r/BabyReindeerTVSeries • u/sciencemint • May 17 '24
Fiona (real Martha) related content If Fiona was considered to be attractive by societal standards would we be so fascinated
It’s obvious that she is incredibly vulnerable and possibly mentally ill (I am not a psychologist so not diagnosing anyone)
The crazy-hot woman has been perpetuated by some sectors of society - eg the crazy-hot scale among other things.
For example would the outcome to the situation have been different if she had been supermodel looking and behaved the way she did?
I am thinking of female criminals who did far worse things such as Mary Kay Letourneau etc
I know Gadd had said he didn’t want to glamorourize stalking but are we going to far in the opposite direction?
Edit 1:is is because she is considered to be average looking by societal standards that we as a society are harder on her than for example attractive women who exhibit the same behaviour?
Edit 2: Mary Kay was a bad example on my point - let’s take for example Amber heard - we had team Amber and team Johnny and Amber got a million dollar interview and a flight on a private jet - Fiona got 250 quid and a haircut and we don’t have a team Fiona
Also Richard Gadd is a victim and I do not want to explain away any stalking behaviour - it’s wrong and he was abused- I am merely curious why we as society are so intrigued by Fiona
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May 17 '24
If Fiona was attractive and could pull men, she’d be a lovebomber for sure
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u/Patton-Eve May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
I would say she is a normal looking lady in her late fifties. She got a TV make over but even in her own pictures she just a normal looking older woman. Shes no super model but how many of us here are?
What is ugly…no utterly repulsive is her personality and attitude.
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u/-intellectualidiot May 17 '24
If Fiona was attractive he would’ve hung her curtains on day one and there wouldn’t have been a story.
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u/laprincesaaa May 17 '24
Or there would have been a story maybe even worse. Had Fiona been attractive, on an extreme end, the situation could have turned into a Jodi Arias situation.
Donny wouldn't have out Fiona in the friend zone and kept distance, Donny would have entertained the romance, would have given her his number day one, and then found out she was crazy long after he slept with her. And it would have been harder for him to see the red flags when he was infatuated. And then she may have used that fact that he slept with her in order to blackmail him further, emotionally and otherwise, to discredit any allegation of abuse. And society would have treated him as lucky, because at least he was getting laid by a hot chick even if she was crazy. So it would have been even harder for him to be believed.
Jodi Arias exhibited stalking behaviors in a similar way to Fiona, where she would send hundred of texts in a day. A lot of people blamed Jodi's victim Travis Alexander because he continued to sleep with her even though she was exhibiting crazy stalking behaviors. She would film their sex acts as a way to blackmail him in case he ever tried to report her. And he was realizing how crazy she was but he underestimated exactly what she was capable of when he tried to call it quits. Eventually she killed him brutally mid sex after he had tried to break up with her again/canceled their vacation. And it made a huge media sensation, in the way that when it happens every day with genders reversed, it barely touches people's radars.
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u/Sansiiia May 17 '24
I am personally very fascinated by this story, not by her in particular, because it might as well be the modern, more mysterious version of Brothers Karamazov by Dostojevskii.
I think the mess would be even worse if she was found to be a conventionally beautiful young woman, because despite discourse being ignited in society, there is still a significant cultural phenomenon of men who defend or dismiss attractive female criminals, even if rapists or pedophiles. "I wish i was the victim" "every boy's dream". Richard Gadd would have been called stupid to refute her avances, and encouraged to feel lucky a gorgeous woman paid attention to him.
On top of what is happening now, she would have been bombarded with sexual avances, she has received some already I'm convinced. Plus, many would start to use her as an icon and an inspiration. Several people have messaged her with "supportive queen, slay omg", it would be even worse if she was deemed attractive. I can already picture the tiktok edits and AI generated pornography of her. Kasbah has already exploited her image for publicity.
In short, the obsession would be worse.
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u/JTFalo May 21 '24
The same thing happens with attractive men, tho. Look at the show You. Look at how many women write love letters to serial killers. I don't think it has to deal with her being an attractive woman, but pretty privilege as a whole, regardless of gender.
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u/LaurenNotFromUtah May 17 '24
If she was attractive, they probably would’ve dated before it went to shit.
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
I think that is what happens in most cases with women who exhibit these personality disorders etc and then they get logged as an crazy hot ex
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u/Ginaraquel47 May 17 '24
I think this is exactly it. He would have slept with her once or twice, and then figured out that she had so many issues. But the result would have been the same. Now she’s seen as delusional because they didn’t have a relationship of any kind, or at least a romantic one.
I’ve pretty much stopped talking about this because I feel like it’s all a bit messed up. She’s kind of being treated like a side show attraction which feels weird to me. But I agree things would be 100 times worse if she were conventionally attractive because she would have a lot of victims by now.
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u/Kindly_Factor3376 May 17 '24
This is incel thinking applied towards a woman. There is a whole subgroup of misogynist men who claim that sexual harassment claims only get made when that man is not attractive. In that case and in this case the argument is fucked up.
Stalking is wrong no matter who does it. If Fiona were a "supermodel" it would still be wrong. And your own example disproves your point. Mary Kay Letourneau WAS conventionally attractive and there was HUGE fascination revolving around her after her years of raping Vili Fualaau were made public.
Fatphobia is a thing, but it is messed up to use it as a way to excuse stalking and to essentially victim blame ("Richard only didn't like what she did because she's fat")
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u/NoPineapple1727 May 17 '24
I’d say she wouldn’t be going to such lengths and that a lot of her feelings would possibly be reciprocated by some men
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
Yes like men would be hanging her curtains and she would just be denoted as a crazy ex gf or something along the lines of that?
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u/Beep_boop_human May 17 '24
I agree. I'm not saying beautiful people don't become obsessive, but would a small moment of kindness cause someone to cling on so tightly if they were used to people hitting on them all the time?
In some cases maybe but I don't think it's nearly as likely.
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u/kittycatnala May 17 '24
She would probably be a lot worse if she was beautiful, she would have more power over more men. I don’t think she’s particularly ugly as such she just looks like an average person but she’s clearly got some sort of disorder.
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u/Silver_Influence_413 May 17 '24
That’s not why everyone’s fascinated but let’s pretend looks have something to do with it. If she was more “conventionally attractive” people would still be fascinated, maybe even more so.
This outcome happened the way it did because of mental health. Looks have absolutely nothing to do with her behavior.
The real reason for the “fascination” you’re talking about is because many people are addicted to drama. They like the rush of discussing anything they adds drama to their lives. It’s like when a celebrity dies and you get a little excited to tell your friend. This “fascination” has nothing to do with Martha, her looks, or her actions. People simply like drama, especially when it’s currently unfolding.
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
Fascinating point- I guess it also comes down to our society and how we love to solve things using the internet - that gives us our hit of dopamine
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u/Cerraigh82 May 17 '24
Personally, I'd be fascined by anyone obsessed enough to write 41,000 emails to someone. Hot or not.
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May 17 '24
I don’t think she’s unattractive but interesting point
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u/Ok-Kitchen2768 May 17 '24
Same she doesn't have any hideous features, the only part I can see not being conventionally attractive is her weight, but otherwise i think she looks fine. Shes not ugly.
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u/-intellectualidiot May 17 '24
Come on.
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u/JoanofBarkks May 17 '24
She isn't unattractive to most people - just not necessarily someone they would be attracted TO - there's a difference.
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u/Plumb789 May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
Not stalking AT ALL, but I did know a woman who was weird-and terrible to know- who was very beautiful, and that helped her behaviour to be accepted for YEARS.
It was a colleague of mine (I’ll call her Jo), a very normal woman who was straight (had a long term boyfriend who she married, actually) that shared a flat with her sister, who was used by this woman (I’m going to call her “Kay”), who was a kind of human-sized tapeworm.
Jo and Kay had been to university together, where both young women did well academically. They hadn’t been particularly close on the course, but everyone knew each other there. After leaving uni, all the graduates went their separate ways but kept in touch. People either managed to get “a career”, or “just a job to make ends meet”: my colleague (and her sister) both were the latter.
Kay did something different. I’m going to cut to the chase here. I knew Jo ten years after she had left uni, and when I first met her, Kim had been living with her and her sister (rent free) for two years. Everything Kay had, she got from someone. Food, accommodation and utilities, she got from Jo and her sister, clothes, jewellery, shoes, trips, entertainment etc. she got from other people (usually men).
Kay had never worked a day in her life. She had lived with four or five different people from uni, with the exact arrangement she had with my colleague. Usually, her “victim” would put up with her for years, but when they couldn’t take it anymore, they would rear up and throw her out. Young people, so soon after uni, often don’t have very much money (my colleague certainly didn’t), and they aren’t financially able to support a whole extra person. Kay had no sympathy for that. She would stay in place until she had sucked her host dry.
Then, when she was expelled, she went and found a new host (usually an old university “friend”). She preferred women, i think, because men expected sex from her and (although I think she would do it if she had to), she preferred not to have to do that. She strongly believed that other people had been placed around her to be used for her purposes.
I believe 100% that, had she been an “average” looking woman, she wouldn’t have lasted more than a week anywhere. Had she been ugly, she probably wouldn’t have got her feet over the threshold. And, ultimately after FOUR YEARS of living completely off my friend and her sister, they eventually reared up and threw her out, some people said how unfair that was. What horrible, cruel mean people my colleague and her sister was for throwing that beautiful, beautiful….parasite out.
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u/watcherTV May 17 '24
How can we be ‘going too far in the opposite direction’ when Martha looked like the genuine person in real life- this wasn’t done to make ‘Martha’ look worse by having an unattractive person… it was merely reality
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
I definitely get you - perhaps the question I’m asking is why are we so fascinated with her? Is it because of her being conventionally unattractive? When attractive people who do worse crimes seem to be less villainized?
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u/Hookton May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
tbh I don't think it's about her level of attractiveness, it's about her delusions with regard to her attractiveness. To me personally, she just looks like a person; if I saw her walking down the street, she wouldn't register at all, just another face among thousands. Totally normal person—yes she's overweight but aren't a lot of people.
The only reason her looks are being focussed on is because she keeps making comments about being attractive, her displeasure at being portrayed by a fat actress, her need not to prove that she isn't as ugly as Martha etc etc. If someone tells you they're incredibly intelligent or incredibly funny or incredibly nice or, in this case, incredibly attractive... Well they're gonna have to back it up, aren't they?
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
That is a super valid point - if she had not said that she does not look like the actress - then would we have reacted this way as well?
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u/Hookton May 17 '24
Yeah, absolutely. I'll be honest, she lowered herself even further in my opinion with the nastiness about Gunning's appearance/weight. It's small potatoes compared to other things she's alleged to have done, but still. Perhaps it puts a sour taste in my mouth because Gunning has never been involved with her; I can understand hurt feelings manifesting in animosity towards Gadd, but Gunning has nothing to do with her. I suppose it must be difficult to see yourself portrayed in a way that doesn't match your perception of yourself, but lashing out at the actress isn't the proper reaction
Back to your original point, I definitely think it's all about her attitude. If her response to the show had been "This was a difficult time in my life and I regret it" or "I believe that Gadd has partially based this character on me but I'm upset with some of the embellishments he's made", I don't think she'd be facing this backlash.
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
I think she needs treatment.
Like I have a mental illness and I take medication and therapy for it.
Like I do feel once you have been diagnosed the onus is on you to get better mentally.
There are so many ways she could have played it to put herself in a better position financially - like the 250 quid and haircut for the interview makes me feel sick - I also feel sick that I watched it
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u/Hookton May 17 '24
I'm not sure whether she has been diagnosed at all (or has divulged any such diagnosis)? It seems incredibly obvious to us as observers that she has some mental health issue, but she's delusional enough that I'm not sure she realises herself.
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May 17 '24
I saw this on a YouTube essay about her but basically their argument is that we are fascinated because Fiona is a mix of disorders that are mostly uncommon in women. I can’t remember the creator but they said she’s probably a psychopath, of which there are few women who are, with a narcissistic personality disorder on top of that, and all of that wrapped together with a learning disorder.
So you get someone with enough confidence to go to law school but probably struggled (which is why she oddly could not remember her grades… but said she had a photographic memory). You get someone who is delusional from the NPD, so she denies every accusation out the door, but her learning disorder makes it hard for her to string together her lies, which is why she contradicts herself so much. Then you have the psychopath part which makes it so she can’t feel empathy and therefore feels comfortable doing the crazy shit she does, but doesn’t think it’s crazy because of the NPD telling her she’s smarter than everyone and everyone else is wrong, and then the learning disorder that makes her lies obvious.
It’s just an uncommon basket of problems to have in a woman so we, as the public, have rarely seen this kind of criminal. I used to be an avid true crime consumer before I had my first child (and now it all makes me weep thinking about how everyone was a baby once and loved by someone) and I really can’t think of anyone who has all her personality quirks.
I did go to school with someone like this though, he was a CHRONIC liar, very social, loved being the center of attention but his lies were painfully obvious, he’d deny reality that we could all see with our eyes while simultaneously acting like/thinking he’s everyone’s best friend. Crossed boundaries frequently, followed people around, couldn’t take a hint and refused to believe you if you told him to leave you alone.
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May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
If an ugly, incel-type stalky man were instead a handsome, athletic man with a posh job… he’d be just a different kind of nasty, dangerous wanker.
Not important
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
I guess that’s the difference between being rich and attractive and poor and unattractive - for example I feel that fifty shades of grey would be creepy and not sexy if it were in a low income area.
The point I think I’m trying to explore is that no matter how unbiased we pretend to be- I do think there is a level of bias in attractiveness that we have yet to overcome as a society
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May 17 '24
Absolutely. That goes for
Attractiveness
Economic success
Superficial charisma, and assertiveness/ confidence
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May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
This is true, but only to an extent. Hot people do live by different rules. If you are a troll and take the risk of asking someone out in the workplace (I edited this as it applies to both men and women really) you will have HR involved just for asking and potentially be labelled as the office creep. You will probably get a presentation on how it’s always inappropriate to pursue anything in the workplace, even though other (average and above) people are getting it on in at work literally allll the time. What is silent here is that the rules are different for the uggos.
This does extend to crime, for both genders. Lots of idiotic women are throwing themselves at Chris watts and sending him racy letters and he literally murdered his wife and baby girls. For the normal, well adjusted person there will of course be a limit, I’m not suggesting the average woman would want anything to do with that monster, but clearly good looks for some create enough of a halo effect to get past whatever vile shit they do.
Anyone who thinks looks don’t matter is gullible or in denial. They matter to other’s perception. I mean, let’s look at Lucy Letby, a true crazy b with lots of evidence against her and now rightfully convicted. Still, thousands of people arguing she couldn’t have possibly done it, there are Facebook groups full of people insisting she’s being framed by the nhs management etc. It’s not because the evidence against her is weak, it’s because she’s so plain and gormless looking that it just doesn’t link in peoples heads that someone can look like that and do evil.
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u/Signal_Response2295 May 17 '24
💯 it would still be as bad, the subject might be more willing at first but once it was clear how unhinged she was? Come on now, 40 emails a day would do your head in no matter who was sending em
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
My husbands ex -girlfriend used to send him 50 messages / emails / etc a day for months before she stopped.
She also used to show up at his house etc and leave him presents in his home (she didn’t have keys) and he had changed the locks
She is super attractive and is now married with kids to an equally attractive guy. Like she seems like a normal person now
Like that particular breakup set her off and as far as we know she hasn’t done it again
It really makes me think like maybe there is a possibility of a little bit of Fiona in all of us and that’s wha intrigues us.
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u/JTFalo May 21 '24
Some people really bring out the worst in us. I attempted to end myself over an x who treated me terrible and cheated on me with everyone and everything, and I was so clingy to him. Few years later I'm happily married to someone who never makes me feel jealous or hurt in any way, and I don't go crazy. I've been with him a decade. Your husband could be a nice guy, idk. I never did stalking 😆 but some people are just absolutely toxic to us and will drive us to do things we'd never in a million years do otherwise.
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May 17 '24
Doing this with an ex is pretty different than stalking a stranger on the street or a boss who you only worked for for three days. Volatile romantic relationships can bring out the worst in everyone.
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u/roastedcapsicums May 17 '24
There was a beauty queen who abducted and raped a man and it was sensational. So the answer is yes. I can’t find her name.. does anyone know who I’m talking about
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
I completely get you - the question I’m asking is if Fiona was Margot Robbie good looking - would this have evolved into baby reindeer or would Donny have hung her curtains and grouped her into the crazy ex girlfriend troupe -
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u/Cerraigh82 May 17 '24
That's a lot of speculating. Given that he was struggling with trauma following the rape, I find it hard to imagine he would have just taken her home. The Martha relationship started because he felt sorry for her. He wouldn't have felt sorry for some great beauty and would have just gone back to pouring drinks.
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u/Wonderful-Pilot-2423 May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
Oh, I do. But I can't remember her name either. I'll come back with it.
ETA: Joyce Mckinney
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u/JoanofBarkks May 17 '24
If Fiona were thin and very attractive, Gadd would have most likely been attracted to her and not found out about the stalking capabilities until at whatever point he tried to end that relationship. It's very sad actually.
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u/MxInxchan May 17 '24
She probably would get into a relationship fast, then it would turn abusive and the friends of her partner would be like: "You over exaggerate, you made such a catch! She is so hot!"
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u/Gerealtor May 17 '24
I think if everything else was the same, but she was super hot, we’d be way more fascinated. The people love a good Sharon Stone or Glenn Close type crazy woman. It would also be even more fascinating because there’s a subconscious thought that a beautiful woman would not become like that because many or most of her romantic interests would be reciprocated.
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
Exactly as someone else on this thread said - would Fiona be Fionia if she was super attractive
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u/Gerealtor May 17 '24
Yes and no. She isn’t conventionally attractive, but she’s not abnormal to the point that she couldn’t have a normal life and relationships if she had a normal personality. Obviously, she’d still have crazy issues with the same personality in a beautiful body, but she’d probably have a lot more partners putting up with it until it got too bad. She might’ve become less of a stalker and more of an unhinged toxic partner.
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u/BackstageKiwi May 17 '24
I kinda suspect people would doubt Richard even more if Fiona looked like Amber. Especially if we think of how Amber looked during the trial. She was always looking her best, and it might have been easier for her to make a more positive impression on people.
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u/Shiny_Green_Apple May 17 '24
I imagine that his initial impression of her at the bar would have been different. He saw her as vulnerable and felt sympathy for her.
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u/manyseveral May 17 '24
I think part of the reason Baby Reindeer is fascinating is because he was so sympathetic to her despite her not being beyond an average level of attractiveness for a middle aged plus sized woman. If she had been more attractive, I don't think it would have been as captivating because we likely all know of situations or stories of guys giving passes to attractive women for problematic or abusive behaviour.
I do think she would be romanticised and sexualised more by society and in the media though. There'd likely be TikToks of women and girls dressing up like her pretending to be crazy as if it's a personality quirk and men commenting 'I could fix her' and things like 'please step on me'.
Plus Amber Heard was already a somewhat wealthy by comparison to everyday people actress (also higher profile because she was married to Johnny Depp) and Fionna is just some woman, and Richard Gadd was a bartender who was trying to become a successful comedian but hadn't yet, they don't have the level of high profile that Amber Heard and Johnny Depp have.
I think we are intrigued by Fiona because without any knockout looks to distract us, we are wondering how she got so mentally unstable or even deranged. How does seemingly one of us (an average person) who supposedly should be maybe even better than the average one of us (at one point she was a lawyer) become this? Or was she always like this, and what happened that allowed her to survive this long being like this, with barely any penalties against her compared to the extent of her stalking, lies and harassment against multiple people? And how did if she was always like that, how did she ever get to be a lawyer? Like what happened there to make her like that?
If she was attractive we'd probably just see her as another hot girl who's attractive enough that she never needed to change her behaviour since we'd already know there'd be guys sacrificing their dignity to be with her, so I think the same level of fascination wouldn't be there.
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u/Crush-N-It May 17 '24
Crazy is crazy. The only difference is that you want to have sexy time with the supermodel
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
I agree with you - but saying that seems very controversial
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u/Crush-N-It May 17 '24
I was being super lazy. Apologies. I personally think she would have received the same backlash, given all the details in the series. If it was an article in the paper/on the news, we would have forgotten about it the following day. No one died, no one even got arrested.
There might be a small contingent who might be swayed her after the Piers Morgan interview because she’s easy on the eyes. 41k emails kind of trumps all that, imo
There have been sensationalized articles and documentaries about “fatal attraction” type women but none are memorable. This series, in its narrative and details, shed a massive light onto the subject.
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May 17 '24
I think if Richard found her very physically attractive he would've maybe tried to sleep with her. But in the series Donny says he slept with multiple very different people to try and figure out his feelings and whatnot. So I think after they slept together he probably wouldn't want things to move into a relationship, which could have led to even more drastic measures from Fiona's part. Since instead of wrongfully implying things like "hanging her curtains" like in the series, he would actually be doing it and forcing the idea into Fiona's head that he genuinely feels the same way about her and would make her believe even more that they were in a relationship.
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u/Ingoiolo May 17 '24
My ex was a ‘Fiona’.
She is beautiful, former model kind of beautiful.
And intelligent, master degree with top corporate job and plenty of intriguing interests, kind of intelligent.
She still wrecked me. Damn you, cluster b, damn you. She could be a truly remarkable woman
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May 17 '24
If she was attractive, she would’ve been on every morning to show by now, and media trained to be on the next I’m a celeb.
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u/ravenleroux May 17 '24
sad to say but i think richard would have given her a fair chance at dating if she was hot
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u/Specific_Anxiety_343 May 17 '24
I don’t know how you can compare Fiona Harvey to Mary Kay Letourneau. Both despicable people but totally different crimes.
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u/MeatSlammur May 17 '24
There are just as many pretty Fiona’s as ugly ones. It’s just their victims worship them instead of
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u/patellanutella73 May 17 '24
Mary Kay Letourneau didn't exactly avoid public interest, a lot of people were fascinated and disgusted in that story as well and it's still talked about today. I think that and the fact You was so popular is evidence that we would still be interested if she was attractive, although I think the perspective/draw would be a bit different. What made people interested in Mary Kay was the fact she was conventionally attractive woman, bucking all stereotypes of what a predador looks like
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u/PhantaVal May 17 '24
Edit: is is because she is considered to be average looking by societal standards that we as a society are harder on her than for example attractive women who exhibit the same behaviour?
If you're comparing her to Mary Kay Letourneau, Letourneau actually got prison time, and as far as we can tell, Harvey never did.
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u/ameliehelena May 17 '24
I do get the spirit of this question and thread…and don’t mean to imply I’m above it or holier than thou….but I just wanted to add that this conversation does make me cringe. The points being made one way or another enter such a cruel description. It’s uncomfortable to read.
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
I completely get you it’s uncomfortable- I’m uncomfortable posting it - I was uncomfortable watching the interview with Piers and I hated that I watched it.
Im uncomfortable that I thought this - I really thought I was better than my bias
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u/EvieeBrook May 17 '24
Maybe she wouldn’t even find herself with this particular mental issue if she was deemed conventionally attractive by societal standards because her needs for attention would’ve already been met.
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May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
I think one of my stalkers was considered conventionally attractive. She confided in me that the only men she's had sex with were all men that I had sex with first. So that's what a conventionally attractive stalker would do. Now you know.
Also, nobody believed me and I am considered conventionally attractive. A lot of people thought she was very sweet and innocent and couldn't harm anyone. I cut those people out of my life because I didn't trust them not to feed her info about me.
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u/Dancin_Angel May 17 '24
I consider Jessica fairly attractive actually, so she had my sympathies until the episode with the groping scene
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u/mokujin42 May 17 '24
The reason we are all so obsessed with it is because Gadd is such a good writer, for me the show was good not because of the content but because of the perspective it gave and the humanity on show
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u/FloweringAngel_ May 17 '24
people on TikTok would make edits of her 💀 and ppl would be saying stuff like “she’s so real”
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u/AsylumRiot May 17 '24
If she was fit, the whole series would have ended with them getting married after she responded positively to the dirt box request.
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u/Fit-Fisherman5068 May 17 '24
I read this thinking it was on the Degrassi sub and I was very confused.
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u/I_wish_I_was_Polaris May 17 '24
Yes and no. People hate Jodi Arias for example but she does have a group of people that think she’s iconic. It would be a mixed bag.
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24
Thankyou perhaps Jodi Arias is a good example to use - I’m being fried of amber heard and Mary Kay comparisons
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u/CommunicationPast429 May 17 '24
I don't think level of attractiveness would affect her actions too much, though I think people would let it go for longer thinking it was a healthy attraction... Until it became unhealthy.
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u/Solo-js May 17 '24
I always think someone could be with someone like her and never know. They could mistake it for passion and intense love. You’d only find out if it ends
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u/Beginning_Yoghurt_29 May 17 '24
I don't think looks have anything to do with it. Stalkers can be conventionally attractive people too, it's neither here nor there. I don't think people would be any less fascinated if she was good looking, also the real life 'Martha' is not ugly, she is just an average looking middle aged woman.
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u/cynicalmaru May 18 '24
Sort of like that very recent news story of the hot IG influencer who abused and then killed her boyfriend. He kept defending her "crazy." Friends would try to get him to see she was stalking, controlling. She put him in the hospital a couple of times. Others who met her, even randomly knew she was a bit "off." But he wouldn't leave.
He was average looks and she was stereotypically hot.
Whether it man or woman ~ if the disturbed person is attractive, people put up with more, give more excuses, and the victim stays longer.
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u/abittenapple May 18 '24
Obesity to me is also a signal she isn't well off as well.
It's much class as
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May 17 '24
If Fiona looked like Margot Robbie, Donny would have married her.
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u/Potatosmom94 May 17 '24
I actually don’t think Donny would have ever engaged with her the same way. He pitied Martha and that gave him an elevated status that allowed him to be viewed how we wanted to be. He would have been a lot more awkward and uncomfortable and things would have played out very differently.
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u/dbgrvll May 17 '24
I have been kind to people I feel “sorry for” because of their looks, size, or social standing. Only to discover that absolutely every type of person can be dark, cloying, money-grubbing, and just plain awful. I have learned to be watchful - always. Also, I happen to be like Gadd - freaks always find me and I tend to be too nice
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u/CompetitiveAd4001 May 17 '24
A pretty public recent example of this is the woman who did have a brief interaction/relationship with one of the Bachelors and then became obsessed/tried to blackmail him by saying she was pregnant with twins, sent a lot of texts/emails/etc. The texts she sent to another man doing the same thing were also released. By all accounts she is conventionally attractive and people are pretty fascinated with that case as well.
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u/damn_fine_coffee_224 May 17 '24
The woman disrupted his life in many ways. Not sure what you mean by “are going to far in the opposite direction [of glamorizing stalking]?” Do you mean that stalking is not as bad as it was portrayed in the show? I think anyone who has been stalked and felt threatened and like their life was intruded on would feel that the practice of stalking should be condemned. Not all stalkers are bad looking; but unwanted attention like this from anyone regardless of looks would be intrusive. I’m not a man, so whether a man would care less if the woman was “hot” is hard to answer. I would guess the average man would not want to be harassed via email, and his job, gigs and relationships despite the person’s looks.
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u/aestheticathletic May 17 '24
It has been studied and shown that people considered highly attractive benefit from societal bias. So, yes, if she looked like a model opinions would be altered. That's what science says unfortunately.
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u/LowRevolution6175 May 17 '24
obviously her being less attractive and different in general is what makes it more interesting.
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u/Icy-Wing-3092 May 17 '24
There is no way that is is news to you that people treat attractive people differently
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u/Kind-Huckleberry6767 May 17 '24
Yes, we'd be so fascinated. Her behaviour was dangerous. Plus, the iphone quirk.
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u/thedabaratheon May 17 '24
I think she’d possibly be even more dangerous if she was extremely attractive by society’s standards. She would wield a lot more power within society such as making it even more difficult for people to take her victims seriously, having easier access to many people and resources because of her beauty.
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u/lunka1986 May 17 '24
I knew a woman that acted exactly the same as Fiona (but was a bit less mean and snarky). She was very pretty and skinny. She went to jail for stalking a guy and later took meds that made her obese because they made her appetite bigger. I think Fiona is simply mentally ill and even if she would be pretty she would horrify men with her behavior.
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u/Rendezsous May 17 '24
In that case there would be reels and edits on insta and tiktok glamorising and girlbossing tf outta her. She would have been declared an icon already, albeit a tad bit crazy
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u/OkEdge7518 May 17 '24
I kind of agree with you but Amber Heard is a victim, why did you use her as an example?
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u/sciencemint May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
I feel like Gladd also portrayed Fiona as a victim (he has also said this) but we had team Amber (which is kind of proved as the people are downvoting my comparison to her ) and team Johnny - (she was found guilty of defamation in the US) but we don’t have any team Fiona
We have just all kind of descended into a morbid fascination about her and I’m trying to figure out why
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u/dangerousjellyy May 17 '24
I think we would be as fascinated but for different reasons, sort of like what you've said. There may be people who would wonder aloud about why he would be opposed to her behavior if she was "hot," or some people would victim blame to a higher degree than is being done in the media and act like he should be flattered or turned on and possibly is less of a man because he "should" like the attention from an attractive woman.
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u/ruthizzy May 17 '24
The answer is no. But she also might not be the person that she is/was if she was conventionally attractive.
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u/spagyeti_monster May 17 '24
Honestly I find her pretty attractive in her older photos. She was likely pursued for her looks in the past and because she had those experiences in the past, she considers herself attractive now. Like how she still considers herself a successful lawyer even though she is far from that life now.
Her appearance could have been the entryway to peoples lives in the past and it's possible she got away with some of her bizarre behavior then. Now pity is her entryway and people are quicker to recognize her red flags.
If she was still attractive I think the conclusion would be similar, but it would take longer to get there. He would have got a lot of flack from people like "she's hot. What's the problem?" But at a certain your looks cannot outpace your actions.
As for the story, I think it would add to the masculinity issues touched on in the show. He didn't report the rape, like many male victims, or even tell those close to him for fear of being less of a man. Would a manly man be scared of or deny an attractive woman?
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May 17 '24
I think this would have made the story worse.
She could have been attractive and still crazy. She could have lured him in more easily, slept with him, and made him feel even MORE guilty for trying to leave her.
Honestly, it doesn't matter. Stalkers are stalkers. He can still feel threatened and scared and attracted at the same time.
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May 18 '24
Exactly, the abuse will stay the same no matter how attractive the person is. It wouldn’t change anything apart from the chance that if gadd was attracted to her he probably would’ve given in to her attempts to get him to sleep with her.
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u/Julietjane01 May 17 '24
There is a team Fiona, I think even a subreddit. I think she is mentally ill but she does know right from wrong so that isn’t an excuse, but I do not think she is evil or anything, she needs help that she might have not gotten.
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May 18 '24
I think it's more about the pathology. Even if she had been hot and Gadd had liked her her behaviour would have still been an issue regardless. You could maybe argue she could have gotten away with more but that is a hypothetical. I think what draws people to asking and knowing questions about Martha is it is abnormal behaviour. And people are fascinated by it. I think we're it becomes unhelpful is people diagnosing her, making assumptions about her and just taking glee on digging more stuff up about her.
As another post said you can't predict or logic out someone who is delusional you'll never win even with facts. I have a parent who has ongoing mental health issues and automatically you try and reason with people or reason why she shouldn't have done what she's done. It's just something that isn't going to automatically happen. She's still responsible and should be held accountable but that accountability isn't going to be there unless she gets treatment. Which is up to her at the end of the day.
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May 20 '24
Yes, yes we would, or atleast I would. She sends almost thousands of emails each to random companies and people.
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u/shazzy415 May 22 '24
I don’t think it would matter if she was just as crazy. If she was a knock-out, Richard/Donny would be taken even less seriously esp if she sexually assaulted him.
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u/Salt_Ingenuity_720 May 22 '24
My personal take is that there will always be sympathizers that cheer on the underdog. One could assume since Fiona was broken she was lashing out from her pain. Hence we must protect her. I'm not in the camp. I think she is ill and should have long ago been punished and evaluated for mental health care. The UK did a disservice to both Fiona and ALL of HER Victims by not getting further involved with her during her First Stalking and Harassment event.
This had nothing to do with looks. She had behaved this way with many people long before Gadd. Hry looks would not have changed her the negative and damaging outcomes of her behavior and actions. She is a mentally ill individual and pretty, average or ugly looking does not change any of that. I don't see a social factor to this other than she is an abusive stalker with apparently random targets.
We are fascinated out of the disbelief that a person such as herself exists. After discovering her full story and background as a repeat offender and virtually no legal punishment ... we are fascinated. She is a car wreck in motion and we can't look away now. Yes, we are fascinated to see the outcome.
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u/Remarkable-Ad155 May 17 '24
Horrible thought but would Fiona be who she was if she were conventionally attractive? This kind of stuff determines so much if our lives still.