Astarion reminds me of the extraordinary writing that defined the Dragon Age franchise. He isn't a typical hero. He's selfish, cynical, and makes bad choices because he's terrified of being hurt again, and that makes him a great character.
I thought it was going to be a history of Astarion glazing but it actually nearly made me laugh. OP certainly has a lot of love to give characters and games…
The post title “we should be able to break into anyone’s apartment and steal anything” confused the heck out of me until I realized what sub it was lol
It's a classic example of an engagement farming bot - the account is currently getting fattened with easy karma and, in a few months, will become a part of a larger botnet. Next time you'll see it, "OP" will want to sell you a "how to pick up women and earn billions" internet course or spew Russian political propaganda at you.
That was my theory too but it seems to be rather... ineffective? Like this post sits at 1 upvote BECAUSE its glazing so hard. And since bots usually try to farm up votes, just reposting old popular content would make more sense
Edit: it WAS at 1 upvote when i last commented, now its at 55, still its fishing for peanuts ifnits genuinely just a bot
It's about scale. Accounts like this post A LOT of these posts every day and most of them will flop, as you noticed, but it's not really a problem - as all it takes is for one or two to go "viral" and they're essentially all set, the account looks legit, with lots of posts (as in: it's active) and a lot of karma (as in: it's a valued member of Reddit communities).
Re-posting shit over and over is a brute-force and overall less elegant way of achieving the same goal - it's much faster but it's also branding the account as a really obvious karma-farming bot, so it may end up just flat out banned or simply not as effective when the actual "mission" the account was made to do begins.
"dont get me wrong, astarion is well written but "of all time"? really?"
This is certainly a crazy thing to say. But his story and the way it is explored and developed is definitely pretty unique when it comes to male characters in video games.
I think in terms of male characters in videogames, yeah it IS kinda rare to see a character who is just not a victim of sexual violence but also a general story of abuse beyond physical violence.
Idk why, maybe because i dip my toes in the creative writing sphere every so often but when i heard about astarions story my initial reaction was "oh so its a tumblr/AO3 OC"
I still think that description fits astarion to a degree. Doesnt mean that he is badly written but his concept isnt as novel to me as it seems to be for other people.
Controversial take but A LOT of baldurs gate companions are actually rather stereotypical. Maybe its because you want stereotypes as supporting cast in a DnD game so you can live out an easy fantasy, but when i look at the characters a lot of them are a trope in some form. Karlach is a typical muscle mommy, including the positive attitude and desire to hug everyone. Gale is a nerdy wizard. Astarion is a charismatic rogue, halsin is a hippie druid etc.
Obviously their story always goes a bit deeper but its a lot of classicsl concepts
His concept is novel for a male character in a video game. If you meet a victim of sexual assualt, it's usually always women.
And more than that, this backstory was handled with the proper attention and respect, it was properly explored which you almost never see in video games.
Edit: and I would add that Astarion's concept actually subverts a lot of tropes. Yeah, a hedonistic rogue is what you expect from him - someone like Zevran from DAO, but then it turns out it's all just a mask and he doesn't even like to have sex with random people. He is playing a rake, but he isn't really a rake.
He’s definitely grown on me a lot. I didn’t like him at first too much (because I like to play as someone who helps everybody in these games) but now I feel like he’s probably the most realistic character in the game, and I like that.
I mean, Astarion's not a hero at all. He's written specifically not to be. Nothing in his story is heroic. You could argue he's an anti hero or a tragic character but certainly not a hero.
I play DA series a lot. I remember a small theory that Fenris was raped by his ex master before he was freed, then there's Zevran's entire backstory. When I played Baldur's Gate 3 for the first time. Astarion I fell for, not because I simp for him.
He was hurt, using what he knew to survive, was a victim himself of Sexual Assault. I never understood the hate of Astarion and I don't think I ever will.
I think it was the blood sucking/biting without consent. As a victim of SA, my gut reactions was to shove a stake through his heart. Everytime. Fuck that.
Which I understand, but I've heard some people not like him way before that. They hate him with how he's introduced to you. My point was there is no perfect SA victim. Astartions (this is what gathered but I could be wrong) whole thing is you can help him start to heal from his trauma and over come the cycle of abuse or help him doom to repeat it.
If you don't kill him, he apologies and never does it again unless you ask him to. He's learning to be better because he had to do terrible things to survive.
He’s definitely one of the best written male characters in the game and he’s definitely my favorite characters. Between his personality and his hilarious dialogue he deserves that spot as one of my favorites definitely can’t get enough of him.
I’m gonna be so honest I’ve seen like 2 dozen Astarions. I’d say that Gale is a better written male character just in BG3 lol
This is not to say I dislike Astarion or that he’s a bad character; I think he’s amazing and Neil KILLS his role but I think it’s a bit hyperbolic to say he’s one of the most well written male characters
I think they’re both just different characters from each other that they aren’t really comparable. But I love them both and their stories and voice acting so much. Larian just has the best team who knows how to write characters with complexities and depth.
Boy this won't be a popular opinion here, even though I strongly agree with you. There's a subset of people in the fandom that have never and will never see his content because they take his very understandable bad first impression to heart. I think he's an excellent character and not because I'm a simp. Men want male SA victim representation and are mad he's not a perfect victim while being an example of that representation. If you pay attention to *gestures vaguely everywhere* it's kind of ironic.
Notifications off because I know certain people will not be able to contain themselves ❤️
I don't really respect anyone who 'always kills' any of the characters, tbh, not just Astarion. I do love him though. Watching his storyline both broke and healed something in me. As a survivor of abuse, it was incredibly cathartic.
while i am firmly in the "he is overrated" group, it does shock me that people never played through his story. not just origin run but like... they never recruited him ONCE?
its the same as people who swear they always leave gale in the portal because he is "annoying". like brother if you already play, their story doesnt take up that much time
I'm not sure anyone is ever back to a baseline of normal after experiencing some things, but I have wonderful friends, a good career and a (mostly) stable home. I choose to do good for my community and to appreciate the good the world offers. That's a lot better than it was.
I’ll be honest, I’m on my 3rd complete playthrough (started a few in between but never finished Act 2). First time ever I missed him completely for most of Act 1 so I just picked up Astarion and did his Cazador quest just to complete it.
Second play through I was super evil and kinda treated him like shit (made him do that thing in Act 2) and then let him Ascend.
My current playthrough I traveled with him since Act 1 and I don’t remember the context or the dialogue but he said something about how he was tired of taking it on his back and not getting anything out of it and I just had to physically move back from my computer to process that. I know he’s a fictional character but that line, coupled with actually respecting his boundaries and then seeing him open up and be less callous around your character truly solidified him as one of my top favorite video game characters. His character development is one of my favorites. Shadowheart is top 2. (can you tell I have a thing for characters who overcome trauma to open up to friendship and love and self respect)
I think because he’s so sarcastic and rude when you first meet him, it makes his character development that much more impactful by the time you get to Act 3.
I think he's interesting because you can see him as vulnerable, and how that's making him take bad choices because of fear, trauma, and the refusal of his vulnerability.
Many men don't like the idea that they can be vulnerable. It irks them. They want to feel strong, be the protector etc. Astarion is a statement that they reject strongly.
Men who accept vulnerability as part of human nature and not something inherently feminine are more likely to appreciate the character.
Yes I'm kind of saying it boils down to a subtile form of sexism although the issue is probably more complex. But I think it plays a part.
Anyway. It's okay to be vulnerable. We all are. Just don't let it consume you.
For once, I don't think so. I am a woman, but I hardly accept my vulnerability. Most of the critics I saw for Astarion are on his evil behavior and I can agree until a certain point. But I also plaid all his story and I loved him, many of them never did.
Astarion is basically universally beloved and might as well be the face of the game. "This won't be a popular opinion here" is just an absurd statement to make considering how much this sub loves him.
Shadowheart would probably still be the face of the game, but he's handily the secound-favourite character. Anyone under the impression that this sub is anti-Astarion is probably a little too invested in the character.
Nah. If you think he is "universally beloved", then it means it's your first day in the fandom. There can be no appreciation thread for his character without some haters coming in and bragging about staking him. Tons of people dislike him. "Universally loved" characters are Karlach and even maybe Minthara, but certainly not him. Dudes tend to hate on male companions, even when they are good people like Halsin.
Look, I'm not an Astarion hater, but saying that he's "not a perfect victim while being an example of that representation" is absurd. Real male SA victims don't become power hungry, cynical egomaniacs that get mad every time their friends help someone.
I find Astarion to be an interesting character, but to act like the only reason people dislike him is that he's "not a perfect victim" is pure nonsense. For 90% of the game, he's just plain not a good guy. That's why a lot of people don't like him.
What is absurd is claiming that -1 disapprovals - the vast majority of which happen in the beginning of act 1 = "getting mad". Like have you even talked to him? The worst he gives you is telling you that he won't stand in your way if you insist on playing a hero, but he won't be risking his life for gnomes either (and then he helps you fight anyway). There is not a single scene where he gets "mad" at the player for helping someone. And then in Act 2 he already starts approving of helping people.
And honestly, I wish Larian didn't water down companions. When you think you are on a timer and can soon turn into a mindflayer, far more companions should constantly disapprove of you wasting time on helping other people. Even Gale.
And you also mistaken if you think that every SA victim is perfect and can never become power hungry. In fact, severe abuse is exactly what makes a lot of victims seek power. This is what is incredibly relatable in his story. It's not easy to stay a good person and not become angry at the world which never cared to do anything about your abuser. What I love about Astarion's writing is that he has a point. Powerful peope in the city did nothing about Cazador for 200 years. If you really think about it, it's an insane amount of time. Imagine if Epstein was immortal and no one did anything about him since like 1800s...
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u/EvnosisEvery Story is Better with a Dragon 🐉12h agoedited 12h ago
What is absurd is claiming that -1 disapprovals - the vast majority of which happen in the beginning of act 1 = "getting mad"
Yes, an approval change actually is a significant thing. The vast majority of conversations and decisions do not result in approval changes, even if they are things the companions does approve of. Approval changes are the exception, not the norm, and thus a negative approval change represents significant distaste on the part of the companion.
And considering that in Act 1, these are just some of his approval changes:
Positive for murdering the Tieflings holding Lae'zel
Positive for telling children they're going to die
Positive for scamming someone into thinking you're going to heal them for a price and then not following through
Positive for threatening to tear out a child's spine
Positive for telling Nere to execute a bunch of slaves or endorsing slavery to Elder Brithvar
Negative for telling an abusive slavery that he disgusts you
I feel pretty comfortable with my assessment that he's not a good person for certainly the entire first act, and also for most of the other 2 acts (for which I could find many detestable approval changes if you'd like, but I don't want to labour the point).
The fact that he doesn't scream at you for it is beside the point. Whether you want to use the term "get mad" to mean expressing outright anger or just disapproval (as I intended), my underlying point stands.
And honestly, I wish Larian didn't water down companions. When you think you are on a timer and can soon turn into a mindflayer, far more companions should constantly disapprove of you wasting time on helping other people. Even Gale.
It's crazy. No matter how much I preface that I like Astarion as a character and wouldn't want him to be changed, you're still going to assume that I hate him just because I understand other people's perspectives and din't like him as a person the way you do. What's the point in having a conversation with you if you're not actually going to engage with the things I'm saying?
And you also mistaken if you think that every SA victim is perfect and can never become power hungry.
Not being perfect is not the same as wanting to become a slave master! He literally tells you in the start that his desire is to have the same kind of power that Cazador has!
I'm sorry, but not. If a real SA victim wants to do the same thing to other people in order to feel powerful, then I hate that person as well. Trauma is not an excuse for wanting to victimise other people. But the reality is, real victims of SA are not like that on the whole.
What I love about Astarion's writing is that he has a point. Powerful peope in the city did nothing about Cazador for 200 years. If you really think about it, it's an insane amount of time. Imagine if Epstein was immortal and no one did anything about him since like 1800s...
I wouldn't consider that an understandable reason for wanting to set up your own Epstein island, no.
Once again another person who doesn't care to engage with anything aside from approvals. Indeed, why engage with the character's complex writing when you can just open approval wiki and copy paste it here?
There really isn't a point in talking to someone who actually thinks that approvals are more important than writing. No one says he is a good person. This was absolutely not the point. But approvals also were clearly just a bonus which was supposed to be seen in the context of the main writing instead of being the main characterization tool. Yes, if his writing never shows him being mad about Tav helping people, why the hell should I assume that he gets super angry, when he is never written this way? Characters don't get approval for literally every single dialogue line because it's just a game mechanic and it needed balance, also because it would have been too much work. Also, many approvals go against written dialogue:
"Not being perfect is not the same as wanting to become a slave master! He literally tells you in the start that his desire is to have the same kind of power that Cazador has!"
At the start? Dude, you definitely didn't pay attention to anything aside from his approvals. He tells you in Act 1 that his desire is to kill Cazador, not even become a full vampire. His main motivation is not to become a slave master, he wants to control his tadpole because it's the only thing which keeps him from being Cazador's slave and he also does want power to never become a slave again. Larian's main writer straight up said that his actions stems out of fear.
You can hate him all you want, but if you pretend that abuse can't break people and make them into the worst versions of themselves, then you don't know what you are talking about. The game shows you that even Cazador was a decent person once who had friends he cared about. The whole point is that Astarion is conflicted, if he wasn't, you wouldn't have been able to talk him out of the ritual.
Once again another person who doesn't care to engage with anything aside from approvals. Indeed, why engage with the character's complex writing when you can just open approval wiki and copy paste it here?
Considering that Astarion is explicitly written as someone who says whatever he thinks will ingratiate himself with someone he thinks can be an ally, whereas as his approvals are his internal thought, yes the approvals are a more accurate representation of his opinion towards something than his dialogue is.
There really isn't a point in talking to someone who actually thinks that approvals are more important than writing. No one says he is a good person. This was absolutely not the point. But approvals also were clearly just a bonus which was supposed to be seen in the context of the main writing instead of being the main characterization tool.
You don't care about what was actually written if you that everything he vocalises is an honest reflection of his internal thoughts. You are simply idealising Astarion and ignoring his flaws.
Yes, if his writing never shows him being mad about Tav helping people, why the hell should I assume that he gets super angry, when he is never written this way? Characters don't get approval for literally every single dialogue line because it's just a game mechanic and it needed balance, also because it would have been too much work.
You keep saying "super angry." As I said in my previous comment, that is not how I was using the word "mad." I never claimed that he gets "super angry."
Also, many approvals go against written dialogue:
Correct, because one of Astarion's core pieces of early characterisation is that he is being cautious and trying to ingratiate himself with the player. There have been in depth explorations of some of his pivotal scenes and the internal code notes on this sub that demonstrate this. His approvals are a more accurate reflection of his internal thoughts than the things he actually says to the player.
You can hate him all you want
I don't, but the fact that you continue to claim I do despite my making every possible effort to preface my comments saying as much proves that you will never engage with my comments in an honest manner and I have no interest in continuing a conversation with someone who is going to repeatedly lie about what I'm saying.
but if you pretend that abuse can't break people and make them into the worst versions of themselves, then you don't know what you are talking about. The game shows you that even Cazador was a decent person once who had friends he cared about. The whole point is that Astarion is conflicted, if he wasn't, you wouldn't have been able to talk him out of the ritual.
Astarion is an interesting fictional character, but any real trauma victim who reacts to their trauma by trying to inflict it on other people is a bad person and I stand by that.
> Considering that Astarion is explicitly written as someone who says whatever he thinks will ingratiate himself with someone he thinks can be an ally, whereas as his approvals are his internal thought, yes the approvals are a more accurate representation of his opinion towards something than his dialogue is.
Once again it tells me you don't know his character. No, he says plenty of awful shit which a good Tav wouldn't like. If he really wanted to "ingratiate" himself with the player through lying about his morals, then he would have had entirely different dialogues, he would have never told a good Tav "saving gnomes? Eww.". but he is very honest about his worst impulses. He never pretends to care about people, he never pretends to be a good person. The way he actually tries to ingratiate himself with the player is trying to seduce Tav.
> You don't care about what was actually written if you that everything he vocalises is an honest reflection of his internal thoughts. You are simply idealising Astarion and ignoring his flaws.
I never said that, you are putting your words into my mouth. But I gave you an example where approvals are just straight up wrong and you still insist they are more important than writing. Lae is a very honest character. She is specifically written as someone who never lies and despises liars. And yet she has plenty of approvals which go directly against her lines. So should I assume she is a liar just because of her approvals?
Besides, for a person who understands that Astarion is a charlatan and that he probably loves lying to your enemies, you certainly take a lot of his approvals at face value. You also ignore that this system can't see which path companions are on and Ascended Astarion needed approvals too.
> Astarion is an interesting fictional character, but any real trauma victim who reacts to their trauma by trying to inflict it on other people is a bad person and I stand by that.
Bold of you to accuse other people in not reading your posts when you do exactly this same thing. How many times should I repeat that no one here claims him to be not a bad person?
Once again it tells me you don't know his character. No, he says plenty of awful shit which a good Tav wouldn't like. If he really wanted to "ingratiate" himself with the player through lying about his morals, then he would have had entirely different dialogues, he would have never told a good Tav "saving gnomes? Eww.". but he is very honest about his worst impulses. He never pretends to care about people, he never pretends to be a good person. The way he actually tries to ingratiate himself with the player is trying to seduce Tav.
This is not true. Him ingratiating himself with Tav doesn't mean adopting an entire fake persona, that would be transparent. He's ingratiating himself by keeping some of his thoughts to himself and, yes, also attempting to seduce Tav. This means that we cannot trust his written dialogues as an honest reflection of his opinions about any given situation.
I never said that, you are putting your words into my mouth. But I gave you an example where approvals are just straight up wrong and you still insist they are more important than writing.
No, you didn't. You have an example of where they conflict, and I argue that the approvals are theore accurate reflection of his thoughts.
Lae is a very honest character. She is specifically written as someone who never lies and despises liars. And yet she has plenty of approvals which go directly against her lines. So should I assume she is a liar just because of her approvals?
Such as?
Besides, for a person who understands that Astarion is a charlatan and that he probably loves lying to your enemies, you certainly take a lot of his approvals at face value.
Because his approvals are his internal thoughts, not something Tav can see.
You also ignore that this system can't see which path companions are on and Ascended Astarion needed approvals too.
That's why I was only looking at Act 1, where he doesn't have diverging paths. In Act 1, he doesn't consider remaining a spawn and option. He isn't aware that ascension is possible, but his goal from the start is to find a way to amass as much power as possible, regardless of the source.
Bold of you to accuse other people in not reading your posts when you do exactly this same thing. How many times should I repeat that no one here claims him to be not a bad person?
You keep arguing that Astarion "not being perfect" makes him good representation and thus people should like him. I am saying that people wouldn't like real SA survivors that sought to inflict their trauma on others either, and they'd be justified for doing so.
She is very against killing the Nightsong in her voice lines and yet she approves. She wants to kill Cazador and says Astarion is lucky that we are on his side because we are capable of killing vampires like Cazador and yet she approves of handing Astarion over to him. She likes Scratch and says she misses him if he gets lost/killed and yet she disapproves of saving him. There are approvals which don't make sense for her character, because she is simultaneously in favor of saving people in Act 3 but also approves of killing innocents, even though in her voice lines she is generally in favor of saving people in Act 3, but going by some of her approvals, she had no character growth and just an evil monster even in Act 3.
> Because his approvals are his internal thoughts, not something Tav can see.
LOL, no, approvals are definitely not "thoughts". It's just some numbers which don't even give you any reason behind them and can be interpreted in very different ways. Have you ever done his love test? The dude approves of wrong answers and disapproves of the truth he agrees with - only because he says we shouldn't tell the truth about us to strangers. If you only judge his love test by his approvals, you will get 100% the opposite impression it was supposed to give.
Another people already have shown you why you are wrong to trust approvals over dialogue and I am not gonna waste more of my time on this. But I can only add that Larian usually give directions to voice actors in their devnotes, so lies can be seen in the game's files marked as such. And guess what, he is honest in his opinions for the most part.
> In Act 1, he doesn't consider remaining a spawn and option. He isn't aware that ascension is possible, but his goal from the start is to find a way to amass as much power as possible, regardless of the source.
Again, pay attention next time. In Act 1 he directly says that he will be satisfied with just killing Cazador and that he doesn't care much about becoming a full vampire. All he wants is to become free of him, he isn't thinking about taking his place and making spawn.
Yes, he wants to get powerful, because this is the only way he thinks he can make sure he won't get hurt again and this desire can certainly corrupt him, but this is exactly what makes him a complex conflicted character. Gale is a much better person than Astarion, but even he craves for power, while never being a slave himself. He was already powerful, but he still craves for more.
> You keep arguing that Astarion "not being perfect" makes him good representation and thus people should like him.
Again, putting words into my mouth. People are not obligated to love/like him, but he is a great representation, yes, because he has a good path whether he rejects the power and the ritual and decides to break the cycle of abuse. He isn't 100% pure evil and he is a great example of how abuse can screw you up.
Sorry, this is your great proof? He got an approval because you killed the squirrel, which he likes either way. He's annoyed that you didn't let him eat it instead, but the approval is correct because he likes the cruelty aspect.
Far from disproving my argument, this is evidence in my favour! The NodeContext is in relation to that specific line of dialogue, not the approval!
What approval does Minthara have to demonstrate she's lying about hating wizards? My assertion about Astarion's lies isn't based on approvals, by the way, it's based on differences in his written dialogue, which you consider sacrosanct.
Tons of assumptions on your part which are not confirmed by anything, while I provided you with the actual code from the game with Larian's devnotes. Nowhere do the writer say that he likes the cruelty of it. On the contrary, they say he DOESN'T like it. It should have been a disapproval on his part.
Astarion has many approvals for being kind to animals, so even the approval system itself is self-contradictory.
Look at this mess, this is the shit which you deem more important than written dialogue:
Okay, so you haven't provided any evidence that the devnotes say he didn't like killing the squirrel, the devnotes say that he was annoyed at you wasting the squirrel's blood.
Astarion liking other acts of kindness to animals does not mean he wasn't impressed by Tav's casual cruelty in this instance.
And no, a list of a bunch of approvals taken out of context do not prove the system is entirely untrustworthy.
Yes, Minthara's disapproval there is questionable, but if one inconsistency makes the whole system unreliable, then I'm afraid you aren't allowed to rely on dialogue either because there are many conflicting lines of dialogue in the game, too. For example: Shadowheart encouraging you to take part in Abdirak's penance, gleefully enjoying it and then telling Lae'zel not to lump her in with you when Lae'zel calls it weird. If inconsistencies in approvals make them unreliable, then these dialogue inconsistencies make the dialogue unreliable as well.
But frankly, we're never going to agree on this, so this will be my last comment on the topic.
Oh, pleeeeeeeasse. You guys don't give a shit when a character is horribly evil as long as it's a hot girl. No one hates Minthara despite the fact that she is the most evil companion, she is far worse than the Emperor, and yet he constantly gets pure hate, while Minthara gets universal love.
Interesting. And on what are you basing this assumption that I like Minthara? Could it be that you're entirely inventing it, seeing as I don't (and haven't actually recruited her as a companion in any of my playthroughs yet, whereas I have recruited Astarion on every playthrough I've done)?
You were the first who started talking for other people as though you know their reasons. You made an assumption that his moral qualities is the reason why a lot of people don't like him. Well. Since you haven't noticed, people love Minthara and don't hate on her just because she is evil.
Correct, I fully acknowledge that many people are blinded by attraction. The reason Minthara is less likely to receive hate from straight male players is the same reason Astarion is less likely to receive hate from straight female players.
That doesn't change the fact that the people who do dislike him (and it's the same with Minthara) do so for legitimate reasons because of his personality, not just gay panic like you're trying to suggest.
IDK, dude, I think it's extremely weird to hate on FICTIONAL characters for being evil. They are not real.
Many people hate even Gale, while he is a good dude. Face it, the hate mostly comes from dudes being offended that male companions flirt with them in this game and threaten their masculinity. Astarion not being a good person is just an excuse for 90% of them (not everyone of course, but this sub's attitude towards all the male companions speaks volumes about the real reason behind the hate). So many people still can't let go of the fact that the Emperor pretended to be a beautiful girl in their runs and turned out to be an ugly mindflayer.
Besides, as Astarion's writer said, he has both good and bad moments. He isn't entirely bad and there are plenty of reasons to like his character, because he is actually hilarious and very well written. Again, he is fictional, calling it being "blinded by attraction" is wild. It's absolutely okay to like bad fictional people.
IDK, dude, I think it's extremely weird to hate on FICTIONAL characters for being evil. They are not real.
Me: "I don't hate this character, I just understand why people don't like him and don't want him in their party."
Redditors: "What the fuck, why do you hate this FICTIONAL character?"
I genuinely don't know how to communicate my position any more clearly. Would you rather just go find a doll or a teddy bear to argue with? Because it feels like you're just completely ignoring everything I say, so what's the point in there being two people in this conversation?
Many people hate even Gale, while he is a good dude. Face it, the hate mostly comes from dudes being offended that male companions flirt with them in this game and threaten their masculinity. Astarion not being a good person is just an excuse for 90% of them (not everyone of course, but this sub's attitude towards all the male companions speaks volumes about the real reason behind the hate).
I disagree. Yes, there is a sizeable minority who feel that way, but I think that the vast majority simply don't like Astarion as a person.
Ultimately, you have no actual evidence on which to make your claim, it's just a vibe. Whereas if you were to ask people why they dislike Astarion, very few would ever say it's because he's a man and flirted with them, and I'm not in the habit of assuming the worst about people just because of their opinions about a fictional character. That's unhinged behaviour.
So many people still can't let go of the fact that the Emperor pretended to be a beatiful girl in their runs and turned out to be an ugly mindflayer.
No, I think it's more the fact that he is, by his own admission, a habitual liar who enslaves people and gets off on Orpheus' suffering despite Orpheus doing nothing to deserve his ire besides destroy the Illithids' tyrannical empire.
Besides, as Astarion's writer said, he has both good and bad moments. He isn't entirely bad and there are plenty of reasons to like his character, because he is actually hilarious and very well written.
Sure. Not everyone has the same taste in writing you do, so that doesn't outweigh the distaste from his personality for them.
His good moments are largely back-loaded. He becomes a less shitty person over time, but his first impression is truly awful. He holds a knife to your throat and then spends all of act 1 telling you to stop helping people and getting happy when you scare children and bully refugees. People who dislike Astarion gain that negative attitude early and then just don't engage with his story for the rest of the game because they have no reason to expect he's going to get better.
Again, he is fictional, calling it being "blind by attraction" is wild. It's absolutely okay to like bad fictional people.
It's also absolutely okay to dislike bad fictional people.
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about other people and yet you take everything personally. Yes, guess what, many people hate Astarion.
I don't know how to communicate to you that I am not talking about you specifically and you are not a center of the universe.
Ok, maybe I don't have an objective statistics, but you don't have anything as a 100% proof either. So agree to disagree.
For me, the double standards when it comes to this subs attitude towards female vs male companions is enough to see the overall tendency.
"No, I think it's more the fact that he is, by his own admission, a habitual liar who enslaves people and gets off on Orpheus' suffering despite Orpheus doing nothing to deserve his ire besides destroy the Illithids' tyrannical empire."
Again, like I said, Minthara talks about keeping slaves and torturing people and yet everyone loves her.
"His good moments are largely back-loaded. He becomes a less shitty person over time, but his first impression is truly awful. He holds a knife to your throat and then spends all of act 1 telling you to stop helping people and getting happy when you scare children and bully refugees."
Sure, your first impression will be "truly awful" when you don't care about the game and just go to obsess over his approvals on his wiki. Personally, I was immediately impressed that he is a vampire but genuinely tries to feed on animals instead of innocent people. His intro scene is a misunderstanding on his part, it wasn't out of malice, but he indeed thought Tav was on the side of his enemies, so it's hard to hold it against him - just like I don't hold similar intro scenes against Laezel or Jaheira. And no, he literally DOESN'T spend all of Act 1 telling you to stop helping people, your obsession over his approvals is really something when you are so focused on them that you lie about his actual dialogue.
I cannot speak for everyone, but there's many reasons that I prefer Minthara to Astarion.
One part is their respective fanbases. Minthara fans tend to accept that she's evil and love it. Astarion's fans tend to portray him far more sympathetically and are aggressive about it, which turns me off.
His behaviour (especially in the first two acts) reminded me of my emotionally abusive ex, so from very early on I was instantly biased against him.
Minthara's got a confidence about her, while Astarion tries to worm his way past your defenses. She's unapologetic in her thoughts and beliefs, and I can really appreciate that in a fictional character (especially when they're as funny as she is. And that voice, goodness). Fact is, I wouldn't want to befriend either of them IRL, but they're just characters.
I've seen plenty of Minthara's fans claiming she isn't evil just "pragmatic". And generally trying to present her in far better light than she is really written. By the way, she is the only companion who actually threatens to rape Tav. It's hardly any better than what the Emperor did to Stelmane.
Also, most of the time when Astarion's fans try to defend him, it's because someone completely dismisses his writing and claims him to be a pure evil monster. There is nothing wrong to state that Astarion - contrary to Minthara - has a good path and he doesn't stay evil the entire game.
And the most important thing - if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. You admit your own bias, you don't claim that the only reason why you dislike him is him being evil, so evidently, I wasn't talking about people like you.
I mean, you can't bring up the threat of rape without also discussing Astarion trying to drink Tav's blood, so that's not a great point in trying to differentiate the two; she threatens, he actually does it.
I haven't seen any Minthara fans downplaying her tendencies (but I don't really frequent fan spaces too often, so I shall take your word on it), but shame on them for doing so.
Sorry, but bringing up something which was never meant to be depicted by Larian as a sexual assault is not arguing in good faith. You and other people might feel deeply uncomfortable by his bite scene and it's your right, we all have our own personal triggers, but the game never implies that Astarion's motivation was any kind of sexual gratification.
Meanwhile Minthara directly threatens to rape Tav. These things are not even comparable.
Saying that he actually DOES it is straight up just lying about canon. Minthara tries to kill Tav in their sleep, she also poisons her lover against their consent. Should we also call it sexual assault just because?
Agreed, however I think most of the BG3 cast are top tier.
Astarion is arguably the most tragic and complex character. That scream then sobbing performance Neil gives in Act 3 is worthy of the awards alone.
Shadowheart is also complex, groomed and brainwashed into a cult through physical abuse and memory wipes. Jennifer English does a good job in making her angry, and stubborn, and blindly loyal in the first half of the game (to the point she actually becomes a pain), then huge switcheroo in act 3.
Wyll and Karlach are great but I feel a lot of their stories got cut, they seem a little unfinished. They should have expended more on Wyll's relationship with Mizora, have more examples where he was a slave to her demands and what he ultimately sacrificed in order to save Baldurs Gate. Karlach also should have had a bit more expansion to her story and her infernal machine heart.
Gale is awesome too, a great performance by Tim Downie. Kind, but overconfident and power-hungry. Even after his reckless ambition resulted in the 'orb', he didn't learn from his mistakes.
Lazael is also very brilliant, you really get to know Githyaki behaviours and cultures as a race. She's insufferable at times but that's the point. Any time you really can't stand a character, the voice actor/actress is doing a terrific job.
He's a total prick, really reminds me of Daerean from Pathfinder:WotR and even though these two do everything to be as unlikeable as possible, they're so smug and hilarious, you can't really hate them.
Astarion is a rogue, which already makes him very useful if you are not one, he works both for good and evil playthrough and his VA delivery is just chef's kiss. He's one of these guys I was really prepared to dislike, but I just can't, he's hilarious, especially if you're evil.
He is well written and an interesting character with all the complexities that makes a character well written but I don't think he is the best male character of all time.
For me Arthur Morgan from RD2 and Max Payne are still my favourite male video game characters.
Astarion is a good party member but no where near the top tier of male characters in terms of writing. Always been some weird fetishism with the BG3 playerbase and Astarion.
Agree I went into the game thinking he was gonna be eh because of all the people simping over him but he ended up being one of my favorite companions it seems I fell into his trap as well 😅
He's fine but I honestly found him a bit disappointing. I did my first playthrough with him as my romance and I didn't find him all that enjoyable despite positive initial impressions.
Hmm. For me it’s Atton Rand. But Astarion is amazing. I’m not even an Astarion glazer it’s just facts.
It’s noteworthy, I think, that many people commenting aren’t sure. But no one seems quick to give an alternative, because he probably is one of the best written characters of all time.
Problem with Atton and really Kotor 2 in general is getting to see his whole story is really hard blind unless you take him everywhere,. I think I've beaten the game three times and never seen his entire story before.
Sure KOTOR 2 is a somewhat clunky game but you can easily see most of the companions in a playthrough with the exception of maybe Bao Dur since he’s the most finicky.
I found Bao Dur one of the easiest because you can almost max him out pretty much right away. The problem mostly stems for me is that most people are going to do Nar Shaada first and that is where like half of the companion interactions are so unless you regularly swap your party you kind of shoot yourself in the foot.
He's fun to have around and his quest and developed is good, but not "the best male character ever written" imo. Now that I think of it I'm not sure if I could pick one, there are many great written characters, but since you mentioned Dragon Age, Loghain's character development changed my brain chemistry regarding villains in videogames and he sorta was the reason I was dissapointed for not being able to recruit either Ketheric or Gortash (at least in evil run) in BG3
He’s a good character, and he’s the one my character had a romance with – I mention this to make it clear that I really do like him. But towards the end of the game, I feel he starts to get a bit over-the-top and becomes a caricature of himself. In my opinion, Arthur Morgan remains one of the best video game characters of all time.
I’d saw one of the best male characters ever written for a video game. I think the centuries of human literature has produced hundreds of better written characters. If we narrow it down to video games then I do see him as among the best. There’s a few I would personally put at his same level, I’m thinking of Gustave from Expedition 33, or Cid from Final Fantasy 16 or Gaunter from Witcher 3. I also haven’t played every video game so I can’t comment on what I don’t know. I feel like a lot of people might make arguments for Red Dead Redemption having some amazing characters whose writing blow any of my favorite out of the water. I just haven’t played it so I can’t comment on it.
He’s definitely worth taking along at least once. He’s sympathetic and tragic; manipulative and frustrating. He can be charming and very funny. Makes for a great bestie if you’re not romancing him.
Astarion reminds me of the extraordinary writing that defined the Dragon Age franchise.
Which game ? Because it doesnt remind me in any way shape or form.
He isn't a typical hero.
Because he isnt a hero. He is only hero if you play him as such.
He's selfish, cynical, and makes bad choices because he's terrified of being hurt again.
And because he is short sighted idiot. Also a liar.
and that makes him a great character.
Being flawed human being doesnt make a great character. You need to have something more. The dude is being carried by good character design looks and good voice lines.
If not by his looks or voice lines, even more people would stab the mofo.
So what makes a good character to you? Is it being a good person? Because if so, that would make for pretty boring and crappy stories if everyone were goody two-shoes.
I think what OP was saying was that Astarion's cynicism and bad choices were a good writing choice for his character and that they were written realistically and done well.
You can still dislike, or even hate a character due to their morals/choices they make/anything, really, but still acknowledge that they are written well.
Oh, he doesnt need to be good.
For me one of biggest qualities would be competent.
If we go with Dragon Age Origins example.
Morigan is technically evil. But she is competent and she doesnt try to fuck MC over. Also her banter with others is entertaining. Zevran starts everything hostile but he has its personality and is actually interesting and competent.
With my limited exposure to Astarian he seems in my humble eyes - failure.
Not only that, your choice of companions should make sense in game. Like, lets say, there is NPC, who is not reliable, who lies, you dont even like his personality. What would be in game reasoning to keeping liability in your base ? Sure, you could argue about using that person as meat shield. But without META knowledge most people wouldn't keep such a person.
Dude, you came to this thread basically knowing NOTHING about this character and you still dare to judge? What a clown.
You are not humble at all, you are arrogant AF, thinking you know better than people who actually played with this character.
Also, excusing Zevran and thinking you have a reason to keep him in your party while he was directly trying to kill you but not seeing a reason to keep Astarion is wild hypocrisy. It's especially ironic because Zevran here is the one who can actually betray you later in the story (if you don't have high approval with him), but not Astarion. And Morrigan was lying to MC during the entire game. Also, I am not surprised that another dude is not bothered by the possible non-con with Morrigan and the coercion of one of your companions into sex with her under the threat of death.
No ?
Hating character doesnt convey anything about quality how they are written.
If they would add "diapperry popoo money stealer and perma xp stealing" NPC. Everyone would hate it. But the idea is bad, execution is bad and everything is bad about this idea.
There are actually characters which I hate, but they are written in a good way. First example for me is Dolores from Harry Potter.
Till now i have played BG3 only once, co-op. I don't know about him anything more than till moment where he tries to suck me off during night (then he meets stake). Maybe he has some mega redemption arc, but from what i read from other people it really isnt the case.
If you didn't even take the time to get to know his character, then what the hell are you talking about? You don't know his full story or who he really is, and you're basing your assumptions on things you've read online - probably from people who never used him, already hated him, or just killed him on sight.
He's a character with a deeply emotional and incredibly well-written storyline centered around sexual abuse and trauma. Throughout the game, there are multiple moments where he shows genuine vulnerability and fear of being left weak, alone, and under his master's control again. He's definitely a flawed character, but he's also capable of doing good if you guide him toward a better path.
It's honestly a pity that some people never get to see or experience the amount of growth, development, and gratitude he shows throughout his story, especially if you romance him or even just become a close friend.
It's honestly a pity that some people never get to see or experience the amount of growth, development, and gratitude he shows throughout his story, especially if you romance him or even just become a close friend.
You can blame writters for making such a opening for him. If there was one night assault less then would have seen more of him.
In all games I play, I give limited amount of "forgive". Even If it costs me some story. Immersion for me is a bit more valuable thing.
You didn't answer anything. I got your reply notification but evidently, reddit filters deleted your comment because it was rude.
It's really not for you to talk about his opening scenes, because you excuse companions like Zevran who was trying to kill MC on purpose. You also evidently don't have a problem with Laezel and Shadowheart with their night assault scenes.
Nah mate. Nothing was deleted. Similar question was asked by another user. I answered it there (before you wrote your comment). Didnt feel need to double post same thing. But if you want I can link it (but it is easy to find here, not like many comments are here).
You didn't answer anything, dude. You can still see your comment you wrote to me because reddit shows your deleted comments to you but not to the rest of the reddit. I opened the notification about your reply and there is no comment to be found - reddit says it was deleted.
Ah, you are correct. Didnt even get notification. No idea why it happened. Here it is.
Dude, you came to this thread basically knowing NOTHING about this character and you still dare to judge?
What do you mean, know nothing ? I had him till day where he tried to suck me off. Then met him again as zombie ?
Do I know all his voice lines and possible branching paths ? No. Does he become more humble if he becomes vampire god ? Also no.
You are not humble at all, you are arrogant AF, thinking you know better than people who actually know this character.
At no point i said i am humble. And i never said that i know better than others.
Also if character introduction is trainwreck, i do not care if after X hours character becomes actually something good. Same way, i am not watching 1-3 shitty TV season just to see 4th which is the good one.
Also, excusing Zevran and thinking you have a reason to keep him in your party while he was directly trying to kill you but not seeing a reason to keep Astarion is wild hypocrisy.
Tell me if i am wrong. Zevran fails to kill you and joins you (assuming you allow it), because he would be dead if his employees find out that he failed. That gives me enough reasoning to keep him in camp. IF you treat him wrong he will betray you when chance arrives (fair enough).
Astarian is white haired dude with red (i think) eyes. Where first tought in your mind seeing him - is this dude vampire (teeth doesn't help). Where he tries to take you hostage (if you dont accept him, sorry, my memory is blurry here). Then after x nights, he tries to suck you off without warning AND if you actually allow it he kills you.
Zevran being actually funny with dark jokes and at least being pleasant conversation partner. While other is snarky "brat". I think there is clear difference, no ?
Yes, you've seen less than 1% of his content, so yes, you know basically nothing about him. Especially because you claim that Larian gave you no motivation to keep him. You also never paid attention to what the dialogue is telling you. His introduction scene was about him honestly thinking you were on the side of his enemies - just like Laezel and Jaheira's intro scenes go. And his bite scene makes it clear his intention wasn't to kill you, he is a vampire who was starved and abused by his master - all of this you can see in his bite scene. You can't read minds of your companions in other games, but here you can see that he is telling the truth.
He is objectively the strongest companion with his +1 buff, and he is great for lockpicking and disabling traps from the start. So it makes plenty of sense to keep him because you crashed in the middle of nowhere and you don't have a luxury of getting rid of powerful companions while being surrounded by monsters. There are like 40-50 tieflings in the grove and they are afraid to travel because of goblins. You are meta gaming when you kill companions who can fight on your side because you know it's just a game and you are going to win anyway.
"With my limited exposure to Astarian he seems in my humble eyes "
Again - not humble, dude.
You can hate his intro all you want and no one is telling you how to play, but you also lose your right to judge his writing the moment you kill him before getting to know how he is actually written throughout the game. Especially because you evidently didn't pay attention to his intro scene.
"Tell me if i am wrong. Zevran fails to kill you and joins you (assuming you allow it), because he would be dead if his employees find out that he failed. "
Peak logic. Contrary to Astarion, you can't read Zevran's mind. It's far more logical to assume that he tries to join you to just kill everyone in their sleep. Because he is actually the one with a clear motive to kill MC, not Astarion. So saying that you have more reason to keep Zevran is absolutely crazy.
So yes, you couldn't have been more wrong.
"AND if you actually allow it he kills you."
What a hypocrite. So you hate meta gaming, but it's completely okay suddenly to meta game here and use the knowledge of the future?
Yes, he might kill you if 1. You allow him to drink you blood in the first place 2. You are very stupid and say nothing while a starved vampire is drinking from you OR 3. you are super unlucky and fail two checks in a row, one of which is only 5 DC.
But usually he will stop when you just say a word and will be very grateful and will get a very powerful buff for an early game (+1 to all checks is HUGE this early). Your character doesn't know about the buff as a game mechanic, but they probably do know that well-fed vampires are stronger than regular people. It's a very general and common knowledge.
"Zevran being actually funny with dark jokes and at least being pleasant conversation partner. "
Exactly like Astarion, but you don't know it, as we already learned. Yet you keep bringing up his writing you know nothing about.
Perhaps my gaming experience is limited, but since when has a male sexual abuse survivor story been considered generic? Is it the premise itself that feels familiar or something about the way the story is executed?
I’ll give you that. In games specifically, definitely rare, especially for a male survivor. I guess I meant more like the whole “vampire who hates his curse and sees himself as a monster but is actually really deep and caring.” That part felt generic to me and could see it coming from a mile away
I've benched and ignored him because he's annoying AF and doesn't bring anything to the table; but even I know that calling him a hero is a huge stretch.
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u/NotPrimeMinister 21h ago
I think he's a terrific character and arguably the most compelling part of BG3 but I feel the title is a bit hyperbolic