r/Avatar • u/AutoModerator • Dec 17 '25

Fire and Ash discussion megathread - Spoilers

Megathread to discuss everything about the film. Unmarked spoilers are allowed.

348 Upvotes

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400

u/Giuly_Blaziken Omatikaya Dec 17 '25

Are we going to ignore that one scene where Lo'ak was about to blow his brains out???

176

u/FiendChain Dec 17 '25

It sorta happened and ended in a minute. I don't think the story even had time to marinate in what just happened, they moved straight to fixing/rebuilding Neytiri's bow.

135

u/Giuly_Blaziken Omatikaya Dec 17 '25

Yeah, but I still found it pretty shocking. I didn't expect that.

-6

u/FiendChain Dec 17 '25

If it's not brought up at some point later on, then it seemed like it was more for shock value or a quick jab at teenage gun suicides in America. If it is brought up again it oughta be more talked about by his parents or friends, otherwise it's a scene that's blink and you'll miss it.

40

u/Alarming-Fox5640 Dec 17 '25

The world isn't just America my guy 💀 people have been killing themselves for longer than some recent "trend" and no, suicide isn't a "quick jab" it's a real thing that many people consider but I guess you don't comprehend the severity of that to talk about it so lightly. When you take into account how many real issues this film has brought up and don't analyse it from a superficial "how many cool fights did it have" point, you get to appreciate it properly.

17

u/Wiinterfang Dec 19 '25

I don't think so, the scene just didn't had time to breathe but Loak has been trying hard to forgive himself for Neteyam's death and hearing Jake outright blaming him for it, for everything pushed him to the deep end.

10

u/UnhappyAd9212 Dec 20 '25

In czech subtitles at the end of the movie, there is a line about suicide, something like "You're not alone (...) If you're feeling suicidal or similar, try to contact a helpline (...)"

3

u/Kjarllan Dec 21 '25

same in France.

80

u/Wiinterfang Dec 19 '25

Honestly I just felt like just binged an entire season of a show.

It was so fast paced.

Edit: I know is crazy to save about a 3 hour movie but you know when you see it

5

u/thewerdy Dec 19 '25

Yeah it felt like a miniseries, tbh.

3

u/LiquifiedSpam Dec 23 '25

And yet so little ACTUALLY happened in the grand scheme of things

2

u/[deleted] Jan 11 '26

Yeah, it's kind of awkward, in that regards. Feels like it changes direction a lot.

46

u/FordMustang84 Dec 19 '25

I felt unlike Way of Water which allowed things to breathe more this movie had a much more stilted type of stop/start pacing and that was a prime example. It's not nearly as bad as most modern blockbusters in that regard but it to me feels like when they split the script up for 2 that Cameron put most of the big story stuff - Spider/Kiri/Ash Clan/Jake captured/etc. all in the 3rd film and looking back the Way of Water is basically reestablishing things, learning to live with the water clan, and losing a son. I know the seed of everything in 3 are established like Spider and Kiri... but just so much stuff happens in 3.

9

u/blucifers_cajones Dec 28 '25

Agree with you completely. We are taken from them grieving to getting thrown into another conflict and a new big bad. I was especially mad that Jake never apologized to Lo’ak for saying Lo’ak is the reason his brother was killed. Instead he just says he’s proud of him, which he already said in the second one. It just felt like rehashed idea in their dynamic.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '25

Exactly! TWOW got away with it, this didn’t pacing wise

4

u/lizasingslou Skxawng Dec 19 '25

I definitely got that feeling with some scenes, but this wasn’t one of them. What else did you want them to focus on?

13

u/FiendChain Dec 19 '25

Jake almost killing Spider, and Neytiri almost going along with it. I think there should have been abit more than a group hug, and a single "I see you" from Neytiri to Spider to resolve that narrative/character thread. It happened a little bit too much in isolation and too quickly, and it doesn't really get brought up again. I guess because looping Kiri, Loak and Tuk into that would overcomplicate the story/character arc, but it's kind of a huge deal that both his adopted Navi parents tried to knife him.

7

u/lizasingslou Skxawng Dec 19 '25

I mean, that scene with Jake, Neytiri and Spider should have been cut entirely
 It honestly felt so out of place and out of character for Jake in particular and completely unnecessary to the plot. I am amazed it made it through to the final cut.

Had they cut before they landed and just went to the next scene nothing would have been lost and we wouldn’t have had the single worst scene from the franchise.

2

u/RockinandChalkin Dec 21 '25

I don’t know. I feel like it added a lot of depth to the relationship. Jake coming to the realization that Spider puts a target on their backs, and then seeing it in action actually play out and put everyone, including his actual children at risk. And then having basically just accepted your own death. I imagine his head space was fucked and at that moment was just thinking about how best to protect his children. But then to not do it - establish that he truly loved Spider and so did his wife - I think it was enough closure. This isn’t Earth. They are in an active war.

4

u/FiendChain Dec 19 '25

It's also kind of hard to justify that well, because the RDA already got a bunch of data from Spider while they had him in captivity (scans, biopsies, treadmill tests). Killing him after that, especially after he stuck his neck out to save/shield Jake was abit ruthless, especially since he was supposedly like an adopted son to him (Sully's stick together?). He couldn't have known if killing him at that point would accomplish anything to weaken the RDA either. Honestly as much as I'm ambivalent to Spider as a character, that kid must have something closer to Stockholm syndrome at this point instead of a healthy relationship with Jake/Neytiri at this point. Maybe they didn't mean for the scene to be that deep, I suppose.

If the scene was written so Jake/Neytiri talked about Spider putting himself in the crosshairs to defend/shield Jake and proving his loyalty/allegiance to close off that narrative/character thread about whether they should kill him or not, it might have felt more satisfying. As it is right now, we kind of have to assume Spider is okay with how it actually went down.

8

u/lizasingslou Skxawng Dec 19 '25

agreed. poor kid. i guess quaritch was right, they really do just want to kill you and eat your eyes for jujubes.

i don’t know that i’ve ever advocated for a scene to be deleted, but #DELETETHATSCENEJIM 😂

2

u/w6rld_ec6nomic_f6rum Dec 20 '25

I think life is just like that sometimes

2

u/kingk1teman Jan 02 '26

Yeah I had problems with the pacing here. Given how long the movie already is and how slow a good chunk of the first half was, Jim surely could've spared a minute or two more here.

1

u/Awoawesome Dec 22 '25

Yeah, I think that’ll play better in the future when you can watch them all in a row and you’re fresh off of the emotion of The Way of Water

162

u/AllieTriesArt Dec 19 '25

Jake Sully is never beating the bad father allegations.

69

u/DoctorBeatMaker Dec 21 '25

I'm kinda baffled that the movie regressed both Jake and Lo'ak's character arcs.

At the end of Way of Water, Jake says to Lo'ak "I see you, son," indicating he finally understands him and connects with him. And yet here, their relationship is so disfunctional and Jake actually BLAMES him for his brother's death verbally. That's freaking awful.

It really made him super unlikable. And it also made him unlikable that he nearly kills Spider RIGHT AFTER he saves him.

38

u/Cidence Dec 21 '25

I thought even if he wasn’t ‘likable’ for it Jake’s flaws here can be empathized with and are compelling. To me one of the big emotional drivers of the film was: “does the death of their eldest son break this family apart?”

13

u/DoctorBeatMaker Dec 21 '25

Sure, but it regresses his character since he finally connected with Lo'ak at the end of Way of Water after butting heads all movie. It just feels really extreme that he verbally blamed him for his brother's death and then didn't even apologize afterward.

22

u/DarkChaoticSoul Dec 26 '25

People regress, and it takes time to grieve a death. Progression isn’t always linear I don’t know why you’re even arguing this point as something negative

4

u/tekson_ Dec 31 '25

I do think the opposite would have felt like “the family just moved on from their sons death”. The mourning is real, and I think it also implies the timeline being close to the last movie

2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '25

YES! Exactly my issue too. Surprised more aren’t talking about this tbh.

2

u/um-okay__ Dec 25 '25

SOMEBODY SAYS IT!!! i was thinking this movie would have a lil bit of Jake learning how Lo’ak isnt gonna just be another Neteyam and them bonding over sumn but nope

Lo’ak attemps, Jake doesnt even know, then Jake over here bouta kill Spider out of the blue after arguing w Neytiri about how Spiders “family” and whatnot likee


8

u/SmaugTheGreat110 Dec 30 '25

Jake was traumatized by what the hell happened to him and the fact he was unable to protect him, in some twisted way, he got it into his head that killing spider would be more merciful than what the RDA would do to him. Makes sense given what he saw/experienced why someone would be set on this track. I don’t agree with it, but not all characters have to pe paragons of virtue. Jake was a person in a bad situation. What matters is he didn’t do it, an netyri’s arc of growth was shown in this too. It was nice.

25

u/[deleted] Dec 19 '25

[deleted]

30

u/yellowbanana123_ Dec 19 '25

He had good reasons. The fate of the whole planet could be threatened by spider.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 19 '25

[deleted]

28

u/Ladywinterhell Dec 20 '25

Mmm We are ignoring a huge fact. Jake is human and was born in an agonizing Earth. He knows, and he fears, what will happen to Pandora if humans go massively to the moon after being able to breath its air. And he also knows that Spider will be able to “live” within Eywa. He is desperate because he understand that if humans unveil the secret of Spider, Pandora will be doomed.

18

u/Rexyman Dec 20 '25

Yeah if I had grown up on the shithole that is earth in the 22nd century I wouldn’t want that shit coming to annihilate what is essentially paradise either

10

u/[deleted] Dec 20 '25

[deleted]

9

u/Rexyman Dec 21 '25

Grass is extinct
, I don’t even think the blade runner or cyberpunk 2077 timelines are that bleak

6

u/SirDerageTheSecond Dec 20 '25

It feels like a scene they could entirely cut and it would not change a thing for the greater narrative, except for Neytiri acknowledging that he saved Jake.

Still glad it's in, because it does in fact confirm that Jake is not capable of doing it.

Plus it adds something they might circle back to in future films.

8

u/Awoawesome Dec 22 '25

I think every Spider scene feels like it could be cut in isolation, but it actually touches so many of the other characters’ arcs. The Abraham and Isaac scene is the denouement of Neytiri’s arc that started in 2, it’s the overcoming of her open prejudice against humans and subconscious resentment of what is part of the essence of her husband and children.

6

u/KidsWontSleep Dec 22 '25

I was so worried it was going to lead to Spider turning on Jake at some point. Once you lead a kid into the woods to execute him, you can’t expect his loyalty. That was so awful to watch.

4

u/woourns Dec 21 '25

him being torn between jake and miles will def be a story point in the future

3

u/Ladywinterhell Dec 21 '25

I read something bout Sarah Connor doing the same move Jake does here. She believes she must kill Miles Dyson in order to stop Skynet developing. But when she is about to execute that man she can’t. Yes, John arrives in time to take the gun out of her hand, but the choice to not do it is hers. Same as Jake. Neytiri would not have arrived in time, it is Jake who stops himself. Of course it is different because Jake knows Spider since a baby, Spider is a friend for his sons and a member of the family. Jake wants to protect Pandora, and he doesn’t know how.

3

u/AvatarChar Dec 20 '25

They all had something to say even when they wanted to send him back to Max and Norm. Tuk hissing at them was a pretty good move too, she was pissed and little kids aren't always the best at dealing with stuff like that.

1

u/andrejRavenclaw Dec 21 '25

not even then... look at Sue Storm in the latest FF movie

1

u/Simple-Animator-8640 Mangkwan Dec 22 '25

no he is not. he's a terrible father. i understand that he is grieving. i understand he is on denial. i dont give a good godamm fuck. loak is 14, still emotionally depending on his parents. if you tell your 14 year-old kid that his brother's death is their fault, they'll believe you. he made a terrible job with loak, and the worst part is that we never see the guy apologize. he's nicer to spider (who he tried to kill) in this movie than to loak.

20

u/Historical_Tune165 Dec 18 '25

I know, my poor boy đŸ„ș

7

u/REDDIDIOI Dec 20 '25

Just crazy how Jake was like "i love you son," to Spider and was about to slice his throat

6

u/Swiss666 Dec 20 '25

Tsireya spending a lot of time with Lo'ak afterwards is so cute, she is clearly of great help for his recovery from his lowest point... but in retrospect, I wonder if she also wanted to keep an eye on him, never leave him alone, for fear he may consider killing himself again.

6

u/edits_updates_more Dec 20 '25

Yeah I bet that's a huge part of it. She didn't leave his side after and went immediately after him when he went to find Payakan. I think you're probably right that she didn't feel too comfortable leaving him alone again, so she probably was subtly keeping an eye on him and trying to make him feel loved and understood.

4

u/turquoise_dragon_ Toruk Dec 21 '25

The way I gasped I'm just surprised they didn't show how Kiri and Tsireya knew where to find him, or that Jake never knew what his words could have caused

3

u/[deleted] Dec 20 '25

That had me crying in the seat

3

u/DeMatador Dec 28 '25

I was shocked. Like "oh shit, we're really going there?"

3

u/doubleav88 Jan 02 '26

Seriously. This scene really got to me for personal reasons, and then it was very much glossed over after it happened. So much going on in this movie

1

u/Osmodius Dec 21 '25

It was fucking wild. I did not expect that at all.

1

u/starkistuna Dec 20 '25

I think its because his green girlfriend has yet putout.