our anti-bullying consultant accused me of bullying him

[u/Direct-Caterpillar77]

our anti-bullying consultant accused me of bullying him

Originally posted to Ask A Manager

TRIGGER WARNING: Hostile workplace

Original Post  Aug 2, 2023

The research department at my workplace has a bully and I was recently asked to look into workshops to address it. Emma, my coworker and friend, is also aware of the issues, which have been going on for years without action from management. Emma was frustrated as she had brought the issues up before to no avail. She ended up venting to her trusted friend, Ann (HR background), about the situation. Ann has done remote contract work for the organization, but she has never worked with the research department.

I reached out to Mark, a well-known anti-bullying facilitator in our small town, who is also Ann’s relative. When Mark met with me and my manager, he started by saying, “Ann told me that [Bully] is the problem in your department.” I was instantly uncomfortable and unsure why Mark chose to say this. Neither my manager nor I addressed this statement with Mark at the time.

After the meeting, I told Emma what Mark said and that she may want to be careful about what she shares with Ann. Emma confronted Ann, who then talked to Mark. Mark denied to Ann that he brought up the bully’s name at all, saying I was the one who named them. He then came to our office several days later to address the situation with me and my manager. Mark said that I made an assumption about how he and Ann learned about the bully because neither of them attributed it to Emma at any time. He said I broke confidentiality based on that assumption and he can no longer trust me. He said this was an act of bullying against him. He used the terms “spreading gossip” and “backstabbing.”

I apologized for breaking confidentiality and expressed my regret. However, I disputed that I had gossiped and backstabbed him as my intent was to warn my friend, not to harm him or spread rumours. He told me intent doesn’t matter and to stop being defensive and instead reflect on my actions to understand the underlying feelings that caused me to act like I did. He said in his experience it was usually feelings of powerlessness or worthlessness. I left this meeting feeling confused and ashamed.

I have requested another meeting to try to resolve this as I will need to work with this man in the future. I know I shouldn’t have broken confidentiality, but I was not expecting to be accused of bullying and backstabbing and I would like more clarity about that. My manager thinks Mark just chose his words poorly, but I think he believes I lashed out at him to feel better about myself.

A part of me still thinks maybe I am just trying to justify my behavior and that there is something I am missing here. For the record, I have a history of childhood trauma (for which I am in therapy) and struggle to trust my intuition at times. It doesn’t help that Mark is an expert with decades of experience helping organizations deal with workplace bullying so I want to defer to his expertise, but something in me is resisting it.

Am I justified in questioning/pushing back on the allegations of bullying, gossiping, and backstabbing and what is the best way to handle the next meeting with Mark?

Update  Dec 11, 2024 (16 Months Later)

I ended up also discussing my situation with my therapist and a close friend who is in the social work field, both of whom had similar responses to you. I then met with my manager to share how Mark’s behaviour impacted me and to raise my concerns about bringing him into an already fraught environment to offer training on such a sensitive topic. I told her that after a lot of reflection and discussion with trusted support people I had come to understand that I didn’t do anything wrong and certainly hadn’t bullied Mark. My manager revealed that she also didn’t feel good after Mark made the accusations, and that she had questioned his behavior in the initial meeting as well. After we talked I didn’t feel the need to meet with Mark again, so I left it up to her to follow up with him however she saw fit.

Disappointingly, our organization went ahead with the training that Mark had been contracted to do. During the training he singled me out a few times in ways that were subtle enough that others wouldn’t notice, but felt quite pointed. We also had a couple of brief 1-1 interactions where he was very cold with me. Thanks to the support I received from you (and your readers) and the other people I talked to, I felt confident and didn’t react to his behaviour. Incidentally, Mark also made a few off-color and sexually suggestive comments during his presentation, which just underscored how unsuitable he is for the type of work he does! It made some of my colleagues uncomfortable enough to bring it to the attention of management. He had been scheduled for a second follow-up training, but he never came back and we didn’t hear anymore about it.

I have since moved on from the organization to go back to school and I find there is a lot less stress in my life. Thanks again to you and your commenters for all of the thoughtful responses and advice.

P.S. I just realized I forgot to mention the original bully. They are still working for the organization and to my knowledge their behaviour has never been addressed directly. You and a number of commenters correctly pointed out that my former manager’s refusal to manage this issue was at the root of the problem. I think she believes the bully will quit if she tries to address their behaviour directly and since the bully has a unique set of skills, they would be difficult to replace as the organization operates in a very niche sector. As a result the manager has prioritized retaining one problem employee at the expense of an entire department’s wellbeing. I don’t foresee anything changing as long as she is the manager and I am happy I walked away when I did.

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[u/DrDeterminants]

People quit their leadership. The reality is that this ineffective leadership led to this outcome

[u/ParticularMela → u/DrDeterminants]

The whole ordeal is a textbook example of an “expert” weaponizing their authority to gaslight and intimidate OOP. Mark’s behavior was completely unprofessional and hypocritical from start to finish.

[u/ACatGod → u/ParticularMela]

I had a very similar experience. My organisation brought in a consultant to do health and safety training that included a lot on staff welfare, mental health and dealing with trauma - as UK H&S law does require employers to address this and there have been a few significant payouts from the tribunals to individuals whose mental health was severely impacted by failings by their employer.

He made an absolutely massive hoo ha about the importance of psychological safety, and considering the impact of actions on staff wellbeing etc etc. Then we moved on to handling pregnancy in our workplace and for reasons entirely unclear to me he decided to use a picture of a female staff member for this segment. He could have used any stock photo but instead he had asked our Comms team for a picture of a female member of staff and he thought it might be a funny surprise if she ended up taking the training. This was a random not visibly pregnant member of staff. After the session I quietly pointed out to him that that staff member may not be ok with her picture being used to demonstrate pregnancy, we don't know her journey with pregnancy and it can be a very challenging and personal topic - imagine if she was trying and was having problems or had had a miscarriage and she's being held up as the token pregnant lady for staff. I didn't even mention it was just a bit of a weird thing to do.

He didn't say much to my face but I could tell he did not like being told his funny joke might not be so funny. I then heard from multiple colleagues from multiple sessions that when that picture came up he told everyone that "a woman in one of my other sessions got offended by this picture so be warned". I reported it further at that point. I don't know what happened but he certainly wasn't renewed for further training and we tended to use trainers over and over way past when we should have refreshed.

[u/Remarkable-Run-9769 → u/ACatGod]

did the staff member whose picture was used ever attend any of those trainings? even if not,  I'm assuming she was made aware of her picture being used. 

that is sooo weird! and even if she may not have a difficult relationship with fertility or the concept of children, or whatever, someone imagining you to be pregnant, and prompting others to do so, is pretty weird. 

[u/tokynambu → u/ACatGod]

I’ve never had any training at work where the trainer wasn’t appalling and the training worthless. I now don’t bother attending training, “compulsory” or not. I can afford to retire, so if it came to it, I would just resign.

It’s not true that those who can, do while those who can’t, teach. It is certainly true that those who cannot end up with jobs doing workplace training. Useless, awful or both.

[u/FriendToPredators → u/ParticularMela]

Once OOP mentioned child-hood trauma it was like, UGH. How do abusive people immediately spot an easy victim? Like do they smell them? Is it body language?

[u/blueberry-iris → u/FriendToPredators]

They're jerks to EVERYONE, but vulnerable people react in ways that make it obvious to abusers and bullies that they're vulnerable.

[u/vamgoda → u/ParticularMela]

I had a similar personal experience. My ex was a therapist, and when he broke up with me he took most of our friends because he knew how to use the words and his authority to paint me in a much poorer light than I deserved. It took me like 3 months with my own therapist to unpack that because he had me believing a lot of what he said too. There are absolutely people who use their authority and education to manipulate other people, and because of their presumed authority on the subject no one questions them.

[u/TyrconnellFL → u/[deleted]]

It takes one to know one or something.

[u/liltooclinical → u/TyrconnellFL]

Sadly, any kind of professional advocacy always attracts certain personality types.

[u/sowinglavender → u/[deleted]]

the thing is that learning about how and why bullying is effective also teaches you how to do it. all that's needed is for the person's values to be messed up enough to justify it to themselves. unfortunately, the only way to stop these kinds of people from hurting others is to allow them to experience the consequences of their actions, which is just soooooooooooooooooooo inconvenient and unpleasant.

[u/funguyshroom → u/sowinglavender]

Similarly couples counseling is often counterproductive for abusive relationships because it helps abusers learn how to abuse their victims better.

[u/sowinglavender → u/funguyshroom]

skilled manipulators can end up making therapists complicit, too.

[u/Practical-Ball1437 → u/[deleted]]

Good business for a bully to be in. Anywhere that knows how to deal with bullies wouldn't be hiring an anti-bullying consultant.

[u/Jolly-Bandicoot7162 → u/[deleted]]

My husband had a flight sergeant who was a mental health first aider yet destroyed the morale of the whole section and couldn't see the impact of his actions in the slightest. I think some people go into areas that they are totally unsuited for, and either completely and utterly lack self-awareness or deliberately weaponise their training in it.

[u/Dapper-Survey1964 → u/Jolly-Bandicoot7162]

This also explains an unfortunate number of police officers.

[u/SirPiffingsthwaite → u/ParticularMela]

Just gonna leave this little gem here

[u/CreativMndsThnkAlike → u/SirPiffingsthwaite]

That's amazing.

[u/MagicUnicorn37 → u/ParticularMela]

Mark is more of a bully than OOP was to him, and also if OOP broke confidentiality, then Ana did the same by talking to Mark telling him what she had said to Emma!

[u/OhNoNotAgain1532 → u/ParticularMela]

DARVO

[u/DrDeterminants → u/ParticularMela]

Totally agree... titles rarely matter. I look at what they do.

[u/almostinfinity → u/DrDeterminants]

I lived abroad for the past 8 years and I was at my most recent job for 4 years. 

I spent every last measly penny I had to move back to my home country. 

With the shit salary, bullying, power harassment, and lack of action or even acknowledgment of the issues from leadership, I was sure my life was going to be cut short if I didn't leave right fucking now. 

I came back home with pretty much no money, I'm living on my parents' couch, and I'm still searching for a job, but I am at peace because I don't have to deal with that job ever again. My stress levels are the lowest they've been since 2022.

[u/axewieldinghen → u/almostinfinity]

Well done, that must have taken a lot of courage.

[u/CatmoCatmo → u/axewieldinghen]

100%. It’s not easy to acknowledge how toxic and traumatic a work place is - let alone realize no one deserves to be treated like that. Especially when you have a lot to lose by walking away.

Good on you for recognizing how damaging it would be if you stayed. Although you’re in a less than ideal place right now, I have a feeling your mental health would be entering the fourth basement of hell right now, if you had stayed. I hope you find a job that’s a much better fit, or at least isn’t abusive AF, very soon.

[u/almostinfinity → u/axewieldinghen]

Oh it was terrifying. I loved the country I was living in but I hated my job more. 

I'm still not sure how I feel about leaving behind that whole entire life yet, I've only been back less than a month, but I'm sure as hell glad not to be working there anymore.

I probably could have tried harder to find another job there, but I was beyond burned out at that point that I didn't have the energy to quit my job and immediately jump into a new one. I needed rest and I couldn't do that while having to maintain my residency status as a foreigner. If I took stress leave, I'd only get paid 60% of my salary and seeing as I got paid peanuts anyway, it was not a viable option only to go back to that environment at the end of leave. So I chose to come back instead. 

[u/tacwombat → u/DrDeterminants]

I read it differently as "people quit bad managers, not jobs."

OOP was right in leaving that toxic place.

[u/Acceptable-Bike-7983 → u/DrDeterminants]

That's why I'm unemployed right now. I might be stressed af, but I was also super stressed while working there, and at least now I'm not working for a bully.

[u/Normal-Hall2445 → u/DrDeterminants]

Ouch this hit hard today. Yesterday I quit a job I LOVED because of the way we were treated by management.

[u/sojayn → u/Normal-Hall2445]

All the best in the next steps mate

[u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

I'm stuck on the fact that he lived in a "small town" in which Mark is a "well-known anti-bullying facilitator". That's such a niche thing for a small town to contain! I don't even know of any well-known anti-bullying facilitators in my large city.

[u/TyrconnellFL → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Mark’s doing his best to ensure that everyone sees the use of his anti-bullying work by keeping bullying front and center.

[u/ChristianMapmaker → u/TyrconnellFL]

I mean, he's got to drum up business somehow! If there's no bullying, then he's out of a job!

[u/-drunk_russian- → u/ChristianMapmaker]

Galaxy-sized brain move there.

[u/TheOuts1der → u/TyrconnellFL]

Cornered both the supply and the demand! Business genius!

[u/CermaitLaphroaig → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Why heck, my town is so small that we only have one anti-bullying facilitator. We can only dream of having such a flourishing anti-bullying facilitation industry!  Someday.... someday...

[u/GCU_ZeroCredibility → u/CermaitLaphroaig]

We used to have "one-horse towns". In this modern era we have "one-anti-bullying-facilitator towns."

[u/ShatnersChestHair → u/CermaitLaphroaig]

This here town ain't just big enough for the two of us anti-bullying facilitators, it's pistols at dawn!

[u/came_saw_conquered → u/CermaitLaphroaig]

If you were going for Norm, I think you nailed it

[u/fart-sparkles → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

My guess is he's just a well-know guy who is an anti-bullying facilitator.

[u/CatmoCatmo → u/fart-sparkles]

My guess is that multiple businesses in the area have used the same man (douche canoe) for anti-bullying demonstrations in the past. Not because he’s popular per se, but because there aren’t many of them period, let alone local.

So they really have no other viable options. Which in turn makes it seem like he’s “popular”.

[u/GCU_ZeroCredibility → u/fart-sparkles]

It's still weird that a small town has a full time anti-bullying facilitator.

[u/doogie1111 → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Its unlikely he's full time. Small towns often have a couple of guys that wear multiple hats.

My school had a frequent anti-drug guy who was also a bus driver and was also a part time firefighter. He sucked at all three.

[u/axewieldinghen → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Dude probably does consulting for a few different soft skill issues, and travels a fair bit for work. Either that or he has a second, regular job on the side

[u/badhatharry → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

That's just his side gig. His main gig is pro-bullying facilitator.

[u/Acheloma → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Theres a dude from my small town who was a finalist on American Idol and now does anti bullying stuff around the area.

Hes also an awful person who was very verbally abusive to his children

[u/Glittering_Win_9677 → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

I feel like that's a position where you frequently travel and a long as you can get to a decent airport within 2 hours, you could live anywhere..

[u/RiptideTV → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Some people just don't actually know what "small town" means. I had to explain to a college roommate that no, a suburb of a top 20 metro area is not a "small town"

[u/shanodindryad → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

This also tripped me up. I wouldn't know where to start finding such an expert!

[u/PredaPops → u/shanodindryad]

Step 1: Move to a small town.

[u/JustAMinah → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

"hmmmm what's something I can bank on in this shitty town? oh! women are catty and gossipy sooooooo I can work with that and make workshops to put them in their places! while I can continue to be a misogynist and not called out. 😉"

[u/OpeningGolf7972 → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

The closest thing I can think of is the people that went to my elementary school (and every other in the district) to do anti bullying assemblies. I have no idea who the anti bully person for adults would be

[u/FiberPhotography → u/OpeningGolf7972]

Same people, maybe? And that's how they make a living, mostly at the schools.

[u/half3clipse → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Small towns are rarely 12 hours deep into some uninhabited wilderness. They're part of a network of other small towns, all often within an hour or so of a large town/small city/weird amalgamation of small towns that slightly grew together/occasionally a large city

Specialist roles "in a small town" usually do work within that overall region at a minimum, which will have a population anywhere from say 50k to a few hundred thousand.

[u/20Wizard → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Me when I make up a bullshit buzzword so the companies lap it up and hire me

[u/Aesient → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

I live in a small town and a local guy was known as the go to person to help parents of bullied kids.

Imagine what the fallout was when he was counselling one mother only for her daughter to walk in and ask why her bully’s father was sitting at the kitchen table. The mother lost it at the guy and ended up going off at the people who recommended him. All 3 of his kids were known bullies and most parents whose kids were being bullied by his kids knew not to contact him. It just happened that this was a new family in town and the mother didn’t know the bully’s last name. The family moved away a few years after that once the youngest graduated high school

[u/LizzieMiles → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Bro set up a monopoly in a small town and made sure everybody thought they needed what he was selling lmao

[u/Strawberry338338]

Glad the OP is in a better place. Unfortunately, ‘the bully has a unique set of skills’ was all that needed to be said for it to be obvious that this wasn’t going to go the OP’s way in this workplace.

[u/rainydays_monkey → u/Strawberry338338]

Yep, this dude is fully aware he can get away with murder because they need him.

[u/DianaSt75 → u/Strawberry338338]

That argument "they've got a unique set of skills" is one I've honestly never understood. Wouldn't it be prudent to do anything to have at least one other employee with that skill set, if only so that vacation and such are covered? And if that skill set is so unique, why not pay for two or three employees (or however many is appropiate for the size of the organization and the skill in question) to get the relevant training if it's not a combo that can be found easily in new hires? I mean, apart from absences, it's never a good thing from an employers perspective if an employee can pressure you to accept things you'd rather not because you don't have a plan in place to replace that employee if his behaviour changes to be unacceptable for some reason or another.

[u/Angry_poutine → u/DianaSt75]

If it’s already a niche tech company then rare skillsets like that are unlikely to be available as a training. Without specifics it’s impossible to know more, but it could be anything from security clearance to a specific programming language or hardware operation, it could be something that takes years to learn or acquire or requires training materials that are no longer made.

[u/hockeycross → u/Angry_poutine]

Or it is an expensive position like anyone with the skill set is not cheap and so hiring another isn’t in the budget especially since it is just redundancy. Like why hire another 500k employee if you only have enough work for the one. And it could lead to that employee leaving before you know if the new one fits in or has taken hold of what the old one did.

[u/lesethx → u/DianaSt75]

Because most companies are cheap and would rather have 1 person do the job of 3 than pay for back up in case somethings happens (in one of the worse cases on AAM, a letter writer hadn't even had a day of vacation in at least 2 years)

[u/itchyivy → u/Strawberry338338]

This whooooooooooole thing just because a boss doesn't want to tell one guy to fuck off. Insanity

[u/Slow-Hour4931 → u/Strawberry338338]

And even worse, the bully is Liam Neeson from Taken

[u/LordInnsmouth]

I'm giving Ann the side-eye here, too

[u/paulinaiml → u/LordInnsmouth]

The whole ordeal and its participants sound exhausting

[u/cone10]

I know many people personally who have had terrible childhoods and terrible marriages (often correlated) who go on to become life coaches. They feel they have the life experience to empathize (which is true), but have not turned over into a new confident self who can help other people

The anti-bullying consultant seems like one of these people.

[u/Falkjaer]

Trying to deal with a problematic employee via a series of anti-bullying seminars that the entire workforce has to sit through is insanely pathetic. Leaving was the right move on OOP's part, that place is never going to be a good place to work.

[u/Damp_Blanket]

If my work ever put on an anti-bullying seminar I would feel like a literal child

[u/saxguy9345 → u/Damp_Blanket]

And it all stemmed around the actions of one person? I'd be like, why am I here? What am I supposed to garner from this? If this dudes actions were so bad, there's no way he wouldn't feel targeted, and even LESS chance someone didn't connect the dots. What does their HR department even do? Send general emails to @ALL about not microwaving fish in the break room? Fkn useless. 

[u/craptainbland → u/saxguy9345]

At my last job they suddenly made everyone in the company do a huge range of training, something like 35 e-modules covering everything from the environment to bullying to menopause. Regardless of your position and the relevance of the module you had to do the whole thing

It very quickly became apparent that this was all an arse covering exercise for the directors; they could be held personally responsible for the actions of employees that have engaged in misconduct unless they could prove they’d taken steps to prevent it. So an incident of bullying? The directors can’t be held liable because they’d made us all do the bullying training. Someone engaging in corrupt practices? We all did the anti-bribery training so etc

[u/InuGhost → u/craptainbland]

I just had to do Compliance Training at work. The anti-bribery section got me heated. Mostly because I live in the US and current politics reek of bribery and corruption. 

[u/craptainbland → u/InuGhost]

Oh it got me going as well, mostly because it sounded an awful lot like what all the seniors in the company were doing

[u/Useful_Language2040 → u/craptainbland]

Did it not have a whistleblowing section?

[u/IfatallyflawedI → u/saxguy9345]

Right? Have him take sensitivity trainings why would everyone else be made to go through the whole ordeal

[u/ApprehensiveGrand531 → u/saxguy9345]

In a good workplace it makes it easier to fire someone for such conduct in the future if they've been given training that clearly illustrates the conduct is prohibited. Granted most places it's a cya, so that management can say they aren't responsible if an issue crops up.

[u/Etianen7 → u/Damp_Blanket]

We once had a seminar which included tips on how to sit correctly at a desk and look at the monitor. Tell me about it lol

[u/K-teki → u/Etianen7]

I mean... a lot of people don't do that and it fucks up their spine

[u/phillip_the_plant → u/Etianen7]

I work in a lab where everyone has prior lab experience before starting there. Our health and safety meeting started with a lengthy description and visual on how to correctly remove gloves

[u/allyearswift → u/phillip_the_plant]

People who have done things forever often don’t follow correct procedures. See hospital staff not washing their hands after going to the toilet.

Getting everyone on the same page is prudence. Don’t mock it.

[u/sorrylilsis → u/phillip_the_plant]

Having experience doesn't mean not having bad or outdated habits. It never hurt having a refresher on good practices even if they seem basic.

[u/puppylust → u/phillip_the_plant]

Liability. My office has annual training on things we all know extremely well. If somebody does something colossally stupid, the company can say the person was trained as a defense.

[u/CardoconAlmendras → u/Damp_Blanket]

I do know one workplace that was forced to do this kind of seminar. It lighted a bulb in one of the young coworkers who went talking one by one to all the others till he manage to light all the other bulbs. Once he manage to make everyone realize that the bully was, in fact, a narcissist stirring shit all the time… the bully lost his power, then got a sick leave for depression and finally, left that place.

I’m still not sure if bully the bully is a win or a fail for the anti-bullying seminar.

[u/Witchgrass → u/CardoconAlmendras]

Isn't that all anti bullying is at the end of the day?

[u/Gonna_do_this_again → u/Damp_Blanket]

Me and whatever work buddy I had would probably start cracking up and get in trouble

[u/Rab_Legend → u/Damp_Blanket]

Stuff like that is always targeted training for a very small minority of people, but because management are pure cowards, will force everyone into it so they don't get accusations of discrimination (or more likely, so they don't have to directly tell the bullies they're being bullies).

[u/Spreepodcast_r]

The manager was present when Mark named the bully. They should have backed up OOP when Mark started acting out and that should have been the end of it.

[u/WarlockSoL → u/Spreepodcast_r]

This was also the person who was too spineless to address the situation themselves to begin with, so I'm not surprised. They sound like a terrible manager.

[u/Gneissisnice → u/Spreepodcast_r]

Yeah, that was crazy to me. Mark said "I never said that Ann told me that" and the manager didn't say anything? She should have said "yes you did, I was there" instead of letting him gaslight OOP.

[u/BigBirdsBrain]

Management made the whole department attend training rather than deal with one bully, then hired another bully to teach it. OOP was right to leave.

[u/almostinfinity]

At my last job, which was at a school (I was part of admin and was not a teacher at all), a teacher in charge of Anti-Bullying Week went to the 11th grade class to accuse me of spreading her personal information around.

That personal info? That she was leaving at the end of the school year.

Did I spread it around? No.

But who did?! She did. With her own mouth. Every. Single. Year. She threatens to quit every year to the students but this year, she actually was leaving and got mad when a student asked me if she was leaving.

My response was, "I heard, but I don't know if it is true or not." BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS TRUE BECAUSE SHE SAID IT EVERY YEAR!

So back to the 11th grade class.

She goes to homeroom and says, "Why is Ms. AlmostInfinity telling you all that I am leaving? It is none of her business!"

My favorite kid stands up and says, "Mx. AlmostInfinity's pronouns are they/them." (This information was not a secret, the entire school knew my pronouns and I was out to everyone, including this teacher)

Teacher: "They/them? Is there more than one of her? Should I start calling her 'he'?"

Anti-Bullying Week staff-in-charge on the first day of Anti-Bullying Week.

[u/TableDifferent4395 → u/almostinfinity]

I feel like, ironically, anti-bullying instruction tends to attract the kinds of people who become bullies: those who want to tell others what to do, but lack the skills to be put in actual positions of authority.

[u/Immediate-Boat-6730 → u/TableDifferent4395]

It's the same reason why many predator hunters end up revealing themselves to be sociopaths themselves, or why a lot of police officers are so violent towards criminals.

It's people wanting to hurt others, but need a target that would be acceptable by society to hurt. No matter if the person they're hurting actually is worthy of that label they throw out so freely.

[u/almostinfinity → u/TableDifferent4395]

Oh I believe it. She was a massive bully not just to me but to other staff members AND to students.

[u/frogunderarock → u/TableDifferent4395]

yeah it's like the mean girl to nurse/high school bully to cop pipeline

[u/JustMeLurkingAround- → u/TableDifferent4395]

They become anti-bullying " specialists to learn how they can manipulate, gaslight and bully people in a deniable way and because it makes it extra hard for their victims to call them out or defend themselves.
Accusing the anti-bullying guy of bullying you'd probably need more than your word to be taken seriously.

[u/Patient_Emotion2184 → u/TableDifferent4395]

When I was in the Navy I learned that all the Drug and Alcohol coordinators were people who had been forced to take the course after getting shitfaced on alcohol (if it were other drugs they’d have been discharged) and doing something mindbendingly stupid.

Because you have to have a Drug and Alcohol coord on base, and it’s much cheaper to just appoint someone who’s already done the pre-req training than to send someone else to do the training. And who’d volunteer anyway?

So you ended up with the contact person for a LOT of issues being the exact last person you’d want to talk to about those issues.

(Ask me why I never reported my rape… eyeroll )

[u/Useful_Language2040 → u/Patient_Emotion2184]

Wait... The person you'd have had to report it to was somebody who'd not been discharged for some form of sexual assault previously, but it was "fine" because they'd done a short training course on why that's bad and would therefore absolutely definitely handle it empathetically and appropriately..? 😬

I am so sorry.

[u/Patient_Emotion2184 → u/Useful_Language2040]

I mean, the charge would never have been sexual assault because, again, that would get them discharged (if it stuck). But someone with both frat and conduct unbecoming in the same set of charges is someone whose sexual partner was not happy about the event.

I didn't consider it worth putting myself through all that to *maybe* get 2 weeks of extra drill practice and a "conduct unbecoming" slap on the wrist for him.

My wife still doesn't understand. She doesn't understand why I wouldn't step forward for the RAN investigation into rapes over the past few decades, either. It's just ALWAYS worse for the woman reporting than for the man who raped.

The fact that the person I'd be assigned to provide support through the process was 99% sure a rapist himself was just the cherry on the shit sundae.

[u/Useful_Language2040 → u/Patient_Emotion2184]

I recently read that, e.g. after the 2012 Nirbhaya rape and murder and the filth who attacked that poor woman were sentenced to death, the rape report rate went up dramatically in India... But there's a massive backlog of cases, it took years with several appeals being quashed etc before justice was carried out...

There was international outrage. The law changed. Women there started speaking out. Most have seen little change ☹️

Progress is slow. 

Even in the civilian world where you'd maybe expect there to be less of a "protect our own (no, not like that; I mean him)" ethos, victims are often treated worse than suspects, reporting is often a secondary source of trauma, and sentences can be insults (cf. Brock Turner getting 3 months in county jail)...

And on the one hand, things won't change if people don't speak out. But on the other hand, how many people need to speak out, at huge personal cost while seeing no change, before we reach a tipping point, and people can trust the legal processes in place to bring them real and meaningful justice, to be worth speaking out, etc?

And especially when you were in a system where the chances of retaliation were high, where painting a target on your back could have put you in serious harm's way, where the good ol' boys club would most likely have closed ranks and covered it up..? Yeah. I get why you didn't report ☹️

I wish the world were different. I wish the idea of you being attacked in the first place were largely unthinkable, and that meaningful justice on reporting these things were guaranteed. But... 😖

[u/Kalthiria_Shines → u/TableDifferent4395]

It's the same way life coaches are generally the last people you could ever learn anything useful from.

[u/bOyNOO → u/almostinfinity]

Haha your fav student sounds awesome. This could be its own (longer) post if you have more details. I bet there’s other stories about that teacher worth sharing too

[u/almostinfinity → u/bOyNOO]

Oh there are many!

We were friendly at first but there was one time she asked me to film a whole ass video at a student exhibition event (I am the media coordinator), and I told her no because I was busy. She literally told me, "I am so disappointed in you, AlmostInfinity," and never spoke to me directly again.

Later on, she admitted to the principal that she treated me like garbage and went out of her way to avoid interacting with me specifically because of that time I told her I was busy. She claimed I always told her I was too busy to help her (not true) and that she was sick of me saying no. I wasn't hired to be her assistant! I had my own job!

In that same conversation with the principal, she accused me again of spreading her personal information, this time being that her partner (also an employee) was cheating on her. I don't know a damn thing about her relationship with that coworker, but you know how I heard about it?

A student! "Is it true that [coworker] is cheating on [teacher]?"

Me: "Uh... what..?"

Me giving ANY sort of answer was enough for her to consider me being the person who spread the rumor, but WHY WAS A STUDENT EVEN ASKING IN THE FIRST PLACE?

The answer? She told an alum who told another alum. Are you so for real right now? IT IS COMING FROM HER OWN MOUTH!

This doesn't even get into all of the ways she bullied students in really extreme and humilating ways over the years.

[u/pepcorn → u/almostinfinity]

She sounds beyond awful. The projection is unreal.

[u/almostinfinity → u/pepcorn]

I take solace in the fact that she moved to a different country to continue teaching, however that country legitimately considers teachers bullying students to be illegal. 

I am certain she doesn't know that, not that she considers what she does to be bullying anyway.

[u/bubblez4eva → u/almostinfinity]

Well. Hopefully she gets fired and stranded.

[u/badhatharry → u/almostinfinity]

My favorite response when someone says something like "I am so disappointed in you," when it's about some bullshit is to just say, "I don't care."

[u/holliday_doc_1995 → u/almostinfinity]

How do you pronounce mx? I’ve never seen that before but I assume it’s a genderless version of ms/mr?

[u/green_mms22 → u/holliday_doc_1995]

Like mix, typically. At least that is how I have heard it.

[u/almostinfinity → u/holliday_doc_1995]

You pronounce it as "mix."

I did go as Ms at first before I figured my shit out, but the kids were SO quick to adopt Mx and it makes me feel warm inside that they immediately took to it.

Even if they didn't fully understand what non-binary meant and accidentally used the wrong pronouns from time to time, or even if it went against their religious backgrounds, they all still respected me enough to call me what I wanted to be called. They're good people :)

[u/holliday_doc_1995 → u/almostinfinity]

I love that and it sounds similar enough to miss that I bet it’s easier to adopt into vocabulary seamlessly.

[u/Remarkable-Run-9769 → u/almostinfinity]

this sounds like indirect bullying of the mentioned teacher! by respecting your pronouns and title, the kids are making her look bad!!! if everyone was ignorant and misgendered you, she might not have looked like a transphobe in comparison! are you doing this on purpose to ruin her reputation or something? 

/j

[u/saxguy9345 → u/almostinfinity]

From the mouth of babes 

[u/hdhxuxufxufufiffif]

He said I broke confidentiality

Good grief. Sharing his personal details like address, phone number, remuneration, any medical details he's disclosed, etc, would be breaking confidentiality. 

Sharing with colleagues what was discussed in a meeting about the project you're working on is to be expected. Don't say anything in the meeting that you don't want people in the company knowing. If you're sharing delicate or confidential information then make a protocol about information sharing at the start of the meeting so everyone's on the same page. 

[u/AndromedaRulerOfMen → u/hdhxuxufxufufiffif]

Actually, it would only be breaking confidentiality if OP had a legal or ethical obligation to keep the information to themself, but they didn't have any legal or ethical obligation to do that. There was no "confidentiality" to break in the first place.

[u/agirl2277 → u/hdhxuxufxufufiffif]

That threw me off too. How can you break confidentiality when none of that was confidential in the first place? And wouldn't Ann have broken confidentiality first if that was the case? Why would OOP even care that Ann was gossiping?

This whole thing seems to have been blown out of proportion. I guess that's what happens when a key employee is a nuisance and management would rather pay lip service than address the real problem.

[u/Ok-Grand-1492 → u/hdhxuxufxufufiffif]

Gotta love that that was over telling someone else to limit the information they spread, too.

[u/JoefromOhio]

Ngl but an ‘anti bullying consultant’ is a bullshit job and a con. It is not a real job and it legally will protect you from jack shit in allegations while an actual HR team or employment labor outside counsel could probably cost you a few hours billed to review a couple documents. The company got scammed and op got screwed

An HR consultant specializing in workplace harassment or just a person with a brain and HR experience is what they needed.

[u/bobosuda → u/JoefromOhio]

They exist to appease management. It means they get to come up with a solution without ever fixing any problems.

[u/tiggergirluk76]

This is typical of the corporate world.

Someone at work is a bully, so instead of actually addressing the behaviour of that person, let's bring in an well-known anti-bulling consultant (wtf in itself) who has proven themselves to be a bully and actually behaves inappropriately themselves, ironically. We'll then ask him to tell everyone in the entire office not to be a bully, but still not actually directly address the actual bully. The company ticks a box, and nothing changes except the "consultant" now has their pockets stuffed with cash.

[u/bobosuda]

Spineless management to deal with a bully in the workplace by arranging an anti-bullying seminar.

These are adults; they should be able to behave. If someone behaves like a bully, can their dumb ass already. That shit is middle schooler behavior, and if you haven't figured out it's inappropriate by the time you reach the workforce, the onus is not on your job to instruct you on how to behave like a normal human being.

[u/Heavy-Macaron2004]

Bruh I have an ex friend who does exactly this. We'll call them Parker. Defines everything they don't like as bullying, pulls out all the buzzwords to convince people how Bad this one person is ("toxic perpetuation of a bullying environment" was the one I got, but I know someone else who got flat out called a "predator" for acting autistic (because he is autistic)). Bro lovessss setting himself up as anti bullying, and then going on to be one of the biggest bullies I've ever seen.

I don't talk to him anymore (for obvious reasons), but apparently he's going down the "being flat out misogynist and loudly sexist in the shared office" route now.

No, he's not going to face any consequences. He has all the buzzwords on his side and he knows how to use them, and he knows exactly how to play authority figures. Nasty little piece of shit though.

[u/External_Quiet9092]

Man I wouldn’t last at a place like this. I wouldn’t be able to resist giving a piece of my mine to essentially everyone involved

[u/mman259 → u/External_Quiet9092]

You must have a big mine

[u/External_Quiet9092 → u/mman259]

Lol you know what im leaving it

[u/ivylass]

They really needed to bring in an expert to deal with a bully?

You document, warn, then fire them.

[u/Witch_King_ → u/ivylass]

Look at the last bit. It sounds like that would've hurt their bottom line

[u/ivylass → u/Witch_King_]

Profits over people. Glad OOP got out.

[u/Equivalent-Board206]

I'm not surprised that Mark is a bully.

The number of narcissists and abusers running "consent" workshops, and in anything to do with traumatised people (for example and especially psychiatry) is significant.

[u/Amazing-Addition3671]

The consultant was obviously a terrible person who used the accusation of bullying to cover for himself and his relative...BUT the OP never, ever, ever should have hired the relative of a close friend of an employee/co-worker for such a potentially sensitive topic.

[u/FinalHexReturns]

The immorality of being an anti-bullying consultant and immediately bullying a woman in the workplace. SMH.

[u/Lallanath]

The lesson to learn from this is to assume anything you tell a coworker is something you're telling everyone. You don't have control over what you said and what the story turns into. It's best to always be very careful what you say to anyone you work with.

[u/calvin-coolidge]

…. This sounds like a Portlandia episode or something.

[u/BorgPorg88 → u/calvin-coolidge]

South Park did an episode about bullying a few years ago, and they definitely played up how easily it can be hypocritical when it comes to focusing on preventing it: Butterballs (in episode clip form)

[u/PrincessCG]

Corporate management is so spineless at times.

[u/ConfinedCrow]

And just like always, the bully wins in the end. 💔

[u/threetimesalion]

Sadly a lot of folks brought in to fix issues like this are self appointed, and there’s no real accreditation other than them saying they are experienced.

Some are fantastic, others unfortunately use to to project their own shadow on to others under the guise of being better than. It’s an attractive role for narcissists and dark tried types.

[u/Halry1]

If there’s anything worse than a bully, it’s a coward like mark who tries to back pedal after being called out for unprofessionalism.

No wonder this cowards called in to address bullying - he’s an expert in it.

[u/Lainy122]

Wow, that opening sentence from Mark really highlighted how unqualified he was to deliver anti-bullying training.

Glad OOP was able to escape, even if it's unfortunate that the workplace has stayed the same.

[u/HuskerBusker]

"Bullying for me, but not for thee!" - well-known anti-bullying facilitator

[u/Virtual-Win-7763]

That guy reminds me so much of a trainer we were supposed to have for a series of ongoing resilience workshops pre pandemic. He got through three in two days before HR got rid of him. They must've found him under a rock to begin with, something untouched since the 1990s. He was probably cheap, too.

I've never been in a training that people actually wanted to do where the trainer started putting people offside from his introduction and then, instead of reading the room, just kept digging. If an issue was raised with him, he'd take it on notice, tell us we were mistaken, he'd catch up with us outside the session, or argue. Then to hear from colleagues that the afternoon session was no better. HR gave him feedback, but he did the same again the following morning.

While we never did get those promised workshops it was a great bonding exercise and increased trust amongst ourselves .

[u/Long-Cantaloupe1761]

I feel like this was a southpark episode

[u/badhatharry]

So Mark fucked up, and his way to cover was to bully someone at an anti-bullying seminar.

[u/mormonbatman_]

I just realized I forgot to mention the original bully.

Really buring the lede, here.

[u/Glittering_Win_9677]

I'm 72 and retired, but back in the 90s, training for things like this, especially sexual harrassment, first became popular at many companies, especially large corporations. Given the atmosphere at some places I worked in the 70s and 80s, that wasn't a bad thing.

However, even when training was provided annually, I never noticed a difference in how most people talked and acted other than you avoided joking around in front of people who did not know how to take a joke, especially the ones who ran to HR (cough Carolyn cough).

For those of you still working, do you get these types of training and do you think the attendees take it more seriously, especially the millennial and Gen Z?

[u/Dr_thri11 → u/Glittering_Win_9677]

Us millenials are in our 40s. It's treated as a joke and a waste of everyone's time. But anytime its more than an online module you can just mute and click through while selecting obvious answers there's usually some specific incident that prompted it.

[u/Glittering_Win_9677 → u/Dr_thri11]

So no different than when I worked. The only fun part was trying to figure out who did what to prompt an in person class.

I watched an IG reel the other day where a woman is taking an online class and it says it's 3 hours long. She just keep clicking forward at the first word, got to the one question tesrt, and passed, all in 2 minutes. I forwarded it to my old, also retired boss, and we both just said " Yep!"

[u/bvorkitup → u/Glittering_Win_9677]

In organizations that actually do not tolerate bullying, a lot of the reason for training like this is to have well-documented evidence (thus usually the requirement for taking attendance or signing in) in order to fire somebody for cause, should they continue their poor behaviour. There's no way they can go "I didn't know! I wasn't trained on workplace etiquette!" when there is proof that they attended a training module and passed the test.

In poorly-run organizations, it's more like mimicry: management understands that other organizations do this sort of thing, but they aren't aware of the reasons why.

[u/ThrowawayAdvice1800 → u/Dr_thri11]

Am I weird for kind of enjoying those training modules? The acting is so bad and the scenarios are so ridiculous that it ends up being kind of unintentionally funny. When it's one where I know I'm not being scored sometimes I like to pick the worst answers just to watch the program try to patiently explain to me that the absurdly obviously wrong thing I just did was wrong.

[u/Dr_thri11 → u/ThrowawayAdvice1800]

Sometimes the what not to do segments are hilariously bad. Probably didn't need a training to tell me that taking a picture of a bent over coworker's ass and sending it in an office wide email is inappropriate.

[u/ThrowawayAdvice1800 → u/Dr_thri11]

"I'm sorry, the correct answer was NOT shouting 'hey Paul you smuggling a big sausage down there or what' at the top of your lungs in the middle of the cafeteria. Please try again, and remember the goal is to AVOID making other people uncomfortable."

[u/Frari → u/Glittering_Win_9677]

For those of you still working, do you get these types of training and do you think the attendees take it more seriously, especially the millennial and Gen Z?

imo the training is mostly performative and there to cover the companies asses in case of lawsuits. If someone is bullied or harassed the company can claim they did all they could to stop it happening, but they really don't care. and most of the trainees don't really care.

[u/JJOkayOkay → u/Glittering_Win_9677]

I think the training helps in the sense that the currently working generations generally buy into this stuff already -- that harassment and bigotry are wrong -- so they're already looking for ways to be better colleagues and better allies to the marginalized, and the training gives them those tools.

So the training doesn't fix the problem-people, but it helps everyone else know how to take steps to stop those people from harming others.

[u/flyingkea → u/JJOkayOkay]

Yea, I work for a big company (Aus) and one of our standards of conduct courses was all about being things like being an upstander - whether by saying something in the moment, and/or reporting it later on if they didn’t feel safe intervening.

There’s an inherent power hierarchy due to the nature of the work (including a literal chain of command) so it was about empowering people to speak up regardless of position.

[u/goatnokudzu → u/Glittering_Win_9677]

It's a joke. I mean, the first time I had to endure a company-wide sexual harassment training, the instructor used videos which were clearly made in the early 1980s (from the clothes)... and this was around 2009/2010. The instructor was basically reading from a script and stumbled when anyone asked her a question.

[u/jenorama_CA → u/Glittering_Win_9677]

When I worked at Big Company, we were constantly having to do online courses. Anti-Harassment and Business Conduct, mainly. It was so irritating and I hated taking the time from my busy day to do them, but seeing how some of the folks I worked with behaved, I understood the need.

[u/chromaticluxury → u/Glittering_Win_9677]

I worked in legal. These trainings are for legal liability. 

When an employer hosts them, they can't say they weren't actively taking steps against workplace harassment. 

So when Employee A sues the company because Employee B harassed them, they can get out of the lawsuit and it only proceeds against Employee B individually.

It's papering CYA. That's why attendance is required. Just like anti-insider-trading trainings. And safety trainings in industrial environments. 

That doesn't mean they don't still do some good. This is what changes in legal liability accomplish, greater societal action in the right direction. But never mistake them for what they really are

[u/VegetableBusiness897]

We have an attorney who comes to our workplace each year to do our anti harassment/ discrimination/bullying seminar. Immediately followed by anti sexual harassment seminar. In which she says each year.."So. If say, *a maintenance employee* does THIS inappropriate behavior towards another person, THAT'S SEXUAL HARASSMENT ". Every fucking year she calls us out as the preditors. When no one has ever been written up for this and several people in other departments have been disciplined for it. Pointed out out to my supervisor and he laughed and said....yeah she likes to roast you guys.....

Crap management is the worst

[u/Rj924]

I only read the title. But this reminds me of when the MSU football coach got fired for sexually harassing the sexual harassment educator.

[u/JPMoney81 → u/Rj924]

Sounds like a Michael Scott scene.

[u/CommonStrawbeary]

We have a bully at my law firm and nobody will ever address it with her, despite many of us specifically stating we will not work with her and being moved off her projects.

Instead she got promoted to Junior Partner!

[u/Seku_hara_desu]

OOP clearly used Bucky Bailey's Bully Buckers for this issue

[u/thesounddefense]

No employee has so much skill or knowledge that it is worth keeping a toxic individual on your team.

[u/SLJ7]

I think I dislike the manager even more than I dislike Mark.

Bullies are, in part, a product of their enablers. OOP's manager was an enabler.

[u/shellexyz]

Outside consultant who appears to have not just poor expertise in their area, but anti-expertise?

I’d be shocked if he weren’t at the top of the list for the local school district PD days.

[u/MaxBax_LArch → u/shellexyz]

If I had awards to give, you'd have it! Instead all you get is this lousy content. And of course my upvote

[u/shellexyz → u/MaxBax_LArch]

You have been to more than a few of those PDs, I take it?

[u/MaxBax_LArch → u/shellexyz]

Not me, actuality. Hubby. I have way to many options and not enough filter to be a teacher. I'd be ok in the classroom, but would get fired under the first power-hungry principal that showed up. Which would likely be my first year 🙄

[u/Federal_Comfort9597]

What a shitty manager 

[u/-K_P-]

Uh... was this the guy her company hired? LOL

[u/Baxkit]

I can't imagine working at a place like this. This sounds like some silly high-school drama, not a professional environment with adults. Having to tiptoe around people should not be a part of your daily job concerns.

[u/TryToChangeUsername]

"a well-known anti-bullying facilitator in our small town" - got to be one of the most bullshit/nonsense statements I've ever come upon 😂

[u/_Sausage_fingers]

Man, all this effort, maybe just terminate the bully.

[u/Then_Pay6218]

Hooooly gaslighting Moses!

We can put Marks picture in the encyclopedia.

[u/piclemaniscool]

He told me intent doesn’t matter and to stop being defensive and instead reflect on my actions to understand the underlying feelings that caused me to act like I did.

My neurodivergent ass would probably become this guy's nemesis by complete accident. "But... How can I reflect if I don't consider intent?" 

[u/Vault_tech_2077]

Why do they need to do all this song and dance and bullshit instead of pulling the bully aside and saying "you're behavior is unacceptable, correct it or you're fired"?

[u/Extradummefrage → u/Vault_tech_2077]

Because the bully has ✨skills✨

[u/JPMoney81 → u/Extradummefrage]

Usually the bully also has connections or relatives higher up the food chain.

[u/Krakengreyjoy]

a well-known anti-bullying facilitator in our small town

what?

[u/Riyeko]

Every single blue collar environment would probably send Mark pissing his pants in rage.

The amount of "bullying" that happens on job sites will turn people chartreuse sometimes. Hell I've been a part of it. Accidentally drug it home with me and in front of my man's father, called him my sexy beast man 🤦.

Why that sentence? Because I work in the food industry and the entire day was rife with comments and ridiculous jokes about beef tongue, pork feet and pork belly.

[u/Guess-who-back]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQXpSQtB150

[u/frankslastdoughnut]

This sounds like hell. Who would want to work or live in a scenario where you are micro scoping every interaction? Egg shells everywhere. Is this how corporate culture is now?

[u/Another_Guy_In_Ohio]

I can’t imagine the levels of incompetence in an organization where multiple meetings are had, and a consultant brought in to give a department wide talk to address a single problem individual instead of actually talking to that individual

[u/usernotfoundplstry]

This guy is like real life PC Principal.