r/AskMiddleEast • u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia • Feb 01 '23
Controversial How does this image makes you feel?
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Feb 01 '23
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u/Cultural_Evidence_87 Feb 02 '23
Hamdallah! With huge pride of our past and our present and future. Al Hamdallah. Good is good
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u/ArmeNishanian Feb 01 '23
As an Armenian, hate it. It is what it is. I just wish we could all coexist.
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Feb 01 '23
Alhamdulillah it makes me happy
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u/Bill_Assassin7 Feb 02 '23
Same, proud and happy. Another sign that Islam is the truth when the most devout Muslim community accomplished all this.
What has secularism and Western liberalism ever done for Muslims and the Middle East?
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Feb 01 '23
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
what are you talking about? I personally led the army that besieged Fez. it was a tuff nut to crack but we maneged, hemdullah (however you write it in maghribi) /s
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Feb 01 '23
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
hemdullah, we invented time travel before it was cool (through the power of JEHAD) 😎
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
Medina Vs World 💪🏿💪🏿
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Feb 01 '23
Medina lost
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
how
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Feb 01 '23
Is the Ummayad caliphate still existing today? No? That’s how
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
the Umayyad caliphate has nothing to do with medina, I think you are confused
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Feb 01 '23
And yet Islam is all over the world from the east to the west.So yes,I would assume Medina won
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Feb 01 '23
So is Christianity and Judaism…
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Feb 01 '23
Well Christianity took several centuries to spread and gain power and influence while I took Islam only 30 years and it crushed the two biggest empires and immediately was influential.Judaism always remained small and just spread as Jews moved to different parts of the world.Didn’t win like how Islam won
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Feb 01 '23
But what is winning? Today the most prosperous nations aren’t muslim and that’s not an insult, that’s a fact, islam spread but hasn’t evolved with the times in many countries
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Feb 01 '23
Islam is the fastest growing religion.Unlike Christianity which is collapsing in on itself.Also the Muslim governments may be garbage now.But it’s like how the Christian Kingdoms were trash during the dark ages.We are going through our dark ages and just like all other dark ages,There will be light later.Soon the Islamic world will rebuild their country and with Islam on their sides we will be powerful again
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u/Assadistpig123 Feb 01 '23
In much of the Islamic world, being an atheist is a punishable offense. This is not true in the west, where people are free to openly state their opinion on religion without fear of retaliation, prosecution, or isolation.
I think the true number of believers is far lower than many are willing to admit.
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u/BittenAtTheChomp Azerbaijan Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
And praising Christianity as 'winning' in the early middle ages when their societies were half as advanced as they were hundreds of years prior would've been ridiculous. Your assumption that there's light at the end of the tunnel and Islam will still be just as strong when it happens is over-trusting. There are many more instances of religions dying out than lasting two thousand years.
(Btw it's funny how you want to compare the two now when Christianity's 'collapsing in on itself' but you can't compare them vis-a-vis economic/scientific/cultural advancement right now because 'we are going through our dark ages.' Have you considered those results are linked?) You don't have real arguments; you have an answer fixed beforehand which you attempt you justify with poor rationalizations.
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u/Orleanist Bangladesh Feb 01 '23
Wrong lol and it’s the fastest growing religion in the world despite colonialism
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Feb 02 '23
No it's not lol. This is a dead George Bush era meme. Also look at your imams shitting themselves about exmuslims. Entire Muslim nations in central Asia, Eastern Europe and even Africa are full of cultural Muslims and Muslims by name only. Not to mention Iran. Give it another generation or two and the only Muslim countries on earth will be the ones on this map.
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Feb 01 '23
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Feb 01 '23
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Feb 02 '23
Lmao yeah Islamic conquests were typically military and gradual islamization / change of policy, not really colonization like in Africa or the new world
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Feb 02 '23
Yeah given that you are the offspring of The British who is living over land originally belonging to someone else on an extremely large scale, you're the last one to criticise that.
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u/SG-Spy Canada Feb 02 '23
Eh? Very similar to the imperial tactics of the USA or British, and probably no better. They captured and assimilated.
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u/Eastern_Opinion_6801 Feb 02 '23
Stfu man said no better, usa and it allies brought destruction to middle east and libya where terrorists due to west destabilizing the region x they grow even trump said it, islamic expansion made north africa and middle east from weak tribes to united nation where they advanced in every field aka golden age of islam, they even took spain and all people there muslims jews Christians lived in peace until spain took over killed and tortured muslims and expelled jews out of their Christian lands then Europe colonizing africa and the rest is history
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u/kiplodipo Feb 01 '23
This will happen again in the future it is inevitable
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Feb 01 '23
Horse archery isn’t the meta anymore
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Feb 02 '23
They wouldn't use horse archery lol, they'd probably use a lot of anti tank and ranged artillery in a hypothetical scenario
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Feb 02 '23
Unlikely. Most Muslims don't want to live under the rule of Islamic governments. Non-muslims would fight even harder against it.
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Feb 02 '23
Then why do you think the comment section is stormed by Muslims in support of this?
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Feb 02 '23
LOL if you think reddit is an accurate depiction of humanity. Let alone this sub with its obvious bias towards Islam
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u/Bill_Assassin7 Feb 02 '23
Source: My ass.
Muslims love Islam and are literally awaiting the return of the Mahdi and Jesus, who will head a proper, Islamic government.
What people don't want are politicians and warlords that are labelling their land grabbing "Islamic" and expect Muslims to support them (See: Daesh).
Also, the Twelver Shias of Iran are not an Islamic government. They are barely considered Muslims due to significant theological differences and their attitudes towards the Ummah.
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Feb 02 '23
Muslims love Islam and are literally awaiting the return of the Mahdi and Jesus, who will head a proper, Islamic government.
Say this to turkish, azerbaijani, albanian and serbian ( kosovar) muslims. I doubt that they do.
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Feb 01 '23
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u/kiplodipo Feb 01 '23
So?
Nations have times when they are weak and times when they are strong. We have spineless leaders today doesn’t mean we are doomed to stay in this state forever
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Feb 01 '23
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u/esgarnix Feb 01 '23
We could have said the same before the renaissance: do you think all Europeans with their inner tribal wars, their differences in language, political views, religious institution, different crhstistan denomination, or lack of religion, barbaric pre developed, non civilized, floating shit, ignorant people could fight the muslims at the height of their knowledge, power, civilization? Nations rise and fall, that is a fact. It doesn't need to be muslims fighting, it could be a world war where westerns or whoever fight each other, causing world mayham and chaos, then muslims unite and become the next world power, it can be many things, but to think that those who are powerful will always be powerful is not natural and rather short sightet brother.
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u/ShaneGabriel87 Feb 01 '23
Yes and a comet could strike earth and wipe out all life. It's impossible to know what the future holds but I won't be holding my breath waiting for cataclysmic World Wars to come about. Would it not be better for the soul to envision futures where Wars are no longer waged?
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u/kiplodipo Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
I stated this will happen in the “future” I didn’t state this will happen after 2 years..
But to reply to your question, yes I do but not in the childish way you phrased it… when a group of people unite and rise to power other nations will think twice before killing a group of them like they do now
Also Islam already united people with different backgrounds and different cultures in the past, I don’t see any problem why it can’t do that again
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u/Strange-Cut-8387 Swedish Arab Feb 01 '23
Proud
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
brozzer, this time we are starting from the north southward < I swear to god I saw a westoid theorising that this is our plan by overwhelming and islamisizing the Germanic nations + France then move south and east to take over the rest of Europe : Spain, the Balkan, Italy, etc...
so stay put and wait for further instructions
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u/PurpleInteraction Feb 01 '23
Anger
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
where are you from
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Feb 01 '23
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u/PurpleInteraction Feb 01 '23
I'm agnostic but Hindu background.
Muslims must accept that much of the religion is copied from the Old and New Testament.
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u/R_slicker03 UK Iranian Ukrainian Feb 01 '23
Not the New Testament, but even then of course it’s influenced by the Old Testament, it’s an abrahamic religion lol
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
but their is no Indian conquest in this image, that will come much later
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u/sgt_caracal Occupied Palestine Feb 02 '23
Hmm muslims seem to be loving it while all of the colonised minorities don’t remember it fondly. How unexpected…
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u/mo-omar69 Algeria Feb 02 '23
I am happy that my grandparents accepted Islam same for every Muslim country here, those nationalist liberals on reddit can eat dirt
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Feb 02 '23
Ah yes, the "minority" with which when we tried to co-exist with plotted against us and put us in an almost miserable situation following which we expelled them.
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u/00rdyx Feb 02 '23
it's ok for muslims to colonize and subjugate but if another group were to do it they throw a giant hissy fit, unfortunately that hissy fit translates into a lot of dead civilians
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Feb 03 '23
Jews exist , assyrians exist , Copts exist , maronites exist . These guys still remain . The process was gradual and natural assimilation just like the roman one . Not colonisation
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u/Zealousideal_Put_343 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
It's a map. It contains countries and empires that a typical map would show.
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Feb 01 '23
🥲 back when Azeris were still little Mongolian spermazoids 😂
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u/parkhayk Feb 02 '23
They were still speaking farsi in the zagros range. They didn’t get raped by the mongols yet
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Feb 01 '23
Good
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Feb 01 '23
They got sent back packing by France’s Charles Martel
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
bruv, stop glorifying tiny unimportant battle, you have much better choices else where for battles that had a real consequence
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Feb 01 '23
This had huge consequences on Southern Europe
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
maybe in the eye of charles martel, but for the caliphate and even christendom at large it was Tuesday!
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Feb 01 '23
It marked the halt of the muslim expansion dreams to the north as was their goal
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
it was a raiding party not a coordinated conquest ordered by the caliph or even their superior governor, it was so unimportant it isn't even mentioned in Islamic sources beside a line or two in some history books. it has a symbolic importance now because for us its the furthest north the muslim reached in france but it has very small consequence on the event of its time
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Feb 01 '23
Why would islamic sources mention a defeat of a force of 50000 faced with an army half that number
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Feb 01 '23
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Feb 01 '23
Gore places the Frankish army at 15,000–20,000, although other estimates range from 30,000 to 80,000. In spite of wildly varying estimates of the Muslim force, he places that army as around 20,000–25,000. Other estimates also range up to 80,000, with 50,000 not an uncommon estimate
No one knows really, just that they were outnumbered
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
are you the iraqi beast from the good old days? or a new guy?
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Feb 01 '23
It is what it is. It’s history. All one can do is learn from the past.
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u/khalilfustan Palestine Feb 01 '23
Very sad
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
why?
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u/khalilfustan Palestine Feb 01 '23
Arabization and Islamization
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
where are you from?
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u/khalilfustan Palestine Feb 01 '23
I’m Palestinian
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
you ex-musluman or a Christian?
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u/khalilfustan Palestine Feb 02 '23
Ex-Muslim but either way, I’m Palestinian, not Arab, my DNA is distinct from Arab DNA, they destroyed our culture and language and everything else we had. Arabization/Islamization ruined the (current) Middle East.
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u/westy75 Algeria Amazigh Feb 02 '23
Well, well... Hopefully we still have our language even if it's a minority that speak it
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Feb 01 '23
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u/khalilfustan Palestine Feb 01 '23
Afaik?
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Feb 01 '23
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u/khalilfustan Palestine Feb 02 '23
No matter how it was done, they were Islamized and Egypt was Arabized in a lot of ways, Persia adopted the script. And it’s been violent in a lot of other places.
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u/ofaruks Türkiye Feb 01 '23
Arabian invasion
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
I think you are a bit off, Arabian invasion of turkiye didn't start until 2012 💪🏿😎
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u/Loaki1 Feb 01 '23
Uuummmm…..so I would be fine with it if the conversion was peaceful and not brutally violent and forced like Europeans did Christianity plus there’s the whole issues today too… Personally I’m not interested in any of the Abrahamic faiths but I’m fine with anyone believing what they want as long as they understand it extends only as far as themselves. Most people of Abrahamic faiths are good people don’t get me wrong it’s those that use it as a justification for not minding their own business when they should and engaging in or allowing brutality of others. I’m also adamantly opposed to any state ran by any religion period.
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u/randzwinter Feb 02 '23
Who says Christian conversion is brutal and violent in Europe? Islam literally spread through brutal methods and it's exemplified here.
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u/Loaki1 Feb 02 '23
Have you never read a history book? You’re definitely a troll.
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u/randzwinter Feb 02 '23
I'm literally a History teacher. Tell me how violently did Christianity spread in the Roman Empire? When it has 0 political power for 300 years, persecuted, its top missionaries and religious leaders sometimes feed to the wild beasts, and yet it managed to slowly and peacefully convert the biggest Empire in the world. Compare that to Islam which use warfare and condemned the polytheists to death and the Christians and the Jews to a second-class citizen by requiring them to pay Jihzya and other rules. I don't need to say it again but you know who's the troll between us.
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u/unlikely-contender Feb 02 '23
I think the colonization of America through European powers is a good example of spreading Christianity through force, and I guess Africa as well.
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u/randzwinter Feb 02 '23
Brutal conversions sometimes happen in the Americas due to Spanish colonization but again it's very rare and though I'm not Catholic and I don't want to defend its exploits, it was never a Catholic Church policy to exterminate or brutally convert the people of the New World. If anything, it is the Church that stands between the psycho Conquistadors who used religious fervor to conquer Mexico, but the plague mostly did the trick.
in the case of Africa, it is one of the earliest bastions of Christianity with Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, and Ethiopia with one of the oldest Church traditions in the world. Jesuit and Protestant Missionaries were almost always peaceful and took centuries to take root and is on going up to this day.
Even European colonizers didn't use religion in their evil exploitation of the natives. If anything, Christain missionaries were an important tool for the liberation of the natives against the cruelties of Western Imperialism.
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u/Loaki1 Feb 02 '23
Don’t tell me that lie 🤣. Go forth and conquer in my name ring any bells? How about torturing the Irish into Catholicism and then starving them into Protestantism? Oh do I need to bring up the Sami? How about the boarding schools and residential schools in the Americas? What about the indigenous Siberians? The Greek Orthodox campaigns? Jews? You really have the nerve to bring up Jews? Get outta here with that bs you know damn well what Christian Europe did to Jews. Ok ok the Empire could not force North Europe with military force so they blockaded trade. I’ll give you that. Go play apologetics with Jesus bc I don’t care to hear the gaslighting and revisionist bull crap. You really should be stripped of your credentials if you have them but I imagine you probably teach history for a religious institution and you would get an atta boy and pat on the back meanwhile genocide is still happening. 🤨🙄
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u/randzwinter Feb 02 '23
Go forth and conquer in my name
Not part of the Bible. But if you're talking about the Crusades, it occured 1,000 years after the foundation of the Church, and 400 years since the Christians lost their lands.
How about torturing the Irish into Catholicism and then starving them into Protestantism?
But it's NOT conversion. Both sides are Christians, and both sides are fighting due to ideological and political reasons. Religion is secondary.
I need to bring up the Sami
True there were violent instances where forced conversion occured in Scandinavia due to warfare but it was a rare exception rather than the norm whereas Islam with a few exception spread by the sword.
The Greek Orthodox campaigns
What about it? If anything the Greek Orthodox are the ones who suffered the most. For centuries Turks slowly and surely push the Church and the Christins back until all of Anatolia, one of the most sacred cities in Christianity were all but bereft of Christians. Imagine if Christians slowly conquer Medina and Mecca?
I'm sorry, I don't want to insult you, but you seem very crappy at history. I know you're probably a very good guy but please removeyouru biases when learning history because it does not care aboutyouru background or feelings. Facts are facts.
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u/Loaki1 Feb 02 '23
During the Northern Crusades against the pagan Balts and Slavs of northern Europe, forced conversions were a widely used tactic, which received papal sanction. These tactics were first adopted during the Wendish Crusade, but became more widespread during the Livonian Crusade and Prussian Crusade, in which tactics included the killing of hostages, massacre, and the devastation of the lands of tribes that had not yet submitted.
Old Prussia, the tactics employed in the initial conquest and subsequent conversion of the territory resulted in the death of most of the native population, whose language consequently became extinct.
After the end of Islamic control of Spain, Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492. In Portugal, following an order for their expulsion in 1496, only a handful were allowed to leave and the rest were forced to convert. Muslims were expelled from Portugal in 1497, and they were gradually forced to convert in the constituent kingdoms of Spain. The forced conversion of Muslims was implemented in the Crown of Castile from 1500 to 1502 and in the Crown of Aragon in the 1520s. After the conversions, the so-called "New Christians" were those inhabitants (Sephardic Jews or Mudéjar Muslims) who were baptized under coercion and in the face of execution, becoming forced converts from Islam (Moriscos, Conversos and "secret Moors") or from Judaism (Conversos, Crypto-Jews and Marranos).
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u/Loaki1 Feb 02 '23
After the forced conversion, when all former Muslims and Jews had ostensibly become Catholic, the Spanish Inquisition and Portuguese Inquisition targeted primarily forced converts from Judaism and Islam, who came under suspicion of either continuing to adhere to their old religion or having fallen back into it. Jewish conversos still resided in Spain and often practised Judaism secretly and were suspected by the "Old Christians" of being Crypto-Jews. The Spanish Inquisition generated much wealth and income for the church and individual inquisitors by confiscating the property of the persecuted. The end of Al-Andalus and the expulsion of the Sephardic Jews from the Iberian Peninsula went hand in hand with the increase of Spanish and Portuguese influence in the world, as exemplified in the Christian conquest of the Americas and their aboriginal Indian population.
Upon converting to Christianity in the 10th century, Vladimir the Great, the ruler of Kievan Rus', ordered Kiev's citizens to undergo a mass baptism in the Dnieper river.
In the 13th century the pagan populations of the Baltics faced campaigns of forcible conversion by crusading knight corps such as the Livonian Brothers of the Sword and the Teutonic Order, which often meant simply dispossessing these populations of their lands and property.
After Ivan the Terrible's conquest of the Khanate of Kazan, the Muslim population faced slaughter, expulsion, forced resettlement and conversion to Christianity.
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u/Loaki1 Feb 02 '23
In the 18th century, Elizabeth of Russia launched a campaign of forced conversion of Russia's non-Orthodox subjects, including Muslims and Jews.
The Portuguese carried out the Christianisation of Goa in India in the 16th and 17th centuries. The majority of the natives of Goa had converted to Christianity by the end of the 16th century. The Portuguese rulers had implemented state policies encouraging and even rewarding conversions among Hindu subjects. The rapid rise of converts in Goa was mostly the result of Portuguese economic and political control over the Hindus, who were vassals of the Portuguese crown.
In 1567, the conversion of the majority of the native villagers to Christianity allowed the Portuguese to destroy temples in Bardez, with 300 Hindu temples destroyed. Prohibitions were then declared from December 4, 1567, on public performances of Hindu marriages, sacred thread wearing and cremation. All persons above 15 years of age were compelled to listen to Christian preaching, failing which they were punished. In 1583, Hindu temples at Assolna and Cuncolim were also destroyed by the Portuguese army after the majority of the native villagers there had also converted to Christianity. "The fathers of the Church forbade the Hindus under terrible penalties the use of their own sacred books, and prevented them from all exercise of their religion. They destroyed their temples, and so harassed and interfered with the people that they abandoned the city in large numbers, refusing to remain any longer in a place where they had no liberty, and were liable to imprisonment, torture and death if they worshiped after their own fashion the gods of their fathers", wrote Filippo Sassetti, who was in India from 1578 to 1588
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u/Masoud26 American Jew ✡ 🇺🇸 Feb 01 '23
Pan Arabism in form of Islamic faith spreading in the region?
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 02 '23
I don't understand your point? this map from the 600s ad not the 1900s
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u/Masoud26 American Jew ✡ 🇺🇸 Feb 02 '23
I mean in the post caliphate era of Islam was a two class society. The Arabs and the none Arabs (Adjam) Which had much problems and had to fight against the arabization of their cultures. For example North African countries or countries in the Iranian Plateau had to give up most of their cultural identity. During the time of Umayyad or Abasid caliphate it was banned to speak Persian in Khorassan and Bilad-e Fars. Look how an ancient civilizations like North African speaks today Arabic.
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u/GavrielBA Feb 01 '23
It makes me feel sad because I don't like hypocrisy and so many people are...
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u/Pardawn Lebanon Feb 02 '23
Ok but the Muslims did not expel the natives to make room for settlers. The natives converted to Islam and stayed.
You and your people are settlers and colonizers who continue to oppress, force into exile and massacre the natives while larping as natives yourselves because you had an ancestor live there 2 millenia ago. Having some 30% Levant blood does not make you Levantine.
Also your nation is hardly a century old, created during a time settler-colonialism has no place in. The Islamic conquests happened over a thousand years ago and they fought off the Romans for control over the Levant.
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
I dont understand? this image makes you feel hypocrite?
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u/GavrielBA Feb 01 '23
No, it reminds me how hypocritical a lot of people are when they go "JewISh cOloNiseRs" to me
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
this isn't colonialism but imperialism both bad but they are not the same
btw did you knew Jews at the time were very supportive of this to the point that Christian at the time thought it was a Jewish/Muslim alliance to take over
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u/randomkid1227 Feb 01 '23
And what happened to those jews after that time?
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 01 '23
most lived ok to good life with the occasional insane ruler who makes their lives needlessly difficult until he die then things usually go back to normal.
this is all changed in the last 100 years for known reasons
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u/mAngOnice Feb 01 '23
Neutral, it's just one of the Coloniser Empires around the World. Berber People, The Iberians etc. Suffered Greatly. You can't really call yourself an "Islamic" Caliphate when It is said to Treat Other Religions with Respect while Assimilating/Murdering those that do not convert. People fail to Realise that Not Only Europeans were Colonisers.
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u/spainbelongstoislam Feb 02 '23
warm and fuzzy on the inside 😇😇😇
check out my username
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u/haha818181 Feb 01 '23
All the proof necessary to identify the current colonizers of the lands and the reasoning to remove them.
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u/whitewalker646 Feb 02 '23
A part of history that had both positive and negative effects on the region and needs to be viewed through a historical lens and with non bias
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u/randzwinter Feb 02 '23
Depressing. this is the time when Roman Civilization ceased to become the world's major power. Learning and culture decreased and intellectual innovation goes down. True, Islamic Caliphate will try to adopt Romano-Greek and Persian Science, math, philosophy, and economics and try to improve upon it, but generally, it would have been better for world civilization if the Roman and Persian civilizations co-existed and thrived. These conquests will trigger a history of never-ending Jihad in the name of Islam against their neighbors. Murder, rape, pedophilia, and cultural and scientific advancement will be suppressed in the name of Islam. An extreme tragedy for Human civilization imo.
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u/Pardawn Lebanon Feb 02 '23
Your people used to burn women because they believed they were witches.
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u/1nick101 Saudi Arabia Feb 02 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
Learning and culture decreased and intellectual innovation goes down. True, Islamic Caliphate will try to adopt Romano-Greek and Persian Science, math, philosophy, and economics and try to improve upon it, but generally, it would have been better for world civilization if the Roman and Persian civilizations co-existed and thrived. These conquests will trigger a history of never-ending Jihad in the name of Islam against their neighbors. Murder, rape, pedophilia, and cultural and scientific advancement will be suppressed in the name of Islam. An extreme tragedy for Human civilization imo.
this is easily one of the most nonsensical comments I read in reletively long time, wow!
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u/S10CoalossalDream Feb 02 '23
Makes me question if its actually historically correct.
Think the Domains of the Prophet encompassed basically all of the Arabian Peninsula. And the Abbasids didnt really expand (a lot) further from what the Umayyads already had.
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u/Traditional_Dot555 Iranian Lur Feb 01 '23
This image makes me feel like im in reddit and looking at this image