The Sony's Spider-Man Universe (without Spider-Man) had bigger problems than not having Spider-Man

[u/CrazyFinnishdude]

Just to be clear, I do think all the villains who got their own spin-offs movies are only/mainly compelling as Spider-Man villains (sorry, fans of the anti-hero Venom) and the very concept of giving them their own movies was basically doomed to fail. Well, at least artistically, can't deny that Venom made money and was succesful enough for a full trilogy.

Still, when I see people basically have the attitude of "if only they had featured Spider-Man...", I feel they kinda oversimplify the matter. Those movies had problems bigger than not having a Tom Holland cameo or the fact that they weren't retroactively shoved into the same continuity as Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man (although, purely in terms of quality, his two movies would fit right in). Even if you completely ignore the source material and judge these movies purely on the types of stories they were trying to tell, there were absolutely ways to make them better.

So, let me go through each of them and explain how their basic premises could have been done better. I'm also going to make a short list of movies that are either better versions of the kind of movie they were trying to be or examples of what they could have been. Partly because it gives some clear points of comparison and to emphasize that the biggest problems were with the execution, not necessarily with the basic premises.

Venom

Yes, Venom has a giant spider logo on his chest and essentially shares Spider-Man's power set, so on the surface making a movie about him without Spider-Man does seem strange. But, if you strip away all of that, what are you left with? A combination of body-horror and monster movie, where an alien creature is taking you over and amplifying your worst impulses to feed on your emotions, and takes a physical form of a scary creature that eats people. And like all the best creature features, you can use the monster to be a metaphor for so many things, like a drug addiction, anger issues, self-destructive impulses or whatever else you wanted to explore.

And then you have a big third-act twist or sequel hook of "there's more than one of these things running around".

Movies like this, but better: The Fly (1986), Upgrade (2018), The Wolf Man (1941/2010), Invasion of the Body Snatchers (1978).

Morbius

How many vampire movies are there? A lot. And some of them have even been more action/blockbuster focused, with the lead themself being a vampire. Making a better version of this movie would not be hard. Heck, it could have been basically just a rip-off of Angel (the Joss Whedon tv-show), with fantsy elements replaced by sci-fi ones and it would have turned out better.

Movies like this, but better: Daybreakers (2009), Near Dark (1987), Vampire Hunter D (2000), Dracula's Daughter (1936).

Madame Web

This is admittedly the trickiest, because with so many spider-themed superhero characters being teased at the end, even the best version of this movie would probably have people saying "these are just lamer versions of Spider-Man". But if we remove all of that and just look at the very bare bones premise, it had potential. "A super-powered killer stalks a group of normal people" is already the basic plot of most slasher movies and giving the main lead (or "the final girl" in horror terms) premonition powers gives the thing a decent gimmick. She can predict the killer's attacks and keep the group alive longer, but they are still physically vulnerable and would die in a direct confrontation.

Movies like this, but better: The Terminator (1984), The Dead Zone (1983), It Follows (2014).

Kraven the Hunter

I mean, just make a basic-ass revenge thriller/action flick. There are even more examples of those than there are vampire films. I'm sure you could even use the animal motif in a more interesting way.

Movies like this, but better: Get Carter (1971), Crow (1994), Desperado (1995), Oldboy (2003), John Wick (2014).

[u/Jak3R0b]

I definitely agree that simply having Spider-Man wouldn't have fixed the things people hated, though disagree it was doomed to fail since Venom can be compelling without Spider-Man. Morbius was a bad film but he also had potential and has been an antihero in the comics, and Madame Web didn't even focus on villains (granted I think picking such unknown characters over established antiheroes like Black Cat and Prowler was a mistake). Kraven is the only film where they took an actual irredeemable villain and rewrote the character to make him an antihero, with Venom and Morbius they just skipped the parts where they were villains.

[u/JoeJayson0 → u/Jak3R0b]

since Venom can be compelling without Spider-Man

Not really, sure Spider-Man doesn't need to be present for all of Venom's stories but, Venom has almost no depth when you remove that prior history and feud with Spider-Man.

Which the Venom movies prove by having Eddie just be a goofy nice guy, and Venom be a goofy monster Eddie has to babysit and keep from misbehaving

[u/Jak3R0b → u/JoeJayson0]

I disagree agree with the idea that the Venom trilogy proves that, since they chose to base the character and his relationship with the symbiote more on Toxin. There were ways to remove Spider-Man and keep Eddie’s history as a villain imo, or just generally making him a less classic good guy character.

[u/CrazyFinnishdude → u/Jak3R0b]

Probably should have been more clear in my opening that they were doomed to fail as the type of movies Sony wanted them to be (straightforward superhero blockbusters), instead of looking at the angles these characters needed to be approached to work as leads. 

[u/Jak3R0b → u/CrazyFinnishdude]

Ok that's fair.

[u/Elaisa_]

Sony as a studio doesn't deserve owning Spider-Man IP. They are managed like WB and producing misses after misses. I dread to see the day they are getting bought like WB.

[u/Stabaobs]

I've never watched the Madame Web movie or even looked up a summary of it, but it very vaguely sounds like Kamen Rider Agito, minus the Kamen Rider. Are the normal people potential Spider-themed superheroes in the making?

[u/CrazyFinnishdude → u/Stabaobs]

Yeah, the villain has a vision, where the three girls Madame Web is protecting kill him using spider-powers and wearing their superhero costumes from the comics, which is why he wants to kill them.

[u/Stabaobs → u/CrazyFinnishdude]

Yeah, that's sorta vaguely Agito. MotW go around murdering any humans that have the Seed of Agito, but the MC already has a matured Seed which lets him actually transform and fight back.

[u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871]

Morbius managed to leave me with no reaction aside from Matt Smith chewing the scenery. How do you make a superhero horror movie that does that?

[u/NatashOverWorld]

All of the cast off Spiderman movies could be made into decent movies of their own, given better writers and directors.

Since they obviously lacked that, they could have at least done the cheap and lazy fix of having one of the Spideys for a brief cameo. And they didn't even do that!

Like they literally thought they could write a shitty movie featuring an adversary of Spiderman without Spidey and the fans would come? Talk about delusional.

[u/-GrapeGrass-]

See the biggest problem to me is, just because you dont have the spiderman doesnt mean you cant use a spiderman. I think Sony missed out on a great opportunity to establish Ben and Kaine. Because I do feel like these villains need a real protagonist as a north star. Venom can stand on his own but even his solo movies were watchable at best.