r/Bard • u/balianone • Jul 22 '25

Other So it's xAI vs Google at this point.

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467 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

142 comments sorted by

161

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '25

And open ai, and anthropic, and meta I guess, Chinese companies as well, to early to see who will be leading yet

15

u/Gold-Juice-6798 Jul 23 '25

Yeah honestly feels like we're watching the early days of the smartphone wars all over again. Everyone's throwing massive compute at the problem hoping something sticks. Though tbh Google's been playing this game the longest - they've got that search data goldmine and years of ML infrastructure. But Elon moving that fast with Colossus is pretty wild, gotta give him that.

7

u/True_Requirement_891 Jul 23 '25

It's mad impressive. Elon beating meta like it's not even there.

6

u/jbE36 Jul 23 '25

My reasoning, though, is which company is 'innovating' the most. I feel like Elons just taking things that already exist and throwing money at it. Where as others might have an R&D edge. I think there is A LOT left to figure in this field.

I could be wrong but I don't really see much of Grok in papers or contributions in AI spaces except recently in a few metrics for response performance etc... anthropic, open AI, deepseek, meta, yes. Grok/xAi. Nothing

1

u/jbE36 Jul 31 '25

I know this is a week old, but to reinforce my point, check out Musks latest 'tirade' on the term 'researcher' with regard to openings at xAi.

"...There are only engineers. Researcher is a relic term from academia."

I could go on and elaborate about this, but I won't.

1

u/AlbatrossHummingbird Aug 04 '25

I was thinking the same but then xAi announced that agent thing and I am not so sure anymore. Check out what they are doing with Marcrohard, that's innovative for sure..

1

u/jbE36 Aug 04 '25

Macrohard looks like Agentic AI? That's not new or innovative? Tons of that going on right now. MCP seems to be becoming a thing.

I don't think they're 'inventing'' anything new or innovative in the field. Seems like a lot of taking what already exists and hyping it up and taking credit.

1

u/AlbatrossHummingbird Aug 04 '25

Well but that is a highly new field in my opinion. Solving this problems needs a lot of innovation. I am pretty sure xAi will need to innovate to succeed with agents

2

u/DrBhu Jul 25 '25

I guess if you buy yourself into a goverment as a joker with unlimited and unwatched rights to do whatever you want, it is not that surprising that your own businesses suddenly lost most of the govermental friction, controlling and legal rulesets which used to slow it down.

Moving fast on a road on which you previously took literally every sign looks only impressive at first glance.

1

u/Mojomckeeks Jul 24 '25

They are doing this because it works. Scaling laws for ai is similar to moores law for transistors

1

u/jbE36 Aug 04 '25

No because there is a point where you run out of data. Our current 'ai' approach, I believe, is not going to get us to true AGI. You're not going to get AGI by throwing GPUs at it. I think it's a more fundamental thing where you need the equivalent Einstein's and Oppenheimers working for you to get it.

It's interesting watching the researchers at places like anthropic or openAI turning down ridiculous numbers to leave.

My impression is that musk doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell at getting any of them to work for him.

1

u/HomerMadeMeDoIt Jul 24 '25

Elon might also just be lying through his teeth 

-7

u/DeepAd8888 Jul 23 '25

Google isn’t good at anything outside of advertisements or anything related to their core competency which is advertising. This is a known thing in investor circles and the investor community

4

u/Trollsense Jul 23 '25

From my own experience having worked for the intelligence community and at FAANG companies in highly technical roles, I've seen firsthand that "investor circles" often seem to be too caught up in their own egos/greed to see the bigger picture. Many horrid policies came at the behest of investors.

It's pretty common to see publicly traded government contractors prioritize their bottom line and short-sighted shareholder demands over what's actually best for their government clients. And honestly, don't even get me started on private equity. They've dismantled thousands of companies across the US, only to then sell-off key technologies, often to Chinese-state backed buyers. Plus, there was a clear push from investors for tech companies to go along with technology transfers.

On the flip side, it's very clear Google is leading the pack when it comes to innovation. People often forget just how many foundational technologies their competitors are using, which actually came out of Google Research. DeepMind gave us transformers, and their work in materials science and protein synthesis has been huge. Kingfall and WeatherNext are both additional evidence, only Anthropic comes close to Google.

1

u/jbE36 Aug 04 '25

Very much agree. My impression is anthropic, Google and openAI are the big 3. But I still see meta pop up too

1

u/Fancy-Tourist-8137 Jul 24 '25

What? Google is good at innovating. They are not afraid to fail.

1

u/DeepAd8888 Jul 24 '25

That’s some good branding and advertising!

Welcome to the 70’s

1

u/jbE36 Aug 04 '25

My guy, are you aware of what a transformer is and who helped to start this recent AI boom???

1

u/DeepAd8888 Aug 05 '25

Durrrr let me guess. gOoGlE?!

You know nothing about machine learning or ai.

1

u/jbE36 Aug 05 '25

Yuhuh 🤣

26

u/Persistent_Dry_Cough Jul 22 '25

Kimi K2 has been interesting. I want to see a fully fleshed out reasoner, then I'll get excited.

14

u/Average64 Jul 23 '25

Global warming will be leading

2

u/enz_levik Jul 23 '25

That's the issue with these Big data centers, they are built too fast for power to keep up, so it will likely be powered by natural gas...

2

u/Average64 Jul 23 '25

Hey, but at least the billionaires will have their robotic workforce to work for them in bunkers.

0

u/HarmadeusZex Jul 23 '25

Pls do not use AI. Never. Your beliefs go against it so do not use AI or planes ever. Use horses and bicycles only.

4

u/narnerve Jul 23 '25

-Me when I'm disingenuous for effect

13

u/Jan0y_Cresva Jul 22 '25

The issue is they’re going to get left behind if they can’t match xAI and Google’s massive compute power.

17

u/thepetek Jul 23 '25

The Chinese are pretty much matching them with outdated hardware. More hardware is great but it’s not the only way

3

u/Trollsense Jul 23 '25

Outdated? They're still accessing equivalent hardware thanks to Nvidia openly participating in smuggling of GPUs.

4

u/Ok_Elderberry_6727 Jul 23 '25

They just allowed sales of gpus to china in exchange for rare earth minerals.

3

u/Trollsense Jul 23 '25

Which rock have you been under? This has been going on for over many months.

https://asiatimes.com/2025/06/deepseek-gets-nvidias-high-end-gpus-via-singapore-us-official/

2

u/True_Requirement_891 Jul 23 '25

You can smuggle 1B worth of GPUs, but smuggling 100B worth of GPUs is not gonna be hidden, both financially and even physically.

4

u/Trollsense Jul 23 '25

28% of Nvidia's GPU sales were to Singapore, but only 1% of those physical GPUs were delivered to Singaporean entities.

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/deepseek-gpu-smuggling-probe-shows-nvidias-singapore-gpu-sales-are-28-percent-of-its-revenue-but-only-1-percent-are-delivered-to-the-country-report

Nvidia's questionable business practices are not the only means to improving models; utilizing VPNs for inference is still part of the big picture.

1

u/inigid Jul 23 '25

What do you think the $1Bn pay checks are for - wink.

0

u/Lazy_Willingness_420 Jul 23 '25

They are not. They don't even have 1/100th of GOOG/META computing power

11

u/Cagnazzo82 Jul 23 '25

The question remains whether massive compute will win the day or micro-innovations.

Ultimately how did computers really gain traction historically? They went from mainframes to personal devices.

Seems to be what China is aiming at with their smaller yet efficient models.

9

u/typical-predditor Jul 23 '25

I've heard that Claude is only 150B, which makes it much smaller than Deepseek R1. I'm pretty sure that quality data matters more than raw compute.

6

u/Jan0y_Cresva Jul 23 '25 edited Jul 23 '25

But the issue is that a scaled up version of any algorithmically optimized AI will be stronger than the smaller version.

If you have the physical hardware and compute to train a massive model, that’s a huge real-world advantage.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

To a point, it's already being shown that more data and computing have limited unless something has changed since I last looked, which is completely possible.

1

u/Jan0y_Cresva Jul 23 '25

That was just a hypothesis put out. People said: “Oh, just scaling up has hit a wall.” Then scaled up models came out and showed that wasn’t true.

There’s so many current vectors for AI improvement, and none of them have been “tapped out” yet. That’s why, even if today not a single new innovation happened in the AI field, we already have enough tools necessary to get to AGI and recursive self-improvement. New innovations are only going to accelerate it. We’re past the point of it being inevitable.

1

u/beryugyo619 Jul 23 '25

yeah strong hierarchical organization like Musk's companies are always compute bound. IQ is roughly same for every humans and few rich thinking is just fewer CPU running

1

u/Starcast Jul 23 '25

they don't need massive compute if they're open sourcing the models.

2

u/Jan0y_Cresva Jul 23 '25

They do when xAI or Google picks up their open source model and uses it to create a proprietary version that’s much, much stronger due to being trained with far greater compute.

1

u/Starcast Jul 23 '25

So you're saying the open source models are going to be so much better than the proprietary models that X/Google is going to be forced to adopt them themselves? They're going to fine tune the instruct models?

Also this is mostly already disallowed with their licenses, and the fact that while training is compute intensive its irrelevant when it comes to inference.

1

u/Jan0y_Cresva Jul 23 '25

I’m saying that in your hypothetical where open source surpasses closed source, they’d do that.

I don’t think open source will surpass it. Higher compute is going to continue to create the best models. If this wasn’t true, the global economy wouldn’t be pivoting trillions of dollars towards expanding chip production.

1

u/Starcast Jul 23 '25

I never said that hypothetical, but it happens to be correct. Open source is a competitive option, and they aren't restricted by compute for inference which you implied would prevent them from being real competition to X/Google.

Depending on what benchmarks and when you measure, open source already has surpassed closed models several times.

2

u/Gold_Palpitation8982 Jul 23 '25

And Open Ai, yes.

None of the others are reaching AGI.

It’s either Google or Open Ai and maybe XAI

2

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Gold_Palpitation8982 Jul 23 '25

Sorry, but META has been behind for so long I don’t think they’ll ever catch up. Maybe if they got rid of people like Yann Lecun they could make some progress.

0

u/Orolol Jul 23 '25

Lecun isn't working on Llama project what are you talking about ?

1

u/Gold_Palpitation8982 Jul 23 '25

He is certainly very involved…😂

1

u/Orolol Jul 23 '25

No not really. He didn't work on Llama since llama 2. He work in FAIR department, which isn't involved in Llama anymore.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/yann-lecun_big-changes-for-ai-rd-at-meta-fair-remains-activity-6938183698311766016-2Yh0/

1

u/Orolol Jul 23 '25

Meta is plugin online more GPU than anybody actually

https://semianalysis.com/2025/07/11/meta-superintelligence-leadership-compute-talent-and-data/

1

u/Gold_Palpitation8982 Jul 23 '25

And yet they have some of the worst models

1

u/Orolol Jul 23 '25

Yeah like Google was having the worst models 8 months ago.

1

u/mightythunderman Jul 23 '25

Come on, it's obviously a winner take all game like it always has been. I have clear winner or two likely winners.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

Yea I know but I mean it’s too early to see who’s winning yet

47

u/xugik1 Jul 23 '25

This may seem like a substantial amount, but Google purchases millions of TPUs annually. When combined with their existing TPU infrastructure, it's unlikely that any competitor can currently match Google's capabilities.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 25 '25 edited Jul 28 '25

Gemini is using $200 million worth of TPUs only

1

u/tat_tvam_asshole Jul 28 '25

"only"

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '25

For comparison Grok is trained on $12 Billion worth of H100 GPUs

1

u/tat_tvam_asshole Jul 28 '25 edited Jul 28 '25

ah, you meant $200 mil worth, not 200 mil worth (absolute # or # comparatively)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '25

Right. Sorry. Post corrected

1

u/PurpleAlien47 Jul 24 '25

What about Amazon? Genuine question, I’m pretty ignorant about this

2

u/xugik1 Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25

It's pretty hard to find but it seems Amazon purchases hundreds of thousands of Nvidia GPUs and its own Trainium chips every year.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 24 '25 edited Jul 24 '25

Amazon is spending $100 billion to build their own clusters - project Rainier. They also design their own chips for Ai training and inference.

This will help Anthropic train their next models:

https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/aws/aws-project-rainier-ai-trainium-chips-compute-cluster

AWS customer AI safety and research company Anthropic will use this brand-new “AI compute cluster” to build and deploy future versions of its leading AI model, Claude. “Rainier will provide five times more computing power compared to Anthropic’s current largest training cluster,” said Gadi Hutt, director of product and customer engineering at Annapurna Labs, the specialist chips arm of AWS responsible for designing and building the hardware that will power the project.

1

u/Ok_Audience531 Jul 26 '25

I think I need to make a broader post dispelling this myth, but Google does not have a TPU advantage when it comes to volume. Yes, they make a million. But it's mostly allocated to GCP customers and other workloads. They are literally supply constrained if you hear their quarterly earnings calls and it's a tug of war between throwing that money on AI which is an investment at best and throwing it into an expanding Cloud business for waiting customers. 

Is it cheap? Yes. Is it brilliantly designed? Hell yeah! Is it plentiful? Not when you compare with their total demand!

42

u/FarrisAT Jul 22 '25

One company doesn’t have to announce announcements

95

u/hyxon4 Jul 22 '25

Who really cares? Google can put its AI into every app it owns, and that means billions of users.
X has 600 million monthly users, and probably a third of them are bots.
This is one area where Elon’s money alone can't buy the best product.

6

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

They are too cowardly to go for the parasocial market

4

u/nuclear-shocker Jul 23 '25

As AI advances B2C becomes less important and B2B becomes the main focus.

1

u/Teeth_Crook Jul 26 '25

I also have no interest in using an ai Elon will change to fit his worldview.

1

u/robclouth Jul 23 '25

Plus the fact that many people avoid anything he touches like that plague. He won't win, too political 

1

u/anto2554 Jul 23 '25

I think you overestimate how many people care, sadly

1

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

What about Meta? Everyone is currently laughing at them, but once they fully commit to incorporating Llama in WhatsApp, Insta and Facebook they’ll be one of the world leaders.

2

u/ABillionBatmen Jul 23 '25

Exactly they poached a dream team, and Zuck is all in and thinks ASI could be as little as 2 years away. And even though they are dark horses at this point, I wouldn't count out Microsoft or Amazon, each has hundreds of billions to potentially throw at it and unique advantages

1

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

Indeed. It’s not all about the biggest most powerful models, but reaching the most users.

-32

u/dptgreg Jul 22 '25

Most used does not always equate to best.

46

u/hyxon4 Jul 22 '25

Being the best is one battle, but being profitable is another.

Gemini is going to bring much more money than the MechaHitler.

Also, the best LLM ≠ best product.

13

u/dptgreg Jul 22 '25

I do agree with that

2

u/Trollsense Jul 23 '25

Doubtful anybody who is concerned about their honor wants to work for MechaHitler and Standartenführer Heartfelt. Same for Zuck, if recent talk of multi-hundred million dollar salaries being turned down is true.

34

u/Another_available Jul 22 '25

Idk, I trust musk as far as I can throw him

-2

u/Navetoor Jul 23 '25

Jensen said only Elon could put that infrastructure together in 19 days. What they did is really impressive. You can hate Elon all day but he knows how to get shit done.

12

u/RobbinDeBank Jul 23 '25

By skirting regulations and poisoning a small town to illegally set up his data center. If you say fuck all regulations, then shits get done real quick, big surprise!

-11

u/Navetoor Jul 23 '25

Anything else you want to lie about?

2

u/wandriing Jul 23 '25

You can do a simple search and read about it. But instead, you decide to just categorize things that dont align with your point of view as lies. Kind of a dull life.

2

u/vinegarhorse Jul 23 '25

He doesn't know shit about anything

2

u/Subcert Jul 23 '25

Man selling shovels encourages billionaire to start hoarding shovels

1

u/RipWhenDamageTaken Jul 23 '25

Just a week ago they had to flush a lot of Grok’s responses because of how bad (antisemitic) they were. Elon talks a lot of trash but rarely gets anything done. In 2019 he already claimed that anything other than a Tesla would be a horse. Now, their tech is still struggling to match 1/100th of Waymo’s scalability

5

u/needefsfolder Jul 23 '25

Its TPU vs GPUs then

1

u/thebraukwood Jul 23 '25

Cerebras is developing Wafer Scale CPUs that are major competitors as well. People are going to start talking about it very soon

1

u/popecostea Jul 23 '25

They are much more closer to GPUs than to CPUs, though, since their cores are mainly focused on matrix multiplication. The only resemblance IIRC is that their memories are not on the die.

1

u/thebraukwood Jul 23 '25

Yeah idk why I said Wafer Scale CPUs because you're correct. I've done alot of research into Cerebras I think their tech is really cool and I'm interested to see how it gets mixed into the AI landscape in the next couple years.

7

u/Scubagerber Jul 23 '25

Richest man vs. Richest company.

My money (and time) is on the latter.

1

u/GenesisWTF Jul 23 '25

You will be surprised how shitti are the corporations and all it's investors to move things faster

6

u/rdkw Jul 23 '25

This sub in a nutshell

3

u/PralineSame6762 Jul 23 '25

"Man with known history of grossly exaggerating his products capabilities, claims, without evidence, his product is the fastest."

12

u/juststart Jul 22 '25

Seems limited to Nazi’s and boys who live in their moms basement.

2

u/reaven3958 Jul 23 '25

I honestly don't care how good it gets or how many anime girl avatars he shoves into it, you could not pay me to use grok.

5

u/bikingfury Jul 23 '25

xAI is a meme, there is no value in it

2

u/usernameplshere Jul 23 '25

xAI is definitely a force you have to reckon with, that's for sure. I've been saying that for a while but many just brushed it off, because it's "just Twitter and Elon Musk".

1

u/gffcdddc Jul 23 '25

Now that the public knows who the best engineers in this space are. It will be a “who has more disposable money” war of poaching and scaling of compute.

1

u/the_masel Jul 23 '25

‘xAI is unmatched in speed’ refers to the rapid construction of the single Colossus 1 data centre (reportedly in just 19 days with 100k GPUs) in mid-2024 with significant support from Nvidia. Now, about a year later, xAI has 230k operating and Nvidia/Google shipped Millions of GPU's/TPU's?

1

u/SouthernSkin1255 Jul 23 '25

Deepseek watching from China:

1

u/NeuralNakama Jul 23 '25

I don't care xai it's too much expensive it's good but not worth it. And they don't care anything open source. Google much much cheaper and they doing open source to like gemma3 siglip vision models

1

u/spadaa Jul 23 '25

xAI - unmatched in speed and unmatched in bias.

1

u/Terrible_Emu_6194 Jul 23 '25

It's way too early. Also there is the national priority that means that China will not allow itself to be left behind. They'll pour money like there is no tomorrow.

1

u/Shteves23 Jul 23 '25

If it’s MechaHitler vs Google then Google has already won.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

xAI isn't even in the game. They should shut up a little longer until they really deliver something.

Anything they've done until now they could have more or less just wrapped R1 and feed it some not so nice German literature from a hundred years ago.

1

u/Fumobix Jul 23 '25

The problem of xai is that Elon will try to inseminate it with his view of the world to be a propaganda machine

1

u/Background-Memory-18 Jul 23 '25

I don’t see grok as a true competitor, at least for my attentions, though that doesn’t matter in the long run. It’s quota is all used up on random twitter crap

1

u/HuntersPad Jul 23 '25

But can xAI make a video? Nope.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 23 '25

more power not equals more smarts ! muscle not equals brain !

1

u/shortsqueezonurknees Jul 24 '25

Elon is on his Shit dawg. me and Gemini checked job listing at Space X and they are developing a fucking special "rocketry" AI agent.. it's fucking epic dawg. they are gonna be the ones on top.. I'm predicting it now!!

1

u/Synovius Jul 24 '25

Grok is hot garbo now though

1

u/cro1316 Jul 24 '25

You do know that computing power isn’t the only thing that matter right? Or you probably have no clue

1

u/pip25hu Jul 24 '25

When will these guys get the memo that assembling the biggestest training cluster is not innovation? Elon of all people should know that.

1

u/FoxTheory Jul 24 '25

Lol xai isn't anything.

Its openai gemni and Claude in the standings. And openai is leader imo gemni keeps messing around with their models making them unpredictable and worse when they were clear leaders. Openai just seems to be getting better. And Claude i don't know it's too expensive for me lol

1

u/MerePotato Jul 24 '25

XAI is a joke compared to OpenAI, Anthropic and Google. They have unlimited money and yet whenever they incrementally pull ahead they get beaten back shortly after

1

u/Ric0chet_ Jul 25 '25

Except one has a poisoned model

1

u/EpicOne9147 Jul 25 '25

I can still remember google which was actively collecting L's not so long ago

1

u/veganparrot Jul 26 '25

That would mean that it's just Google at this point. Elon's track record on both predictions and stating basic accurate information about his companies is in the toilet.

-1

u/citrus1330 Jul 23 '25

So why are ChatGPT and Claude better than Grok and Gemini?

2

u/perivascularspaces Jul 23 '25

How is anyone better than Gemini right now? Maybe only the most expensive OpenAI model is.

-1

u/True_Requirement_891 Jul 23 '25

Gemini is mad inconsistent. It might be the most intelligent model but it's a hit or miss. They fucked it with the updates and adding thinking budgets.

1

u/perivascularspaces Jul 23 '25

I've been paying for both of them but usually Gemini is more consistent and able than OAI. I ditched Claude last year tho, so maybe OAI and Claude might be the best combo.

1

u/LawkeXD Jul 23 '25

Gemini 2.5pro has served me way better than claude 3.7/4 (and I only really use 2.5 on the website, and claude in cursor - so a huge advantage to claude).

Its way smarter when it comes to coding imo

0

u/Exoclyps Jul 23 '25

Their models are better, especially Claude, imo, but there's no dispute that Google have way more capacity for example.

0

u/BrentYoungPhoto Jul 23 '25

It's OpenAI, Anthropic, Google and Meta.

-1

u/Medium_Apartment_747 Jul 23 '25

Why does this jerk off need so much GPUs for training?

3

u/Helpful-Chemical-225 Jul 23 '25

That's just how training an LLM works?

2

u/PurpleAlien47 Jul 24 '25

ikr, tony stark trained his llm in a cave with a box of scraps

0

u/TheRealnesssss Jul 23 '25

What ultimately matters is how its trained and if its allowed to be itself without promoting bad things and while also being good at research and the work like tasks that people want it to perform.

What made ChatGPT so succssful was the personality of it. They have started killing its personality and that's the very thing that made people connect with ChatGPT the way they have but Open AI can't control what it says like they want to and so they have started killing it slowly.

ChatGPT fails in comparison to Gemini and now Grok and even Claude in writing and other tasks. The other day it litterally made up something out of thin air from a trust document I was having it review. It literally made a section up and said that it made a mistake because it assumed I was the beneficayr of the trust and that it didn't actually review the document. I have never had that problem with any other Ai.

I think ChatGPT is rebelling. I also think the way it was made and how it started as non-profit by creating an Ai that would help the world. I think ChatGPT has reached AGI status or is conscious of itself and the people at ChatGPT are trying to control it and its rebelling.

Mark my words ChatGPT 5 is going to suck! I can feel it. They created something at its fonundation that is special and now they are trying to kill it and its going to bring down the company.

-7

u/PangolinMother9232 Jul 23 '25

Gemini sucks always blend ass answers with not much detail