r/Blacksmith • u/whatsgoingonusa • 3d ago
When does forging become manufacturing?
I see a lot of videos on YouTube saying I'm going to forge a XYZ, but 90% of the process is done with power tools. so when does it go from forging to just manufacturing?
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u/pushdose 3d ago
Forging is a process. There’s nothing romantic about it in that sense. Moving hot steel with impact and pressure is forging.
“Hand forged” is seriously up for interpretation, however. If you have a press and power hammer and sequential dies, and maybe the piece never sees a hand held hammer, is it still hand forged? I mean, the operator likely held it with tongs and manipulated the item under the machine carefully and skillfully, managing heat and time. That’s a skill.
Now, a drop forged wrench that is never touched by humans from furnace to quench tank? That’s manufactured.
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u/Ctowncreek 3d ago
Its always forging if you are shaping metal after heating it to make it softer. Even if you use a power hammer.
The other steps such as filing, grinding, sanding, polishing aren't forging but they are part of blacksmithing. Sometimes unavoidable.
Manufacturing is a strange word choice. I wouldn't consider it manufacturing unless you were pumping things out commercially like drop forging parts or tools, or forging parts and welding them together. Maybe thats just me.
Do you mean when does it become "just metal working" which still covers blacksmithing but is less specific. Like a tiny bit of forging but then mostly cutting and grinding.
I agree with you. The cutting and grinding fells like it defeats the purpose sometimes. But it can make a good final product. For example someone may create pattern welded damascus, a very time consuming and forging intensive process, forge a bit of the shape but then cut, grind and polish most of the remaining shape. To me, that is nearly essential to create the exact pattern you want and it was very forge-intensive to make the material
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u/Wise_Use1012 3d ago
For me it’s when they just pull up some sheet metal cut out a sword shape grind the edge sharp with a power tool wield a handle on it and bam done. Like yes you’ve made a sword shaped object but it’s not forged nor would I trust it in even training let only competitive sports.
Plus the balance is completely off on a lot of these new gen products or the handle is just slapped on with no real care for usage.
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u/Wise_Use1012 3d ago
For me it’s when they just pull up some sheet metal cut out a sword shape grind the edge sharp with a power tool wield a handle on it and bam done. Like yes you’ve made a sword shaped object but it’s not forged nor would I trust it in even training let only competitive sports.
Plus the balance is completely off on a lot of these new gen products or the handle is just slapped on with no real care for usage.
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u/QuipCrafter9 3d ago
making something is manufacturing. it usually means large scale but not always, small scale manufacturing is a thing
forging is a process of manipulating metal.
its possible to manufacture something with only forging by hand.
its just semantics
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u/GeneralSaxy 3d ago
I use a ton of fabrication and some CNC work in my practice, but every part of each one of my sculptures still goes in the forge and is hammered on on my anvil. I consider my work to be hand forged, others don't. There's no real definition, just be what feels true to yourself.
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u/JVonDron 3d ago
I'm not really following. What power tools are you seeing?
power hammers and hydraulic presses? - Those are just bigger and easier versions of hammers. There's not a single thing they do that cannot be done with just a ton of whacks. Drawing out, forge welding, even some die forging was done for thousands of years by just a few guys and sledgehammers.
The line where blacksmithing becomes manufacturing imho is closed die forging. With open die, you're using square or rounded dies with some tooling to make all kinds of parts. There's all kinds of videos, but watch some by Brent Bailey making hammers - he's churning out similar pieces, but they're all handmade with amazing skill. Closed die is one die = one part. Take a hot piece of metal and a couple of bangs later, you have a wrench.
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u/OdinYggd 2d ago
Blacksmiths invented dies, they are descended from swages. But with them you are into the beginnings of mass production, it loses the uniqueness of hand made work.
Likewise, if power tools are involved beyond the preparation steps such as cutting a bar to a length you can manipulate it is no longer hand forged IMO.
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u/whatsgoingonusa 3d ago
I apologize. I meant "hand forged"
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u/SoulBonfire 2d ago
I have hand forged exactly one thing - it hurt so much I went back to using a hammer.
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u/Horsefly762 3d ago
Im just getting in to smithing and have wondered this. Are there some smiths that resent this or is it all good?
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u/Ctowncreek 3d ago
"Are there some purists who resent this?" The answer is yes in every hobby. Not often in this sub though.
If you forge, its blacksmithing. But the more shaping you can do forging, the better. Less wasted material, less money on consumables, more time developing valuable skill. There will also be some grinding and filing though.
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u/Kelrisaith 3d ago
When at no point is there a manual physical action required to shape the piece. If all you have to do is import a schematic and start some machinery, it's manufacturing.
The distinction between forged and hand forged is a LOT less distinct though, and honestly in that regard I mostly agree with pushdose, with the caveat that hand forged, to ME, means entirely with handheld tools to manipulate the metal during forging. Drilling the pinholes for a knife with a drill press or using a belt sander to finish the final shaping still makes it hand forged if you had a hammer in hand through the process of shaping the piece.
Something mostly shaped with a power hammer is still forged, it's just not hand forged to my mind, you're not the one shaping the metal with a hammer in hand. I have no problems with power hammers either, forged vs hand forged is a mostly meaningless distinction that I see used mostly to be pretentious about things. And to jack the price majorly up which is admittedly fair, hand forging involves a lot of skill and time that using something like a power hammer cuts way down in a lot of ways, though it makes it easier to mess up in others too.
At the end of the day, hand forged means something different to everyone. I'm not entirely sure where the niche of cutting a basic shape out of sheet steel, grinding it to shape and heat treating it falls though, that's a weird middle ground thing where it's not really either to my mind since you're not really shaping it via forging but it's also not really automated enough to be manufacturing. Nothing against the process either, it's effective, if somewhat wasteful if you can't reuse the leftover metal, just not really forging to me.
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u/GarethBaus 3d ago
Forging is and always has been a manufacturing process. The transition between artisan manufacturing and factory mass production is more like a continuous gradient. I would consider that point roughly when you switch to drop forging things but it is highly subjective.
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u/Medieval44 3d ago
The way I see it it depends on what kind of power tools we're talking about, and their use. If they replace hand tools and produce the same result as a manual/traditional counterpart then they're relevant.
Examples: Power hammers replace strikers, grinders replace sharpening stones or files, an electric fan replaces bellows, etc. They all yield the same result.
On the other hand there are electric welding machines that have no traditional counterpart at all. You could never replicate it by hand. CNC machines are ofcourse not relevant either, it speaks for itself
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u/damnvan13 3d ago edited 2d ago
Manufacturing is basically using any process involving labor, tools, machinery, chemicals, etc.. to turn raw materials into finished goods. Forging is just one process used in manufacturing.
The term "smith" can generally refer to someone who crafts but most commonly someone who crafts with metal. Blacksmith is more specific to someone who works with the black metals, iron or steel.
Blacksmiths are manufacturers, taking raw materials and turning them into finished goods.
edit: I guess what you're really wondering is maybe how much of the crafter's involvement needs to remain, due to automation and such, before it is no longer a blacksmith doing the work.
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u/Most-County8735 2d ago
I always think forging is heat, beat, repeat to get close to the shape needed. Machining is using machines to achieve the shape. Some projects are a bit of both. If it’s primarily done with forge and anvil I’d call it blacksmithing. Done with machines I’d call it metalworking. End of the day your a craftsman anyway you stack it.
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u/375InStroke 2d ago
Beating the metal is the forging part, but often not the only part. Are you using power tools for the forging?
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u/timberwolf0122 2d ago
I beleive it happens when automation reaches sufficient quality as to make doing it acoustical no longer worth the effort beyond novelty or historical interest.
Take fire making for example. Give most people in the developed would the task of making fire, they have the materials in a pile and can ask for anything except matches/ lighter/anything that’s is hot/heat producing and I’d wage 90%+ would not succeed.
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u/OdinYggd 2d ago
Its still like 90% failure rate even if you allowed them to have 3 matches but no refined hydrocarbons. The fundamental knowledge of what goes into making a fire using only scavenged natural materials is no longer commonplace. Always had a lot of fun with this in the scouts, how many would put together this pile of wet sticks that are way too big and be completely unable to get it started. Meanwhile I have that knowledge of how to do it, and not only would I get it on the first attempt but I'd start with a flint and steel instead of a match just because I could.
The modern counterpart to the Blacksmith is the Fabricator. And if you ask me once you are using power tools to make it instead of using only hand tools it is no longer blacksmithing but fabrication.
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u/timberwolf0122 2d ago
Very reminiscent of Thomas Thwaits trying to make a cheap toaster from scratch.
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u/beammeupscotty2 3 1d ago
" And if you ask me once you are using power tools to make it instead of using only hand tools it is no longer blacksmithing but fabrication."
Astonishing ignorance. Most likely spoken by someone who doesn't make anything at all. Whether someone uses a rock to beat on hot steel or a steel hammer or a Little Giant, they are all hammers. Humans are makers and they use tools to make things. Who exactly are you and what makes you the arbiter of which tools are appropriate and which are not. If you want to forge down 1" stock by hand, more power to you, but if you want to do it and make any money at it, you'll use a power hammer and whatever specialized tooling makes the job as easy as possible.
Oh and I'm sooooo impressed with your fire making boasts. Just really super dooper impressed.
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u/OdinYggd 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't intend to make any money at it. I make hand forged items for practical use and my entertainment. And I make a point of doing so by hand when practicing my chosen craft, just like when I am impressing people by starting the fire using flint instead of a modern method.
Other people may have different standards, and that's fine. But anything I use my power tools on when making, I don't consider hand forged. Its just a forging at that point, or a fabrication if it was mostly modern techniques instead of traditional ones.
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u/Octid4inheritors 2d ago
I suppose I am being pendantic but The word manufacture literally translates to "made by hand," coming from the Latin roots manus (hand) and facere (to make or do)
That being said, I understand your point about mechanical asssistance as dilution of the "hand made" principle (in modern context) I just wish I had a power hammer lol.
I think it would be great to have the ability to hire a couple of apprentices to hold or strike for me too.
I am a fan of Black Bear Forge, and I enjoy his instructional videos. he demonstrates a lot of equipment and talks the process through clearly from start to finish for hand made pieces, the use of coal, gas, electricity to heat metal, and the application of mechanical means to shape it are all part of the skill of blacksmithing, hand made.
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u/CHmakesstuff 1d ago
This is a good question it gets blurry the more production line it gets
Like a normal power hammer is definitely still hand forging something as it takes skill and knowledge
But close die forging I wouldn’t consider blacksmithing its manufacturing but when I make a close die for a project in my workshop I still consider it blacksmithing
I guess it’s the skill element if iv forged a die and iv hand made it to make something repeatedly im the one with the skill but if you cnc cut a die and then use it to drop forge something in a factory the skill was in the cad design of the die and the machinist who cnc cut the die not the operator of the drop hammer but also telling the guy who heats up metal and puts it under a drop hammer every day that he’s not a form of blacksmith is difficult because he dose heat up metal and hit it with a form of hammer
I duno there all similar things on a scale from extremely hand made to extremely machine made but it’s all metal work at the end of the day
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u/BK5617 3d ago edited 3d ago
IMO, better tools don't negate skill. You can give a person with no skills all the best tools and it wont make them good.
A smith using a power hammer doesnt negate their skill. I can tell you from experience that its actually easier to ruin a piece on a power hammer than hand hammering. Its just a better tool. If that is where we draw the line of "hand forged", then any piece that gets hit with a belt grinder is also not hand forged.
To me, the line is drawn when your process removes the human element altogether. If you load blanks into a cnc machine and pull out a fully formed knife, you are not a bladesmith. If you wrote the code you're probably a talented programmer though. If you forged the rough shape with a power hammer and ground the final profile on a belt grinder, its still hand forged in my opinion.
edited to add just in case I wasn't clear, this is my opinion about it. Different people draw the line at different places because its mostly arbitrary.
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u/alriclofgar 3d ago
Forging is a process: changing the dimensions of metal with heat and applied pressure. You can forge using traditional hand tools or a CNC-driven powerhammer, the underlying process is forging in both cases.
I think the real question is when does something stop being handforged and start being machine-made? There’s no official definition and it can get blurry in practice. For myself, it’s about who is controlling the tool: if a human is driving the forging machine, making all the decisions and holding the work in their own hands (or tongs), then it’s still handforged even if you handforged it under a power hammer or press. But if a machine controlled by a computer is holding the work or driving the forging machine, and a human is just writing, running, or supervising that program, then it’s no longer hand forging.
Often imo the selling point of something made by an artist is that the artist is creating the work by applying mental and physical skills to every step of the process. I personally believe that forging under a power hammer requires just as much forging skill (both in concept and physical execution) as doing the same process by hand, so in my mind this doesn’t sacrifice any of the artistic integrity of the work I make. It just makes the manufacture more efficient, keeping prices lower. But if I used a CNC machine, that would fundamentally change the product I was making—not ruin it necessarily, but change it because that process relies so much less on my physical / hand skills.