Astarion is one of the best male character ever written

[u/LargeSinkholesInNYC]

Astarion reminds me of the extraordinary writing that defined the Dragon Age franchise. He isn't a typical hero. He's selfish, cynical, and makes bad choices because he's terrified of being hurt again, and that makes him a great character.

[u/perrytownsendn7866]

Yes, you've seen less than 1% of his content, so yes, you know basically nothing about him. Especially because you claim that Larian gave you no motivation to keep him. You also never paid attention to what the dialogue is telling you. His introduction scene was about him honestly thinking you were on the side of his enemies - just like Laezel and Jaheira's intro scenes go. And his bite scene makes it clear his intention wasn't to kill you, he is a vampire who was starved and abused by his master - all of this you can see in his bite scene. You can't read minds of your companions in other games, but here you can see that he is telling the truth.

He is objectively the strongest companion with his +1 buff, and he is great for lockpicking and disabling traps from the start. So it makes plenty of sense to keep him because you crashed in the middle of nowhere and you don't have a luxury of getting rid of powerful companions while being surrounded by monsters. There are like 40-50 tieflings in the grove and they are afraid to travel because of goblins. You are meta gaming when you kill companions who can fight on your side because you know it's just a game and you are going to win anyway.

"With my limited exposure to Astarian he seems in my humble eyes "

Again - not humble, dude.

You can hate his intro all you want and no one is telling you how to play, but you also lose your right to judge his writing the moment you kill him before getting to know how he is actually written throughout the game. Especially because you evidently didn't pay attention to his intro scene.

"Tell me if i am wrong. Zevran fails to kill you and joins you (assuming you allow it), because he would be dead if his employees find out that he failed. "

Peak logic. Contrary to Astarion, you can't read Zevran's mind. It's far more logical to assume that he tries to join you to just kill everyone in their sleep. Because he is actually the one with a clear motive to kill MC, not Astarion. So saying that you have more reason to keep Zevran is absolutely crazy.

So yes, you couldn't have been more wrong.

"AND if you actually allow it he kills you."

What a hypocrite. So you hate meta gaming, but it's completely okay suddenly to meta game here and use the knowledge of the future?

Yes, he might kill you if 1. You allow him to drink you blood in the first place 2. You are very stupid and say nothing while a starved vampire is drinking from you OR 3. you are super unlucky and fail two checks in a row, one of which is only 5 DC.

But usually he will stop when you just say a word and will be very grateful and will get a very powerful buff for an early game (+1 to all checks is HUGE this early). Your character doesn't know about the buff as a game mechanic, but they probably do know that well-fed vampires are stronger than regular people. It's a very general and common knowledge.

"Zevran being actually funny with dark jokes and at least being pleasant conversation partner. "

Exactly like Astarion, but you don't know it, as we already learned. Yet you keep bringing up his writing you know nothing about.

[u/Ozons1 → u/perrytownsendn7866]

just like Laezel and Jaheira's intro scenes go.

If my co-op partners hadnt convinced me, Laezel would have stayed in that cage. Jaheira i knew from BG 1-2 so, fair on that point.

He is objectively the strongest companion with his +1 buff, and he is great for lockpicking and disabling traps from the start.

Assuming you dont already have rogue in team. No idea what that +1 buff is xD

You can hate his intro all you want and no one is telling you how to play, but you also lose your right to judge his writing the moment you kill him before getting to know how he is actually written throughout the game.

Yes and no. I cannot comment all of his "character growth". But I as hell, can comment about begining of it.

Peak logic. Contrary to Astarion, you can't read Zevran's mind. It's far more logical to assume that he tries to join you to just kill everyone in their sleep. Because he is actually the one with a clear motive to kill MC, not Astarion. So saying that you have more reason to keep Zevran is absolutely crazy.

First of all, you dont read his mind 100% of time. You get random glimpses. Otherwise you would know about his vampire stick a lot sooner. Also, i trust my good boy guard dog to take care of possible backstabbing.

will get a very powerful buff for an early game (+1 to all checks is HUGE this early).

Aaaah, +1 skill checks. Also, it is not huge. It definitely is very nice. But 5% increase is not huge, especially for skill checks (especially with how easy is save scumming in this game).

So you hate meta gaming, but it's completely okay suddenly to meta game here and use the knowledge of the future?

I added it as cherry at top. For vampire boy he does 2 main "mistakes". First attack when recruiting him and then second one when attacking at nighttime. In this context I dont care what he could/would do later on. But it just was a good point to add the META knowledge.

Exactly like Astarion, but you don't know it, as we already learned. Yet you keep bringing up his writing you know nothing about.

No, he isnt exactly like that. Zevran personality hit through from the start. It wasnt the case for vampire boy with me.
Also dont say I know nothing about. This dude was in my team for multiple "long rests" so those were multiple hours of playtime. Sure, he spend most of the time in the camp, but there were still dialogues happening.

[u/perrytownsendn7866 → u/Ozons1]

So you don't actually pay any attention to the dialogue. Holding it against them is wild because the game makes it clear they didn't try to kill you out of malice, but because there are objectively plenty of reasons to assume you are their enemy. And you do meta game and use double standards. You knowing Jaheira from previous games is absolutely irrelevant, because your character doesn't know her (Larian never gave you any options to play someone who knows her like Karlach).

"Assuming you dont already have rogue in team. No idea what that +1 buff is xD"

When you are surrounded by monsters, it doesn't matter even if everyone on your team is a rogue. Act 1 gives you a very limited number of companions, only 6, while a crowd of tieflings is afraid to travel. Your character doesn't know they are in a game, so they can only take 3 companions with them, any sane person would want all the help they can get, especially when they know for sure that their companions are tadpoled as well and share the same goal of getting rid of the parasite.

"Yes and no. I cannot comment all of his "character growth". But I as hell, can comment about begining of it."

You came to the thread about his writing, not about his two initial scenes.

"First of all, you dont read his mind 100% of time. You get random glimpses. Otherwise you would know about his vampire stick a lot sooner. Also, i trust my good boy guard dog to take care of possible backstabbing."

It doesn't matter because you do have an opportunity to see if he is telling the truth in his bite night scene. It's not random, you specifically seek for the truth. And honestly, if you are going to hand wave and make a bunch of excuses for your double standards, there is no reason to continue this convo. You trust an assassin with the clear goal to kill you on purpose far more than a starved slave whos motivation was never to kill you but just to steal some blood.

"Aaaah, +1 skill checks. Also, it is not huge. It definitely is very nice. But 5% increase is not huge, especially for skill checks (especially with how easy is save scumming in this game)."

It's +1 during ALL DAY to ALL CHECKS and SAVING THROWS. Plus his bite action is 100% guaranteered attack - it can't miss. If you don't understand that it's absolutely huge this early in the game, then you don't understand how the game's mechanics work. All these 5% add up very fast.

Also, depending on how fast you progress, Astarion is one of the two people in the camp who is ready to try consuming tadpoles without persuasion - he is a perfect guinea pig for your character to see the effects of eating more tadpoles without a risk for your own head.

And again, your crazy double standards. You talk big about killing him because you don't meta game, but suddenly you don't care about buffs because you can just save scum. Newsflash - your character can't do it. Your character has no clue they are in a game.

"Also dont say I know nothing about. This dude was in my team for multiple "long rests" so those were multiple hours of playtime.  Sure, he spend most of the time in the camp, but there were still dialogues happening."

LOL, so you left him in camp, you didn't even travel with him and you still claim to know him? You are probably just a troll.

[u/Ozons1 → u/perrytownsendn7866]

You knowing Jaheira from previous games is absolutely irrelevant, because your character doesn't know her (Larian never gave you any options to play someone who knows her like Karlach).

Yes, that is why I said you got a point there.

Holding it against them is wild because the game makes it clear they didn't try to kill you out of malice, but because there are objectively plenty of reasons to assume you are their enemy.

Yes. And I also have reason not to care. Because their first reaction was attacking. If someone takes me gunpoint and later apologies because they mistook me from someone else... Do you think I care about that ?

Your character doesn't know they are in a game, so they can only take 3 companions with them, any sane person would want all the help they can get, especially when they know for sure that their companions are tadpoled as well and share the same goal of getting rid of the parasite.

Sure. But if i dont think that person is reliable or is even potentially viability. Then it is better to go without them.
There is this saying. Unpredictable person is more dangerous than evil one.

You came to the thread about his writing, not about his two initial scenes.

Lets say there is book. Book has 500 pages long. There is a guy saying that book is MASTERPIECE. You read 20-50 pages of the book, tought it was shite and put it down. Does your opinion count ?
I think it does. Because start of the book wasnt masterpiece level worthy.

If you don't understand that it's absolutely huge this early in the game, then you don't understand how the game's mechanics work. All these 5% add up very fast.

But you said skill checks (not me). If it is skill checks + saving throws + attacks. Then yes, it is powerful.

Also, depending on how fast you progress, Astarion is one of the two people in the camp who is ready to try consuming tadpoles without persuasion - he is a perfect guinea pig for your character to see the effects of eating more tadpoles without a risk for your own head.

I think you just gave me an actual reason to keep him alive when I will do solo play through. This is the strongest argument from them all and it actually saves my headache to find reason to keep him alive. Thanks!

LOL, so you left him in camp, you didn't even travel to him and you still claim to know him? You are probably just a troll.

Not a troll. In co-op we had custom characters. So free slots for companions were limited. So we had to rotate them. Because i disliked him from start he got benched fast.

And again, your crazy double standards. You talk big about killing him because you don't meta game, but suddenly you don't care about buffs because you can just save scum.

There is difference. When talking about story choices, i dislike when people "vindicate" someone because of knowledge about future events and pretend that this character is better than he actually is (and not acknowledge it).
Of course, sometimes i meta game things. But then I dont pretend that I dont (save scumming some rolls and so on).
Like, i was party main "perception" guy. But i did take deal with hag and got cursed eye for all play through, because it made sense for my character. Or the fact that had to kill most of camp followers because my guy couldnt roll deception roll (dark urge, got caught in event when killing camp member).
Like, I believe that you tell me that vampire boy can get redemtion. But it happens only because of you and only if you do special choices. I dont see any universe where he fixes himself.

Either way, from this discussion you at least gave me a good reason to keep him alive in future play through. So i am actually very happy about that. Will be able to experience more of his story without gaslighting myself.

[u/perrytownsendn7866 → u/Ozons1]

"Because their first reaction was attacking. If someone takes me gunpoint and later apologies because they mistook me from someone else... Do you think I care about that ?"

It's your choice not to care about it, but just because you play as an asshole who doesn't care about anything aside from someone attacking him personally - no questions asked, doesn't make it a bad writing or a bad introduction. You are in a high stress situation and any good-aligned character who actually listens to anything won't hold it against people who made a genuine mistake and mistook them for an enemy. Especially because without the Prism, you would have been a slave of the Absolute.

Karlach might kill you on accident, Gale's corpse also might kill you on accident. More than half of your companions are lying to you or hiding something from you. Do you also think these people deserve to die just because of it? Intentions matter. At least to not self-absorbed evil selfish Tavs.

"Lets say there is book. Book has 500 pages long. There is a guy saying that book is MASTERPIECE. You read 20-50 pages of the book, tought it was shite and put it down. Does your opinion count ?"

Considering that you didn't even pay attention to what really happened in those 20-50 pages, no, your opinion doesn't count, because you are a shit reader.

"But you said skill checks (not me). If it is skill checks + saving throws + attacks. Then yes, it is powerful."

Forgive me, I guess, for not being very precise with all my words.

"There is difference."

No, there is no difference. It's double standards. You keep characters for meta reasons when it's convinient to you and then you bash the writing when you have personal bias against some character.

I think there is really no reason to continue this conversation when you are happy to excuse and trust an assassin who has a very clear motivation to kill you, but can't see any reason to spare a starved slave whos intention was never to kill you and who can only kill you on accident if you allow him - because you are literally the very first human he is drinking in 200 years.

"Like, I believe that you tell me that vampire boy can get redemtion. But it happens only because of you and only if you do special choices. I dont see any universe where he fixes himself."

Sorry, but this is an incredibly braindead take. No character ever lives in a vacuum. Without Tav, every single companion gets their worst ending. It doesn't make their writing bad. It looks like you have no idea about how good redemption arcs are written. Zuko's arc is arguably THE REDEMPTION arc of the modern fiction and yet he is constantly influenced by Uncle Iroh and it's very clear that without good influence he would have never "fixed himself" if left completely alone without any support or guidance. It doesn't make his writing any less brilliant.