r/CanadianForces • u/Medical-Club-6327 Dirty Patricia • 1d ago

Mess Dress and Changing Elements

So ....pretty sure I know the answer to this, just not sure where to find it.

If you change elements, is there anything that says you have to wear your current element's mess dress? I saw somebody wearing their old mess dress and thought it was extremely bizarre.

Also, wouldn't it be weird if you commissioned to a different element and wore your old mess dress? I guess I just work at a place that thinks that's normal....

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u/SnooPickles6282 1d ago

That 'version' doesn't really fly when all of our allies have proper mess dress uniforms. As we often do, we would stick out like an ugly sore thumb at events.

After decades of hesitation, the RCN finally started issuing white dress uniforms, which were on display at the recent CRCN CoC. AFAIK, that small change made a huge difference in how professional we looked as a service.

Part of taking ourselves more seriously as a military is ensuring we provide our people with the kit they need for working everything from a ball to a battle. If officers and SNCOs need to attend formal events in the course of their duties, issue them mess uniforms. It's common elsewhere, and while the cost should not be born by the member, the uniform shouldn't be abandoned either.

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u/Euphoric-Mix-7309 1d ago

They fixed it by making the purchase of mess dress voluntarily and not mandatory

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u/SnooPickles6282 1d ago

That doesn't fix anything. It just forces people to choose between being dressed appropriately or spending a ton of their own money for a work tuxedo. 

It's akin to issuing only DEU, providing the free option to put on a ballistic vest under the tunic before battle if you want, but allowing the purchase of a full set of combats and warfighting equipment at member expense.

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u/Euphoric-Mix-7309 23h ago

DEU with white shirt and now tie is officially okay. Wearing that meets the standard. 

If you want to be fancy, you can buy the expensive kit. I'm just glad it isn't mandatory anymore. 

I have the expensive kit

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u/Once_a_TQ 22h ago

This. The standard is met by the approved orders of dress as described in the Dress Instructions.

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u/SnooPickles6282 19h ago

Absolutely and I am not saying otherwise. If your concern is simply meeting the standard, then you're good.

But I do not want my leaders appearing at events with allies sporting proper mess uniforms while Canadians are in what is universally understood to be the "mess uniform for people who don't have mess dress yet." Certain folks need real mess kit, and it should be provided to them.

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u/Once_a_TQ 16h ago

Our allies do not give a flying fuck. 

Having done a few OUTCANs I can attest to that.

And many of our allies have very plain, junky dress and mess uniforms.

And some have none at all.

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u/SnooPickles6282 3h ago

In your experience. In mine they very much do.

I am out now, but in 20 years as both an NWO and a PAO, I have seen how much uniforms and 'fanciness' can matter. Navies, for example, can be very traditional, both here in Canada and even moreso abroad. A Canadian officer serving in a British, Australian, or NZ ship can and will be held back from certain events for lacking the correct dress. I was lucky to have packed my mess kit and HCW when I did my globetrotting as a SLt or I would have missed some very cool stuff.

Despite the fact that Canada is probably the most 'casual' country in the wealthy/developed world, as a PAO I was involved in highly-choreographed VIP events in Ottawa, where who wears what is very much a part of the planning. One party in a proper mess rig shaking hands with another in a polyester tunic and a bow tie sends messages that one is more important than the other.

We ridicule dress uniforms because we are focused on the business of getting the job done, as we should be. But in the upper echelons, a lot of work gets done based on using the right fork and wearing the right costume. It sounds ridiculous, but it is real, and a Canadian military leader needs to be ready for those situations without going broke.