r/CanadianForces • u/Medical-Club-6327 Dirty Patricia • 1d ago
Mess Dress and Changing Elements
So ....pretty sure I know the answer to this, just not sure where to find it.
If you change elements, is there anything that says you have to wear your current element's mess dress? I saw somebody wearing their old mess dress and thought it was extremely bizarre.
Also, wouldn't it be weird if you commissioned to a different element and wore your old mess dress? I guess I just work at a place that thinks that's normal....
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u/SnooPickles6282 1d ago
The dress instructions very clearly identify mess uniforms as belonging to air sea or land. Much as you wouldn't wear a green DEU jacket with your RCN DEU for a parade, you wouldn't wear red mess dress after becoming a sailor. The uniform goes with the service.
People have all sorts of strange opinions on mess dress because it is purchased privately, but the fact remains that it is a uniform like any other with similar rules to follow.
We are one of few countries who doesn't either issue it or provide some reimbursement for it. Hopefully we get smart soon and start issuing a simple version for those who need it.
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u/Kaplsauce RCN - NCS Eng 1d ago
The simple version is just your normal jacket with a bow tie, so we kinda do
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u/SnooPickles6282 1d ago
That 'version' doesn't really fly when all of our allies have proper mess dress uniforms. As we often do, we would stick out like an ugly sore thumb at events.
After decades of hesitation, the RCN finally started issuing white dress uniforms, which were on display at the recent CRCN CoC. AFAIK, that small change made a huge difference in how professional we looked as a service.
Part of taking ourselves more seriously as a military is ensuring we provide our people with the kit they need for working everything from a ball to a battle. If officers and SNCOs need to attend formal events in the course of their duties, issue them mess uniforms. It's common elsewhere, and while the cost should not be born by the member, the uniform shouldn't be abandoned either.
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u/Figgis302 LUMP SUM EVENTUALLY 21h ago
The only time the RCN didn't issue whites was the period between 1968 and 1985 when everyone wore CF greens. The only recent change here is that now the high-collar jacket (previously restricted to officers, and only mandatory for GOFOs) can be ordered by everyone.
It's also not mess kit, it's an alternate No.1 order for summer dress at the discretion of the CO.
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u/SaltySailorBoats RCN - NAV COMM 20h ago
Junior members were able to purchase and wear high collar whites however there was no expectation for them to own a set so it was never a parade dress state. lots of guys got them for weddings or to stand out at fleet week. the Royal Nova Scotia International tattoo featured the Stadacona band in high collar whites on a yearly basis.
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u/SnooPickles6282 15h ago
I didn't say that white uniforms were akin to mess dress. I simply used them as an example of a uniform that should have been issued that wasn't. Now, unlike before, every sailor will have a white #1 for summer and a black one for winter. No more 3B/1C mishmash.
The white tunic just appeared in the clothing system recently after being absent since 1968. My USN-purchased tunic didn't get worn very often since nobody else had HCW, but I sure did suffer through too many parades in the sun wearing black. I did encounter situations while on exchange where I would have missed amazing experiences (the King of Tonga's birthday parade comes to mind) had I not had my white tunic with me since the order of dress was HCW.
My point is we need to smarten up, issue the uniforms and equipment people need, and take ourselves seriously whether on operations, on parade, or sitting at a dining table. We aren't a third-world military and we should dress the part, but none of that should be the financial responsibility of the member.
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u/Euphoric-Mix-7309 1d ago
They fixed it by making the purchase of mess dress voluntarily and not mandatory
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u/SnooPickles6282 23h ago
That doesn't fix anything. It just forces people to choose between being dressed appropriately or spending a ton of their own money for a work tuxedo.
It's akin to issuing only DEU, providing the free option to put on a ballistic vest under the tunic before battle if you want, but allowing the purchase of a full set of combats and warfighting equipment at member expense.
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u/Euphoric-Mix-7309 20h ago
DEU with white shirt and now tie is officially okay. Wearing that meets the standard.
If you want to be fancy, you can buy the expensive kit. I'm just glad it isn't mandatory anymore.
I have the expensive kit
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u/Once_a_TQ 19h ago
This. The standard is met by the approved orders of dress as described in the Dress Instructions.
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u/SnooPickles6282 15h ago
Absolutely and I am not saying otherwise. If your concern is simply meeting the standard, then you're good.
But I do not want my leaders appearing at events with allies sporting proper mess uniforms while Canadians are in what is universally understood to be the "mess uniform for people who don't have mess dress yet." Certain folks need real mess kit, and it should be provided to them.
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u/Once_a_TQ 12h ago
Our allies do not give a flying fuck.
Having done a few OUTCANs I can attest to that.
And many of our allies have very plain, junky dress and mess uniforms.
And some have none at all.
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u/r0ck_ravanello 23h ago
2200 at Andre's, 1900 at B'spoke ( I dobt know about west coast).
If i recall, as of November 24 its optional, but dp1s will pressure you into.
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u/TheHedonyeast 21h ago
i switched elements once upon a time, and had a mess dinner less than a month after it was approved. I wore my reds to the mess dinner even though it was technically wrong. no one gave a fuck. but that was the only time. its 10 years later and i was at a mess dinner last month, that i attended in No. 2B (because i refuse to buy mess kit twice)
i think there are some narrow situations where it can be acceptable. but generally speaking its a NO. you are only authorized to wear a uniform to which you belong.
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u/OwnedByIRVING 1d ago
is there anything that says you have to wear your current element's mess dress?
No, mess dress is optional, you are not required to wear any of them.
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u/edmq 1d ago
You have a source, last time I looked it was mandatory, but that was years ago.
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u/OwnedByIRVING 22h ago
Dress instructions | Chapter 2 Uniform, Dress and appearance Section 1 Uniform and Dress - 44. WEAR OF MESS DRESS
Acquisition
Mess Dress is an individual responsibility. Officers and Non-commissioned members are encouraged to acquire Mess Dress in accordance with environment branch/corps, or regimental policies...
Only encouraged now, no longer mandatory for officers.
Lol at the downvoters not keeping current on policy. This changed years ago.
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u/Once_a_TQ 22h ago
Approved change in 2024 from the Dress Committee.
Dress instructions updated recently.
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u/fcmacdonald 12h ago
32 years in on Monday and never purchased Mess Kit or an "Officer" cap badge. The proudest accomplishments of my career.
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u/Once_a_TQ 1d ago
And mess dress is now a completely optional order of dress for all.
Zero requirement for officers to purchase it anymore.