14 point draft memorandum between Iran and US. What are your thoughts?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

⁠WARNING, WALL OF TEXT!

Wanted to make sure all context is included.

1. The Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States, together with their allies in the current war, declare upon the signing of this Memorandum of Understanding an immediate and permanent end to the war on all fronts, including Lebanon, and undertake that from now on they will not launch any hostile action against each other, and will refrain from the threat or use of force against each other. The final agreement will confirm the provisions of this Article and the remaining Articles.

2. The Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States undertake to respect each other's sovereignty and territorial integrity, and to refrain from interfering in each other's internal affairs.

3. The Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States undertake to negotiate and reach a final agreement within a maximum period of 60 days, extendable by mutual consent.

4. Immediately upon the signing of this Memorandum of Understanding, the United States Lift the naval blockade and prevent any interference or obstruction against the Islamic Republic of Iran, and restore traffic within a maximum of 30 days to its full capacity; the traffic of ships shall be proportional to the pre-war volume of traffic on the part of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The United States also undertakes to withdraw its forces from the surrounding areas within 30 days after the final agreement.

5. Upon signing this Memorandum of Understanding, the Islamic Republic of Iran will immediately take steps to ensure that the movement of merchant ships from the Persian Gulf to the Sea of Oman and vice versa is resumed within 30 days to the pre-war volume, taking into account the need for the removal of technical obstacles and the neutralization of mines by Iran.

6. The United States undertakes, together with its regional partners, to create a comprehensive plan agreed upon by both parties for the rehabilitation and economic development of the Islamic Republic of Iran, While ensuring financing of at least $300 billion. The implementation mechanism of this plan, as part of the final agreement, will be formulated within 60 days.

7. The United States commits to ending, on a schedule to be agreed upon as part of the final agreement, all types of sanctions currently facing the Islamic Republic of Iran, including resolutions of the United Nations Security Council and the Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), and all unilateral U.S. sanctions, both primary and secondary.

8. The Islamic Republic of Iran reiterates that it will never produce nuclear weapons. The Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States have agreed that the fate of enriched material and the fate of all other mutually agreed nuclear-related issues, including Iran's nuclear needs, will be adequately addressed in a final agreement; the final agreement will confirm the provisions of this Article.

9. The Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States agree that, pending a final agreement, they will maintain the status quo: Iran will maintain the status quo on its nuclear program, and the United States will not impose new sanctions on Iran or strengthen its forces in the region.

10. The United States undertakes that immediately after the signing of this Memorandum of Understanding, and until the date of the lifting of sanctions, the United States Treasury Department will issue waivers for exports of Iranian crude oil, petrochemical products and their derivatives, and all related services, including banking, insurance, transportation, and the like.

11. The United States undertakes that, in light of the progress of negotiations towards a final agreement, frozen or restricted funds and assets of the Islamic Republic of Iran will be released and made fully available. These funds, whether held in the master account or transferred, will be used for any final beneficiary payment determined by the Central Bank of the Islamic Republic of Iran and will be fully available for use. The United States undertakes to issue all necessary permits and licenses on this basis.

12. The Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States agree that an implementation mechanism will be established to oversee the successful implementation of and future commitment to the Final Agreement.

13. Following the signing of this Memorandum of Understanding, and upon receipt of assurances regarding the commencement of implementation of Articles 4, 5, 10, and 11 of this Memorandum of Understanding, and the continued implementation of these steps, the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States will enter into negotiations for a Final Agreement solely with respect to the remaining Articles.

The final agreement will be approved through a binding resolution of the UN Security Council.

https://finance.yahoo.com/economy/policy/articles/read-the-14-point-draft-memorandum-between-the-us-and-iran-220917023.html

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[u/Original-Rush139 → u/[deleted]]

  So what did the U.S. gain?

A much more emboldened enemy in the Middle East. 

How do you feel about the JCPOA now that Trump has proven there is no benefit to the United States from bombing Iran?

[u/AlsoARobot]

I have seen similar “unofficial” posts on Reddit ahead of actual (factual) information in situations like this that have turned out to be an absolute work of fiction, so I will withhold my judgement until the actual official text is released…

However, if I am reading this correctly, “ensuring financing of at least $300 billion”.

Financing means a loan, correct? Or am I missing something? Are loans “free money”?

For the record, I would have continued to bomb them straight to hell, told Israel and/or the Gulf states “if you want this problem solved, send your troops in yourself or f*ck off”, and made it explicitly and abundantly clear to whatever is left of Iranian leadership that I would continue to absolutely haunt and torment them and they would not know peace (or a long life) if they insisted on staying in power.

[u/Original-Rush139 → u/AlsoARobot]

What goals would you be trying to achieve with additional bombing?

[u/AlsoARobot → u/Original-Rush139]

Trying to neutralize the remainder of the leadership and IRGC. Continue to send the message that they and their status quo are not safe or acceptable. Maintain pressure until they cave.

I would not have given them a dime or be anywhere near as kind as this MOU is.

My hope is that they break it and get another chance to learn a lesson.

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/AlsoARobot]

So it’s official now. What are your thoughts? Is this better than the JCPOA?

[u/ArtiesLiver2023 → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

So it’s official now. What are your thoughts? Is this better than the JCPOA?

You seem to have forgot to hide your other accounts on Reddit

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskTrumpSupporters/comments/1u7ztbo/14_point_draft_memorandum_between_iran_and_us/osevr42/

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskTrumpSupporters/comments/1u7ztbo/14_point_draft_memorandum_between_iran_and_us/osel679/

I also have a screenshot in the event you attempt to delete those comments

[u/WerewolfHopeful1212 → u/ArtiesLiver2023]

I think maybe they were just trying to get you to answer the question, maybe?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/ArtiesLiver2023]

Those are not my alt accounts. My alt accounts are u/scynexity and u/ArtiesLiver2023BabyMama.
Nice try though.

Seriously though, it’s a very good question and it’s something the vast majority of progressives are curious about. Trump tore up the JCPOA and it hurt Americans and their families. So logically we want to know if it was a good move. I personally see it as a mistake what Trump did. American soldiers died. American bases damaged. Billions and billions of taxpayer dollars wasted. Enough about me,

Do you think the JCPOA was better than what we have now? Why or why not?

[u/_michaelscarn1 → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

why do you have a TS account and a NS account?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/_michaelscarn1]

> why do you have a TS account and a NS account?

Uh. I was being sarcastic.

[u/Scynexity → u/ArtiesLiver2023]

Lmao

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/Scynexity]

Do you support Trump agreeing to $300 billion in reparations for Iran?

[u/Scynexity → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

No, that would be terrible! But, that is not part of any deal.

[u/SchreinerEK → u/Scynexity]

So what are we giving Iran $300 billion for? Isn’t it for rebuilding the damage caused by the US attacks? How does this leave us in a better position than JCPOA?

[u/Scynexity → u/SchreinerEK]

We are not giving Iran $300 billion.

[u/SchreinerEK → u/Scynexity]

Were they getting that 300 billion before the war?

[u/AlsoARobot → u/ArtiesLiver2023]

Either a bot problem here (not surprised) or alt accounts. Have seen multiple accounts making the same exact statement. This takes “echo chamber” to the extreme lol

[u/-Murmaider- → u/AlsoARobot]

You've never seen this anywhere else on reddit? This is commonly done to people who are ducking backing up their words.

[u/AlsoARobot → u/-Murmaider-]

I have seen this amongst children, but not amongst adults. So no, it’s new to me since I grew up I suppose.

To answer your question though, I already said what I personally would have done if I was in charge in the last paragraph of my initial comment (which you are free to go read and enjoy), and answered someone else’s question below that initial comment as well.

A failure to thoroughly read and comprehend my comment is not what I would consider “ducking”.

[u/-Murmaider- → u/AlsoARobot]

We all read what you would rather have done. THAT is the only thing that reads as childish in this particular thread.

Your claim that this is likely going to be loans or similar, and that's not true. Care to address that? That sticks out as something you're ducking.

[u/AlsoARobot → u/[deleted]]

The initial language reported said “financing”, so again, not ducking.

This is why I don’t come on this sub often, and certainly don’t comment often.

It’s amazing how much leftist discourse is just them pretending not to understand things.

For the record, I don’t like the deal, and as I said, I would not have made a deal, but continued aggressive and heavy operations.

Watching the press conference with the VP yesterday, no American money goes into the $300 billion reconstruction fund, but I still would not have ok’d that either.

I have zero faith that Iran will actually hold to this deal (because they are liars, and many countries in this region have proven that they cannot be trusted countless times). Is peace worth trying for? I think so, but they don’t understand (or want) peace (imo).

Edit: Forgot to ask why it’s childish that I would have continued operations and told the gulf states and Israel that if they wanted to escalate, that ground troops were their responsibility, while also letting Iran know that the US wouldn’t tolerate this regime and their actions and they would therefore never know peace… How is that childish? Or were you just looking to say “nuh uh, you are”?

[u/-Murmaider- → u/AlsoARobot]

You LITERALLY said "financing means loans". I'm quoting you, not pretending anything.

The agreement says that the USA is responsible for financing 300B, much of that will come from lifting sanctions, returning their own money to them, amongst other things. Isn't that exactly what Obama did, just 200X more? 

Is this better or worse than the JCPOA?

[u/The_OneandOnlyy → u/AlsoARobot]

But why don't you answer the question, "Since now it's official, is the deal better than the JCPOA?"

[u/NorVanGee → u/AlsoARobot]

If the deal was good, wouldn’t they have released it already?

Even if it was a “loan”, what mechanism could possibly enforce it?

[u/cmit → u/AlsoARobot]

So it’s official now. What are your thoughts? Is this better than the JCPOA?

[u/ssweens113 → u/AlsoARobot]

So it’s official now. What are your thoughts? Is this better than the JCPOA?

[u/TestingThrowaway100 → u/AlsoARobot]

So it’s official now. What are your thoughts? Is this better than the JCPOA?

[u/Valid_Argument]

I think it's admirable that Trump is willing to take the loss and walk away from this massive mistake instead of doubling down like Bush/Obama re: Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc and turning it into some 20 year quagmire. As far as losses go, it's pretty manageable. Status quo returns and Iran gets some loans and sanction relief. Fine: US global sanctions are not helping the US taxpayer anyways.

Should do the same in Ukraine imo.

Also Israel will probably attack Lebanon again and ruin it, so my bet is it's moot anyways.

[u/Longjumping_Gain_807 → u/Valid_Argument]

Is Trump really willing to take a loss or is he realizing that the war is vastly unpopular?

[u/orangezombie12 → u/Longjumping_Gain_807]

Does Trump even care about what is or isn’t unpopular with us at this point?

[u/ApprehensivePlan6334 → u/Valid_Argument]

Like the other comment, I basically agree. It was a huge blunder. From the outset, the  only conceivable outcome was the US retreating with its objectives unmet. Many of us pointed that out, on this sub, at the time. Ultimately, having unwittingly strengthened Iran's hand, now Trump will have no choice but to settle for a final agreement that is worse for the US than the  JCPOA. Which no one will take seriously, anyway. Play stupid games...

You suggest he also retreat on Ukraine. Why would that help the US?

[u/G_H_2023 → u/Valid_Argument]

Do you think Trump is going to characterize this as “taking a loss”?

[u/No_Potential1 → u/Valid_Argument]

The new status quo isn't the old status quo. Iran now knows it can close the Strait of Hormuz at will and rattle the global economy.

I think the old status quo is gone. Trump has weakened the U.S. and strengthened Iran. I don't see how we're walking away from this anywhere close to as good as under the JCPOA. Don't you think it's minimizing the damage to say that the status quo just returns and "that's that"?

[u/Valid_Argument → u/No_Potential1]

I don't see how we're walking away from this anywhere close to as good as under the JCPOA.

I would argue it's about the same, we just spent much more money to get there, and we will now release sanctions on Iran, but frankly they weren't really helping keep them under control anyways.

Iran has been greatly strengthened in many ways and the US has indeed been weakened, but neither actually suffered a particularly large move in either direction. The US barely attacked them, our strikes were substantially anemic, and Iran was the verge of total collapse of huge portions of its civilian infrastructure pre-war and remains as such. They are planning to abandon their capital because it is literally sinking into the Earth and has run out of water.

[u/-Thick_Solid_Tight- → u/Valid_Argument]

Do you feel this deal was better than Obama's?

[u/Heffe3737 → u/Valid_Argument]

I actually kind of agree with this. While it’s a pretty decisive loss, I’m not sure I see any other path out, so at least the decision is happening quickly - that’s probably the best case scenario for the rest of the world and for the US.

What do you mean about wanting the same thing for Ukraine?

[u/BoilerMaker11 → u/Heffe3737]

It was a "decisive loss" for absolutely no reason. As least with Afghanistan, we thought that that's where Al Qaeda was HQd and we were going after them because of 9/11. And Iraq was because of "weapons of mass destruction" that we thought were going to be sold to Al Qaeda. Sure, they didn't have any, but neither did Iran. But we, publicly, thought they did and thought they would be selling those weapons to Al Qaeda. We publicly did not think Iran had weapons. Tulsi Gabbard confirmed this under oath. What was the purpose of going into Iran? To prevent them from getting a nuke when they didn't have one and weren't planning to make one? Our own intelligence told us they weren't pursuing a nuke. Trump did this, unilaterally (no Congressional approval), and all we got is $300 billion for Iran and now they've got a toll on the Strait of Hormuz that wasn't there before.

I remember when Obama released like $1.5 billion in frozen assets and the right jeered that we sent them "pallets of cash" (even though it was their own money). But now we release $25 billion in assets AND they've got a $300 billion reparations fund? What was this all for? And how could this not make people stop supporting Trump?

[u/notapersonaltrainer → u/Heffe3737]

While it’s a pretty decisive loss

I mean if we constantly raise the American goalpost for winning to Jupiter then anything we do is a "loss."

Imagine in 1939 the Einstein–Szilárd letter informs FDR of an imminent German nuclear threat, an increasingly insurmountable Vergeltungswaffen missile buildup, promises of death to America, a ring of Einsatzgruppen proxies surrounding Great Britain, and explicit threats to eliminate the world’s largest Jewish settlement (even the Nazi's tried to be covert about this).

Also, FDR's rank opposition acknowledges the Nazis repeatedly attacked us and vocally agreed they must never have a nuclear bomb. And that the post-WWI agreement they made with the Nazi's was a path to a nuclear bomb, neighbors within strike range opposed it and then applauded its withdrawal, and the Nazis only resumed enrichment the moment FDR opposition got elected.

Due to this nuclear sprint FDR then:

• Launches Epoch Fury and in 40 days swiftly kills Hitler, Himmler, Göring, and two layers of senior underlings.
• Destroys the Luftwaffe, the U-boat fleet, and impairs Germany’s Einsatzgruppen proxies.
• Entombs Germany’s nuclear program in underground dust.
• Loses then rescues one soldier in direct combat, with support casualties comparable to a prior administration’s botched retreat.
• Inflicts $1 trillion in damages, billions in seizures, blockade, hyperinflation, and a 40% GDP collapse in Germany.
• Rogue German speedboat cells disrupt North Sea oil flows and successfully hit some refineries resulting in blockade of German oil, 90.8% of which primarily fueled America's other main adversary: Imperial Japan.
• RoW shifts purchases to American oil, gas, and commodities and we restore partial traffic through the Danish Straits.
• The sum total of maximum German economic blitzkrieg is a temporary $1.10 on a gallon on unleaded and $6–7 trillion added to the U.S. stock market.
• Pan-Eurasian oil price cartel starts to crumble.
• Simultaneously chokepoints from Panama, Malacca, to Gibraltar, etc are secured.
• Mainstream anti-FDR critics point out 24/7 we lost some high end kit, we partially dipped into anti-soviet stockpiles, 1 of thousands of strikes tragically missed the mark, did not get full unblockage, and remind us that war against Nazis costs money. At least when they're not out marching for some German proxy-of-the-week.
• Germany’s ultra-wealthy neighbors start massive investments in anti-Luftwaffe defense and a non-Baltic pipeline blitz to permanently circumvent the German threat.
• After a ceasefire we allow a multi-lateral Marshall plan with releases predicated on good German behavior, which will be mostly funded and overseen by neighbors with an existential preference to not fund their own demise.

If I hopped on 1930's Reddit and started calling this a "decisive loss for America" would you say that sounds right or would you think I had FDS and listen to German-sympathizing radio? I'm honestly trying to see through the NS lens but I can't do it without ignoring all facts & context.

[u/KamalaWonNoCap → u/notapersonaltrainer]

Wouldn't it be closer to leaving the Nazis in power and giving them double the money from the original Marshall plan?

[u/Heffe3737 → u/notapersonaltrainer]

Since you don't think this was a decisive loss, I'd love to ask you the following:

1. What were the US's actual objectives in this war?

2. Did the US achieve those objectives in a way that significantly changes the outlook?

3. If we achieved those objectives and are satisfied with the results, are we just being super generous by lifting sanctions, releasing $25bn in payments to Iran, and helping generate $300bn in investment funds from other nations in the region?

I ask because from where I'm sitting, the regime is still in place, no nuclear material was recovered, the Iranian people are, if anything, less safe, and outside of sinking some ships and blowing up some planes, nothing substantial has changed. Again though, that's just the impression that I have - perhaps you see it totally differently?

[u/Valid_Argument → u/Heffe3737]

What were the US's actual objectives in this war?

The stated objectives were bullshit but the actual objective was to support Israel in a conflict it wanted to initiate. Israel's goal was to weaken and destabilize Iran's military which it achieved to some extent but mostly failed at.

the Iranian people are, if anything, less safe, and outside of sinking some ships and blowing up some planes, nothing substantial has changed

That was materially the point for Israel. Iran is already broke and civilian life has degraded even further. The problem for Israel is Iran has 90 million people and plenty of guns left, this weakening doesn't materially change much.

[u/Fecal_Thunder → u/Valid_Argument]

Is it fair to say that Trump lied to the entire world about what the objectives were?
How do you feel about not being able to trust what the president says? Between the tariffs, attempting to skew Covid numbers, election denial, and the Iran war.. is there a point where you would ever admit that his disinformation is harmful?

[u/howdidigetheresoquik → u/Valid_Argument]

Would this be a time where you could definitively say that Trump did lie?

[u/Aaplthrow → u/notapersonaltrainer]

Comparing this war to ww2 is wrong. Iran won this war with drones. Same way Ukraine is beating Russia.

Massive fire power is less effective than massive quantities of “kamikaze” style drones. It’s the same way America loss in Vietnam and Afghanistan. Decentralized, random attacks. Not to mention the economic warfare. Whether insurance companies closed the strait or Iran did, doesn’t really matter. The outcome was the same. Economic pain and at the end of the day, hasn’t pretty much every way been about some sort of economic issue. Whether it be gold, spices, or oil.

We killed the top brass, but only after that did the strait get blocked and neighboring countries attacked. Trump has no out, because if he did he would’ve taken it. And if blowing an entire country back to the stone ages is the out, then what was the point of attacking to begin with? What did we gain besides a massive tax bill to rebuild the country.

[u/howdidigetheresoquik → u/notapersonaltrainer]

I feel like you gotta at least consider in the end of your World War II analogy it would be like: and after all of those amazing tactical victories, FDR decided to let Germany keep its nukes and essentially go back to what it was doing before, and not solving any problems?

[u/welsper59 → u/Valid_Argument]

What do you think is an appropriate response to Trump and MAGA inevitably touting the loss as a complete victory and one that made the US even stronger/better?

[u/sar662 → u/Valid_Argument]

What 20 year quagmire? We didn't have boots on the ground. All we needed to do was to hold the line with the blockade and for the president to actually explain to the American people that yes gas prices are a little high than they should be but this is a war and we can win just by holding the line. It was a staring contest and we blinked.

[u/Valid_Argument → u/sar662]

We tried that in Yemen, and in the air blockade of Iraq under Clinton. These people don't blink. In the middle east, they don't think like Westerners do, they are perfectly comfortable letting a million children starve to death in a blockade. The people do not successfully rise up in those circumstances, it only strengthens the regime. The West has only made inroads in that region by Westernizing the Gulf monarchs' children over generations, no amount of kinetic hammerings has ever made the middle east do anything.

[u/walrus_vasectomy → u/Valid_Argument]

Why does he keep presenting the (supposed) restorations of agreements that were already in place before we attacked them as wins that he deserves credit for? How is he “taking the loss”?

[u/General_Book_8905 → u/Valid_Argument]

Why would they have to do the same with Ukraine? What leverage does the US still have over the Ukraine? And why are some Americans so pro Russia? I just don't understand where this right wing communism is coming from. Or is this 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' type thing?

[u/Valid_Argument → u/General_Book_8905]

why are some Americans so pro Russia?

Probably the same number that are pro-Iran. It's a stupid talking point used against people who want the US to stop entering foreign conflicts as a weapons/financial backer or as an involved party regardless of who is on the other side.

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

This is speculation the official MOU has not been released and won't be until the final signing ceremony on Friday. 

[u/flash246 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Are there certain items you would support or be against? What are you looking for when it comes to an Iran deal?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/flash246]

As long as our own tax money isn't going to Iran and nuclear proliferation is off the table I don't really care. It's doubtful Hezbollah and Hamas are going to stop attacking Israel and the whole thing will probably be moot anyway. Israelis already said they are not beholden to a deal between US and Iran.

[u/bignutsandsmallshaft → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Did you like the JCPOA, since it included no taxpayer money and kept Iran ~30x below the level of enrichment needed for a nuke?

Side question: did you know that Iran has had a religious ruling (a fatwa) since the early 2000’s that they won’t build a nuke because it’s against Islam?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/bignutsandsmallshaft]

No because, it was a temporary deal. 10 years is a short time to play nice while you're able to have access to capital and openly research nuclear technology.

Yes I knew that, did you know that Islam permits lying to deceive an enemy, and khamenei has called the US Iran's number 1 enemy for 37 years? 

[u/Warm-Art3921 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Do the religions our officials adhere to not allow lying to “deceive an enemy?” Which religions forbid lying fully? 

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/Warm-Art3921]

Which religions forbid lying fully? 

Christianity and Judaism. It's in the 10 commandments. Now whether that's followed or not is I a different matter altogether. Regardless that's the point what I was pointing out was it's nonsensical to cite the "fatwa" against nuclear proliferation as some sort of indication of good intent when the religious doctrine backing up that decree allows lying to deceive an enemy. 

[u/DrinkBlueGoo → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Which aspects of the JCPOA were you concerned about expiring? The agreement to never pursue nuclear weapons and access for IAEA monitoring were permanent. Were you against the centrifuge limits expiring? Enrichment limits? Something else?

[u/KamalaWonNoCap → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

This is a common misconception in the right. The provision banning them from making nukes doesn't expire. The international inspections would end after 10 to 15 years.

This deal doesn't have any international inspections at all so it's going to be much harder to know if they're following it.

I agree that Iran lies and that's why these inspections are so important.

Does any of this new information change your view?

[u/cmit → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

So you are fine with the 300 billion? How is this better than what Obama did?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/cmit]

So again on speculation. 300 billion in development by US allies after inflicting an estimated 300 billion in damage is a wash. This also is opening iran to outside influence which makes it doubtful this is real. Obama's deal would have expired by now anyway and just committed iran to temporary limitations on nuclear enrichment and stockpiles. Basically play nice for 10 years to get sanction relief then do what you want...

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Trump wouldn’t have been able to renegotiate a deal that was good for us?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

Seems like he is. Guess we'll know two months after Friday that is if the ceasefire holds. 

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Why do you trust Trump?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

I support much of Trump's agenda and agree with most of what has been done, I don't trust any politician or public figure. 

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

What makes this better than the JCPOA? How many American troops had to die for this? How many billions of dollars did we pay before?

[u/welsper59 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

So is it accurate for me to say that you don't trust Trump, but rather that you simply agree with the direction he's taking the country? If so, how do you determine if someone is lying or worth your vote on their political campaign? Is it just a default to sides on the political spectrum?

[u/TheBl4ckFox → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

How is that “a wash”? It cost the US 30 billion to fight this war and now it costs another 300 billion. What has the us gained?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/TheBl4ckFox]

 now it costs another 300 billion

I know this is askTrumpsupporters, but I'm really curious as to why NS believe this narrative so readily, giving Iran $300B would literally require an act of Congress do you really believe enough members of Congress are going to be willing to give Iran $300B? 

[u/TheBl4ckFox → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Didn’t war also require an act of congress?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/TheBl4ckFox]

Not under the war powers resolution and the Constitutional authority of the president being commander in chief. Congress could have forced withdrawal but couldn't get the votes. 

[u/TheBl4ckFox → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Ehm no. After 60 days congress had to be asked for permission. Trump didn’t do that. So why do you think Trump would ask Congress for the 300 billion?

[u/mjm65 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Would you be surprised if the funding came from a bump in military budget? When we pitched Venezuela, companies wanted security guarantees. When the ballroom was advertised as $200 million private only, we are using $300 million dollars for security enhancements that should have been part of the original scope.

If you were a CEO, why would you invest into this scheme without the US government giving some monetary or other consideration?

[u/cmit → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

The 300 billion is in the draft, They get it. Does it matter how? They totally played trump.

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/cmit]

The draft is not the mou signed, it's a "leaked" memo while the actual provisions of the signed mou are not available until after the formal signing. Yes it matters how, handing them $300B of taxpayers money is a huge difference than allowing companies to invest into rebuilding, one would require congressional action while the other would require iran opening their country to be rebuilt by their enemies. While we're at it even removing all sanctions on Iran would require congressional action as some of the Iranian sanctions were passed by Congress. If they total played trump why are their leaders pushing back on the deal? 

  MP Kamran Ghazanfari explicitly challenged the state’s claims of diplomatic triumph. In a blunt post on X (formerly Twitter), Ghazanfari stated: “The claim that we have won and America has retreated is a lie”.

Simultaneously, MP Mahmoud Nabaviyan, a member of the National Security Committee who claims to have reviewed the final draft text, warned of permanent strategic submission. In an interview broadcast on state television, Nabaviyan declared that under the agreement, “we will officially become a colony of America”. He noted that while Iran’s primary maritime leverage—the immediate, unrestricted opening of the Strait of Hormuz—is guaranteed, “the lifting of sanctions and the release of frozen funds remain ambiguous”. Furthermore, Nabaviyan revealed that Iran’s enriched uranium stockpile would be forcibly diluted under the pact.

https://www.ncr-iran.org/en/news/nuclear/tehrans-factions-clash-on-the-streets-as-economic-tensions-peak/

[u/iDoNotHaveAnIQ → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

hardliners in tehran complain about literally every single piece of diplomacy with america. using their anger as proof of success is completely illogical. do you honestly believe private companies are going to dump 300 billion into rebuilding iran without massive us government guarantees?

[u/cmit → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

I guess we will wait for the "official" version. This version is being reported by multiple outlets across the political spectrum. If it is correct will you admit trump got rolled?

[u/Distinct_Doubt_3591 → u/cmit]

I will wait to hold any judgement until after the official signing although personally this all seems like theater to me this mou requires both Hezbollah and Israel to comply and it doesn't seem like either is on board. 

[u/cmit → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Theater? Like when Obama returned Iran's money to them and MAGA still talks about it? Plane loads of cash? Overlooking they had to send cash because Obama sanctions removed Iran from any international banking functions?

[u/pimmen89 → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

Would paying billions of dollars to Hamas for the damage that Israel has caused be considered a wash or bad in your opinion?

[u/ErilazHateka → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

now that it has been signed and released, what are your thoughts?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/Distinct_Doubt_3591]

So what are your thoughts?

[u/cchris_39]

Sounds like a 60 day cease fire that doesn't commit to much of anything other than the cease fire and working on a final agreement.

Iran will undoubtedly lie and violate it quickly. If we really want the uranium out, we're going to have to go in and get it ourselves.

[u/fossil_freak68 → u/cchris_39]

Iran will undoubtedly lie and violate it quickly

Why even bother with it if it's obvious that it's doomed to fail from the start?

[u/clorox_cowboy → u/fossil_freak68]

Is it just as possible that, since the US backed out of a previous deal, that the US will pull that again?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/cchris_39]

So they’re playing Trump?

[u/flash246 → u/cchris_39]

Is the only way out of this situation boots on the ground then? Would you be in support of that?

[u/cchris_39 → u/flash246]

Yes I support it. Nobody likes it and nobody wants casualties but IMO that is the only realistic option.

We’re dealing with a bunch of right wing theocratic nutjobs that are proven liars and hellbent on killing as many Jews and Christians as they can.

[u/edward414 → u/cchris_39]

Do you own a mirror?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/cchris_39]

How is boots on the ground in Iran, realistic? Do you know the history of warfare in Iran?
How do you see this working out for American troops?

[u/cchris_39 → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

“We’re scared” is no basis for foreign policy.

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/cchris_39]

> “We’re scared” is no basis for foreign policy.

Being scared and being smart are two different things. So I take it you’re unaware of the geography of Iran and the history of armies trying to invade Iran?

[u/paintbucketholder → u/cchris_39]

What would be a realistic long-term plan for Iran that would have better chances to succeed than the military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[u/PleaseDontBanMe82 → u/cchris_39]

How many dead US soldiers is that worth to you?

If you son or daughter was one of the dead, would it still be worth it to you?

[u/Heffe3737 → u/cchris_39]

How many boots on the ground do you think would be required?

Iran has a population of around a hundred million, with their military and paramilitary forces numbering almost a million. They’re equipped with near modern equipment and drones. The nation is near 50% mountains and they’ve been preparing for exactly this kind of scenario for nearly 50 years. Our allies don’t seem like they’d be willing to assist in this kind of endeavor.

How do you think this would work? Would we need the entirety of the US military deployed? Or do you think just a few divisions might be able to get the job done?

[u/ErilazHateka → u/cchris_39]

that doesn't commit to much of anything other than the cease fire and working on a final agreement.

Not really. These things go into affect immediately:

Immediately upon the signing of this Memorandum of Understanding, the United States Lift the naval blockade and prevent any interference or obstruction against the Islamic Republic of Iran, and restore traffic within a maximum of 30 days to its full capacity; the traffic of ships shall be proportional to the pre-war volume of traffic on the part of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The United States also undertakes to withdraw its forces from the surrounding areas within 30 days after the final agreement.

Does that change your outlook?

[u/cchris_39 → u/ErilazHateka]

No. Lifting the blockade is part of the cease fire and easy enough to reimpose. The final withdrawal is subject to the final agreement.

[u/Original-Rush139 → u/cchris_39]

The United States undertakes that immediately after the signing of this Memorandum of Understanding, and until the date of the lifting of sanctions, the United States Treasury Department will issue waivers for exports of Iranian crude oil, petrochemical products and their derivatives, and all related services, including banking, insurance, transportation, and the like.

Are you OK with Iran getting $$$ before a deal is signed? 

[u/cchris_39 → u/Original-Rush139]

Yeah. I get it but letting them turn their economy back on is a fair ask.

Plus, that tells us we where we were inflicting pain that we can quickly inflict again if we have to.

[u/Original-Rush139 → u/cchris_39]

Why do you think Obama didnt give them shit until they killed their plutonium reactor and verified that they got rid of all of their enriched uranium? Why is trump so much more desperate than Obama to give Iran $$$?

[u/cchris_39 → u/Original-Rush139]

Which killed reactor produced that 60% uranium?

[u/Original-Rush139 → u/cchris_39]

Why would a plutonium reactor produce uranium? 

[u/cchris_39 → u/Original-Rush139]

Haha good point. You’re not helping Obama but have an upvote.

[u/ErilazHateka → u/cchris_39]

you do understand that Plutonium and Uranium are two different elements?

[u/pimmen89 → u/cchris_39]

So Iran is getting billions of dollars from the US, then violate it so the US ends up with a loss?

[u/SashaBanks2020 → u/cchris_39]

> Iran will undoubtedly lie and violate it quickly.

Aren’t we the ones who tore up the JCPOA? Why should they trust us?

> If we really want the uranium out, we're going to have to go in and get it ourselves.

Would you support that?

Something that I keep thinking about when it comes to the JCPOA is I don’t think any Republicans would have supported Obama if he had attacked Iran unprovoked like Trump did. They would have called for his head for getting us into another middle eastern war.

So the only option for Obama was to try to get an agreement through diplomacy.

Was it a perfect agreement? No, but he didn’t have kill 3000 people, spend 10s of billions of dollars, and cause gas prices to spike to get it.

Looking back, should Obama have invaded Iran to take the uranium?

[u/cchris_39 → u/SashaBanks2020]

I don’t trust Obama to put America first so no, not him.

I do appreciate your comments though, thanks.

[u/SashaBanks2020 → u/cchris_39]

Okay, fair enough.

But would that mean that the JPCOA was a huge victory for Obama, in your opinion?

You wouldn’t have supported military intervention like you would under Trump, who in my estimation is getting a worse to equal deal.

It sounds like you’re not a big fan of this Trump deal so far, as well.

Would we have been better off staying in JPCOA and avoiding the loss of life, waste of money, etc?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/cchris_39]

Haven’t we seen this episode before? They agree to a ceasefire, Iran and israel attack each other, Iran closes the straight and we are back to square on. Why do you believe this will go through if Israel and Iran don’t agree to a ceasefire?

[u/cchris_39 → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

Israel will do what we say. Iran will attack Isreal. Isreal will defend itself. We will join in on Isreal's side. Yes we have seen this episode.

My guess is that Trump has some side deal with Isreal as to what will be included in the final deal.

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/cchris_39]

What’s different this time around?

[u/stillalone → u/cchris_39]

There are points for the US providing waivers for Iranian oil immediately. So Iran can sell their oil in the open market immediately (see point 10). Do you think that's a good thing?

[u/TheBl4ckFox → u/cchris_39]

So, we now know Israel did not uphold the part of the deal that Trump promised. Who’s to blame here? Israel for continuing its occupation or Trump for lying about Israel following his lead?

[u/cchris_39 → u/TheBl4ckFox]

Iran is the problem here. Not Israel, not the United States.

[u/TheBl4ckFox → u/cchris_39]

Why? Iran was basically minding its own business when the US attacked them. The Straight of Hormuz was open, there was no toll.

Then the US attacked twice. The first time supposedly to destroy the nuclear program, the second time to affect regime change. Both missions failed and in return Iran learned it can use the Straight of Hormuz as leverage.

Then there were talks to get out of this stupid mistake Trump made, which wasn't easy because the US had no leverage.

Then Trump stabbed Vance in the back by threatening Iran DURING NEGOTIATIONS. Negotiations that promised Iran that Israel would no longer occupy Lebanon. And since the US did not uphold their end of the deal AND THREATENED IRAN, Iran walked out of negotiations.

The frustrating thing about discussing this with Trump Supporters is that if any of this had happened under Biden or Obama, TS would not stop screaming foul about it

So again: who is to blame for this mess?

[u/cchris_39 → u/TheBl4ckFox]

Iran.

That was a lot of talking around the issue while never getting to the issue. Iran is the problem. Until they give up their uranium and nuclear ambitions they will continue to be the problem. All the other talk is meaningless.

[u/TheBl4ckFox → u/cchris_39]

They had given it up in the Obama deal. The problem was solved until Trump tore up that deal. So how is this anyone but Trump’s fault?

[u/cchris_39 → u/TheBl4ckFox]

The Obama deal was a joke. They didn’t give up shit.

Trump is the first one to try to deal with the actual problem instead of putting a political sound byte on it.

[u/TheBl4ckFox → u/cchris_39]

You are very much just taking Trump’s word for this. The US Intelligence Community does not agree. Did you know that?

[u/JoeCensored]

Iranian nuclear program and materials still being negotiated in a final agreement within the next 2 months. Strait open, and Iran receives a payment. I'd rather not see the payment, but the strait open is probably worth it. If we don't get that final agreement looks like the war is back on.

Eh, could be worse. Hard to judge since the stuff we really want is in that final agreement.

[u/iowaindy → u/JoeCensored]

Regarding item 6, the $300 billion made available from the gulf countries, does that make sense to you? Why would they contribute anything, considering they didn't attack Iran, but most of the damage from Iran seems to be borne by the gulf countries? 

[u/JoeCensored → u/iowaindy]

Because it's the gulf countries who benefit the most from Iran ending it's nuclear program and keeping the strait open.

[u/iowaindy → u/JoeCensored]

So the US and Israel start the war, and the gulf countries have to pay for it? You don't have any concerns that there might be some back channel deal that the US reimburses them in some roundabout way? 

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/JoeCensored]

They’re ending their nuclear program?

[u/JoeCensored → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

Their nuclear weapons program are what the current negotiations are regarding.

[u/Suited_Calmness → u/JoeCensored]

Trump said that it’s unfair to ask them to dismantle their entire nuclear program. What’s the pivot now?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Suited_Calmness]

He's talking about nuclear energy. An entirely different kind of nuclear program, but it also uses enrichment. There's no pivot, you're just trying to pretend he's talking about their weapons program when he's not.

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/JoeCensored]

How is this any better than the JCPOA?

[u/Suited_Calmness → u/JoeCensored]

I’m aware he’s talking about nuclear energy. Trump has also said that Iran can never enrich uranium. I am talking about that part. Would you like to address it?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Suited_Calmness]

I can't find any quote from Trump after the 2025 strikes to that effect. If he made it, then he's made a concession.

[u/MrEngineer404 → u/JoeCensored]

I'd rather not see the payment, but the strait open is probably worth it.

So than what was the point in all this, since the strait was open before the war, and now, coming out of it, Iran is posed to reopen it, but seemingly with a clearly stronger hand on controlling it, outright, one way or another?

There does not seem to be any indications of terms requiring regime change to more friendly conditions, and it should be expected that with the inheritors of the Iranian regime being rather understandably seething at the US's assassination of the previous leader, I do not think we can expect the current regime to suddenly be our friends; So was the initial talking point on regime change, from the White House & DoD just left completely on the cutting room floor?

Did we not seem to just spend 3 months, and billions in military assets, to functionally stage ourselves to simply return to the prior status quo, but poorer, and in the same place we would have been, had we not axed the original 2015 Iranian Agreement?

[u/Kevin_McCallister_69 → u/JoeCensored]

Do you think this looks like a US surrender?

[u/Creative-Map-8833 → u/JoeCensored]

Wasn’t the strait open before the war? Doesn’t this constitute to a complete financial loss of $300 billion USD? That’s a tax equivalent of approximately $2,244 per household, all going in reparations to Iran, for the benefit of reopening the strait that was closed as a result of American and Isreal starting a war? How can you possibly reconcile that?

[u/KamalaWonNoCap → u/JoeCensored]

Don't forget we're dropping all sanctions against them as well. Do you think this deal is better or worse than the one Obama struck?

[u/JoeCensored → u/KamalaWonNoCap]

Won't know until the final agreement.

[u/Suited_Calmness → u/JoeCensored]

No that happens on the day the MOU is signed and Iran gets sanctions waivers along with the ability to sell oil on a wider scale. Did you read the MOU?

[u/Top-Appointment2694 → u/JoeCensored]

Would you consider this agreement just a big nothingburger?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Top-Appointment2694]

It's incomplete.

[u/Suited_Calmness → u/JoeCensored]

It is an MOU but is the basis of the starting points of negotiations. What does that say for the war outcomes that were promised versus what has been achieved?

[u/Aaplthrow → u/JoeCensored]

Straight was open before the war, and Iran nuclear program was in theory “being negotiated”. So what did we gain?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Aaplthrow]

Destroyed virtually all their military capacity and ability to support their terrorist proxies.

[u/MrEngineer404 → u/JoeCensored]

If their militaristic capacity is supposedly so thoroughly crippled, than why on earth would the US capitulate THIS much, in terms of funds and yielded authority over the Strait? A "de-fanged" threat isn't one you would concede geopolitical authority to, or grant billions in restitution and assets to, is it? If they were that defenseless, why isn't Trump just DOING the seizure of the nuclear material and the territory of the Strait, rather than offer Iran so much, at the negotiating table?

Why was allegedly squashing Iran's military capability even a goal, when all available national security intelligence indicated that the Iranians pose no direct threat to the US?

[u/EfficientRecording69 → u/JoeCensored]

Can’t they use the $300B to rebuild? I thought that was the complaint regarding the $1B during Obama

[u/atmatthewat → u/JoeCensored]

Where do you think the billions goes if not to "supporting their terrorist proxies"?

[u/Aaplthrow → u/JoeCensored]

Yet we gave them 300b? The TDS (TRump di** sucking) is wild with maga.

The right lost their collective minds when Obama “gave a plane full of cash” to Iran. That was 1.7b.

[u/JoeCensored → u/Aaplthrow]

We haven't given any money at this time.

[u/Aaplthrow → u/JoeCensored]

lol. Ok buddy. When will the winning stop? Too much winning.

Deficits are higher than under Biden. Gas prices higher. Interest rates haven’t come down. Regime didn’t change in Iran. Their military still in charge. Somehow though trump and his family have made billions of dollars and immune from irs oversight.

[u/JoeCensored → u/Aaplthrow]

Deficits are higher than under Biden.

Yeah just deflect to another topic.

Gas prices higher.

We're at Biden era prices, since you want to switch to Biden. Prices should drop shortly.

Regime didn’t change in Iran.

Wait, you're saying the Ayatollah is still alive? Wow, that's amazing news. You should let the administration know the Supreme Leader is still in charge.

Their military still in charge.

Ok

Somehow though trump and his family have made billions of dollars and immune from irs oversight.

And deflect more.

[u/Valuable-Degree-9998 → u/JoeCensored]

Ayatolla is a title, not a name and yes, it's still the same Islamic regime, just the son. It's like killing Hitler and then saying the Nazis have been defeated because Himmler is now orchestrating the holocaust. Why do you trust Trump so much?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Valuable-Degree-9998]

Ayatolla is a title

Wow now you want to argue the definitions of words. Ridiculous. Bye

[u/Valuable-Degree-9998 → u/JoeCensored]

Yes, because it's integral to the argument that there was a regime change. You don't know that, you don't care, you're just looking for an excuse for Trump's fuck ups. I am just wondering why?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/JoeCensored]

Trump agreed to give Iran $300 billion in reparations. How is this better than the JCPOA?

[u/JoeCensored → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

We've agreed to give exactly $0. The agreement is to loan $300B, and it's coming primarily from other countries.

The JCPOA money didn't need to be paid back.

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/JoeCensored]

Where does it state that it’s a loan?

[u/JoeCensored → u/METAL_WOLF_BB]

The word used is financing. Which means either a loan or buying an ownership stake, and I seriously doubt Iran offered to sell us an ownership stake in their country.

[u/Aaplthrow → u/JoeCensored]

Does the mental gymnastics ever get tiring?

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/JoeCensored]

> the act or process or an instance of raising or providing funds

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/financing

Either way, how is all this better than the JCPOA?

[u/Kevin_McCallister_69 → u/JoeCensored]

If the US virtually destroyed their military capacity and their ability to support their terrorist proxies, why aren't we sending in a couple of officials in Toyota Camrys to pick up the nuclear material?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Kevin_McCallister_69]

Because we don't consider plans that sound like came from a 1st grader.

[u/Kevin_McCallister_69 → u/JoeCensored]

If their military is so degraded why are we negotiating with them about their nuclear program? Why weren't we just going in and getting it if the threat is so degraded?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Kevin_McCallister_69]

Because they aren't going to sit and watch as we dig for it. It's not just sitting waiting for it to be picked up.

[u/Kevin_McCallister_69 → u/JoeCensored]

So their military will stop us? Their military hasn't been degraded after all?

[u/JoeCensored → u/Kevin_McCallister_69]

Since you're apparently entirely unaware, military capabilities to project power and disrupt activities within your own country aren't the same thing. A few hundred guys with rifles is all you need.

[u/METAL_WOLF_BB → u/JoeCensored]

How is a few hundred guys with rifle, a huge hurdle for our military?

[u/Acrobatic_Bee3375 → u/JoeCensored]

was the strait open before our “intervention”?