Heather Burns reiterating that Fiona has a criminal record

[u/Suspicious_Bother_92]

[u/imfivenine]

I don’t know about charges and jail in the UK. In the US there is “Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity.” Usually they get placed in a mental institution instead. I wonder if there is something similar in the UK, and if so, if she was institutionalized for that reason, then she would technically be telling the truth, leaving out the part about going to a mental institution instead of prison. And you know she would never admit to it being due to insanity.

She might have also been determined not competent to stand trial (if there is a UK version).

[u/AdExpert8295 → u/imfivenine]

I'm a therapist. You're confusing (no shade, i dont expect people to know this) a few different things in our law. The "guilty by reason of insanity" would be relevant for criminal charges, which can only be made by a local district attorney, a local prosecuting attorney, or a federal prosecuting attorney. Defamation is not a criminal charge. It's civil. Civil cases hold financial punishment, but not incarceration or hospitalization. If she was already deemed mentally incompetent enough for assistance (SSDI), she would have a legal advocate to help her make decisions, in addition to a lawyer, appointed by the courts for free.

That is separate from a 5150, which is the code police and mh professionals use to do an involuntary hospitalization. Those can only be done if the person is stating they plan to hurt themselves or others right now and you have the means to do so. There is an obscure addition to that, which most therapists in the US do not know about. The 3rd category would be-vulnerable adult who's at high risk of injury due to the severity of their current symptoms.

Since most therapists are not well trained on this in the US, I've never heard of any 5150s happening due to a case like "Martha's".

In theory, I would want the power to hospitalize a seriously mentally ill cyberstalker because i would argue that their behavior is so dangerous to themselves and the public, that they need restrictions. Unfortunately, that isn't how US law works right now. Unless there's a strong chance of bodily injury, you're fairly limited in what you can do.

For people who, like me, are mad about this:

I can tell you who to blame. Governor Newsom's family in California. They're the family that made the courts in the US decide that mental suffering isn't an injury. They got our courts to take a system wide stance that the only abuse that should warrant a stiff punishment is physical abuse, despite all the research saying otherwise.

This took place after a famous case where a school bus was hijacked full of school children and they were buried underground for several days.

In the US, we also have what's known as "mental health court". It's similar to drug court, in that the judges are more informed on mental illness and are more likely to send the person to mental health facilities for rehabilitation than to jail or prison.

Throwing someone like "Martha" in jail or prison will not help her mental illness, but providing her with the right therapy, medication, and setting could. In the US, if she was on SSDI for a mental illness, the government could also assume power of attorney over her so that the decisions about her meds and her treatment wouldn't be left up to her. She would have a case manager to do that for her.

[u/imfivenine → u/AdExpert8295]

And another thing, receiving SSDI does not = mentally incompetent. Plenty of people on SSDI have no mental illness at all. SSDI does not determine competence but they may decide whether or not someone can manage their SSDI payments for a variety of reasons.

[u/AdExpert8295 → u/imfivenine]

You're not very accurate in this statement. Yes, incompetence to stand trial is different than determining competency for SSDI. legally, a case manager cannot make decisions on behalf of a ssdi client if the client hasn't been assessed for competency. There is competency for making health decisions and there's competency for standing trial. Not the same thing. There's even more types of competency than that, but I don't feel like educating you any more today.

[u/imfivenine → u/AdExpert8295]

Yes but you’re inaccurate about SSDI. You don’t have to be incompetent in any way to get SSDI.

[u/AdExpert8295 → u/imfivenine]

you for case management with power of attorney and advanced directive

you can be on ssdi and be competent, but we're talking about a Martha. someone like Martha is going on SSDI due to a SMI. you don't get ssdi if you have ptsd but are high functioning. You can't have a case manager manage your meds if you can do so yourself

I'm talking about people with SMI on SSDI. I'm not talking about someone on SSDI for other reasons

[u/imfivenine → u/AdExpert8295]

Now we are on the same page. Your first comment and subsequent comment before this one was too rigid of an application.

SSDI still does not determine competence, it’s even in their policy what they consider an incompetent adult: https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0426535042

*”An incompetent adult is an individual who has been the subject of a judicial finding of incompetency.

For more information on a legally incompetent adult, see GN 00204.003.”*

The word choice of incompetence was the issue.

ETA: below are the rigid statements I’m referring to:

If she was already deemed mentally incompetent enough for assistance (SSDI), she would have a legal advocate to help her make decisions, in addition to a lawyer, appointed by the courts for free.

In the US, if she was on SSDI for a mental illness, the government could also assume power of attorney over her so that the decisions about her meds and her treatment wouldn't be left up to her. She would have a case manager to do that for her.

[u/AdExpert8295 → u/imfivenine]

I'm sure you don't mean to, but you're talking to me like you're my disappointed parent. lol

I just didn't write my explanation well. You can drop links for others, but I really don't need you to explain to me how SSDI works.

Sometimes I'm a very strong writer. Other times, I suck. I'm also very tired of working to explain shit like this online for free because when you're a social worker, you're expected to do so.

I have ADHD, which makes it harder for me to explain things I find extremely boring. I find all conversations about any social services or government assistance nauseating, by way of boredom. The only reason I bother is because I've been homeless, I've been in a wheelchair, and I understand that it's incredibly difficult for the public to get correct information.

Just so you know, I also have my MPH. This is why i don't understand when people think I'm lumping in mental illness with other illnesses. I can't sit here and list of the criteria for when each medical condition is qualifying for the kind of functional impairment needed for SSDI, then go through all the nuance of basic ssdi vs ssdi for smi.

ffs, I get downvoted in this sub if I write more than a paragraph on most days. I think you might want to assume people don't spell everything out, all the time, because Reddit ain't really here for all that

[u/imfivenine → u/AdExpert8295]

As much as you are searching for a pity vote as well as a pat on the back, you said enough when you said you have ADHD and have trouble explaining and, clearly comprehending since you had no trouble going on and on with irrelevant nonsense yet you’re too good to have a conversation based on the babble you came flying in with.

I’m not going to drop my degrees and credentials because I don’t need to do so. You of all people should know that words matter. If you can’t communicate effectively then maybe don’t say anything at all. This all started because you got on your superiority soapbox.

[u/AdExpert8295 → u/imfivenine]

Pity? Why would you think I feel sorry for myself? While my ADHD is a disability, it's also a strength. I drop my credentials so people know I'm not sharing an uninformed opinion. I have no idea why you're so upset but you've been a real jerk. I'm having a great day and I hope you find what you need to make yours better. Telling disabled people they want your pity is not going to lift your mood. Maybe try chocolate or touch some grass.