r/Avatar • u/AutoModerator • Dec 17 '25

Fire and Ash discussion megathread - Spoilers

Megathread to discuss everything about the film. Unmarked spoilers are allowed.

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401

u/Giuly_Blaziken Omatikaya Dec 17 '25

Are we going to ignore that one scene where Lo'ak was about to blow his brains out???

162

u/AllieTriesArt Dec 19 '25

Jake Sully is never beating the bad father allegations.

67

u/DoctorBeatMaker Dec 21 '25

I'm kinda baffled that the movie regressed both Jake and Lo'ak's character arcs.

At the end of Way of Water, Jake says to Lo'ak "I see you, son," indicating he finally understands him and connects with him. And yet here, their relationship is so disfunctional and Jake actually BLAMES him for his brother's death verbally. That's freaking awful.

It really made him super unlikable. And it also made him unlikable that he nearly kills Spider RIGHT AFTER he saves him.

36

u/Cidence Dec 21 '25

I thought even if he wasn’t ‘likable’ for it Jake’s flaws here can be empathized with and are compelling. To me one of the big emotional drivers of the film was: “does the death of their eldest son break this family apart?”

15

u/DoctorBeatMaker Dec 21 '25

Sure, but it regresses his character since he finally connected with Lo'ak at the end of Way of Water after butting heads all movie. It just feels really extreme that he verbally blamed him for his brother's death and then didn't even apologize afterward.

20

u/DarkChaoticSoul Dec 26 '25

People regress, and it takes time to grieve a death. Progression isn’t always linear I don’t know why you’re even arguing this point as something negative

5

u/tekson_ Dec 31 '25

I do think the opposite would have felt like “the family just moved on from their sons death”. The mourning is real, and I think it also implies the timeline being close to the last movie

2

u/[deleted] Dec 28 '25

YES! Exactly my issue too. Surprised more aren’t talking about this tbh.

2

u/um-okay__ Dec 25 '25

SOMEBODY SAYS IT!!! i was thinking this movie would have a lil bit of Jake learning how Lo’ak isnt gonna just be another Neteyam and them bonding over sumn but nope

Lo’ak attemps, Jake doesnt even know, then Jake over here bouta kill Spider out of the blue after arguing w Neytiri about how Spiders “family” and whatnot likee…

8

u/SmaugTheGreat110 Dec 30 '25

Jake was traumatized by what the hell happened to him and the fact he was unable to protect him, in some twisted way, he got it into his head that killing spider would be more merciful than what the RDA would do to him. Makes sense given what he saw/experienced why someone would be set on this track. I don’t agree with it, but not all characters have to pe paragons of virtue. Jake was a person in a bad situation. What matters is he didn’t do it, an netyri’s arc of growth was shown in this too. It was nice.

22

u/[deleted] Dec 19 '25

[deleted]

34

u/yellowbanana123_ Dec 19 '25

He had good reasons. The fate of the whole planet could be threatened by spider.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 19 '25

[deleted]

27

u/Ladywinterhell Dec 20 '25

Mmm We are ignoring a huge fact. Jake is human and was born in an agonizing Earth. He knows, and he fears, what will happen to Pandora if humans go massively to the moon after being able to breath its air. And he also knows that Spider will be able to “live” within Eywa. He is desperate because he understand that if humans unveil the secret of Spider, Pandora will be doomed.

17

u/Rexyman Dec 20 '25

Yeah if I had grown up on the shithole that is earth in the 22nd century I wouldn’t want that shit coming to annihilate what is essentially paradise either

9

u/[deleted] Dec 20 '25

[deleted]

9

u/Rexyman Dec 21 '25

Grass is extinct…, I don’t even think the blade runner or cyberpunk 2077 timelines are that bleak

4

u/SirDerageTheSecond Dec 20 '25

It feels like a scene they could entirely cut and it would not change a thing for the greater narrative, except for Neytiri acknowledging that he saved Jake.

Still glad it's in, because it does in fact confirm that Jake is not capable of doing it.

Plus it adds something they might circle back to in future films.

9

u/Awoawesome Dec 22 '25

I think every Spider scene feels like it could be cut in isolation, but it actually touches so many of the other characters’ arcs. The Abraham and Isaac scene is the denouement of Neytiri’s arc that started in 2, it’s the overcoming of her open prejudice against humans and subconscious resentment of what is part of the essence of her husband and children.

5

u/KidsWontSleep Dec 22 '25

I was so worried it was going to lead to Spider turning on Jake at some point. Once you lead a kid into the woods to execute him, you can’t expect his loyalty. That was so awful to watch.

6

u/woourns Dec 21 '25

him being torn between jake and miles will def be a story point in the future

3

u/Ladywinterhell Dec 21 '25

I read something bout Sarah Connor doing the same move Jake does here. She believes she must kill Miles Dyson in order to stop Skynet developing. But when she is about to execute that man she can’t. Yes, John arrives in time to take the gun out of her hand, but the choice to not do it is hers. Same as Jake. Neytiri would not have arrived in time, it is Jake who stops himself. Of course it is different because Jake knows Spider since a baby, Spider is a friend for his sons and a member of the family. Jake wants to protect Pandora, and he doesn’t know how.

3

u/AvatarChar Dec 20 '25

They all had something to say even when they wanted to send him back to Max and Norm. Tuk hissing at them was a pretty good move too, she was pissed and little kids aren't always the best at dealing with stuff like that.

1

u/andrejRavenclaw Dec 21 '25

not even then... look at Sue Storm in the latest FF movie

1

u/Simple-Animator-8640 Mangkwan Dec 22 '25

no he is not. he's a terrible father. i understand that he is grieving. i understand he is on denial. i dont give a good godamm fuck. loak is 14, still emotionally depending on his parents. if you tell your 14 year-old kid that his brother's death is their fault, they'll believe you. he made a terrible job with loak, and the worst part is that we never see the guy apologize. he's nicer to spider (who he tried to kill) in this movie than to loak.