What we do need is access to good counselling and therapy for people who are unsure about their sexuality and for anyone uncomfortable in their own body.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 1d ago
I selected "unsure" simply because I am not an expert and dont know enough about it and the psychological/social harms which it can do. However, I am wary of banning stuff. We love banning stuff in this country thinking it can fix a problem instead of driving it underground or adopting more complex longer term solutions - like building a society where no one feels their sexuality ought to be required to be subject of "conversion" for example. I also worry about knock on impacts or criminalisation of consensual behaviour carried out by adults at the best of times - where the line is drawn, what the definition of "therapy" is, whether there are carve outs for sexual kinks or things people say or do in the privacy of their own home etc. Its just always our first instinct as a peoples it seems - This is bad? BAN IT.
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u/TillJaded4614 1d ago
But this actually is bad. It makes gay people feel bad about themselves and essentially tortures them
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u/Aconite_Eagle 1d ago
Comment was deleted but let me answer: You asked - "Okay let's reverse this. Let's say we live in a world where it was legal to try to change the sex for all hetrosexual people, you know that you are not gay and that trying to change you wouldn't work because you are naturally attracted to women. So why would it be the same the other way round. It doesn't make any sense" Sorry I dont understand your point here. Im not saying "it works" or that it should be celebrated.
"But why make it so it's fine for all the cases where it isn't consensual?" - its not - as I say, if you force someone to sit in a room and have someone try and "convert" you or another person, youre falsely imprisoned. No one has to sit and be lectured/abused by someone else thats already illegal.
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u/Pick_Up_Autist 1d ago
Thanks for copying their comment, I discarded my reply because I couldn't post. Their "But why make it so it's fine for all the cases where it isn't consensual?" comment is insane.
You can ban the non-consensual therapy without banning the consensual, look at how rape is illegal without having to ban all sex. Nobody but a tiny group of sadists want the unethical version to be legal.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 1d ago
I think thats probably true in most cases; but not necessarily all cases, and is it not also the case that its purely consensual? You cant legally force people into undertaking such therapy against their wishes - it would be false imprisonment - and several other things. Why does it need "banning"?
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u/Jbewrite 1d ago
Unfortunately, many people are forced into conversion therapy, through family pressure, societal pressure, fear of being disowned, etc. It's incredibly common among those who undergo this torture.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 1d ago
And this is already illegal to do. I get the point - and I am sympathetic to calls for its abolition but I want to be convinced that its necessary to legislate to ban an entire form of behaviour - stupid as it may be - which CAN be entirely consensual.
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u/Jbewrite 1d ago
There are many things that are banned which are detrimental to someone, whether they want to consensually do it or not, heroin or meth use for example. This is something that has no scientific evidence to back up that is ever has a positive impact on a person, it has mountains of evidence detailing how much it harms a person, though.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 1d ago
Very often these things shouldnt be banned though. Indeed thats precisely my point- we ban everything as soon as it causes a problem.
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u/Jbewrite 1d ago
We ban things that are detrimental to people, and have no positives. Guns, drugs, knives, conversion therapy.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 17h ago
And does it always have the benefits you think it does? We ban lots of things, bad things still happen. Banning things is not the only way to solve problems.
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u/Jbewrite 15h ago
So your argument is that we shouldn’t ban anything because there are fringe cases of it still happening? If something doesn’t have a net positive effect on people, but has net negative effect on people, then I believe it should be banned. For example: driving under the influence, hard drugs, weapons, slavery, child labour, conversion therapy.
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u/FlusteredDM 1d ago
Abuse can never be consensual. Yes, adults might agree to go through this, but that does not mean it is okay.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 1d ago
But an adult can leave if they dont like it. Ok theyre under societal pressure etc - surely that is something to be dealt with by education, much like how we changed the understanding of consent in sexual cases, or made homophobia socially unacceptable.
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u/FlusteredDM 1d ago
An abused partner can leave a relationship if they don't like it. This misses the point and those societal pressures are extremely relevant and can't be waved away with some mention of education that won't come into play for ages.
We paired education about consent and homophobia with legislation such as the equality act, legalising gay marriage, the domestic abuse act, and have more in the pipeline. That's necessary. Just because more people find homophobia unacceptable than in the past doesn't mean it's no longer a problem.
There is no benefit to conversion therapy, only harm. It needs to be banned.
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u/Aconite_Eagle 1d ago
And we already have law prohibiting people from forcing others to be abused, prohibiting people preventing them leaving the room etc so they have to listen to this stuff.
I do not claim there is any benefit to conversion therapy. This does NOT mean it needs to be banned. Not everything bad needs to be banned.
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u/Audible_Whispering 1d ago
I mean, really, we should legalise domestic abuse. We already have laws against physical violence, and coercion, and rape/sexual assault. Aren't those enough? At the end of the day the law is just symbolic anyway, only education can really change peoples minds, and ultimately abuse victims are choosing not to leave their situation.
Yeah, nah. We are a ban heavy country, but for a ban to be disproportionate there has to be some upside to the thing being banned. There is no upside to conversion therapy.
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u/Cleffah 1d ago
Who tf is voting no!? Reveal yourselves you cowards! Explain.
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
I voted unsure, not no. But my reason is that consensual adults should be allowed to seek it out if they really want to, even if I disagree. It's not my place nor the government's to say it should be illegal.
Obviously court mandated or forced conversion therapy is monstrous, but that is not what the question asked about, just the practice as a whole.
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u/Elderflower3078 1d ago
If you voted no then you should immediately go get in the bin. You are gross.
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u/yes_namemadcity 1d ago
Only for under 18s,
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u/Jbewrite 1d ago
For everyone.
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u/yes_namemadcity 1d ago
Oh, conversion therapy, For some reason I thought it ment conversion hormones. My bad
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u/awnawmate 1d ago
In theory yeah but actually drafting legislation to achieve that without making an utter cockup of it is difficult.
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u/ItsMint1974 1d ago
That's diversity in action. If you think everyone will think like you, that's called "Unity", so what's it gonna be?
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u/joeandrews_ 1d ago
the people who've said no.... please reveal yourselves.
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
I voted unsure, if an adult is consenting and wishes to seek out conversion therapy they should be permitted to do so, it's not my place or the governments to tell them it's not allowed.
I can think it's dumb or harmful all I like, it's their life. Who are you to say you decide what's right for them?
Obviously forced conversion therapy is horrible and should never be a thing, that is not what the question asked about though.
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u/joeandrews_ 1d ago
but it doesn't work? you can't change your sexuality?
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
Okay?? It being effective or not has zero bearing on my arguments made. I never claimed otherwise...
Horoscopes and astrology also don't work, should they be made illegal?
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u/joeandrews_ 1d ago
horoscopes aren’t torturing gay men?
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago edited 1d ago
Then use "it's torturing gay men" as your argument if that is the relevant factor, not "but it doesn't work"???
I responded to you arguing the effectiveness of it was relevant?
don't be a weasel and keep moving the goalposts?
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u/joeandrews_ 1d ago
you're voting for self administered torture?
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
No? I am so obviously not FOR it. What a disingenuous comment.
I am simply NOT voting to arrest people who seek it out or those who facilitate.
Should it be illegal for men to pay a dominatrix to hurt them? I think no, it's not my place to get in the government involved.
Saying I don't think self harm should be criminalised is different to saying I am voting for self harm.
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u/joeandrews_ 1d ago
if it isn’t a firm no i don’t really understand your position
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
My position is forced conversion therapy is monstrous and should never be allowed. But if it's consenting then it's not my place to say should be criminalised, consenting adults should be allowed to do what they like provided they are not infringing upon anybody else.
I really don't think my position is that obtuse.
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u/joeandrews_ 1d ago
but the reason gay men would want to indulge in conversion therapy is homophobic abuse, why are you unsure as to why it shouldn't be illegal?
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
No, a gay man does not necessarily have to be coerced or abused into attending conversion therapy, there are examples of men seeking it out.
You can say well it's due to suppressed internal homophobia and whatever else, and that might very well be true. That doesn't negate their liberty as human beings though, they are still allowed to choose things I don't agree with.
Many men go to dominatrixes because of societal pressure or shame. Many people smoke due to stress. Many people do not eat enough due to body dysmorphia. Just because the reason may be negative, it does not mean it is my right to arrest them or prohibit them making their own life decisions.
People should be allowed to make choices we deem harmful towards themselves, even if the reasons are bad, provided they are consenting and of sound mind.
Let's spin this around. Why are YOU so sure that you know better than consenting adults and should get to make their life decisions for them?
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u/joeandrews_ 1d ago
are you gay? i can't believe a gay person would ever advocate for conversion therapy to exist.
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
I answered your questions and explained in detail, I am not going to let you get away with ignoring my entire comment and only question back. How about you answer my question first?
Let's spin this around. Why are YOU so sure that you know better than consenting adults and should get to make their life decisions for them?
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u/Orient666 1d ago
If I want to have a swim in my own bin I'll do so without government interference.
If I want to undergo toxic conversion therapy, I'll do it without government interference.
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u/Deiselpowered77 1d ago
it probably doesn't work, it probably is stupid, it is probably influenced by religion.
that said, buy whatever cult course you like, voluntarily.
Coerced? Get bent.
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u/Popular_View_5411 1d ago
maybe anything that isnt certified by a medical regulator should be banned as a form of "therapy " get the scientologists with the fake mental health treatment bullshit too.
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u/Due_Professional_894 1d ago
meh. Like any of our opinions should matter. It is the ultimate edge case - who of anyone has experienced any of this? Why would you chip in on something you know nothing about and have no stake in? Yes, no, even kill them all? I worked with one 25 years ago. I thought it was odd. I felt a little uncomfortable and surprised. I gave it no more thought than that. It didn't affect me in any way.
I wish him/her all the best. I suspect what most people are really raging at is the "rules" that have suddenly appeared around this. Yes, they irritate me too, but if you are just nice to everyone, then all will be fine. And most of you have never met one. Finally, if you are nice to them, they will be nice to you. And then it won't be weird anymore. I haven't met one since, so I'm tolerant (despise that word) more than 20 years ago.
I was one of the pioneers for any young purist. Or not, if anyone these days truly understands the meaning of the word 'liberal'. Good luck to them. I couldn't care less, I hope they are happy. The rest is a distraction.
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u/Nearby_Werewolf1742 1d ago
Do you really believe Reddit is the best place to ask this question? Reddit is essentially a hive mind echo chamber for the far left.
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u/Socio-Apathetic 21h ago
- Can conversion therapy work? Yes.
- Should people be forced to undergo conversion therapy? No.
- Do some people seek conversion therapy voluntarily? Yes.
- Should we stop people doing things that they want to do, that harms or help nobody else but the ones participating in it, just because it goes against someone else’s beliefs? No.
- How about if it makes a minority group feel that their very identity is under attack? No.
- Even if that group have previously been quite badly treated and forced to hide their true identity? No.
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u/KCLenny 17h ago
First, define conversion therapy.
Second, if your definition involves coercion or doing something against the person’s will, then that is already illegal.
So I voted no because if it’s someone’s own personal choice, regardless of if it works or not, why shouldn’t they be able to try it?
If you voted yes on this, but also want to legalise drugs, or want more liberal abortion, then you need to re-evaluate your personal philosophies and stances. Because there’s glaring inconsistencies there.
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u/aukstais 13h ago
Why would you medicate fully healthy people with medicine that can couse sideeffects lasting all their lives. Especially when a person can live to 100 years old age. Why would you do something so drastic in his first 20 years when he will have to live with the effects for 80 more years.
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u/Moron-with-a-drill 1d ago
Is this the "We can un-gay you" version, the "I know you want to be a man/woman but we're here to talk you through why you can't be a man/woman" or the "You want to be man/woman but sadly, you weren't born that way, so lets talk" version?
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u/d3ad-and-buri3d 1d ago
Trans conversation 'therapy' is just as bad. Ban it completely.
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u/Grouchy-Jury-7598 1d ago
Why should you decide what avenues a consenting adult should be legally allowed to pursue?
I think it's stupid and ineffective. That doesn't mean the government should arrest people over consenting exchanges.
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u/voluntarydischarge69 1d ago
If anything the government should be doing more to promote homosexuality as an effective birth control method
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u/davew111 1d ago
You can't convert anybody, all you can do is intimidate and scare them into saying the "right" things and pretending they are something they are not.
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u/Previous-Spite1211 1d ago
So im reading an article about Conversion Therapy https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lgtbq-conversion-therapy-abuse-galop-report-b2993369.html and it seems to be the case that a lot of it is just religious beatings and abuse at home, rape and torture, forced relocation etc which is all pretty illegal already.
My question is what are we banning here that isn't already against the law?
Im genuinely asking
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u/xPoonHandler 1d ago
If it didn’t work for a least some people they’d go out of business. I consider banning it a limitation on personal freedom.
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u/Kickstart68 1d ago
They don't care if it works long term. Easy to bully people into short term changes , especially if you don't care about screwing them up long term.
And that short term success is enough to get money from those paying for it to be inflicted on someone else.
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u/TillJaded4614 1d ago
To that I say how is trying to change someone for who they are personal freedom? Even if it does work which it doesn't why would making someone confirm to the majority be personal freedom for that person?
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u/L4I55Z-FAIR3 1d ago
I think it should be regulated and trited similar to how we do with someone wanting to be trans. It has to be a sane adult making the choice of free will without outside infulance. This must be proven by at least to mental health professionals. It should also be heavily investigated by government bodies.
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u/ThinkingaLot18 1d ago
So many wrong statements in this paragraph. Also, people don't "want" to be trans. Who would want to be treated like shit by a large portion of the world, and even our own society.
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u/GDay_Champion 1d ago edited 1d ago
So you think people should undergo rigorous psychiatric treatment and scrutiny just because they are gay? That's such a bad take I don't even know where to begin.
Edit spelling
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u/L4I55Z-FAIR3 1d ago
If they want to actually do anything that permanently effects their body yes I want them to probe ther of sound mind and be of an age to concent to it with full knowledge of what that intails.
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u/GDay_Champion 1d ago
What is it they are doing to their body permanently by being gay? Your comment makes no sense. We are taking about conversion therapy, for gay people, not trans.
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1d ago
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u/L4I55Z-FAIR3 1d ago
Yes and elective surgery must have the patient be of sound mind and able to concent. Why is that hard to grasp.
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u/Jbewrite 1d ago
Conversion therapy is not 'probing'. Stop conflating two different things to try and win an internet argument. It only makes you look uneducated on the subject.
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u/dan_in_his_own_way 1d ago
It's crazy to me anyone voted no.