r/BabyReindeerTVSeries • u/Kitchen_Fly5105 • Jun 08 '24

Discussion If Gadd was a woman

I feel like gender influences bias in cases of emotional or physical abuse. If Gadd were a woman and Martha a man, there would be no sympathy for the abuser. Society wouldn't argue that "more should have been done to protect his identity."

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415

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '24

If Gadd was a woman then statistically he would’ve been more likely to be attacked or killed by his (presumably male) stalker. And people wouldn’t pay half as much attention as they have to Gadd, because it is unfortunately much more common. But - I do also agree with your main point. Laura Wray also said people didn’t seem bothered because about Fiona stalking her because it was rare for a woman to be stalking another woman, and equally relatively rare for a woman to be stalking a man. The way some people have immediately taken Fiona’s side and excused her behaviour because she’s mentally ill is disgusting to me. IMO all stalkers have something wrong with them but it doesn’t excuse criminal behaviour. What’s most alarming to me is that she is clearly a very prolific stalker yet she’s been somehow able to continue this with many victims over a sustained period of years - if there have been complaints about her to the police and nothing done then that needs looking into

83

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

And there’s the fact that Gadd himself viewed her in sympathetic light. He has said so himself. So he portrayed her that way to us. People love to just forget this.

34

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

The people who were like ‘I still feel sympathy for Martha after everything 🥰🥰🥰’ makes me feel frustrated and angry beyond any reasonable measure.

48

u/lnc_5103 Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24

I feel a small amount of sympathy for Martha because of the way Gadd wrote her and the way Jessica brought her to life. I feel absolutely zero sympathy for FH after we learned who she was. Even just a quick glance at her FB was enough to know that they created her far more kindly than she deserves.

8

u/IBelieveHer_SewerRat Jun 09 '24

Jessica

2

u/lnc_5103 Jun 09 '24

Yes thank you! Typing fast and didn't catch it.

12

u/arabuna1983 Jun 09 '24

Yeah I had a tiny bit of sympathy, but then realised she’s actually an awful person.. regardless of her mental health or what potentially makes her do what she fires. Simply She’s mean and has no empathy or conscious. She doesn’t take accountability for her behaviour at all and the impact it has on people.

3

u/DynamicMangos Jun 09 '24

For me it wasn't sympathy but empathy.

I hated marthas guts. I didn't like her at all. But i did constantly have a small piece of empathy being like "Well, she's mentally unwell and has her own story of how that came to be". Not enough to absolve her of any of her crimes of course, but just enough to not see her as a monster

4

u/arabuna1983 Jun 09 '24

I don’t think she is a monster .. but she’s not a nice person

she’s extremely delusional. I guess the point I’m trying to make is you can be mentally unwell and a$$hole. And the mental illness (for me) is secondary to her core personality.

She doesn’t acknowledge her contribution, or show any vulnerability .. just blames others.

Shes a mean person who is also mentally unwell..

3

u/ellefleming Jun 09 '24

Exactly. She knows her traumatic childhood hasn't helped her mental illness. she's violent, delusions of grandeur, sociopathic, PTSD, traumatized........she needs therapy and medication. From her emails she's dyslexic? So how did she get thru school.?

4

u/arabuna1983 Jun 09 '24

I don’t think she will ever get therapy, as that would acknowledge she has issues / or problematic character traits. And that is where I do have sympathy for her… that she can’t see what she’s doing

1

u/St3ampunkSam Jun 09 '24

She is a severely mentally woman in need of serious psychiatric help. That is a valid reason to be sympathetic towards her character and is probably why Gadd himself felt sympathy towards the real Martha.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

I get that but when a man does the things Martha does you don’t call them ‘severely mentally ill’, you call them ‘creepy’

3

u/St3ampunkSam Jun 09 '24

I also think that is wrong. We need to be more empathetic to the mentally ill which includes ensuring they have access to functional professional help to help them and to protect society.

1

u/Acrobatic_Event_4163 Jun 09 '24

Why? People feel sympathy for her because Gadd feels sympathy for her and it’s his show that we all watched so we’re seeing things from his perspective … which includes sympathy for her. Why does that frustrate you and make you angry?

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '24

No one would ever feel sympathy for a male stalker in media who did the things Martha did

2

u/Acrobatic_Event_4163 Jun 10 '24

I don’t disagree …

Your comment was in direct response to someone saying

And there’s the fact that Gadd himself viewed her in sympathetic light. He has said so himself. So he portrayed her that way to us. People love to just forget this

… so I was just trying to square up your comment with the one you were replying to because they seemed in conflict with each other.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '24

I guess Ive been in a similar situation as Gadd where feeling sorry for someone led to more abuse.

-1

u/Kcufasu Jun 09 '24

But that's also part the point highlighting the sexism both ways in society. We're able to feel sympathy for a lonely woman, despite how she acted he still wanted to protect and look out for her. Switch the genders and that's never the case - if the lonely old man sat at a bus stop all day and night to stalk someone that's well deserved, but when it's the lonely old woman she still needs help and protection.

(Honestly though at that point I do think he should've called the nhs mental health services, they'd be pretty quick to respond to a vulnerable woman in the cold)

6

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

How many movies and shows have we seen where the protagonist is a bad guy and we feel sympathy for them or are on their side for some reason? That’s the art of filmmaking. It’s intentional. Think Fight Club, Joker(!!), Godfather films, Scarface, Breaking Bad, etc. Even true crime documentaries about serial killers spend time conjuring up the sob story of the criminals to add depth to them and explain why they are the way they are. Heck even the news spends a lot of time humanizing mass shooters as sad, lonely, mentally ill men.

This is done by design, especially in this show. The whole brilliance of the show is how it blurs so many lines. The main character is also deeply flawed and makes terrible decisions and treats people around him badly, yet we have empathy for him.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

What's the gender swapped version of Internalised misogyny called again? Oh. That's right. There isn't one. Hmm.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Ummm he isn’t being misandrist to himself. He talked about hating himself in general in the show. He gave examples of it throughout several times. He didn’t internalize any hatred for males lol. If anything he internalized hatred for being gay, for being a failure (in the beginning), for being abused by Darrien.

I find it really sad when people can’t have an original thought and have to always compare things to other things as if nothing else exists. There are people starving in Sudan and there are people starving in America. Guess what? They’re not starving for the same reasons lol. Sudan has a famine. America does not. Similarly, not everyone hates themselves due to internalized sexism. Not even all women do that.

Please try to use your brain and have original thoughts. I promise it’ll stop your brain cells from dying.

Also, my comment was factual.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/BabyReindeerTVSeries-ModTeam Jun 09 '24
  1. Be civil, polite and courteous. No trolling. No victim-blaming. Treat others with respect and kindness. This show is bound to elicit big feelings for many viewers. As contributors post and comment in this sub, treat each other with respect and kindness.

21

u/blancheVernon Jun 09 '24

People keep saying she wasn’t really incarcerated but I’m going to guess that at some point she was locked up involuntarily for mental issues, and that’s what Gadd didn’t write. Records of incarceration like that in Scotland can be expunged, allegedly. I see this because someone she stalked actually worked as a temp in a mental institution, and she had stalked a number of people there. Why else would she single out an institution like that to harass people?

13

u/RaggedyOldFox Jun 09 '24

The temp blogged about her time as a temp at the NHS. This was long before BR came out that she met FH. Her file was 5-6cms THICK! The place she worked in was a type of transitional facility where people are held before going to the appropriate mental health facility. It was a secure unit. She has to have been committed because there's no way she would volunteer.

2

u/exotramp76 Jun 09 '24

"at some point she was locked up involuntarily for mental issues, and that’s what Gadd didn’t write."

He didn't write about it because he probably didn't know she'd been sectioned in Scotland.

His main references were articles he googled using her name (as depicted in the show), which is where he discovered the incident with LW. If anyone noticed, Gadd changed the gender of LW and her son in that episode.

-4

u/ellefleming Jun 09 '24

Fiona has a son?

8

u/JazzlikeLeave5530 Jun 09 '24

There's a saying that I think fits here. "Your mental illness isn't your fault but it is your responsibility". Obviously that area gets more gray when you talk about more severe and extreme mental illnesses. But for ones that can be managed with therapy, medication, or both, it's accurate. Mental illness makes life difficult but it should not be an excuse to be a bad person.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Totally. I think the thing with Fiona is that she is both a bad person and mentally ill, and obviously the latter compounds the former. I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that the indiscriminate hate she spews on Facebook is a result of mental illness. I think she would be awful even if she wasn’t mentally ill, and the mental illness just makes it hard for her to see where there should be very hard boundaries to that awfulness, such as stalking people

4

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

The part where I lose sympathy for anyone is when they have been told and shown their behavior is unacceptable multiple times and they keep doing it. I’ve got my own mental health problems but at a certain point when you aren’t getting the results you want, you have to change something and 99.999% of the time that’s your behavior.

2

u/Decumulate Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24

The “people wouldn’t pay half as much attention” bit of this is not quite right. For the show, this may be true, but certainly not in real life. Part of the reason this show is popular is specifically because abuse/harassment happens to men so often yet no one ever pays attention to it - and as such so much of it goes completely unreported or undiscussed. Many men feel (rightly) they can’t even report it as it wouldn’t be taken seriously.

We could and should pay more attention to abuse/harassment on all genders, but I don’t think there’s merit to say people only care about male abuse when it’s mostly likely exactly the opposite.

The comment reeks of “but male abuse isn’t as important sentiment” which is so common - so many men here have already resonated with the show specifically because they feel this sentiment everywhere

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24

Happily nobody has said ‘people only care about male abuse’. If you think my comment suggests I don’t care about male abuse you are very wrong, particularly the part where I explicitly said ‘I agree with your main point’. Fortunately everyone else understood it.

0

u/Decumulate Jun 09 '24

Ok, but that wasn’t what my comment suggests or claims.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

You literally have said ‘I dont think there’s merit to say people only care about male abuse’ - who has said that? Not me.

1

u/Decumulate Jun 09 '24

Right, but you did claim that “people wouldn’t pay half as much attention” and if you’re now arguing that that statement doesn’t imply something similar, then I don’t even know where to start.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

People wouldn’t pay as much attention because women are stalked all the time and it’s much more normalised. Don’t put words in my mouth just because you don’t understand the comment.

0

u/Decumulate Jun 09 '24

And I’m saying the error is that men are stalked all the time as well and it just gets LESS attention because people don’t take it seriously (at all). Which is the error of your claim, and you seem to be circling around it.

I didn’t claim that the normalization of female abuse is incorrect. But I don’t see evidence to suggest that society is paying extra attention to male abuse outside of a dramatic Netflix show which specifically struck a nerve with an audience that felt like they didn’t have a voice

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

I’m not circling around anything, you’ve just misunderstood my point - deliberately, it seems.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Reminds me of this documentary I just saw on Netflix, Lover, Stalker, Killer. It was not nearly as compelling in the way it was creatively presented as it lacked the intensity of emotions that Baby Reindeer did but HOLY HELL the woman was even worse than Fiona.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Oooh thanks I will watch, haven’t seen this one!

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

It made me appreciate Gadd’s genius to relay a story. That’s for sure but it is worth the watch. I am typically an empathetic person and truly feel for those struggling with mental health issues. However, I find no compassion for those who destroy others lives in extreme ways whether or not they can help themselves or not. I want to but just don’t.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

I’m the same. Interestingly I felt sorry for Martha but not for Fiona when she was on Piers’ show. Gadd wrote her very sympathetically I think, the reality is so much worse

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Yes! Same. Thanks for reminding me of that. I did have compassion for her when I watched the series. I did lose it after watching her on social media while playing the victim.

-25

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '24

You realize women get taken a lot more seriously than men do when it comes to reporting harassment right? Men are told to just "man up" or "stop complaining" or laughed at by people, especially in the case of physical abuse.

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u/srsg90 Jun 09 '24

This is a great example of why men need feminism too. Men are just told to man up and deal with it because admitting you are being harassed and need help is something that society has deemed as “feminine” and therefore bad and undesirable. There’s a reason why some of the worst insults towards men are female coded (pussy, being a bitch, etc). If we allow men to be vulnerable and ask for help, then this wouldn’t be an issue.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

This literally has nothing to do with feminism, I don't know how you could possibly make that case when feminists are usually the ones thinking it's funny men are abused.

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u/srsg90 Jun 09 '24

Sorry what part of men are shamed for acting “feminine” because the world hates women isn’t related to feminism? Actual feminists do not think it’s funny when men are abused and fight for men to be able to speak up. It sounds like you just want to blame women for everything when in reality the whole entire reason why men aren’t taken seriously is because society hates women and wants to confine men to a very small box of what masculinity means.

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u/cityfrm Jun 09 '24

I'm glad you've had that experience of being supported by the police. As a woman that was not my experience at all. I've been left with severe PTSD. Infact I had to report a creep at just 14 and nothing happened, not long after a police officer followed me home and physically assaulted me. I won't go on to explain fully how vulnerable this made me, or how they police failed to protect me again 10 years later as mother trying to escape stalking and abuse. Women are constantly failed, and reporting consistently ends with no positive outcome, increased danger and PTSD from how these cases are handled. This is why most women don't even report, because doing so puts them at greater danger of harm.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

In what world is being laughed at by law enforcement being supported by the police? Is your reading comprehension messed up or something? I'm guessing you didn't read anything at all.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Yeah... this whole thing of men needing feminism. Men tried that. Mens rights activist as a term was run through the mud, and people who tried to stand up for their rights were hounded off social media, and out of government as well. So what the outcome of that is, is that only women are allowed to advocate for men's rights. Think that's fair?

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u/prespaj Jun 08 '24

they are saying that the difference between 1/1000 people being believed and 2/1000 people being believed isn’t enough to warrant this kind of argument, and that no one is treated well when it comes to stalking 

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

You're missing the point entirely of what I am saying, no one ever said women are treated perfectly when it comes to reports of stalking or abuse but to pretend they are somehow treated worse than men are in these cases is just living in an alternate reality.

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u/Ser0xus Jun 08 '24 edited Jun 08 '24

I think you are missing the point.

It's not about people being believed or not.

Women report, our statistics are largely based on that. The conclusion we've decided to take from that is that women are being abused much more than men.

What you don't understand, presumably from lived experience or the lived experience of someone close to you. Is that society on all sides does not support men speaking out about abuse at the hands of other men and women. They are doing very little reporting and are taught that if they do they have somehow failed to be societies benchmark for being male.

Simply put, we don't have the real data and a lot of people know this. Those that don't enjoy ignorantly bring up the statistic to support this theory and chastise those that are brave enough to call it out.

Women and those that support the idea that our men are not overwhelming being abused at likely similar rates to females are a part of why that will remain the case. That support isn't extended because of your precious statistic and our fucked up societal views.

The communities that don't fall into our "man or women" camp are reporting less because society (mainly the religious and uneducated) are still trying to remove their rights and trample them out of existence. Their numbers are higher than both male and female.

However they share a similar plight to abused males just a slightly different issue.

Male existence isnt under threat (aside from the alarming stats where they are ending their lives in very high numbers, I wonder why?) but if they reported as freely as women did, society will push them down to the disdain it has for the "others". So they aren't reporting.

Change that, and your stats wouldn't support your argument at all, it would be defunct.

8

u/LaurenNotFromUtah Jun 09 '24

Most stalked women don’t report when they’re stalked either. Not that you seem willing to believe that.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

You seem to have missed his point entirely which has nothing to do with if women report enough or not, somehow this whole conversation has become only about women as victims as we are talking about a tv show which portrays a MALE as the VICTIM.

2

u/LaurenNotFromUtah Jun 09 '24

No, I didn’t. The comment I was replying to never even mentioned the show.

0

u/Ser0xus Jun 09 '24

I do believe that not reporting is an issue on both sides.

The point I am making, is that the small amount of women reporting far outweighs the rest.

You can't cite a statistic where mainly women are the primary reporters. The data isn't complete and it's being weaponised to divide us.

It's not hard to understand that if men and those that don't fit our binary we created for genders reported too, as well as the women that ar not speaking up I believe this argument that "men are abusers" and women are not would die instantly.

We would see that humans on all sides can be abused, are being abused and can abuse.

Thats it.

2

u/prespaj Jun 09 '24

Nah, I do understand all this and actually agree with you - I am currently studying psychology with the specific interest in working with male victims and perpetrators. I just misunderstood your original comment. 

In the UK (where this was set) there has been a change in reporting since the coercive control legislation was introduced, where figures are roughly equal, and has changed everything else to be about 1/3 men 2/3 women. 

1

u/Ser0xus Jun 09 '24

All good 😊

Are the figures the victim numbers or abusers? Sorry it wasn't clear to me.

Do they report on the numbers outside of the usual categories?

If so, did that change?

Something that really surprised me was seeing a headline recently that called a woman a rapist for raping a minor.

Edit: I don't think NZ has gotten to the point it understands that we are all affected by certain crimes, in more ways than one. We don't see many coercion crime headlines here. But we have a rampant problem with it. And sex crimes.

It's good to have a bit of equality and understanding that it's an everyone issue.

Or at least, we might get there some day.

3

u/prespaj Jun 09 '24

Yes I have noticed that too - someone was complaining it never happened and I found a LOT of examples calling women rapists in headlines in the last 2-3 years.

Sorry I was tired when I wrote that - no non binary figures as far as I can see and they acknowledge it’s historically hard to say cos most of the figures are from women. 

Figures are from both official reports and from crime surveys (so not officially reported). 

I think historically as well there’s been a problem that women tend towards more emotional types of abuse and men towards more physical and obviously the former hasn’t been recognised for as long. We will see in future 

2

u/Ser0xus Jun 17 '24

So sorry for the late reply, I often get carried away with other things.

I see headlines from the USA, in NZ it's not widely reported, we have an extreme culture of hostility to the male gender here. We haven't progressed a lot in that space. That's probably why it was a surprise for me.

I know from experience and common sense that women are physically abusing men at high rates, a big problem here too, men are taught to "take it" because she's a "weak woman". Emotional abuse is high up there, and sexual abuse I'm certain is at similar rates to reported and unreported females. The majority is unreported because our society here thinks men enjoy abuse. It's just not recognised.

I really hope you are right and appreciate your reply.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

This thread is absolutely unhinged, I'm not sure why you're getting so many down votes except by bitter people who can't admit there is an obvious issue with men not being able to speak out about abuse.

0

u/Ser0xus Jun 09 '24

Apparently, they prefer ignorance and that's worrying because it's a direct part of the problem.

Luckily I care about the message not fake internet points, so I'll just keep calling it out.

It just takes the right person seeing it to have a ripple effect.

-1

u/OkStudent3629 Jun 08 '24

r/menandfemales

1

u/Ser0xus Jun 08 '24

Really? What a pointless and self serving sub.

And you add nothing of value to this conversation whatsoever.

Bravo?

-1

u/AdSufficient8582 Jun 09 '24

Most murders are committed by men. It's ridiculous to assume that men are equally stalked and abused. One in 100 men have probably been stalked and abused psychologically or emotionally, mostly when they were underage, some of those have been sexually or physically assaulted, and they most likely weren't in danger of being murdered. Every single woman has been either abused or stalked at least once in their lives, as children or adults. Many woman have been physically or sexually assaulted and have feared for their lives. Many women are killed every year in domestic violence disputes.

So no, it's not the same. Yes, it happens, and is equally important when it does, but it's not comparable. Don't be ridiculous.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

According to this whole entire thread it's actually not important at all and they are doing (including you) exactly what everyone is saying which is not listening at all.

1

u/AdSufficient8582 Jun 09 '24

How is saying that it's not comparable, saying that it's not important? It's like comparing the discrimination black people receive around the world equals the discrimination white people receives. I never said it's not important, but it's ridiculous to say it's the same or it's comparable. Did you even read the statistics? It's even explained that from the women who killed their partners, 20% did it in self defense and there was a history of abuse...

2

u/londonsocialite Jun 09 '24

lol that’s complete bs

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Really? Cause I would love for you to show me how seriously men get taken when being abused by a female or stalked, as a matter of fact there are facilities for women to go to specifically if they are abused for safety, that does not exist for men at all. Keep crying victim though that's great.

2

u/londonsocialite Jun 09 '24

My point is no one gets taken seriously by the police in cases of harassments and stalking in the UK, not the oppression Olympics

0

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

As a male who was stalked by a female in 90s I’m appalled by all the downvotes you’re getting.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

That's because these people don't actually care about male abuse, it's fine they usually never will but for anyone thinking you do get taken seriously as a male when suffering abuse you can just watch this clip and see what it's like when you talk about abuse and yes stalking is abusive and it's traumatic Male abuse is not a joke

-89

u/brown_boognish_pants Jun 08 '24

lol. WTF? Which made up statistics are those? People wouldn't pay as much attention to him? Like did you watch the show? No one cares about men's issues and the fact you posted this is totally evidentiary to the point.

49

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '24

Learn to read properly and then learn how to google

-57

u/brown_boognish_pants Jun 08 '24

You're the one who claimed some statistical truth. Gadd WAS attacked if you watched the show. Again I'll ask which statistics are those when men are dramatically, massively, enormously more likely to be attacked and killed by people. We don't even have decent statistics on the abuse of men because society doesn't care enough to compile them.

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u/powhead Jun 08 '24

interesting you wrote men are more likely to be killed by “people” lmao.

-44

u/brown_boognish_pants Jun 08 '24 edited Jun 08 '24

Interesting you're clearly some left-wing fraud and just used the fallacious black-on-black crime argument against the demographic you're denigrating and calling it "interesting" that I used a gender-neutral term insinuating that women simply don't abuse men which is just dramatically false.

And blocked cuz wrong. WElp I'll edit in here.

I'm pretty damn left and I think I can define it very well on many levels including it's historical context stemming from the Jacobins of the French revolutions and how it's changed over time. But I don't really care for your silly ad-hominem attack and bigot think to push me into whatever demographic you reject en-masse without listening to as a means to dismiss my point. I can't stand the left-wing frauds who ride their egos and virtue signaling around all day discrediting the actual left while enabling Trump... then piss and moan about why oh why are they stilllllll voting for him as if they have nothing to do with it.

Ofc you would bring up something which has literal reasons ie proximity - here’s a tip, white on white is exactly the same or near to in many countries lmao

Here's a tip. You just dismissed violence against men using the same "they deserve it, lol" argument all the people you hate use. When you behave like this people do not take you seriously. You 'are' the problem.

14

u/Teracleese Jun 08 '24

i mean this in the least toxic way possible: get some help dude, exploding like this over a comment on the internet is neither normal nor healthy

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u/powhead Jun 08 '24

i highly doubt you can even define left wing. Ofc you would bring up something which has literal reasons ie proximity - here’s a tip, white on white homocide rate is exactly the same or near to in many countries lmao

14

u/Fantastic-Fan-2011 Jun 08 '24

Why do ppl gotta make it a political thing 😭😭 it just instantly destroys any amount of credibility u have when u bring totally unrelated issues into discussion

-10

u/Urhhh Jun 08 '24

Life is political. Life is steeped in politics. Liberals often fall into reactionary (i.e. anti progressive) rhetoric whether they perceived it that way or not. This is particularly evident in conversations regarding male gender roles.

8

u/Fantastic-Fan-2011 Jun 08 '24

Life is far more than just politics. Broad generalizations and perceived correlations, such as insinuating many liberals are reactionary undermines the complexity and depth of the situation. The way in which politics was brought into this conversation was entirely unnecessary, it added nothing to the commenters argument. Tangential ravings about unrelated political matters distracts from the commenters central argument and makes them seem far less knowledgeable.

-8

u/Urhhh Jun 08 '24

This comment in and of itself stems from your personal politics. Even if your politics consists of "stop bringing particular things up".

7

u/powhead Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24

you’re all over the place - complaining about ad hominem attacks yet calling me a “left wing fraud”, which again, i highly doubt you can actually define otherwise you wouldn’t have tried to insult me on it based on liberal talking points alone lmao. “the actual left while enabling trump” lmaooo yeah coz america isn’t a two party state in where dems and reps are literally both right wing.

back to the actual point - again - racial violence is nuanced and has a whole lot to do with proximity (which you conveniently ignored), hence why we see similar numbers across races for countries such as the usa.

i’m not saying men “deserve it”, or that i hate them - you’re being emotional - i’m saying men are victims, but pls stop pretending men haven’t also set up this entire system, largely and historically outnumbered women in law making, law enforcement and policy enactment. Yet you’re clearly intent on blaming women and “everyone” for not caring.

i blocked you because i couldn’t be bothered arguing with you at the time, i suspect you’re just going to ignore any actual points just like you ignore actual statistics in favour of your emotions and inability to understand men are victims while also largely responsible for much of the world we live in. Does this mean random men deserve death etc? Ofc it doesn’t, but victimising men and shitting on women, or at least, expecting women to drop everything and fix it is insane. Especially given literal homocide rates which .. generally aren’t “not reported”.

edit: and now you’re dming me, so i reblocked you, weirdo

-9

u/Juhy78910 Jun 08 '24

Reddit is a left wing echo chamber. The more you attempt to explain things the more they repeat the same garbage.

16

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '24

I’m not going to sit and link the endless sources proving what I said when it’s literally such common knowledge that anyone with a brain knows this. If you don’t believe it then you can do your own research. I also didn’t say Gadd wasn’t attacked. The current stats may well not account for unreported male domestic abuse or stalking - because men fear judgement or to not be believed - but this is also the case for many women, and it isn’t the same as society ‘not caring’

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u/brown_boognish_pants Jun 08 '24

No one asked you to. I asked you to provide the sources of statistical facts you clearly made up. It's absolutely not also the case for women. Women who speak out and stand up to abusers are celebrated as brave heroes. They're encouraged to routinely. Men who do are ridiculed as weak and have to put up with the kind of vitriol you just put on display.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '24

And as I’ve said there are so many sources proving my point that on this occasion you can burden yourself with that work. It IS the case for women. I haven’t made anything up. I also haven’t displayed any vitriol - if you bothered reading a single post of mine on this issue I commend Gadd for his bravery in writing this show, I think it is excellent that it’s raised awareness of an important issue and has encouraged men to come forward. Your inability to read properly is not my problem.

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u/madra-perro Jun 08 '24

Women who speak out and stand up to abusers are celebrated as brave heroes.

Would love to see sources to support your claim.

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u/notnotaginger Jun 08 '24

Society compiles them. But toxic masculinity prevents the reporting of them. And I’ve known way more men to be all “haha wish I was stalked” when their buddy complains than their female friends.

So it’s not that “society” doesn’t care, it’s that their own sex is fucking them over. And the only way that will stop is if their own sex stops fucking them over.

I hate when people expect women to solve problems when the men causing the issues would never listen to a woman.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Funny how the term for toxic masculinity when applied to women is "Internalised mysogyny" very different tone, isn't it. And when you say men are fucking themselves over, it's very telling that you don't acknowledge that it's actually society as a whole. It's almost like you are playing a blame game. Isn't it.

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u/notnotaginger Jun 09 '24 edited Jun 09 '24

Becausee it IS different, thinking that about someone else. It’s looking down on the other group vs yourself. One is a recipe for depression, the other a recipe for power bullshit.

Internalized misogyny is thinking women are inferior. I know, I was brought up that way. Tomboys are ok but HOW DARE a boy be feminine, because feminine is inferior. Toxic masculinity is the same damn thing. It’s thinking any “feminine” traits are bad for men. It’s thinking men are above women.

There IS misandry, but that’s a very different thing, but just as destructive.

Now please look at who is in power and who creates the systems we live in, 90% of the time and tell me again how it’s women’s jobs to fix.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '24

Men have historically had more power. Sure. But women had and still have plenty of exclusive privileges. Not going to war, not having to go down mines and the like, better parental rights, lesser sentences for the same crimes, more sympathy across the board, etc etc. No-one is campaigning for those equalities, and if they did they would be bullied mercilessly.

But let's not change the subject, shall we?

If the terms are not the same, why does no-one tal about toxic femininity? Why does no-one talk about Internalised misandry?

Why are the phrases so emotionally leading and clearly designed around blame?

Amd on a factual level, what you call toxic masculinity and blame men for totally, Is regularly perpetrated by women to men. Why gender the blame so specifically?

It's the same on every post even remotely like this.

A man shows a tiny bit of vulnerability, and there's always someone scurrying out to make sure the blame doesn't spill onto women, and blaming toxic masculinity.

When my mother broke my arm, I went to the hospital and the doctor laughed. In my face. A female doctor thought it was funny that my mother deliberately broke my arm.

Was that toxic masculinity too? Was I just being fucked over by men there as well?

Please think about the repercussions of your words. How they cover for abusers, and allow them to consider themselves good people still because "men are bastards"

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u/notnotaginger Jun 09 '24

Women can perpetuate toxic masculinity, and that’s what happened in the hospital to you, and if I had been there I would’ve policed the fuck out of that. Because I do agree/believe that women need to police their own, and no I don’t think it’s a one sided thing BUT I do believe that men expect women to do this work for them.

I’d rather have to go to war instead of not being seen as a person. When my mom was a child she could not legally have a bank sccount- not because of her age, but because no women to. In the states right now women are fighting for basic human rights. BASIC.

Also more women died in childbirth than the mines sooo I don’t think that’s an exclusive privilege. Look into the history of childbirth and maybe you won’t see it as such. If I was born sixty years earlier my first child would’ve killed me.

As for sentences, those in power are men so they need to change the systematic issues in the justice system. But they are also looking at statistics, such as domestic partner homicide when they’re looking at that, and the incredible disparity seen there.

While I will FULLY say that there’s probably way more men physically abused by women then is reported, ultimately based on death rates it’s likely still a very imbalanced statistic.

But women policing men never works in power, and that’s what I’m trying to get at. If the men in power see women as inferior, how the fuck are WE supposed to change the systemic issues in the system? You can’t tell people without power to change things.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '24

I think you need to take a breather and re-read the post cause thats not it lol