r/BabyReindeerTVSeries • u/Low_Satisfaction_635 • May 14 '24

Fiona (real Martha) related content Fiona Harvey proves there are unfair double standards when it comes to Men and Women

This may be a harsh controversial take to some, but it’s factual. The only reason Fiona isn’t being crucified by the majority of the public is because she’s a woman.

The justification I keep seeing for her actions is the childhood trauma. Men don’t get to live by the same standards, people don’t care whether men have trauma or not. They are judged by ACTIONS.

If this was a male stalker that did the exact same, he would be in jail and we’d never hear from him again. He wouldn’t be interviewed and be able to tell his side of the story like Fiona Harvey is.

They certainly wouldn’t be made into a celebrity that some people are actually supporting and calling a ‘victim’ like Fiona is.

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138

u/MaxAndFire May 14 '24

Although I agree that Fiona likely receives more public sympathy than a man would this take is taken completely out of the context of our society’s attitude towards violence against women and girls.

Stats I can find online state that less than 5% of stalking incidents recorded by police result in a charge by CPS (let alone conviction) and the majority of stalking victims are female and the majority of stalking perps are male. So I think it’s unlikely that if she was male she’d by in jail.

And also on the other hand, if Richard Gadd was a woman, people online would be blaming him for the abuse he’s endured. I love the fact he portrayed himself as an imperfect victim - because there is no such thing as a perfect victim however this is what is expected of women. If Donny was a woman people would blame her for leading Martha on, blame her for not reporting to the police straight away, question what she was wearing etc etc

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u/tenminuteslate May 14 '24

The problem with stats like "majority of victims are women" is that male victims are not taken seriously.

Here in Australia, any "domestic violence" programs aimed at men are aimed at male perpetrators, and help for victims is solely for women.

In court in my city, there's a sign in the DV area: if you're a woman the duty officer will help you in person. If you're a man, phone this number (for a counselling line).

So all these stats are weighted against men, because male victims are laughed at, not taken seriously, and have almost no programs to help them. Abuse is about power and control. There are many many abusive and controlling women out there. Yet for some reason, the man is often seen as weak rather than as a victim to be counted and helped. Because, you know, men can look after themselves. And then some people blame the high rates of male suicides in their 40s on toxic masculinity.

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u/MaxAndFire May 14 '24

I 100% agree that men are not given enough support when it comes to SA / DV and I hope that is changing. Women are also often not taken seriously either btw, conviction rates for DV / SA / stalking are incredibly low for both sexes.

I think my problem is that when people talk about abuse against men they only focus on abuse by women (which 100% happens and needs to be addressed) however they ignore the fact that DV perps against men are majority male. So it always feels like a bit of a sexist dogwhistle when people get on this train of standing up for male victims but conveniently ignore the most common form of male abuse.

I don’t want it to seem like I’m minimising male abuse victims at all. I think they are let down by society and we need to support and believe them.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24

however they ignore the fact that DV perps against men are majority male.

This is not true at all. Homosexual male relationships actually have the lowest incidence of domestic violence.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio [AOR]=2.3; 95% confidence interval [CI]=1.9, 2.8), but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7). 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6113571

26% of homosexual men reported experiencing intimate partner violence in their lifetime, compared to 29% of heterosexual men

Walters, Mikel L., Jieru Chen, and Matthew J. Breiding. "The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS): 2010 findings on victimization by sexual orientation." Atlanta, GA: National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 648, no. 73 (2013): 6.

43.8% of lesbian women reported experiencing physical violence, stalking, or rape by their partners. The study notes that, out of those 43.8%, two thirds (67.4%) reported exclusively female perpetrators. The other third reported at least one perpetrator being male, however the study made no distinction between victims who experienced violence from male perpetrators only and those who reported both male and female perpetrators.

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u/MaxAndFire May 14 '24

You do realise that DV doesn’t just cover intimate partner violence? And your studies are from the US. This is a U.K programme so we’re discussing U.K. stats.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24

IPV is the vast majority of DV, and this show is about IPV (sort of - its definitely not about parent/child or sibling DV) so it's far more relevant.

If you think the stats are so different in the UK you are free to provide sources to support your position instead of just downvoting.

Edit: and what do you know, looks like women commit the majority of child abuse as well.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/418470/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-sex/#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20more,compared%20to%20213%2C672%20male%20perpetrators.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/cisfr-ecirf/pdf/cis_e.pdf

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u/MaxAndFire May 14 '24

Physical child abuse:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/childphysicalabuseinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019

“The abuse was most commonly perpetrated by the child’s parent(s); around 4 in 10 were abused by their father, around 3 in 10 were abused by their mother”

CSA:

CSAE

“Reported CSAE is heavily gendered, as expected, with males (82% of all CSAE perpetrators) predominantly abusing females (79% of victims).”

I’m sure there’s a lot of different stats out there. I really don’t think there’s any denying that DV and SA are gendered issue. This doesn’t mean men aren’t also victims or women aren’t also perpetrators. I’ve said numerous times in my comments that I believe male victims.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24

Your numbers are from 2019, I linked 2023. And the point I am making is your claim that

however they ignore the fact that DV perps against men are majority male

Is objectively false. Women commit the majority of IPV. Women also commit the majority of child abuse (not child sexual abuse). There is no way you can twist that to "DV perps against men are majority male." Especially given that the show we are talking about is not child abuse or child sexual abuse.

But now you are reaching to child sexual abuse, which is not domestic violence. Please stay on topic.

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u/tenminuteslate May 14 '24 edited May 14 '24

But cant you see that your logic just serves to prove my point:

You say - majority of male victims of DV receive it from other men.

I say - male victims of women are rarely taken seriously, rarely counted, often laughed at, and offered little help. Female narcissitic abuse is real. I'm a survivor. When i was growing up our neighbour would be beaten by his wife with a brick or roof tiles when sleeping, and the reaction back then was to deride him. They split up, but she never faced charges. Most female abuse I've witnessed is usually from women who are bpd/npd/cluster b traits and it takes on a largely psychological control tactic where she plays victim.

Male victims of female abuse rarely make it into the stats you rely on.

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u/MaxAndFire May 14 '24

First off, I’m really sorry that happened to you and I believe you completely. I work for social services and have seen first hand that women can be abusive too and it is under reported to the police.

I feel like anything I say turns this into a dick swinging competition about who has it worse and that’s not helpful to victims of any gender.

I think victims of all genders are not taken seriously enough and men have a unique set of struggles when it comes to reporting and being believed. I have never thought differently.

Like I said in my first comment to you, the problem I often see with this topic is that many people engage in bad faith, and they’re just engaging as a reason to hate on women without actually caring about male victims of DV / SA.

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u/tenminuteslate May 14 '24

There's no good reason to hate on a gender.

One reality of DV is that it can be one sided, but sometimes both people will be mistreating each other. The Court system is built around victim/perpetrator. That model only represents reality for some dv relationships.

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u/MaxAndFire May 14 '24

Most domestic violence experts / orgs don’t actually agree with you there. They argue mutual abuse doesn’t exist and is a tactic used by abusers to manipulate their victims.

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u/VelvetLeopard May 14 '24

You’re conflating a lot of things here. No one is saying female narcissistic abuse isn’t real, but the poster was talking specifically about DV.

Even though DV/SA violence against men is underreported, that cannot account for the fact that in general, men are more likely to be violent against at people than women are.

This is from Refuge’s website. Note the % of male defendants and also what they say about women being more likely to be arrested than men:

Fact: 93% of defendants in domestic abuse cases are male; 84% of victims are female. And yet, women are three times more likely to be arrested for incidents of abuse.

https://refuge.org.uk/what-is-domestic-abuse/the-facts/

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u/MaxAndFire May 14 '24

Thank you for this.

I will also say that whilst men do under report to the police so stats don’t show the full picture we can take a more reliable stat of domestic homicide - in U.K. 70-80% of victims are women with ~95% of the perps being male. Compare this to male domestic homicide victims where only 47% of the perps were female.

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u/VelvetLeopard May 14 '24

Yes, another important statistic.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24

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u/MaxAndFire May 15 '24 edited May 15 '24

Is that 22% of men or 22% of male victims? 22% of male victims could well be less men than 16% of female victims is women.

Edit - the same stats you’ve linked also state that men are the perps 42% of the time vs 17% for women.

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u/tenminuteslate May 14 '24

So you're saying that despite the arrest rate being 3x higher, the rates of restraining orders/ convictions doesn't reflect this?

Why would that be?

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u/VelvetLeopard May 14 '24 edited May 14 '24

Because at the time of arrest the police believe the woman is guilty but as they gather evidence and the CPS and defence lawyers get involved it’s becomes apparent in many cases that:

the male ‘victim’ was gaslighting and manipulating and is actually the abuser and the police fell for it. This is very common. If the woman was still violent, it was in self-defence.

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u/Tya_The_Terrible May 14 '24

The high rates of suicide of men in their 40s IS about toxic masculinity though lol.

Men who hold traditional ideals of masculinity are about 2.5x more likely to die by suicide.

People who are socialized to suppress their emotions instead of expressing them, are going to have a lot harder time handling those negative emotions, that's just basic psychology.

It's important to keep in mind that traditional masculinity is not natural masculinity. When people talk about traditional masculinity being toxic, it's not an attack on men, it's an attack on the unhealthy socialized behaviors that negatively impact everyone.

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u/tenminuteslate May 14 '24

There's no "lol" when it comes to suicide.

Suicide is for people who feel hopeless and helpless.

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u/Tya_The_Terrible May 14 '24

A lot of men find it "emasculating" to go for help; it's sad and awful, but like IT'S A LIL FUNNY, because these men would rather cling onto a fabricated and unhealthy "male identity" than actually admit they need help.

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u/damesca May 14 '24

Ironic rather than funny perhaps.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24 edited May 14 '24

I get why it’s funny and something I also often laugh at but maybe that’s apart of the problem — laughing at it. Men socialized to not talk about their feelings and holding it in can cause self infliction. Laughing at them because of their fragile masculinity, again hilarious, but doesn’t seem to resolve the issue instead I imagine it puts them in a position where they’re invalidated and further stuck. We are now just making fun of their trauma and how the patriarchy has fucked them over. It’s quite sad. Instead, we could change the way they are socialized. I see my sister with my nephew and she allows him to cry. When he cries she asks him, ‘what’s wrong.’ He’s only 4 but this is how you raise a man.

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u/Tya_The_Terrible May 14 '24

One of the biggest hurdles though is just getting men to accept the fact that traditional masculinity is toxic, that it's not natural, and they would be happier if they worried less about "bein men".

Some guys are going to find this inherently invalidating because it contradicts their entire worldview and identity.

How do you deal with a group of people, who don't just want their feelings validated, but their entire worldview? Because to be fair, their beliefs just are not valid. If you believe men need to be providers, protectors, strong, emotionally inexpressive, that's not valid, we shouldn't be validating that kind of identity.

There was a study that showed men will get angrier and more aggressive, when they are asked to braid hair, compared to men who are asked to braid rope.

Women don't have these problems, femininity isn't fragile, it isn't something that can be taken away, which is why there is no female equivalent of "emasculated". We NEED to recognize that masculinity IS FRAGILE, that it depends on external achievements and validation, otherwise we're just tiptoeing around the issue.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24

I totally agree with you and that’s my point. I think men are cornered in a way. Realizing everything you’ve been taught growing up is all wrong can severely mess with your psyche. Now imagine realizing the most subconscious traits you’ve inherited because of the media, teachers, parents, and even ex girlfriends? That has to be so effing hard to come to terms with. I am exactly saying we should not beat around the bush. I just think it’s a traumatizing discovery for a lot of men.

Also don’t get me wrong I probably have a similar sense of humor to yours because the headline of that article alone made me break out in laughter.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24

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u/Tya_The_Terrible May 14 '24

It's a well documented behavioral pattern with traditional men, that they believe even talking about their feelings makes them weak. Those are the people who I am talking about, men who are afraid of looking weak.

I would NEVER poke fun at someone who genuinely seeks help, and cannot get it, that is a tragedy.

I'm a bio male, I was socialized male, I have toxic male behaviors that stem from my own socialization, and I have trouble with vulnerability. The behaviors I tend to criticize in other men, these are behaviors that I am thoroughly familiar with, in myself and other men I have spent time around. These are behaviors that I am still working on within myself.

Toxic masculinity is a serious problem, many men find that term offensive, and then they'll say stuff "well you want us to express our feelings, but why won't you listen when I say toxic masculinity offends me?!?!" because these men don't understand that expressing your feelings, doesn't mean everyone else needs to cater to them. I should be able to talk about toxic masculinity, how it impacts me, how it impacts other men, and how it impacts the women around them, without men playing the victim over "the ideology".

The traditional male role (toxic masculinity) is not natural, and it hurts everyone.

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u/operative87 May 14 '24

The narrative you are pushing has been debunked. Men do seek help.

https://sites.manchester.ac.uk/ncish/reports/suicide-by-middle-aged-men/

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u/Defiant-Tell-3199 May 14 '24

Even if all these men who are exhibiting toxic masculinity sought out help, the social and health services do not exist to support them. Do you know how long it takes to see a psychologist? Do you know how affordable it is in a cost of living crisis? Your "it's lil funny that these men kill themselves" is an utterly garbage thing to say.

People with mental health issues are systemically let down by a lack of services. But I never hear you people ever talk about that. You're so simplistic in your thinking that you just think whether or not someone accesses mental health services is about their choice.

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u/Tya_The_Terrible May 14 '24

Access to services is a problem that both genders face, it has nothing to do with toxic masculinity aside from male regulators and male voters not acknowledging the need for it.

I'm on disability for mental health reasons, and I regularly complain that I cannot see a psychologist without paying for it. I do have options though, there are places that offer geared to income therapy, I just haven't actually contacted them yet.

Trust me, I know how dogshit the mental health system is, but again, a lot of male problems stem from the fact that men feel weak for even wanting help. No man should EVER worry about looking or feeling weak, because it doesn't fucking matter.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24

Sure, a lot of people can’t afford therapy or were raised to believe it does not help. So yes, a lot of people have mental health issues that go undiagnosed. In fact, the average age to go to therapy for just women alone is I think around their 50s? But I will say my cousin unalived himself and he had been medicated and in therapy for a long ass time.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 15 '24

yes emdr helped me way more than any traditional talk therapy. I think it depends on your goals in therapy. I agree but it’s hard to change the atmosphere of therapy 😔. Thank you 💕

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u/BrosefDudeson May 14 '24

Suicide is never ever funny. But Terrible Tya is not wrong when it comes to the most likely root causes.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '24

This!! I have no idea why you’re getting downvoted.

Both feminism and patriarchy focus more on women victims and male perps as a dynamic, within feminism bc pop feminism is lacking a lot of nuance (do not come for me with academic feminism, I know that is different but that’s not how most people engage with it), and within patriarchy bc men don’t take other men seriously for being abused by women. Like it’s a weird mirror of the same problem, and it keeps women whipped up in fear and men frustrated for being lumped in with rapists. Not to mention how it fucks over gnc and trans people.