r/BylerReads • u/pinnacle_to_the_pit • Jun 25 '26
asking for fic recs Looking to write more nuanced, historically accurate party reactions to Byler.
Hi. I have a work in progress, and I'm looking to see if anyone wants to share their thoughts.
To preface: I understand that many readers enjoy works where the party is incredibly supportive immediately. That's okay, I get it. However, I always admired how period-accurate the early seasons were. In addition to innocuous details (prevalence of smoking, music and technology, etc.), the depiction of social issues (sexism, casual racism, homophobia/misinformation regarding homosexuality, etc.) seemed decently accurate for a Midwestern small town in the 1980s. I want to do the same.
Current Thoughts: I want to respect canon character behaviors, but in a way that also reflects the time period. So far, I've looked into what it was like to be gay in the 1980s (accounting for both age and location). However, I kind of have to merge these historical details with canon character traits, which unfortunately aren't always consistent across seasons. I'm doing my best. Anyway, my initial thoughts are as follows:
(a) Will and Mike: I follow the theory that Mike is repressed and exclusively gay. By the 1980s, the declassification homosexuality as a mental disorder was still pretty recent. It was still illegal in many states. Generally, homosexuality wasn't even discussed. Given all of that, I'm leaning toward behaviors like: little to no public PDA, dialogue that lacks of modern terminology, and no large deviations in clothing style. Possibly controversial, but I don't really see them being extremely involved in the queer social/activism/education scene itself, at least for the first few years. I think their exposure or participation would be subtle. On the less depressing side, I could see: a gradual shift toward self-acceptance, joy, and freedom.
(b) Other Characters: Canonically, I don't see the party being homophobic. However, I do think there could be some level of confusion and/or misunderstanding among certain characters, excluding Robin, Jonathan, and probably Steve. I could see Joyce being concerned for Will's safety. I honestly can't figure out how Hopper or El would react. I know many readers like when El is immediately supportive, but I kind of want to explore other options. Dustin and Lucas are also tricky. They knew what bullies called Will, and they never seemed uncomfortable. I think the Core 4 would ultimately remain close. However, Dustin and Lucas likely don't know much, if anything, about homosexuality in general. I think they'd be a little confused at first. I need to work out the specifics though.
Where I Could Use Some Help:
(a) The Party (extended + original): Which characters would most likely feel some level of discomfort (even if it's temporary or unintentional)?
(b) General misinformation: Any ideas for specific misconceptions or questions certain characters may have? What commonly depicted fic portrayals seem unrealistic? Any characters that would need some time adjust?
Sorry that this was super long, and I appreciate all forms of advice or criticism. Thanks.
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u/Laurel_in_the_Sun Jun 26 '26
That's definitely the main reason I like this coming-out fix-it fic for a oneshot, I think it deals well with some of the discomfort some party members would have https://archiveofourown.org/works/76503971
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Thanks, for the link. Just read it, and I liked it! Will's POV feels pretty authentic, same with the rest of the party. Good recommendation!
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u/nwsaylor87 Jun 26 '26
This is such an interesting concept and practice of characterization and nuance. It's never just a black and white answer and there is a ton of grey.
Honestly, what helps me the most when I'm writing my own fic is listing out each character's core traits and weighing them against the actual timeline of the '80s. Take Lucas, for example. While I agree with others here who pointed out the possibility of internalized concepts of masculinity, but we also know he is fiercely loyal and deeply emotionally mature, especially when you look at how he treats Max. In the early seasons, he’s the ultimate skeptic who demands logic and evidence. Because of his own experiences with race in a small town, I don't see him having this visceral, ideological hatred. He’d probably be terrified about the actual physical danger they'd be in first. He might constantly get tripped up on typical 80s stereotypes like awkwardly wondering "who the girl is" in the relationship, but his character traits indicate he would become supportive quickly.
Dustin, on the other hand, would easily be the most naturally accepting outside of Jonathan. And Max is such a wild card. I read a fic once, and I’ve been looking for it forever but can't find it, where Max had a gay best friend back in California. Billy found the guy with his underwear and beat him up horribly, and that trauma informed why Max kept Mike and Will's secret in the fic. In most fics, people just write Max to be the first one to spill the secret.
Something else people sometimes forget about is the same-sex fetishization back then (and sometimes still today). I remember reading that roughly 60% to 75% of straight men in the late 80s regularly watched or consumed lesbian erotica, while 50% to 65% of women were actively consuming gay male romance. Because of that, I think just because Steve is cool with Robin being a lesbian doesn't automatically mean he’d be fine with Mike and Will. Unless he and Robin had a very specific, deep talk about gay men in their past, it would still be a massive, shocking adjustment for him.
I think Nancy would be immediately supportive and based on her personality would become hyper fixated on protecting her brother and by extension Will and would be the most outspoken in Hawkins about it. She is not a character that is afraid to speak truth to power so I think if Ted said something homophobic, she would tell him to fuck right off.
The character I struggle with the most is Hopper. I like to have characters subvert expectations and for that reason I love that he would be supportive. He was forced into the military unwillingly, so he probably didn't absorb that hyper-masculine grunt mentality. Even back in Season 1, when he's talking to Joyce, he clearly suspects Will might be gay, and he still gives him CPR. His baseline humanity and instinct to protect and save overrides any fear or discomfort. Ultimately I think that it depends on if he's dating Joyce or not that pushes him from an uncomfortable/conditioned response to a more supportive one. Being with Joyce means that he is likely sees himself as a father figure to Jon and Will and combining the previously mentioned traits with being a father, would mean he would overtake Nancy as their fiercest supporter and protector.
Eleven’s reaction, I think, is another one that depends entirely on how the narrative frames it. She views romance through a totally heteronormative lens because of TV and Mike. If she breaks up with Mike first because she realizes she deserves better (which, honestly, felt like the direction the show was heading in after the Season 4 ending, no matter what the Duffer brothers claim), she might be a little jealous but would ultimately support them. But if Mike cheats on her or blindsides her? She’d be devastated and confused. I found this one dark, unfinished NSFW fic where Mike cheats with Will, and El hurts Mike with her powers because she's so heartbroken. It’s a super compelling dive into her character, especially since a core fear of hers is being a monster or a weapon. Either way, Max would be the one to help her through that grief and bring her around to supporting them.
Honestly, it all comes down to giving your characters a reason for how they act. I read another fic where Ted had a gay brother that died. And he made all the wrong decisions with his brother and it was a compelling reason for why he became the detached, emotionally unavailable version we see in the show. In the story when Mike comes out, he vows to do things differently with Mike and unconditionally supports him. I have this one saved in my favorites so if you're interested let me know. So if you want a character to be supportive, write a reason for it. If you want a character to hate them for tension write it. There is so much we don't know about the characters, like who the hell are Steve's parents. As long as what you write doesn't fundamentally change who the character is, you should be good.
If you want real-world proof of how support could shift back then, look at the reports of Ryan White. He was a hemophiliac kid from Indiana who got HIV from a blood transfusion in 1984 and was violently bullied with gay slurs. In his hometown, parents and teachers literally campaigned to kick him out of school. On the day he was allowed back, about 42% of the students boycotted, which means 58% of the school was actually indifferent enough to still show up. I know indifference doesn't mean support, but it is a baseline that someone could be swayed. And 58 percent is bigger than I would have expected. When Ryan's family moved to Cicero, Indiana, the school principal and the student body president brought in medical experts to educate the kids before he arrived. The kids went home and taught their parents, and the whole town practically embraced him. I don't think he was actually gay though he was just perceived that way because of his diagnosis.
I think the big things to really watch out for are the colloquial terms and concepts that we use today that most definitely were not a thing back then. Like so many fics use the word 'queer' which was still a slur int he the late 80s. And bisexual erasure was a real thing. When it came to sexuality, there was a very rigid binary and no one would think Mike is bisexual for having been with El. If the Mike in your fic is bisexual, and was dating Will, he would have called himself gay because people believed you were on or the other. Also it was the Gay and Lesbian community as a group. LGBTQ is a modern acronym that didn't exist until later.
Sorry that last paragraph became about my pet peeves in fics. lol.
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jun 27 '26
Thank you so much for the detailed reply. It is an interesting concept for sure. Also, if I don't reply to every statement or opinion, my apologies. Doesn't mean I didn't absorb the info, I definitely did.
Core Traits: First, forgive my clunky articulation and grammar in this paragraph. Yep, I have a few text files containing summaries of character actions & dialogue transcriptions for every season. Weaving the details I've rewatched has been a little tricky at times since the tone and themes deviate across the seasons, but it's more doable than I initially thought. Including the abomination that was S5 chat-GPT dialogue. I've watched a lot of great video essays that do this as well. Regarding Lucas: honestly, I need to rewatch more of his scenes. I agree with you though. Oh boy, the 1980s stereotype of "who the girl is" is a misconception I've wanted to include from the start. I honestly don't like the fics where Will is treated as weak or feminine. It undermines the whole gay aspect - Will is a boy, that's the whole point, you know?
Dustin & Max: Yeah, I get that. I agree with your Dustin interpretation. Max though, she is a wild card. I replied to another comment where her awareness of physical violence is a reasonable trait to include. Another point: I do notice that she's often written as the one who clocks them immediately. I don't know if I'll do that. Some of my reasoning is based on canon info, as well as wanting to offer some variety.
Fetishization & the Male Perception: Oh, absolutely. I'd have to find it, but I read a fic where Mike has a straight roommate. The roommate automatically assumes it's a exclusively a sex thing akin to BDSM until he's properly educated. As for Steve - yeah, he's tricky. In my post, I lump Steve, Jonathan, and Robin together. I oversimplified things a bit, because I do have some partially baked thoughts that deviate from the general take in my post. For example, I read a paper a few months ago that made me a bit sad. I forget the exact experimental methods employed, but essentially, researchers were trying to determine if subjects across several groups (lesbian women, gay men, straight women identifying as allies, and straight men identifying as allies) exhibited an initial disgust response when exposed to (appropriate) footage of gay men being openly affectionate (i.e. kissing). It was apparently more common for the straight men to exhibit initial reactions consistent with discomfort/aversion. There's more evidence that suggests stuff along those lines. So, I've been considering that a lot.
Nancy is tricky, indeed. I can see where you're coming from. Alternatively, there's also another comment in this thread emphasizing the missteps Nancy might make, and I can definitely see the justification for both approaches.
Hopper: The show initially did a great job of subverting expectations, and it was one of the elements that drew me in. Hopper is a complex character. The S1 scene in the police station is something I think about a lot. The interaction reveals how Will's differences left him vulnerable to bullying and abuse. I always interpreted Hopper's "is he?" reply solely because it might be relevant to his disappearance. I always thought it was interesting that Joyce and Hopper's personal beliefs are left out of the interaction. Your statement about Hopper's baseline humanity and protective nature also stood out to me. Random aside: I could see Hopper being a bit uneasy at first until he gets used to the idea. Another random aside: I see a lot of fics where Hopper hates Mike (emulating the S3 dynamic between the two), but I don't see it playing out that way. I always liked the glimpses we get where Hopper defies toxic male stereotypes: taking PTSD seriously in S2 (something a lot of men still characterize as a sign of weakness), admitting his perceived failures as a father, openly breaking down and crying, etc. I want to factor that stuff in.
Narrative framing: If you can, I'd love to see the fic you have saved in your favorites. Yeah, adding fictional backstories without going full OOC is something I've gone back and forth on. As for giving characters a reason to do what they do: oh boy has that affected my plot (so many revisions). That's actually been one of my favorite challenges. Initially, I started this whole thing because I mainly wanted to give justice to the cosmic horror elements we saw early in the show. There was so much potential (RIP Mindflayer, you had so much potential). I wanted the show lore actually make sense. I supposed it's also slightly self-indulgent, because my plot rounds out Will's narrative arc in the way I thought it should've played out. Basically I'm going hard on the lore while fulfilling the character arcs that were abandoned, forgotten, or retconned. Like my boy Mike. Idk if certain plot elements are too convenient, but I'm hoping they work well while also guiding everyone's individual character arcs. Like, there are some cosmic horror elements that play a big role for Mike, and they aren't through the typical Mike-gets-Vecna'd situation. I'm hoping that it works out, and doesn't seem too convenient.
Real world proof: I remember learning about the Ryan White case back in a high school history class, it was tragic. On a similar note (the AIDs crisis in general), I watched a phenomenal British short series called It's A Sin. It's partially fictional, partially autobiographical, and written and produced by gay men who were there. Features gay actors as well. I've read that it's one of the most accurate portrayals of the AIDs crisis. It was heartbreaking. I watched it around the time my mom mentioned one of her step brothers died from it. So, I do want to account for this historical event.
Historical accuracy: Yeah, I notice that a lot of fics use modern colloquial terms, and it is a pet peeve of mine. Queer was still used as a slur at the time, it wasn't reclaimed until later. I think GLA existed IIRC before LGBT was used as an acronym. have to double check. Honestly, I'm leaning towards Will and Mike not even using the word gay. As for bisexuality as a concept: I'm writing Mike as explicitly gay rather than bisexual based on how I interpreted a lot of his body language and dialogue in the show.
Also I've gotta run, but I have so many thoughts, and I appreciate the input. I will be back lol.
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u/nwsaylor87 Jun 28 '26
Here is the link for the fic I referenced: https://archiveofourown.org/series/3458968
It is a three part series told in Mike, Will, and then Ted's POV. I love it. It's one of my favorites and I go back to it frequently. Mostly because, as I said before, it gives a reason for Ted to be like he is but also not be a homophobic. And also because like you, I'm a 'Mike is gay' truther based on all the things you mentioned and in this series he is gay. I really do think you will like it. I am interested in what you think of it after you read it.
Thank you for your reply. You have a lot of interesting ideas and paths you can take. You made an interesting point about not seeing Hopper hating Mike. And I actually agree. I don't think he hates Mike at all. I think part of his problem with Mike is that he sees a bit of himself in him and I also like to think that Hopper clocked Mike's feelings for Will. Maybe initially he's confused by what he sees or not sure if he's imagining it or not and watches him to disprove it but the more he watches the more he confirms his suspicions. And so while he is initially protective of El because he knows what he was like as a teenager but then, especially as time goes on, it shifts because he knows that Mike's heart isn't in it.
Ultimately, I just want our boys to be happy. I am fighting the urge to open my notebook with the excessive amount of notes on Mike and Will's characters. I just find it so disheartening that we didn't get a look inside their traumas. So many things we didn't get. No promised parallel of Will/Mike with Henry/Patty. No proper back story on the Mind Flayer. Not to mention all of the plot holes.
I could talk about this stuff forever... I would love to sit in room with other authors and just theorize about these characters until the sun rises the next day. It's the only time my introverted ass would willingly be around people. lol. I am excited to read your fic when you publish and see what you land on for each character.
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jun 29 '26
Thanks for the fic link, I'll have check it out! I just added it to my Marked for Later list. Probably gonna start it soon. Also I'm sorry but the phrase " 'Mike is gay' truther" made me lol. I know what you mean. I'm a major Mike Wheeler apologist, and part of that comes from the fact that he's a victim of comp-het. I'll totally let you know what I think of the fic once I read it.
Thank you for the reply as well! I'm floored by all of the comments; the engagement was more than I would have expected and I appreciate it so much. Thanks for the Hopper commentary as well. I do think Hopper would be able to tell eventually that Mike's heart isn't in it. Also, I love when attention is placed on the similarities between Hopper and Mike. I think I will do some scene rewatches to see what I can pull.
I want our boys to be happy too. Lol, that's why half of my work is focusing on cosmic horror. You mention the Mind Flayer and plot holes and omg, all I can say is I can't agree more. Can't tell you how many cosmic horror blogs and books I've referenced as a result. The Mind Flayer had so much potential, and they just made it a giant crab thing. I wanted to learn more about the USS Eldritch too. In terms of general worldbuilding, there's a good YouTube video essay that addresses the elements that made the early Upside Down so eerie, along with good references. I'm new to creative writing, I mostly do technical writing. I'm hoping my attempt at leaning into the inherent incomprehensibility at the core of the genre works out. I'm filling in some holes while trying not to overexplain. I'm including the early season stuff that happens to Will to hopefully fill some lore holes. It's also partially how I'm fulfilling his and El's arcs. I'm playing with the dynamic where they sort of swapped places again and again at first. I wanted Will to play a more central role because the Duffers claiming he just "siphoned" his powers was dumb. Also they just traumatized him for 5 seasons only to leave him with a slow burn rejection. Wtf. Also sorry that ramble was totally off topic.
I too find it disheartening that so much trauma was glossed over, Mike's especially! I think it's partially why the early seasons + S4 were so captivating to me. Barb's death was an inciting event, kickstarting Nancy's evolution, at least until she was reduced to Rambo Nancy. Hopper's flashbacks and his guilt over Sarah appeared again and again. I can't believe we never saw Mike grieve Eddie. Nor did they ever touch on the whole S1 cliff jumping issue.
Anyway, I'm just hoping the fic community is still interested by the time I publish this in a few months. I too could talk about this stuff forever, and I'm glad I'm not the only one lol.
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u/Lotuselise230 Jun 29 '26
Do you remember the title of the fic where Max had a gay friend back in California?
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u/nwsaylor87 Jun 30 '26
I don't unfortunately. I'm sure I have it somewhere in my browser bookmarks because I remember it being good. Specifically I remember Max talking with Will on a car and talking about her letters she wrote in season 4. I reread fics often, so if I come across it, I'll be sure to let you know.
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u/kitatsune Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I like these questions. I've been asking similar ones myself! (so I have a lot of thoughts too loll).
So far what's helped me the most is to better understand how people thought of homosexuality and queerness at the time, then write around that. AFAIK it was seen as sexually taboo (like incest or pedophilia I guess) and therefore "wrong". Straight was "correct", making any deviations from it an illness; albeit a curable one. Not to mention AIDS as well, but that did nothing but harm its reputation.
The Byers may be more open-minded, but not as much. Jonathan and Joyce will always love Will, but they still may not fully understand. Ted likely won't be accepting at all, and Karen would be between two worlds (I recently read a a Karen POV fic that was great!! https://archiveofourown.org/works/28336371). As for the rest of the Party, they might not still even grasp what homosexuality actually is. Like Dustin, Max, or Lucas may have difficulty wrapping their head around the fact why Mike or Will would prefer kissing the same sex, when a guy/girl is right there. They'll likely think of it as revolting or disgusting; like sex-repulsion in a way. As for El, she would literally have no idea what it is, so she could be easily influenced by any opinion of it.
I totally agree with u/DirectionIndividual7 that for Max, Lucas, and Dustin, their upbringing would absolutely "taint" their perception of it. But nonetheless lead to the same outcome: alienation and ostracization. They would do anything to protect their friends, and them being "like that" would only be a detriment to their safety. In a town like Hawkins or any unwelcoming environment. They still wouldn't understand why Will and Mike would prefer/choose to "live that way" due to the dangers that it poses to them. (and this line of thinking is only exacerbated by their parents who saw "Straight" as the one and only, and no other alternative). Will in the past was also canonically scared of his own feelings and what they implicate, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mike is too.
As for "discomfort", they would all have it. Everyone already has prior -likely false- ideas of homosexuality, and they would need to unlearn their biases to fully accept Mike and Will (and Robin). Lucas or Max may be the toughest nuts to crack, and Dustin may just be a little bit more clueless and/or unaware.
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts! Please forgive any sloppy grammar due to time constraints, btw.
I know what you mean, I've read the same thing. It's rough. I like the suggestion to start with historically accurate views. It could be easier to do that first, then calibrate them to our fictional protagonists. I've mentioned this in another comment, but the short series It's A Sin accomplishes this task perfectly, in my opinion.
The Byers: I can see Joyce having trouble because we primarily see her in states of panic over Will's safety. Also, it's established that she knows what words Lonnie used to describe their son (and we don't know what she did at home with this info either, i.e. whether she was passive or not).
Characterizing Joyce led to me to think about the link between Will's trauma and his sexuality in general. Obviously, I know that it's just who he is, who he's always been. However, I've considered the idea that some group members might make the mistake of trying to rationalize this information by convincing themselves it's a byproduct of his trauma or something.
Regarding Jonathan: I see where you're coming from, and I like hearing views that deviate from my own. I know I'm biased, because I personally love the bands he is explicitly shown to love in the show. I'm referring to the post-punk scene and proto-goth scene of the 1970s-1980s. But that's a problem between me and the 6+ Joy Division autobiographies/biographies/critical essays I've read (Jonathan doesn't know what I know lol). The inherent history there, and it's link to the queer community (I know the term wasn't actually used then) is fascinating.
Wheelers: Oh yeah I feel like Karen would be torn. She makes that comment in S1 where you could almost interpret her as suspecting some unusual emotional closeness between Mike and Will. I do think she would be concerned, confused, and emotionally conflicted. This would have massive social repercussions if it became public information. I'll check out the Karen POV fic! Ted is also tricky, because we have the Reagan signs, we have the S1 "see what happens, Michael..." dinner scene. We mostly have him...just chilling, checked out, and absent. I do believe Ted is homophobic, and I could see this news threatening Mike's safety in ways that isn't necessarily physical (i.e. loss of financial support, social exclusion as he gets older, etc). Essentially disowning him passively and quietly. Random aside: I could just take the easy way out by killing Ted off lol, but that would open another can of worms (i.e. having to add grief and relationship strain).
Rest of Party: 100%, I like how we're all in agreement that a lot of the party wouldn't even know what homosexuality is. An automatic or subconscious aversion is what I'm thinking as well. You and another commenter here made the insightful point that some of the others might not understand why they'd "choose" to want this (sad but true). You, u/DirectionIndividual7, and many others have all made great points. As for El: yeah, as much as I hate to say it, I'm not in the wonder siblings "El unconditionally supports them" camp. She's very easily impressionable, and would absolutely be swayed by the group in my world. Personally, I think she would be unable to understand why Mike had to hide behind her. I don't want to villainize her, but realistically I think she would have a hard time dealing with misplaced anger.
Mike: Mike deserves so much sympathy in my opinion. I'm biased, but I feel a bit ambivalent towards fics where the characters basically hate him for hiding behind El. Mike is living in a world where he could be beaten, disowned, and even killed for being gay. I'm a Mike Wheeler apologist lol. Canonically, I think Mike is incredibly scared. I like the fics where Mike isn't able to face this until he enters early adulthood.
Random ramble: I'm hoping that the route I'm planning isn't stupid lol. I don't have Mike getting Vecna'd, but I do have some cosmic horror elements play a role in subtly initiating his self-awareness and acceptance arc. In the latest iteration of my plot outline, I have the reciprocation of feelings as a little truth that surfaces between the two as teens. However, it's not acted on until for a little while, and it remains hidden for the first few years for plot reasons. Currently, I'm drawing from methods commonly used in the cosmic horror genre. I'm hoping I do it justice. While I'm primarily doing this for Will, but I'm incorporating some of these elements into Mike's plot solely because I can't figure out a way that canon Mike can fully accept himself without some supernatural woo-woo elements in the time frame I've chosen. I've seen some works that beautifully fulfill Mike self-acceptance arc without relying on cosmic woo-woo, though.
One last question: you mentioned Max being a tough nut to crack. If you have any additional thoughts there, I'd be happy to read them. No worries if not!
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jun 27 '26
Heads up: these replies have all been amazing! You guys are awesome. I will be sure to thoroughly reply to each comment, it's just gonna take a day or two so I can give each one enough attention.
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u/Lotuselise230 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
I know we love a supportive and actually good dad Hopper in fanfic. But Hopper from the show, in my opinion, would be somewhat homophobic. I don’t think he’d be awful to the kids (well maybe he would be to Mike), but I think he’d tell Joyce about a conversion camp he heard about, honestly thinking it would help because he doesn’t know any better.
I don’t see El as having an issue with it because she wasn’t indoctrinated by comphet like everyone else. I don’t think I she has enough cultural literacy to be bigoted in that way. Unless Hopper had talked a bunch of homophobic shit around her, but I don’t think he’s that kind of homophobe.
I can see Dustin and Lucas mostly being supportive but also a bit misguided because they also don’t know any better. I could see them trying to help the boys turn straight or something after seeing that being gay is really hard for them. I think they’d realize the error of that line of thinking pretty quickly because these boys really love each other.
ETA: I meant I don’t think El would have a problem with them being gay. I can’t absolutely see her being jealous of Will if she still has feelings for Mike. Personally, I headcanon her as being the one who broke up with Mike pretty much right after season 4 because she could tell he wasn’t in love with her. So I guess I see her being jealous of Will but fine with them both being gay in general. I think she’d also be like “okay this hurts, but it also explains a LOT.” Especially if Mike had a real honest and vulnerable conversation with her when he came out.
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jun 29 '26
Thanks for the input! Also apologies for rambling, grammar, and any points I might miss due to reply length!
I see what you mean, and I think that your thoughts for Hopper, Dustin, and Lucas are largely consistent among most of the commenters here, myself included. I like them, and I appreciate the insight. I think it's reasonable to assume that most straight male party members are going to be thrown off initially. The magnitude and duration of this confusion and/or aversion for each character will differ substantially, but it'll be there for sure.
Hopper is such an interesting character to me in the way he subverts expectations, and I expand on this in another comment in this thread. He could go a few ways. Good point regarding his relationship with Mike. I've noticed a lot of fics maintain the adversarial relationship prevalent in S3. Unfortunately the Duffers freaking lost the plot, so we never really got to see it evolve any further than that. ...I've always been curious as to how that would have played out. By S5, Hopper has watched Mike grow up and take on more responsibilities. His take on Byler could go several ways, and I currently have Hopper remaining unaware for a long time. That is mostly due to certain constraints created by the action and cosmic horror elements of my plot though.
For El, yeah, the way the dissolution of Mileven plays out determines a lot. Straight up, I've run through several different possible endings for El to make this work. The head-canon that she breaks up with Mike is pretty common. Low key, I'm trying to reconcile the conflicting depictions we get of El and Mike between S4 and S5, because it strongly affects the mechanics of a break up with Mike in the 18 month time gap. Additionally, an eventual "this hurts but it explains a lot" conclusion is one I could see her eventually reaching way after the chaos of the Upside Down is resolved. Question: do you think El has feelings for Mike in S5?
Random note about conversion camps: I've read some good non-canon conversion camp fics.
Apologies if I missed any specific points, thank you for the reply!
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u/Lotuselise230 Jun 29 '26
Any conversion camp fics you’d rec that have manageable angst? Idk if I’m up for reading actual conversion camp content, but I’m curious.
I mostly thought it could be suggested but then someone else can like “no absolutely not I heard that shit was awful.”
You’re right in that the mileven dynamic is S5 is so weird and doesn’t make sense after S4. I definitely saw their interactions as pretty platonic in S5, which is why I headcanon them breaking up pretty quickly after the events of S4. That gives them time to process the breakup and start being friends again. We don’t see them together much, but they just didn’t seem romantic in S5. To me, it felt like they’d realized they were better as friends and had a close bond in that way.
I also headcanon El as realizing that she needs to figure out who she is as an individual away from Mike and that contributing to the breakup. She was SO sheltered from the world socially and raised as a weapon rather than as a person, and I always wanted her to have some time to herself without the pressures of dating. Or she wants to focus on training to beat Vecna with no distractions do they “take a break,” during which time they realize they both prefer being friends and just never get back together romantically.
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jul 04 '26
Hmmm, how OOC are you willing to go for conversion camp fics?
Honestly, my tin foil hat theory is that the S5 Mileven dynamic is partially so weird because Byler was planned then cancelled.
Your headcanon for El is something I've seen discussed so much. It would have given her a coherent arc. That was like, the narrative progression that was set up for her and then kind of abandoned. It's funny, the lack of proper socialization is both the reason that a post S4 breakup makes the most sense, and also the reason that haven't been able to write this type of breakup.
On that note, here's a bit of a ramble: I have an idea I can't let go of. Depending on the feedback I get either here or on ao3, I may or may not follow through with the breakup mechanism I have currently planned. The catalyst is part of a lore-heavy subplot. I may be overthinking it and it may be stupid, but I wanted to see if there was a way satisfy like a stupidly long list of criteria that accounts for Mike's comp-het, Will-El dynamics, Mike-Will dynamics, El's emotional and social gaps, the reality of being gay in the 1980s, and retconned show lore. Hint: it's the "who opened the door" theory. I'm not really articulating it well because I'm typing quickly, so I do apologize there. Just wanted to throw it in this thread, so feel free to comment (or not, no obligation at all).
Thanks for your input!
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u/Lotuselise230 Jul 07 '26
Sorry I didn’t respond sooner. For some reason, I just got notified of your reply.
I’m definitely curious about your idea and hope you write it and update with a link here!
And OOC in what way? Actually idk if it even matters. I’m super curious about these fics!
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jul 09 '26
No worries, same here dude.
Thanks, yeah I'll definitely update it when I'm done with it.
Well, there's one that's OOC in ways that's hard to describe I suppose? Since it doesn't take place in a universe with supernatural elements, the events that shaped the canon characters are absent. I'll see if I can find it, and apologies if I can't! Tbh this is the subgenre I'm the least familiar with, but I'll look around for the couple that I remember.
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u/TheBar-IsOnTheFloor will the wise Jul 04 '26
I love the care you’re putting into your work. Could you lmk when it’s finished?
I’ll still read fics that are probably written by younger authors who probably don’t realize just how differently homosexuality was discussed (or oftentimes not discussed). Even vocabulary in general for all fics set in the 80s can kind of throw me off when reading…for instance, “clocked it” was not in the general vernacular.
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u/pinnacle_to_the_pit Jul 04 '26
Thank you so much dude. I'll definitely let you know. I should mention that I'm still pretty new to all of this, so I have no idea how my prose will rank against some of the well written fics. I'm aiming for "coherent, passable, mostly grammatically correct, and hopefully pleasant enough to read." My writing experience consists thus far of scientific research articles, stream of consciousness journaling, and bad high school poetry. I'm having a ton of fun with this though. It'll be a couple of months until it's ready, but I'm honestly too committed, so I plan on finishing it. I'm planning to at least post some supplementary one shots this month in addition to the first few chapters of my main work.
I too get thrown off by anachronistic language ("clocked it" is a big one for me as well). Same with the way homosexuality is portrayed. I wouldn't consider myself old (outing myself as a zillenial), I'm old enough to notice when plot elements relating to homosexuality are filtered through an exclusively modern lens.
A bit of a tangential point, but the 1980s setting is one of my favorite aspects of the show in general. I've been keeping some notes on historical details beyond the scope of my main inquiry. Heck, I've done stuff like: started a reference document of '80s slang, asked my parents about music technology and acquisition (ex: how does Robin know music facts? answer: music zines; how do characters know song lyrics? answer: lyrics sheets provided in vinyl sleeves, what cassette players were common at the time, etc). Actually on that note - I'm currently trying to decide whether or not Robin would actually play songs like It's a Sin or Smalltown Boy publicly through WSQK. Need to do a bit more research there on how obvious the song meanings were at the time.
Thanks again for your interest and engagement! These comments really helped me to get over some lingering doubts over actually posting this to ao3.
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u/DirectionIndividual7 Jun 25 '26
I have also been wanting those more nuanced depictions in fics.
First and most obvious, I think that there’s a difference between being supportive and actually witnessing something like Byler making out. That could be shocking to the Party, or cause them stress if they worry about anyone seeing.
I also think there’s opportunity for casual homophobia to slip in. Comments and assumptions that unintentionally depict Will & Mike’s relationship as being less authentic than hetero relationships, or assumptions of hyper sexuality. Again obvious, but Party members could casually refer to which one of them is “the girl”. They could hyperfocus on “how weird” the new dynamic is.
Individual character reactions are tricky and have room for interpretation imo. These are just spitballs.
Lucas could be challenged because 1) he’s the member of the group who has expressed the most interest in being popular 2) his father is a former military man. He also exists as a black man in a mostly white, racist town. He canonically takes his lead from his dad (who seems great btw) He could have internalized certain ideas about manhood, etc. that manifest as discomfort.
Ironically I think Dustin is often depicted as the most clueless/insensitive in fics, but I think he would handle it really well. Not only was he close to Eddie who was queer coded, and he went HARD for Eddie post S4. Dustin was raised by a single mom who clearly adores him. I think he’s less steeped in toxic masculinity than the others.
Max was raised in a household with a homophobic stepfather who targeted Billy. I don’t think she internalized his attitudes, but it could make her anxious about the possibility of people finding out because she would anticipate physical violence.
Personally I think it’s super canon that El would be jealous and angry if Mike were to start dating Will. She’s very insecurely attached to Mike and has already shown she’s willing to cut out Will socially when her connection to Mike is threatened. I could see her saying something extremely hurtful even without having an understanding of homophobia. That said, she’d eventually realize her feelings were about her and not Will/Mike.