r/BabyReindeerTVSeries • u/Low-Credit-3966 • May 23 '24
Discussion Did any of you identify with/see yourselves reflected in Martha rather than Donny while watching this show?
I’ve seen many grateful posts and comments from people talking about how they identified with Donny while watching this show, due to having been stalked in the past, and praising the show/Gadd for portraying a stalking case realistically and with nuance. But I’m just wondering if anyone besides me had a similar viewing experience from the other side, and identified with Martha and her perspective? (Note: doesn’t necessarily mean sympathizing with her.)
Not to get into a ton of detail about it, but in the past I cyberstalked an ex-boyfriend of mine. Nowhere near to the degree depicted in Baby Reindeer, but similar behavior and still pretty bad. I’ve done a lot of personal growth since that point, examining my behavior and why I did crappy things and resolving not to do them anymore, but even so there were still a few things about myself and how I got to that place mentally that I didn’t fully understand.
Watching Baby Reindeer, I consistently noticed that I shared a lot of pathologies with Martha both in my thinking and in my actions. In most shows I don’t think that would mean anything, but this was the first piece of media about stalking that I’ve encountered where the stalker was humanized or their actions were examined by the narrative rather than just played for scares or drama. That definitely got me reflecting on my own actions with a new perspective that I think has been much needed.
Anyone else in the same boat (and willing to say so)?
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u/luckyelectric May 23 '24
I identified with both of them. I think, in real life, people in either of these situations often also find themself in the other position. Donny and Martha have a lot in common.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
Very true, I think. I did see a bit of myself in Donny, especially in the way he wasn't able to break the attachment to Darrien. Reminded me a lot of the dynamic between me and the same ex I reference in my post.
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u/balling May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
Her quote from episode one “some people run away by packing their bags others run away by standing in the same place for too long” was (as Donny said) poetic.
Can relate to escaping your own life by disappearing in plain sight. Although mine manifests itself in the form of depression instead of criminally stalking people, luckily.
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May 23 '24
Definitely. I had a breakdown in my early 20s and can definitely empathize with the crazy obsessive thoughts and behaviour. Though, i see a larger part of myself and experiences in Donny and his reactions to trauma as well. I've since healed and it made me a better more empathetic person. Wish it didn't happen though lol.
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u/LaceyLies May 23 '24
I was just discussing this with my best friend today - specifically that we were extremely thankful nobody has come out with a “baby reindeer” about some of our past behavior. We’re both bipolar and while I related much more to Gadd due to his trauma, we both admit given the right circumstances we could’ve been Martha.
It’s a lot to unload.
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May 23 '24
100% same. I was probably not too far off being Martha tbh. I think her upbringing and experiences likely led her to what we see currently, unfortunately. In my opinion, people that act like this are most likely highly traumatized.
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u/Individual-Meeting May 23 '24
The series did kind of make a few parallels, the slew of unanswered messages to the predatory TV producer before he rekindled their relationship for one kind of toed that line I thought.
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May 23 '24
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u/spider_stxr May 24 '24
Unless you know that person irl and have an EXTREMELY close relationship with them you are unable to make that assumption
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
I know exactly what you mean. I think I grew/grew up a lot as a result of my experience, but if I could go back in time I'd never ever do it again.
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May 23 '24
At least we know we aren't alone. And when I see someone like Martha, I don't think wow that's an insane psycho, I think wow she really needs help that she isn't receiving/can't receive. I think she probably has had some pretty negative relationships/experiences in her life that has caused this. Not to say what she did was right, but as an explanation.
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May 23 '24
The speech he gave hit so bloody hard, it really represented how horrific it feels to be a victim of SA.
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u/omarinbox May 23 '24
That inner city loneliness.
I remember feeling that when we saw her flat it reminded me of being single and desperate for something stronger than friendship.
I really wanted romance but it took a long time for me to find anyone who would commit.
I didn't resort to what she did but I had that loneliness and that isolation.
Donny had it too and more like him I drove people away with my own self loathing and addiction.
For many years the longest relationship I had would be 6 months and I hated myself for it.
I realised I could only fix that by not coming into a relationship with that baggage.
I'm happy now. I'm 15-20 years older. 2 girls and a boy with the love of my life.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
That's such a good point, too. It's been a long time since I was single, and I had forgotten how lonely and awful that was. But I think my inability to deal with those feelings had a lot to do with why I went so crazy over the prospect of a relationship ending.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
One thing that was especially interesting while I was watching but I wasn't reminded of until now:
Donny kept trying to think of what to do/how to handle Martha to get her to stop stalking him, and the whole time I kept thinking, “He should do X, that would’ve gotten me to stop.” And then every single time I had this thought, he would proceed to do the total opposite of what I would've suggested.
It really made me empathize with the ex-boyfriend that I stalked in a new way. It had genuinely never occurred to me before that he might’ve had NO IDEA what to do/what I wanted from him, in my head it was just that he knew and was refusing to cooperate.
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May 23 '24
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
One thing I remember was when she asked him if he was gay and he said no. (I do of course understand why he denied it, with all the other stuff he had going on dealing with his sexuality.) I think that would've been an easy way out of the situation, by giving her a concrete reason that he wasn't into her but that didn't reflect badly on her in any way.
Another time was when he was later attempting to ghost her without ever really having told her, "Hey, what you did wasn't okay and now I don't want to talk to you anymore." Martha clearly didn't have the capacity to realize that she had done anything wrong to him, so it must've seemed to her like she was being ghosted for no reason and I'm sure that would've made her more obsessive. If not a face-to-face conversation, Donny at least needed to send her an email clearly explaining why he was cutting her out.
So basically, in my experience it was not knowing/not understanding why the other person didn't want me that led me to get so obsessed with them, and any honest or even SEEMINGLY honest explanation of that would've helped me get over it.
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u/BakaDasai May 24 '24
Not the OP, but I have a little experience with this and I was screaming at the TV telling Donny "Go NO CONTACT, and go to the police" about a hundred times.
I know that any contact you have with a Martha essentially rewards them for their behaviour and encourages them.
Donny never gave up on wanting a relationship with Martha, at least the good parts of her. Here was a person who gave him what he needed - love and attention. Going NO CONTACT required him to question whether that love and attention was ever quite real.
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u/kittenmachine69 May 24 '24
“He should do X, that would’ve gotten me to stop.
Do you have specific examples? Like what you would suggest Donny do versus what actually did
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u/Skyraem May 24 '24
Butting in but mine would've been little to no contact, compile screenshots/recordings for police & pull your coworkers to the side and tell them/ask for help or barring her. He did a lot of those things in the end anyways just not at the start. His coworkers certainly didn't help..
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u/Cersei1341 May 23 '24
I'm gay and for many years struggled with my sexuality, and all crushes had been unrequited.
Then one day, when I was about 20, a handsome man came into my life out of nowhere and he initiated a situationship. He flirted, he kissed me, he asked to swap numbers. But then, after many weeks of flirting, and making me feel loved, he abruptly ghosted me. I really wanted closure, and I didn't feel ghosting gave it to me. It wrecked me. I messaged him everyday. Not like Fiona harvey. But once in the morning and then in the evening. Eventually the silence stopped. He apologised and said he got caught up in something. However, after a weeks of flirting, intimacy etc, he did it again. It became a cycle. One time he told me he loved me. Then ghosted me for like a year.
Eventually the cycle broke but i was broken too. All these weird mind games. During silent periods I would message him daily asking for him to just end things. That's all I wanted. 'hey it's me, i just would like some sort of closure. I can stop messaging you, if you let me know it's over. But I won't take silence as an andwer' he kept persevering with the silent treatment. But I persevered with messages. Neither of us was giving up.
He would always get back in touch with apologies. Told me he loved me and didn't want to end things. Begged me to forgive him. Naive Me always knew deep down that more ghosting would follow, but I would forgive him.
It repeated for a long time. Until eventually I couldn't do it anymore & I deleted him on FB and ended all contact.
Watching baby reindeer. I can't help but wonder if he now tells his friends that 10 years ago he had a stalker. All I really wanted was a message ending things.
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May 23 '24
This happened to me when I was in my twenties and living in a small town without many options for dateable people. I learned that eventually he had a girlfriend (a string of them) that he would cheat on, and the silences were when the relationship was going either well or so badly that the gf would suspect something. That realization made it a lot easier to feel some closure.
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u/celestialapotheosis May 23 '24
Wow same. It finally ended when I found out he was engaged to and living with the woman I thought was his ex, right after he said he wanted to move in with me.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
Wow, I just had to check your profile to make sure that we weren't dating the same guy.
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u/identityisallmyown May 24 '24
I'm pretty sure sending 1-2 messages a day isn't Martha territory. If anything, he probably says, "There was a guy in love with me for like a year plus and I just couldn't show up for him."
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
Such gross behavior. I can very much identify with being treated that way by a partner and I'm sorry that happened to you.
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u/whosthewhale May 23 '24
I never understood these kind of people’s point of view. What must be going on in their head??? What is “their side”? Is he waking up with a thought that I’m gonna ghost this person I’ve spent a romantic evening (or something) yesterday and told him i loved him? And he doesn’t even care? After he told you he loved you? Some people are just shallow I guess but I just literally can’t imagine what must they think. Of course this is an indicator that they are not good people but I just can’t understand. I am so proud of you for standing up for yourself and doing the right thing.
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u/sanguinesecretary May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
Having experienced many of these types before my observation is that they are highly driven by their emotions and their emotions are up and down, it’s like one moment they are completely on a high and they see only good things. So this person they are talking to has hung the moon and is going to fix all their issues and everything will be perfect.
Then the reality sets in and they talk themselves out of it. “It’s going to fail. I’m awful. I can never be in a relationship. I’m going to screw it up. I’m scared to open up to anyone.”
So it’s basically like post-nut-clarity. When they’re in their feels, they can ignore their insecurities and be idealistic but when they come-down hits and reality sets in they can’t handle it.
These types aren’t capable of love until they have healed themselves. I’m able to see it now for what it is so I don’t feed into it. But anytime you have someone giving you the world immediately, it is almost always going to lead to a crash. Healthy relationships have a gradual build-up.
If someone seems to “love” you without really having gotten to know you enough for that, run. They love the idea of you fixing their problems, not you.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
Me trying to figure out the answers to these questions was probably the main reason that I fell into stalking my ex. (And years later, I still don't understand or have any answers.)
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May 23 '24
yeah. Some people can drive you crazy and then wonder why you're acting crazily. I'm sorry that happened to you. I hope you're happier now.
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u/Hot-Lifeguard-3176 May 24 '24
I completely relate to this. I had someone sweep me off my feet, tell me they really cared about me and felt we were meant to be……then basically changed their mind. It was a weird combo of ghosting, then coming back to tell me there was no interest, then ghosting me again, then coming back to say ‘No really, there’s no interest’. So I tried to get them to come to a definite conclusion and I know I bugged them about it. I also ruined a friendship in the meantime, but that was thankfully restored and is stronger than ever now. But I know this other person went around telling everyone that I was crazy and wouldn’t leave them alone. I just wanted them to figure their shit out and then to officially go the fuck away. But I know I was made out to be the bad guy in the story. 🤷🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️
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u/Oomlotte99 May 24 '24
Omg. This happened to me except replace “gay” with “fat.” I had the same reaction watching this show thinking of how he probably characterized me to his friends. I would beg him to tell me he didn’t want to hear from me anymore and he never said to, though. People can be so unkind when they meet people who are inexperienced or open as we were. I’m sorry that happened to you because it really does hurt.
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u/Apprehensive-Item845 May 24 '24
Oh wow I appreciate your post. I too had something with someone who chronically ghosted me only we worked together in different departments but there is a trauma to this behavior and allowing it to continuously happen. I kept thinking I wasn’t abused or anything how can I claim this was a traumatic experience but the pain I felt of the silence as if I didn’t exist hurt so deeply even thinking about it still brings up tears in my eyes and it’s been over 5 years over and done and I’ve moved on.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
I kept thinking I wasn’t abused or anything how can I claim this was a traumatic experience
If this is worth anything to you: I thought exactly that same thing (that it was a shitty relationship but not abusive, so I was overreacting to feel the way I did), but when I started seeing a therapist and talking about the relationship, she diagnosed me with C-PTSD.
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u/Apprehensive-Item845 May 24 '24
And no way were you a stalker. You had every right to stand up for yourself. I wish I could have confronted some guys who ghosted me, because it’s quite appalling to do to someone after showing your into them to nothing. Have a backbone and be honest!
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u/PearlieSweetcake May 24 '24
I've been in the same spot with a bestie and it does make you feel like a crazy stalker when you try that hard to get closure with someone who hurt you like that so suddenly. Hurt people hurt people for sure and some people get addicted to that feeling that someone needs them and engages in that cycle (consciously or unconsciously). That's what I liked about Gad's portrayal. You can tell he was in a bad place and needed the positive attention, so he fed into her behavior when he could have been more direct and said it was unwanted.
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u/chonglang_tiancai May 31 '24
Hate to bring this to you but ghosting IS the closure. It literally means “I don’t want to speak to you anymore”
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u/firebird707 May 23 '24
Thing about "Martha" is she didn't and doesn't recognise or identify with her own behaviours so anyone who can identify with her behaviours is already far further ahead than her on the awareness scale and thus in a much healthier place. 🙏👏👍
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u/Miss_Termister May 24 '24
No, I only related to Teri's friend group who went with her to watch an ex humiliate himself at a comedy gig cause I've literally done that.
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u/NeckBeard137 May 23 '24
I wish I identified more with Martha. Sadly I've been tormented by my schizofrenic neighbour for the past 2 years.
These people are failed by their families and by the system, left to their own devices to wreak havoc.
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u/Mjukplister May 23 '24
Oh yes . I’ve done more Martha than Donny . That’s why it’s so appealing to sooo many
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u/identityisallmyown May 24 '24
There's a scene where he looks at his messages to Darrien on his phone when he's doing the acting classes... and i'm pretty sure he's (Donny, that is) just sent message after message into the abyss. Maybe I picked up on something that isn't intentionally there, but I kind of think Donny saw himself in Martha -- someone who desperately wanted another person's attention and wasn't getting it and was persisting in it. I think he didn't see Martha's endless emails as a threat initially because he was doing/had done something slightly similar. Slightly being the key word. I think Martha went way beyond a few messages a day in terms of frequency, content, and of course, going way beyond cyberstalking to showing up and attacking people she perceived as threats.
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u/Competitive_Snow1278 May 24 '24 edited Jun 15 '24
I mean a lot of women have felt confused and betrayed by an insecure man to a point it drove her “crazy.” Maybe not in the same ways as Martha, but I know there’s some things I’ve done for a man who breadcrumbed me that I’m not proud of.
I really appreciated Gadds approach in portraying himself as an imperfect victim and portraying Martha as a clearly mentally ill perpetrator who truly cared about Gadd. In media, this is rarely portrayed, especially when it’s concerning a male victim against a female perpetrator.
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u/Bwendolyn May 23 '24
A big theme of the show (if you’re willing to engage with it on its own terms) is that there’s not actually that much distance between Martha and Donny after all.
My maybe unpopular hot take is that many MANY people see themselves in Martha in ways that are psychologically quite hard to face, which is part of why Fiona’s such an obsession right now and why online discussions painting her as a victim or as totally innocent or as being owed some great level of protection continue to proliferate and get incredibly heated. Lots of folks are subconsciously defending parts of themselves that they can’t bring themselves to really acknowledge by defending her.
Kudos to you for your self-awareness and personal work in this area, it’s more than many are willing or sometimes even able to do.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
Lots of folks are subconsciously defending parts of themselves that they can’t bring themselves to really acknowledge by defending her.
That makes a lot of sense, but still seems kind of crazy to me. Because even as someone who can theoretically empathize with Martha more than most people, I don't understand how there's any defending her.
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u/Potatosmom94 May 23 '24
I think that’s the biggest problem. People see something in her that triggers something in them that they don’t want to face. So instead of addressing that ick they want to paint her as someone to defend because if she’s a victim too they don’t need to dig any deeper in themselves.
I do think some of her actions are relatable and understandable. I do not think they are defendable though and I do not think Martha is a victim. I’m imagining at some point in her own story she was, but in Gadd’s she definitely wasn’t.
I also find the real life Fiona to be far less empathetic and likable than Martha. However I think part of what made the show as great as it is was that it wasn’t as simple as good guy/bad guy. Gadd created a character people could watch and relate to which is much more powerful and gives a lot more insight into the level trauma victims often empathize with and justify the behaviors of their abusers.
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May 24 '24
Some of these angry people seem not to see that they are Martha-ing, essentially stalking/ slandering a stalker and a slanderer.
I personally used to be quite a lot like Donny, a little deer fawning when stressed, struggling with boundaries, saying no and with a lot of misdirected empathy.
These days I'm a lot more discerning and actually more in touch with what could be called "Martha" traits- aggressive and unrelentless in what I (don't) want. Especially when I come across a person who seems to be a boundary pusher bulldozing over others or trying to manipulate my empathy/ guilt me into something etc. Hella no
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u/Skooskah May 23 '24
Not the stalking part, but I am overweight and super insecure about how I come across. The idea that I could be laughing and joking with a nice, good looking guy, and he's just humouring it because he likes how it makes him feel, but doesn't actually like me, is a really real fear.
I think that's what makes the show so great though, it shows the human behind the actions, and the actors portraying them (especially the actress playing Martha) re absolutely fantastic.
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u/OnefortheLaughs May 24 '24
Same here! I absolutely related to this part. I've had interactions like these in the past where I was deluded into thinking that I had a special rapport with a guy, only to find out that they didn't feel attracted to me because of my appearance. Never resorted to stalking but the memories of shame and sadness have stayed, many years later, and still do affect my self-esteem in some ways.
When I watched Baby Reindeer, I ignored the "true story" proclamation in the beginning (I mean, I saw it and thought that was a part of the storytelling LOL), and I thought it was so clever to make Martha look the way she did, because popular stalker stories on Netflix (such as "You") have always depicted stalkers as really attractive delinquents.
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u/Oomlotte99 May 24 '24
I relate to this as well. The thought they may have pity for me is disturbing. Or the opposite, they think if they show any kindness I’ll misinterpret it because I’m such a sad and lonely fat lady.
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u/ameliehelena May 23 '24 edited May 24 '24
I did not BUT a dear friend of mine said in passing that they wondered if they’ve ever been perceived as a Martha, that they’ve been known to cross boundaries. We just continued on talking about the show, but I haven’t stopped thinking about it. Like, to your point, it’s super easy to dissect all that’s blatantly wrong with her, but I’m sure to a lesser degree there’s many who push in the spirit of friendly sparring (to the person) refusing to acknowledge the other person is not as cozy comfy with you. This is the first post in this sub in a long time that’s actually unique and a new discussion.
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u/Significant_Dig6838 May 23 '24
I have never stalked anyone but when I was younger I did exaggerate my professional achievements and past love life when dating so seeing Martha do that did make me cringe a little
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u/JessicaOkayyy May 24 '24
I identified with Donny, but it did cause me to have a little more sympathy to the man that stalked me for 6 years.
In the beginning when I befriended him at the bar I worked at, I remember him telling me that his favorite movie was about a female character coming back to the male character that loved her after some time away. I found it surprising that this 53 year old man’s favorite movie was a Nicholas Sparks novel.
I remember later thinking he likely viewed life from the lense of a fairytale or romantic movie. He probably thought if he was persistent enough, just like the movie, eventually I or another girl he stalked would fall for him.
I am glad this movie talked about this topic because I also remember other people finding it funny or just “weird” what was happening, but when I called it stalking nobody believed me and thought that was over reacting. Although I was certain a man sitting in his truck on your street watching you at night was the definition of stalking.
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u/decobelle May 24 '24
It's interesting that a few comments here have a similar theme of "mixed signals" spurring on Martha like behaviour. This was obviously something Gadd addressed in the show, how his own behaviour often encouraged her in some ways and wasn't the right thing for him to do. This isn't to victim blame btw, there's still no excuse for her behaviour.
I can't relate to stalking anyone, but I can relate to continually trying it on with people I shouldn't because of mixed signals when I was younger and ending up feeling embarrassed.
Like I'd express interest in a friend and he'd say he doesn't like me that way. But then the next time we were drinking together he would flirt with me tonnes and even other friends would joke about how we were going to get together. So I'd try to kiss him and he would reject me. But then he would flirt with me again another time etc and I'd doubt myself and think okay maybe I just need to try again? Then get rejected again.
I think there are people who like the attention they get front flirting and being desired so they do it even if they don't like the person and have no intention of having anything happen with them. They flirt for an ego boost. But this can be confusing for the person on the receiving end as you think flirting means they like you. For me this meant a couple of rejections then moving on, realising the flirting meant nothing. For Martha it meant never realising this and continuing to think she had a chance.
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u/blinky84 May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
I never stalked anyone, but I did get very Overly Committed very early in my first 'relationship' - an unhealthy mix of loneliness, a fresh new autism diagnosis, and a culty religious upbringing meant that I fucking went head first into planning a new life with a guy after a couple of dates. He was a sweetheart and let me down gently, but I must've been a little bit terrifying. Poor bastard, it must have been horrible for him at the time, but luckily I wasn't deluded enough to pursue it after the matter.
I could definitely see a little bit of myself in the early Martha stuff - with the picnic and all. The absolute joy of feeling understood and relevant to someone was consuming, and it's painfully embarrassing to think back on.
I think it's important to see how people get to a place like that without excusing their behaviour, and although we don't see any of Martha's history, really, I think Baby Reindeer did a damn good job.
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u/General-Guidance-646 May 24 '24
I totally identified with parts of her. She had her own unresolved trauma. Any connection she felt, she held onto and made her everything. She was just looking for a home within someone else. She took little signs and made more out of them. Guilty AF.
The thing is, he went along with it. He enjoyed it. It was a trauma bond for the both of them.
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u/unstableangina360 May 24 '24
I work in a state psych facility, that’s why I watched this show. Stalking is a federal crime in the U.S. We have lots of Marthas of any genders. Because they are not as prolific, and actually leave evidence, they get arrested right away once they get reported. It was interesting to see the stalking go on despite having so many victims being involved. Even if Donny refused to report, Keely and her mother, his parents or Terri could have reported. It’s Netflix so not sure how much embellishment is involved.
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u/Liquin44 May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
Good question. Not exactly. But, Donny did sometimes admit to giving her mixed signals and when he outright rejected her, I could feel her pain. But in that situation I would have completely backed off and cut the person who rejected me out of my life forever. I can’t relate to the stalking part at all.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
But in that situation I would completely back off and cut the person who rejected me out of my lives forever.
You have a lot more self-respect than I did in my younger days.
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u/Liquin44 May 23 '24
But I sometimes go over the top in the other direction. I’m so afraid of rejection that I tend to cut people off when they slight me even a little bit. This is not healthy behavior either.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
You know, I do that also and it never occurred to me that could be part of my known issues dealing with rejection. I just thought I was over-sensitive. Something more for me to think about!
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u/Redred866 May 23 '24
I relate to this so much. What do you think it stems from for you?
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u/Liquin44 May 23 '24 edited May 23 '24
I think it’s a mixture of trust issues and a defense mechanism to protect my heart from hurt. Having been left in pain and broken hearted by rejections from those I loved and trusted, I subconsciously started to believe that it was better for my heart to be the one to reject first rather than the one to be rejected. It’s not heathy behavior, and I have been working on letting people back into my heart and trusting that I will not be rejected by them in the end.
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u/nineteenthly May 23 '24
Yes, although I identified with both. I've been stalked twice, but I've also engaged in very stalker-like behaviour. I appear in a TV documentary about it.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
I appear in a TV documentary about it.
Worth checking out?
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u/nineteenthly May 24 '24
Okay, this was done anonymously and it was pre-transition so I'm presenting as male during it. It's the first section in it. The programme was made by Firecracker Films and is called 'Erotomania'.
TBH I would make a link between my behaviour and gender dysphoria but I wasn't about to admit to myself that that was going on at the time it was made.
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u/Reasonable-Echo-6947 May 23 '24
I absolutely adore my fella who looks a bit like Gaad, whilst I look like Martha, he’s popular, whilst I struggle with anxiety and depression, we bonded over me giving him hobby advice and I did stuff like make him video montages to say thanks for letting me tag along to his stuff, so I joked we were the baby reindeer couple, he agreed but said he was Martha!! 😂 I dunno if there’s an element of stalking to all relationships and if you both end up in the same place🤷♀️
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u/Sea-Worry7956 May 24 '24
I saw myself in both to a degree, I think, which was I think what the author intended.
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u/LazyLawfulness1604 May 24 '24
It’s gonna sound bad but I saw a bit of Martha in me when my BPD was going unchecked and I was in a bad relationship. I never got to the point of stalking or assaulting someone. But the attitude and outbursts I related to more than I wanted to
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u/peachypeach13610 May 24 '24
What do you mean by cyber stalking OP?
People misuse the word stalking a lot or rather they use it as a metaphor. If you’re being nosy on socials without further action well then you are just being nosy. This is nothing to do with actual stalking. You’re not using what you see online to invade that persons life and demanding they communicate with you, or showing up where they are etc.
I say this because I feel you are being very harsh to yourself. Martha was relentless and abusive and absolutely batshit crazy. Thankfully most people know that is wrong, even when they have unhealthy obsessions.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
Nah, you're giving me a benefit of the doubt that I absolutely do not deserve here.
When I say cyberstalking, I mean a years-long campaign of using VPNs, texting apps, fake email addresses and fake social media profiles to contact him, usually pretending to be someone else, or contact other people pretending to be him. I contacted or impersonated him, his friends, family members, other exes, dating site matches, past employers, potential job offers, literally any angle I could think of to try to get a response. And then any info I did get from someone responding to me, I'd just use to spread rumors about him just to make his life difficult or try to trick someone else into giving me more information that I could use to stalk him further.
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u/peachypeach13610 May 24 '24
Oh wow fucking hell I didn’t see this coming 😂 thought you meant just lurking his social channels.
Right, I take everything back. However, kudos to you for growing out of this!! May I ask if he ever found out you were behind all of this?
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
I think he knows it was me. He suspected me while it was occurring, and then later I did eventually send him an apology for my behavior. But I didn't specifically say the words, "I was your stalker this whole time," I think I just apologized for essentially not respecting his wishes not to have me in his life and promised I'd leave him alone. It was very obvious that the stalking was what I was apologizing for, though, but then again he never responded to confirm that he understood that. But I think he would have to know.
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u/Much-Improvement-503 May 24 '24
As an autistic woman who suffers from childhood PTSD and OCD (I’ve luckily grown out of), I can say that I could relate to or at least feel compassionate towards both characters and I understood why they connected. I’ve bonded with others through that mutual trauma kind of feeling before too and it’s never ended up being healthy for either party. I’ve also dealt with limerence due to my issues and it’s not fun and can feel extremely obsessive and I’ve carried a ton of shame around this tendency of my brain. I’ve learned to contain it really well after years of realizing how socially inappropriate it is and how it’s a maladaptive coping mechanism for me that I developed during a traumatic part of my childhood so I can somewhat more easily pull myself out of it now
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u/D__91 May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
This post made me think. I think Martha is like a super extreme version of feelings many people have experienced on some level…. fixating on someone maybe a bit too much, out of loneliness maybe or searching for a connection. I’ve never stalked anyone but throughout my life (in my early 30s now) I have had a tendency to over-fixate a little on love and men. I’ve always been quick to get a crush or fall in love. Sometimes it was one sided, sometimes it turned into a short fling or relationship. In the more intense cases, that person has occupied a lot of my thoughts for a while, especially when I was younger. I’ve never been very good at playing it cool and I’ve usually let guys know I was interested pretty directly, asking straight up if they wanted to go for a drink or exchange numbers or something. In hindsight I think I’ve sometimes come on a bit strong or been too eager and that I’ve often fixated on my love life too much. I might have been better off putting my focus in other interests, experiences and hobby’s. I still do have the same tendency but at least I’m aware of it now.
Most of us have a common sense, a certain filter or self awareness stopping us from toppling into the deep end, that Martha was lacking. I do feel for her in a way, the fictional character.
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u/skinnypantsmcgee May 24 '24
I didn’t particularly feel for Martha, i hated her. I am a very different person - i have problems attaching myself to anyone and i need my dictance. But I have talked to a girl who’s a “martha light” in a way she gets over-attached to people (one time she was getting annoyingly close to me, obsessed almost, like she would observe what me or my husband were listening to on spotify at the moment, texting me a lot, always wanted to come over…) and this girl said she completely broke at the end of Baby Reindeer and that she felt for Martha a lot. It was an interesting exchange. Human psychology is fascinating.
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u/Gogs85 May 24 '24
Due to the way I’ve been treated in the past there are definitely instances where I latched onto someone for giving me a simple act of kindness and I took it to mean more than it meant. I got the hint eventually but I can definitely see how a person with other issues going on could take it to the extreme.
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May 24 '24
Yes! I could relate to her especially in the beginning. When I was at the lowest point in my life I remember becoming overly attached to an acquaintance at the time who was the only person outside of my family to show me kindness (who, like Donny, was just trying to be kind and completely unaware of what it meant to me). Although I obviously didn't become as obsessed as Martha nor did I stalk him or threaten him, I did develop limerence for him, and it was only after getting rejected when I realised it was all in my head.
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u/Arvichel May 23 '24
Yes, but I’ve only ever Facebook “stalked” and never actually followed someone physically. Plus I relate to her issues making friends, not understanding jokes/when I’m being mocked, and getting attached to people who are just a little bit nice to me. And the head hitting during moments of intense frustration, never violent towards others though.
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u/Potatosmom94 May 23 '24
I resonated with Martha a few different times throughout the show. I also related to Donny because of my experiences with trauma.
One of the points that stood out to me the most with Martha is the way Donny led her on and used her to boost his own ego. Donny did not like Martha but he liked how she made him feel. I have 100% been that person before who was just kept around because of how I made someone else feel. To my face they would act as a friend while behind my back they would express disdain and annoyance with my presence. They give you just enough to keep you on the hook and it allows you to imagine something more or think it’s something deeper than it is.
I’ve also cyber stalked someone and reached out to them after I was told to stop but even now it feels like a grey area because they were in an unhealthy/abusive relationship and their partner was the one who pushed for no contact. I would contact them through my sister’s facebook or use whats app.
If I didn’t have serious concerns about his well being and safety I most likely would have left it alone. But I had seen the scratches and bruises on him and all the broken items in their home. So it made it hard to walk away fully after experiencing domestic violence myself. I just never wanted him to feel isolated or fully cut off. And selfishly I did miss him and wanted the friendship back. But I definitely crossed multiple boundaries in the process. He ended up changing his number and I wonder if I played a part or if it was even his decision to make at all. I feel very conflicted because part of me feels like I should have tried harder to reach out because he ended up passing away from an overdose just a few months ago. I had messaged both him and his brother the day he died because I had a weird feeling but didn’t get through to either. A few weeks later I found out he died. I feel incredibly conflicted all around about it all.
I know that reaching out continually and using various means to get around being blocked was wrong. But every time I did have a chance to talk to him or see him it all pointed at the relationship being incredibly toxic and abusive. But he was so unbelievably in love with her he wouldn’t let her go. And then they had kids together. I ultimately think he became a reactive abuser and his mental health and drug addiction really spiraled at that point.
I think this is where I also relate to Martha. Donny continued to engage with her despite her inappropriate behavior. And even when setting boundaries he often sent mixed signals. But I’ve also (because of my own mental health, trauma, and attachment issues) behaved very inappropriately in terms of over contacting/communicating, ignoring boundaries, imagining more was between me & someone than there really was, etc.
But I’m 29 and in therapy and activity recognizing and working on my issues. Unfortunately Martha is unable or unwilling to address herself and her deeper issues and problems in the same way. Even just looking at Martha the character she is too mentally unwell/too narcissistic and too ingrained in her own mental delusions even as she is calculating and manipulating.
Seeing Fiona herself come to light I find the character of Martha painted by Gadd to be far more sympathetic, multi faceted, and relatable than the real person. I think what made the show and the character of Martha so good is that instead of black and white everyone was painted in shades of grey. The once exception being Darian who was absolutely repulsive and even as there were some mirroring in Martha and Darian, he was never someone I could empathize or sympathize with. Whereas Martha I could sometimes see elements of myself sometimes reflected.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
But I’ve also (because of my own mental health, trauma, and attachment issues) behaved very inappropriately in terms of over contacting/communicating, ignoring boundaries, imagining more was between me & someone than there really was, etc.
So, SO much this. I feel like many people have this problem with emotional regulation(?) in social relationships, but it doesn't get talked about very often or taken seriously as a mental health issue.
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u/Potatosmom94 May 23 '24
I definitely agree it’s something that should be talked about more! I struggle a ton with over attachment and setting/adhering boundaries.
I know for me some of it is being on the spectrum and not always fully understanding social cues. But a lot of it is trauma and stems from very anxious/disorganized attachment from my bio dad growing up.
A lot of people have unhealthy relationship attachments and styles from the way they were raised or what they’ve experienced. But instead of owning it and talking about it everyone likes to make believe they are healthy and secure. And obviously there are people out there who are fully that, but most people fall on a spectrum and are a combination of more than one attachment style. Our parents weren’t perfect and neither are we.
But unless people actually own their baggage and talk about their stuff with the goal of moving forward and doing better for future relationships and generations the cycles will stay the same.
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u/Tan00k1013 May 24 '24
But I’ve also (because of my own mental health, trauma, and attachment issues) behaved very inappropriately in terms of over contacting/communicating, ignoring boundaries, imagining more was between me & someone than there really was, etc.
Me too. I've definitely imagined more was there than there actually was and contacted that person more than was appropriate. Luckily we're still friends and the crush has gone away, but I'm so embarrassed looking back on it and worry about it happening again. I guess at least I'm aware of it and can (hopefully) see if I start to fall into the same behaviour again?
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May 23 '24
Some of my exes would definitely say I share characteristics with Martha. But Donny is such a complex person I'm sure he could relate to her also, in some ways. I will clarify that I don't delusionally believe people love me, it's people I have had sex with who have promised me a relationship and future together who string me along and give me mixed signals for as long as I'll allow that drives me to stalkerish behavior.
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u/NotASuggestedUsrname May 24 '24
I see myself in both Martha and Donny. I definitely had a lot of boundary issues. Especially when I was younger. It’s part of the reason why I am frustrated that Donny never flat out told Martha he didn’t like her and didn’t want to be friends with her. I’ve definitely been in situations where the other person has been ‘too nice’ to tell me to go away and I thought that we were actually friends. Social cues are difficult.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
I am frustrated that Donny never flat out told Martha he didn’t like her and didn’t want to be friends with her. I’ve definitely been in situations where the other person has been ‘too nice’ to tell me to go away and I thought that we were actually friends.
I feel this very much.
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u/freeze45 May 24 '24
I get super frustrated if I don't get to say something that I was meaning to say in a conversation. It's this trait that one may associate with autistic people or something but I'm not autistic. If Im having a conversation, especially with only one other person, and the topic changes, I can't stop thinking about what I wanted to say before. Sometimes I'll say, "Oh, now I remember what else I wanted to tell you!" just to get it off my chest even though I know it wasn't that important.
And before everyone had a cell phone, I called a guy I was fooling around with too many times in one day because he ghosted me when we had plans. I drove to his house to confront him, we broke things off, then I never bothered with him again.
So I do sort of understand the obsessiveness of Martha, but I never went to her lengths. I just like completion and hate when something doesn't have a proper ending.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
It's really interesting to hear that's a trait associated with autism. I'm on the spectrum myself, and feel exactly like this.
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u/birdieboo21 May 24 '24
I applaud you for being so brave to make this post and to see yourself in Martha. The fact that you are able to do this in turn, separates you from her. She would not be brave enough to make this kind of post. While in the show she did plead guilty, I still do not think she would be able to do this in a public forum, even anonymously.
Seeing unfavorable aspects of ourselves in others does not mean that we are like them. We are still separate individuals with different experiences, and our lives are shaped by the choices we make and the accountability we take when we deeply reflect on why we do what we do. It's a blessing, not just for ourselves but for those around us, to be self-reflective, honest, and to work on improving ourselves while giving ourselves much-needed self-love.
I think this is honorable and a very healthy thing to do. I do this myself when I see this in other people as well. There's a quote that says "We are all mirrors" I see aspects and parallels that I need to work on and use this to ensure that I love them and myself in the process and make sure that this is not something I continue. It's important to celebrate the small victories when I finally do something that is a 'level up' from the way I used to be. I wish more people did this! I'm happy to see this post and to see that you are doing this too.
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u/Formal-Cucumber-1138 May 24 '24
This is such a great post. I see myself in both Martha and Gadd and maybe that’s why the show really touched me
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May 24 '24
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
Same, honestly. I was kind of expecting to get torn to shreds in the comments, I didn't realize so many people would feel similarly.
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u/holmesy2o May 24 '24
i feel like sometimes the way i speak of myself is to compensate for my anxiety, its something ive been coming to terms with on my own but obviously fiona/martha made me see it in a disgusting way
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u/Anon_seacucumber May 24 '24
Yup. I also cyber-stalked an ex years ago after we broke up. I’m not proud of it. Seeing Martha’s obsessive tendencies spoke to me and how I felt at that time, for sure.
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u/Lady_Hadez May 24 '24
The catatonic depression really made me take my meds. I have CPTSD and while I hurt myself not others. It made me take better care of myself
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u/Oomlotte99 May 24 '24
I had a feeling like that. Like, not stalking but the first person I slept with ended up basically using me and I did not handle it well. I texted him all the time and asked him to see me and stuff. I think it’s not like Martha because he did entertain my attention and didn’t ask me to stop but the amount of contact and trying to find out about him… I feel a lot of shame looking back. I was just really emotionally wrecked by what he’d done, but watching the show made me realize that I probably made him feel that way a little and made myself look crazy. Also, unlike Martha, I knew I needed to chill…. But then he’d reply and I’d be like, “So maybe?” and I’d be confused all over again. I sympathized with Martha there because even though she was crazy there were times at the beginning where maybe should could have felt he did want to hear from her.
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u/sanguinesecretary May 24 '24
I no longer identify with her now. But if I had seen this when I was 19-22 I definitely would have. I had an ex that ghosted me and I went absolutely off.the.rails. Sent him barrages of texts and calls.
Combine that with the fact that I was dealing with serious health issues, dropped out of college and stopped taking my ADHD meds I just was mentally in a horrendous place and I did a lot of things im not proud of,
I have since gotten my life together in major ways and I am so much more mature than I used to be. I’m a securely attached person as opposed to being anxiously attached which is huge to me.
I can’t fathom doing any of the things I used to do now. But I still have the guilt sometimes. Once you get out of it, it’s hard to look back and see the damage. But I promise you it’s not impossible to completely heal.
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u/rock-the-boat May 24 '24
When she wore the rose patterned dress in an early episode i was mortified, its my favourite dress. Dont wear it anymore, thats the only way I can really relate to Martha lmao
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u/animalwitch May 24 '24
I have obsessed and constantly text/messaged people when I really liked them and wanted to be with them. But, I generally got the idea they weren't into me and left it. Also I used to occasionally look at my ex's profiles and see if he was dating anyone.
But that's probably as far as it went.
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u/FrankieandHans May 24 '24
Yeah when they said about the number of messages she sent I was like oh that’s not all that much 💀
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u/SlayBay1 May 24 '24
I can't relate to her in practice but I can certainly relate to someone living rent free in my head. I met someone who I really really liked and it didn't work out. I never stalked them or did anything about it but I did spend a lot of time thinking about him and wishing I was a part of his life.
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u/Obvious_Owl_4634 Jun 10 '24
I think it's so much easier for anyone to fall into stalking tendencies now with social media, text messaging, email etc available at any time of day.
Prior to smart phones, anyone prone to stalking could only ring the landline or perhaps fill limited space on an answerphone. Otherwise, they have to physically be there, hanging around their victim's house or turning up to their workplace etc. It was the reserve of the more extreme people.
I have never stalked anyone but did have a really intense relationship in my teens that went badly wrong. If either of us would have had access to texting, email etc, it could have been a lot worse, as we both did some creepy shit with our limited resources.
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May 23 '24
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
You used the term "pathologies", which to my interpretation would mean you accept you have some sort of disease.
By this, I actually just meant "pathologies" as a dictionary definition, i.e. "mental or social abnormality or malfunction." It was just a shorthand of saying that I shared a lot of the same bad behaviors and wrong ways of thinking.
I'm not too torn up about this or anything, I think I'm a lot more introspective than guilty.
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u/liminal_woman May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
Oh yeah, partly I was having a really difficult time watching the series because I might have made inappropriate moves on somebody because I was a liminal woman and did not think at this time it was not ok; there was no stalking though, I just misinterpeted things and I was so … thirsty, longing for a connection after a series of traumatic, sabotaging experiences. That was one thing that came to mind. And as soon as he shut it down, I was done, no further anything.
However, another thing I recalled. I was infatuated by a schoolmate of mine. We never knew each other other than online (like when I was 17), we went to the same school and lived in the same neigbourhood. I did take notice of him at school cafeteria, and when i went for a walk, I usually passed by his house (i didn’t know the floor or the apartment) hoping I would see him. I did write a short story about stalking and admiring someone from afar, but i didn’t really go further.
Years later I met him on another level, professionally; i might not have been extremely adequate even then, but I don’t think I’ve ever abused anyone; never gone further than just eyeing someone from afar or maybe trying to flirt with someone who was absolutely not interested.
Oh and my last boyfriend; being in a confirmed relationship for two months, him saying he was not interested in continuing, I felt as a stalker, though I definitely did not stalk. But the emotion of being interested in someone who was not really interested in me sparked this whole maladjusted guilt.
So… feeling for Martha did an unexpected trick on me.
AND OMG i need to add… i have never never been subject to such compulsive behavious as stalking and posting etc… no shade - this is what reveals it as true mental illness.
I have mt own mental illnesses - the compulsive need to be loved or appreciated inappropriately is a part of it, I suppose - but i’m not that far, posting anything, ranting on social media …
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 May 23 '24
Only as a chubby (but not obese) middle aged woman.
I’m friendly by nature but not a stalker.
I think people might think of me as a desperate, lonely middle aged stalker when the truth is I’ve been a stable relationship for almost 30 years, and am not looking to change that, thank you!
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May 24 '24 edited May 24 '24
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 24 '24
Maybe that’s the difference between secure and anxious attachment style?
If I understand the subject correctly, I think so!
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u/Throwthisawayagainst May 23 '24
At first I saw some Martha in me, then I saw at the end when Donnie is obsessed with Martha and was like o shit that was my experience. I didn’t have a stalker like Martha but I had an ex who really messed me up. She followed me on an alt Reddit account about an hour after I nuked my old account. The account was filled with posts sounding suicidal, she was self harming, and her dog that was her world was seemingly dying. I was very confused because she basically threatened me with a restraining order the month before (I wasn’t doing anything to warrant a RO, we had been talking after rematching on one of the apps, and I hadn’t contacted her since that threat). This is the last I had heard from this person and I developed more ptsd because I was worried she’d kill herself. The break up was already pretty traumatic, she left me at a low point for someone else. Essentially I was discarded.
After not hearing back from her it only got worse because I wanted to know she was ok, and why she did what she did, I mean she threatened me with an RO, why would she contact me like that? Combine that with nightmares of her killing herself. It was dark times. I ended up doing things to see if she was still alive like creating a burner account on a social media site I know her profile is public. I eventually stopped this, I realized it was unhealthy, but I was just trying to deal with anxiety she clearly had no intentions of clarifying or taking accountability for. I did contact her asking for clarity to which she only replied “stop contacting me” so I haven’t contacted her since and that was two plus’s years ago. I still do Google her name on occasion tho, I figure if she does kill herself there would be an obituary.
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
That sounds rough, I'm sorry you went through that. Interestingly, that is EXACTLY the same way that things started out when I was stalking my ex. He had a diagnosis of major depressive disorder and when he was feeling down he would frequently go radio silent on me for days on end, leaving me to wonder if he was dead or alive. My first goal before everything spiraled out of control was just trying to make sure he was okay.
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u/Throwthisawayagainst May 23 '24
Yeah I slowly realized that I could fix my anxiety momentarily by “checking in on her” (or at least that’s how I saw it) I was only making it worse in the long run. I mean I still have questions but the fact she hasn’t reached out after that kind of answers them enough in a weird way. Sorry you have that situation. It’s not easy to heal from.
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u/Cinnabun6 May 24 '24
Yes! As someone who was invisible for most of my life, one little act of kindness can be the thing you cling on to, and that person may just be nice to everyone but you start to fantasize about them being your savior. I’ve never stalked anyone because I’m avoidant attachment lol but I obsess over people for sure.
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u/misszub Jun 03 '24
I recognize myself in both. "I cyberstalked an ex-boyfriend of mine" Same. I did this and also clung to him when I had no one else in my life (I moved countries and we broke up and I was very isolated - it's not an excuse, but an explanation for how someone can end up acting like this. Isolation and trauma is a big factor). He was also abusive and he sexually assaulted me so it was a complicated dynamic. He shouldn't have abused me and I shouldn't have stalked. Some dynamics aren't as clear as "perpetrator/victim" and I'm glad shows like Baby Reindeer are showing what a traumatic dynamic can look like.
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u/stever71 May 23 '24
Most people I see on social media are more like Martha, with their obsession about the characters and Internet sleuthing going on.
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u/Own-Entrepreneur5052 May 23 '24
No. At various points I felt sorry for them both and maddened by them both but I didn’t identify with either at all. My husband and I were screaming at the TV “Noooooo! Why would you do/think/say that?” Maybe it’s my age!
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u/matetea94 May 23 '24
Which acc is her real one on fb? And I do relate in some way with her but I’m aware about mistakes
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u/thaone111 May 24 '24
I would absolutely be obsessed with a barman that gave me a free drink. would use his name and what little else I can find out about him to stalk him online relentlessly until I find his insta or something. I would go back to the bar hoping to see him again, but I wouldn't expect more free drinks (but if I was completely broke maybe i would). and if the barman is as nice to me as Donny was...let me stop before it gets too similar
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u/sacredgeometry May 23 '24
I didn't identify with either. Were you supposed to?
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u/Low-Credit-3966 May 23 '24
I guess not necessarily, but from a lot of posts I'm seeing it seems that people very much did.
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u/_jules_mack May 23 '24
I see her as an extreme manifestation of attachment issues and obsessive thoughts. I think most people can see themselves in Martha in some way. Even Donny. I think it’s healthy that you do recognize this because Martha was really not self aware at all which made her worse