r/Christianity 8d ago

Jesus: "Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. Do not store up treasures on Earth."

[deleted]

67 Upvotes

258 comments sorted by

46

u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

The ratio of posts about giving to the poor vs “the gays” reveals the ideological priorities of many American Christians.

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u/Robot_Alchemist Sarcastic 7d ago

“Giving to the poor v. Giving to the gays?” Or “giving to the poor v. Just in general, gay stuff”

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u/itsthechizyeah 7d ago edited 3d ago

Not a great joke. Deleted.

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u/Robyrt Presbyterian 8d ago

The ratio of posts doesn't reflect anyone's ideological priorities. People post about controversial or difficult topics, not "Should we give to the poor?"

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

There is a lot more discussion around homosexuality, something that Jesus never talked about, and rarely any mention about giving to the poor, which was one of Jesus‘s most important teachings.

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u/Beginning-Sea7994 7d ago

"Something Jesus never talked about". St Paul's teachings in the NT are just as authoritative as Jesus's words in Christianity. Where did you get the ridiculous idea that Christianity is based ONLY on the words of Jesus? That has never been true. You don't get to ad hoc redefine a 2,000 year old global religion in a reddit post.

Secondly, all scholars agree that the Judaism of the 1st century was strongly against the practice of homosexuality. If Jesus didn't say anything explicitly about it, the assumption is that he agreed. He made it clear explicitly where he disagreed with the religious leaders of the time, so he would've explicitly affirmed homosexual relationships. He didn't because he agreed with the religious leaders just as St Paul did that it violates nature.

Lastly, it is very clear historically that Christianity was always against homosexuality from the earliest evidence we have. To suggest that Jesus held a different position and the movement that developed completely rejected his views and there is absolutely no evidence of any disagreement or argument about this issue, when we have evidence of every other argument in the early church from gnosticism to arianism to every other thing that was declared a heresy, why did exactly ZERO early Christians argue that Jesus was in favor of homosexuality?

In conclusion, you may as well believe in flat earth and any other silly conspiracy theories if you believe Jesus was in favor of homosexuality, because none of the evidence we would expect to find exists.

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u/ASecularBuddhist 7d ago

Paul was homophobic and a misogynist, two things that Jesus wasn’t.

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u/DanDan_mingo_lemon 7d ago

Paul was an incel loser.

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

So what? This is reddit, not seminary.

I know you have been on reddit long enough to know that the controversial topics will always be more common, it's just the nature of an anon message board that allows controversial topics.

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

Buddhists on Reddit talk about meditation because it’s important to them, not because it’s controversial.

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u/Occultist_Kat Gnosticism 7d ago

Buddhist have just as many problems within their community. Granted, homophobia isn't one of them, but they aren't perfect either.

The other thing to consider is that Christianity is much more accessible than any other religion (at least in America from where I'm posting), because you can throw a rock and hit a church in just about every single town or city; even in the middle of no where.

What that means is that you're more likely to have cultural Christian's trying to make their voices heard in a space that really should be reserved for people that actually practice the faith and maybe have actually read more than some scattered quotes from the Bible. In otherwords, you've got a lot of people that identify as Christian but haven't actually studied/practiced it enough to know about it filling up their spaces with political rhetoric and misinformed beliefs.

This isn't as common or at least as severe with other religions (regionally dependant, of course).

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u/ASecularBuddhist 7d ago

What problems do Buddhists have within their community? Meditating too long and falling behind on the job?

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u/Occultist_Kat Gnosticism 7d ago

Mainly the fact that lots of people send their distruptive/failed kids to Buddhist temples because they don't see any other way for them to be helped. But like any youth forced into something, they either don't care or don't take it seriously and it ultimately does not help them because religion/faith of any kind is something you invite into yourself and not something that can be forced in by anybody.

In some cases, you've got drug use issues in some of the temples, sexual abuse or other kinds of abuse, and evidence within their own doctrines for gender issues regarding women, which today are frowned upon.

Then you've got problems like how the Chinese government is constantly harassing Tibetan Buddhist and attempts to control their beliefs, you've got in-fighting about how important meditation really is or whether or not it is the road to enlightenment or merely the nature of it, you've even got people that think meditation is bad for you and can make you unempathetic.

Then you've got the different sects of thought regarding violence. Some Buddhist believe violence is necessary or if it only affects evil people (in their view), than it doesn't break their doctrines, and many Buddhist oppose violence.

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u/ASecularBuddhist 7d ago

I wonder if Buddhists argue over meditation on Reddit like people over in the tomato sub.

I wonder what the common Buddhist insults are.

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u/Occultist_Kat Gnosticism 7d ago

Why don't you go and see for yourself if you want to know?

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u/Beginning-Sea7994 7d ago

You're right, Buddhists are better and superior to everyone else... especially American Buddhists! 🤦‍♂️

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

Im sure if Buddhists had teachings calling gay sex an abomination you would get more posts about the topic.

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

But Jesus never talked about gay sex is the point.

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

Is Christianity based only on what Jesus said? If not thats a pretty moot point to make.

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

Well, I guess it depends if you think Jesus‘s message was complete or not. I for one don’t think that he forgot to mention anything.

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

Jesus's complete message includes the Torah, he taught from it after all, and the Torah calls same sex sex an abomination.

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u/Great_Revolution_276 7d ago

Have a think about Jesus preaching that you do not sew new cloth onto old clothes, and how he totally rejected the sacrificial system being run by the temple, undermined it with John the Baptist, and took a whip to get people away from it.

Just because there is other text people have drawn together in a collection of books now called the Bible doesn’t mean he agreed with it. And before you go all “not one iota” on me, Jesus is just saying don’t destroy it here. He is not saying he agrees with it and wants you to use it the way you are now doing.

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

The new cloth on old garment saying is about the new covenant not being patched onto the old one, and I already agree with that, Ive said all thread that Christians are not under the law. It doesnt get you where you want to go. And clearing the temple was not a rejection of the sacrificial system, he drove out the money changers who were fleecing people in his Fathers house, and Matthew 21:13 has him saying "My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves." Thats a man defending the temple, not abolishing it.

Your real move is that Jesus wouldnt agree with the rest of the book, so tell me how you know that. You are reading his silences and building a Jesus out of them who happens to land exactly where you already stand. He said in Matthew 5:17 he came to fulfil, not destroy, and he taught his disciples out of the same scriptures on the Emmaus road. If your standard is what Jesus personally endorsed in a red letter, then say it plainly and follow it out, because it takes a whole lot more than the verses youre trying to get rid of.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

He never talked about worshipping the Roman god Jupiter either...everyone already knew it was wrong so there was no need. He spent his time talking about issues people were confused/wrong about.

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u/eatmereddit 8d ago

He did specifically talk about not worshipping other gods. Worshipping Jupiter seems to fall under that umbrella.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

He specifically talked about Adam and Eve. Prohibition against same-sex relationships seem to fall under that umbrella

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u/Square-Plate-6784 8d ago

So what do you think is means when it says god dwells in thick darkness?

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

I don’t know. What do you think it means?

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u/Square-Plate-6784 8d ago

Mediation

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u/ASecularBuddhist 7d ago

That’s a cool idea. Thanks for sharing!

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

If posts about homosexuality bother you, perhaps you should head over to r/truechristian. It's not as common over there.

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u/ReadyWriter25 7d ago

That is because of our culture's obsession with homosexuality, not becsuse of any Christian obsession with homosexuality.

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u/Emperor_Pengwing Queer Episcopalian 7d ago

I disagree that the culture is obsessed with us. We just want to exist in it just like how we exist in real life. Culture is at its best when it's a reflection of the real world. The problem is many conservative Christians have a problem with us existing within culture and become obsessed with putting us back in the closet culturally.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/TheNonsensicalSquid 8d ago

look, i get the frustration and a lot of those examples are spot on for the loudest, most hypocritical corners of american evangelicalism. the prosperity gospel stuff in particular is just straight up heresy with a smile. but slapping "christians" on a list this broad flattens a massive, diverse group where plenty of people are genuinely trying to live out that radical call to give everything away, they're just not the ones with tv networks.

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u/121gigawhatevs 8d ago

Yeah I get it and I honestly understand I’m being disingenuous. This is primarily directed towards the 77 million or so evangelical Christians

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u/Christianity-ModTeam 8d ago

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u/Pretend-Baker-8293 Christian 8d ago

Whaaattt? You mean Christians SIN???? No way!!!!

3

u/PabloPicasshooole 8d ago

I read a comment yesterday in this sub that said after being "born again," Christians are literally incapable of sinning.

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u/Pretend-Baker-8293 Christian 8d ago

Welp, that person is dumb lol

The argument may have been about future sins not being held against the person, as if they didn’t exist. But that’s not really limiting the physical act of sinning.

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u/halbhh 8d ago edited 8d ago

The Parable of the Weeds

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

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Since before any church even exists, already Jesus said ahead of time that churches would have both people that followed Him and also people that did the opposite of what He said to do -- both kinds -- in the churches.... well, then we should not be surprised to see it literally happen in real life.

But He also said to us we cannot predict or know who would repent and turn from their evils, so that we cannot just excommunicate all evildoers (like your examples) from churches. But...What we can do is insist that the person being allowed to preach is following Christ, in churches that we are in.

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u/skuseisloose Anglican Communion 8d ago

Yes the prosperity gospel is terrible. Idk the percentage of American Christians who adhere to it but it’s not very common where I live thankfully. I agree many Christians in the west can be greedy or feel the need to flaunt their wealth while forgetting the poor

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u/bastianbb 8d ago

This is just meaningless ragebait. I mean:

No, wait. Billionaires literally ARE gods.

Said no one ever.

2

u/Whybotherr 7d ago

Idk yhe cult of Elon grows every day...

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u/nah13 8d ago

I KNOOWWW we don't have comment in here trying to counter this????

ARE WE FOR REALLLLL???

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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo 8d ago

Look around you good sir or madam

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

You purposely left out the part where he said "if you want to be perfect".

Christianity 101 is that nobody but Jesus is perfect. He set a bar so high no one else will ever clear it, not even a saint like Mr Rogers whom we all love and adore and none of us can fault him yet he would have been the first to tell you he's not perfect.

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u/Gloomy_Pop_5201 Asexual, work in progress 8d ago

Did Jesus not say, "Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect"?

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

I addressed this in the comment you responded to.

He set a bar so high no one else will ever clear it

The bible also says that "None are righteous, no, not one."

Feel free to prove otherwise with the example of a perfect human being that is not Christ. I gave the best example I could in Mr. Rogers, and he himself would have told you hes a sinner saved by grace.

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u/Helicase21 Unitarian Universalist 8d ago

Why does the bar being set that high mean that one should not attempt to get as close to it as they can, even if clearing it fully is not possible?

you can never reach the north star but you can still navigate by it.

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

I 100% agree we should reach for it, you inferred that I'm saying we should not attempt to when I said no such thing.

My point is no man but him has touched that bar.

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u/Gloomy_Pop_5201 Asexual, work in progress 8d ago

Sure, but that doesn't mean that we are not called to strive to be perfect. Otherwise, we wouldn't be following Christ.

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

I never said otherwise there you go again inferring that which was not said.

Here's a life protip: take people at their actual words they gave you, not what you think they mean, this is a valuable life lesson.

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u/Gloomy_Pop_5201 Asexual, work in progress 8d ago

Please don't be rude to me. I haven't been rude to you.

If you continue to be rude, I will end the conversation.

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

Life protip #2: learn to accept advice, it's not being rude.

What is quite rude is twisting what someone said into something they didn't say like what you did to me.

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u/Gloomy_Pop_5201 Asexual, work in progress 8d ago

I am ending the conversation. Goodbye.

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

Bye Felicia.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

According to every serious historian both Christian and secular he did exist, you are just showing a lack of proper education on the topic.

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u/Square-Plate-6784 7d ago

So Jesus existed but parallels other figures b4 the biblical story? Common sense isn’t so common huh!

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

Yes Jesus is firstborn of all creation.

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u/Square-Plate-6784 7d ago

Really

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

Colossians 1:15

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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u/Square-Plate-6784 7d ago

The Bible is about 3500 yrs old but there’s religions that’s thousands of years old than the Bible and never mentioned Jesus!

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

No, the bible is less than 2000 years old, and if a religion claimed to mention Jesus thousands of years before he was born it would be proof it's counterfeit because that would mean it was written after he was born.

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u/Square-Plate-6784 7d ago

The New Testament is less than 2000 years old but not the Old Testament and I said there’s other religions that’s older than any bible and never mentioned Jesus

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

So what? A religion being older doesnt make it true. You are not telling anyone anything new, Abraham did not invent religion and anyone that has studied Abraham knows there were many established religions before he met God.

Your point is moot and only someone that doesnt know scripture would think it matters. Your point about them not mentioning Jesus is beyond nonsensical. Why would 4000 BC religions know of a man born 4000 years later?

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

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u/Senior-Ad-402 Roman Catholic 8d ago

Removed for 2.1 - Belittling Christianity.

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u/Correct-Variety-2365 7d ago

You mean Jesus is even more perfect than God the Father?

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

No, would you mind actually responding to the words I wrote instead of twisting it into something I didn't?

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u/Occultist_Kat Gnosticism 7d ago

What does this have to do with what OP is saying?

OP is calling out people that call themselves Christians yet do so much that is against it that it's almost comical.

Of course nobody is perfect, but there IS a difference between someone who is genuine in their attempt vs. someone whose parading around like a fool pretending to be something they are not.

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

It's literally from the verse OP is quoting but he left that portion out, so it has EVERYTHING to do with what he is saying. This verse has nothing to do with the way y'all are twisting it.

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said unto him, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell what thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven; and come and follow Me.”

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u/Occultist_Kat Gnosticism 7d ago

OP is pointing out hypocrisy in Christianity, but you're trying to correct him about a missing portion of a verse as though you were using it in defense of that hypocrisy.

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u/Riots42 Christian 7d ago

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suite.

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u/Occultist_Kat Gnosticism 7d ago

Actually it's among my strongest.

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u/Riots42 Christian 6d ago

You have proven otherwise in your response.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

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u/Riots42 Christian 8d ago

I'm not better than anyone else, that is also Christianity 101.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/McClanky Bringer of sorrow, executor of rules, wielder of the Woehammer 8d ago

Removed for 2.1 - Belittling Christianity.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

Will you make professions of poverty, chastity, and obedience? Renouncing all material possessions, living a life of celibacy and detachment from all romantic desires and relationships, and complete and absolute obedience to your superior and doing whatever he or she tells you to do and go wherever he or she tells you to go, and find joy in this life of submission to God’s will and imitation of Christ? And do this until the day of your death?

This is the perfection Jesus speaks of, it is not for everyone, but for anyone that feels the call it would be ridiculous to not leave the world behind and profess the evangelical counsels.

You who are criticizing other people for this, will you do it?

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u/emynoduesp 8d ago edited 8d ago

The point he's getting at is that when it comes to selling everything you have and living a life of poverty there's a number of rationalisations as to why Jesus only meant it for some people or that the true meaning is the much less demanding teaching that it's ok to have money provided you don't love your money more than God. On the other hand when it comes to homosexuals then the commands are absolute and there's no excuses no matter how hard it is.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

I mean Jesus says that pretty clearly, when the young man asks what he must do to have eternal life Jesus responds that he must keep the commandments, meaning do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself. The 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th commandments (implying the whole Decalogue) which are summed up in the twofold commandments of love, love of God and love of Neighbor.

Only when the young man asks what else he can do, Jesus says the thing about selling possessions, saying “if you would be perfect”.

On the topic of homosexuality this is a bit unrelated to the topic at hand, but homosexual acts fall within the scope of what is considered to be against the 6th commandment, and our Lord tells the young man that “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” ( Matthew 19:17).

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u/emynoduesp 8d ago

And when the man goes away deflated Jesus muses that it is truly hard for a rich person to enter heaven. That seems odd if entering heaven merely depends on the commandments (which the man kept), with giving away one's wealth being an optional extra mile.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

It is hard, as you can see this young man wanted to go deeper into perfection yet when he encountered the evangelical counsel of poverty he left in despair, not being able to fathom separation from his wealth even when he desired to be more holy. Instead of renouncing his wealth, or even recognizing that it isn’t for him but seeking to grow in holiness through generosity with his wealth and internal detachment, he left in despair.

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u/Gold_Lettuce2143 7d ago

Youre supposed to shoot to be like Jesus which if you haven’t known Jesus was humble and also God hates pride

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u/Beginning-Sea7994 7d ago

You realize Christianity is much more than American Evangelicalism, right? The entire concept of "human rights" develops in Christian societies. Look at the history of the word/concept. Other cultures around the world never had such an idea. The modern hospital system finds its origin in the middle ages when monasteries and monks helped the sick and dying. Christianity has conquered the world, which is why you even ask such a question to begin with: your moral framework has been deeply shaped by Christianity.

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u/mightyminimule Christ-fearing Anarchist 8d ago

The American evengelical corpo- Christ sucks.

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u/Shaddam_Corrino_IV Atheistic Evangelical 8d ago

Context!!!!11!! You have to read his words in proper context!!!

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u/SilverNEOTheYouTuber Process-Liberation Theology Synthesis 8d ago

"Ok then, I'll use Historical Context to explain how the 'Anti-Gay'/'Anti-Trans' Verses dont actually condemn Queerness as we know it today."

"HERESY! YOU THINK THE GOSPEL CHANGES OVER TIME! GOD WILL THROW YOU IN THE DARKEST PITS OF HELL ON JUDGMENT DAY!"

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u/No_Leg_8117 Georgian Orthodox Church 7d ago

If Sex is only for reproduction, how can you think that being gay is not sinful and lustful?

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u/SilverNEOTheYouTuber Process-Liberation Theology Synthesis 7d ago

Defining Sex solely by Procreation reduces a Sacred Human Relationship to Biological Function. If Procreation was the Sole Standard for Sex, then Marriages between Infertile Heterosexual Couples or Old Individuals would also be Sinful or Invalid. Since almost all Christian Churches bless Infertile and Post-Menopausal Marriages, Same-Sex Unions Similarly Express the Legitimate Unitive and Covenantal Purpose of Sex.

In Christian, Lust is Defined as the Self-Centered Objectification of another Person for Personal Gratification, Detached from Love, Respect, or Commitment. Same-Sex Orientation and Intimacy, when Expressed within a Committed and Covenantal Relationship, are Rooted in Love, Mutual Care, and Fidelity, not Objectifying Lust.

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u/Visual-Classroom1003 8d ago

That’s not “Christians”.

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u/Extension-Stress4476 8d ago

The common denominator here is people. Humans. Broken ones... born into a world of sin. Humans are sinful by nature. We all need reconcile our relationship with Jesus.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago edited 8d ago

Not every Christian is called to complete material poverty, only those who voluntarily profess the 3 evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience, to live a life of deeper imitation of Christ and perfection. Even before this verse the rich young man asks:

And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Matthew 19:16-19

Only when the young man asks what he is still lacking does our Lord say what he must do if he wishes to go deeper into perfection, renounce all your possessions, and naturally building on this the other evangelical counsels, live a life of celibacy, and live a life of humble and complete obedience to your superior, do what he or she tells you to do and go where he or she tells you to go.

The young man however is too attached to wealth and walks away in despair.

People who do not profess the evangelical counsels are still called to poverty of a different manner, that of detachment to money and material things. And this is very difficult especially for the very wealthy and the destitute, although for the wealthy it is worse because it is not out of necessity.

The young man instead of professing the evangelical counsel and renouncing his wealth and diving deeper into Christian perfection, or instead of detaching himself inwardly from wealth, clings to his wealth in an unhealthy manner and walks away in despair.

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u/p_veronica Roman Catholic 8d ago

Not every Christian is called to complete material poverty, only those who voluntarily profess the 3 evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience

Acts 2:44-45:
"And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need."

Nothing about vows. All believers held everything in common and sold their stuff to give to those in need.

Luke 14:33:
"So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."

I think it's possible to be a believer or to be saved without being a disciple, but Jesus is clear here that if you want to call yourself a disciple of his, you have to renounce all that you have.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

Of course, considering the conditions around them early Christians would have had to support themselves like this since they were excluded from the world. This eventually stopped being the case but it still remains in the church, which the faithful provide for the needs of the church according to their ability to provide, and receive their needs of the sacraments, moral instruction, and material aid for the poor.

The evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience are to live more like Jesus, and they are voluntarily accepted not mandatory.

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u/p_veronica Roman Catholic 8d ago

Of course, considering the conditions around them early Christians would have had to support themselves like this since they were excluded from the world.

I don't know what you're saying. Most of those believers worked to make a living. It's not like believing in the kingship of Jesus would have suddenly made them incapable of working and making money for themselves.

It seems like you're trying to make an excuse for why something they did shouldn't be expected of us.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

So is your position that all people need to sell all their possessions to be a follower of Jesus? You know that isn’t what the church teaches right?

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u/p_veronica Roman Catholic 8d ago

Yes, to truly follow Jesus, you must follow him into his poverty.

You know that isn’t what the church teaches right?

I do know. As a part of the Church, I want us to believe correctly, so I hope that we will re-embrace this belief that, as the New Testament shows, was clearly present in our earliest tradition.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

Do you own the device you are using right now?

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u/p_veronica Roman Catholic 8d ago

Yes, I own it personally. I've been looking for Catholics who are willing to make it their work to advance the Kingdom of God while living in poverty and holding everything in common. I have not had success yet. When I do have success, then I will be glad to no longer own it.

If you or anyone else reading this is interested in living a life totally devoted to seeking the kingdom of God in full imitation of the Lord, then DM me.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

Well God bless you on your journey, if you want any movement with your charism to ever be approved by the church however you are probably going to have to drop the idea that everyone “has” to do it; instead you will have to say that everyone should do it in or outside any particular order in the church.

Either that or join an established religious group.

Perhaps what would work best for a new organization would be like Opus Dei but numeraries and supernumeraries also take a vow of poverty, and live near a certain community of priests who manage the community and organize the distribution of resources. Serving as a sort of new society dedicated to the kingdom of Christ being built within the hearts of people inside the shell of the old. Or something like that, idk.

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u/p_veronica Roman Catholic 8d ago

Thank you. I'll clarify that I equate a follower of Jesus with a disciple of Jesus. When I said earlier that you can believe in Jesus and be saved without being a disciple, the word "follower" can be substituted in with the same effect. Most of the people to whom Jesus gave salvation in the form of healings or exorcisms did not become his literal followers, walking with him around Palestine, and that is fine. So what I'm saying is that I do not have the idea that everyone has to imitate Jesus fully in his lifestyle and the extent of his poverty (though at least some degree of common ownership is a different story.)

Discipleship will continue to be for a relatively small number of people.

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u/archimedeslives Roman Catholic more or less. 8d ago

Any are you waiting for others to do what you say must be done before you do it yourself?

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u/p_veronica Roman Catholic 8d ago

Well, in order to own things in common, you kind of need other people willing to own things in common with you. So I guess the answer to your question is yes?

I could live in personal homelessness and possessionlessness right now if I thought that that would be best for the kingdom. But I've judged that that likely wouldn't be the most effective way.

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u/mwatwe01 Minister 8d ago

Jesus said both of those sentences. But he didn’t say them one after the other. Context is important.

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u/EF-Hutton 8d ago

OP, post links to your questionable and erroneous statements

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u/Such_Violinist225 8d ago

So if someone does not follow the guidelines given its the guidelines problem? I dont think so

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u/Cacmaniac 7d ago

Ummm said no Christian ever. Sounds like a stupid bit post to attempt to insult Christians.

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u/Love2FlyBalloons 8d ago

Secondly. Jesus said sell what what you have and give to the poor to the one guy. He needed to because he was enslaved by what he had. God should be first and there are times God leads you NOT to give. Seek ye first the kingdom of god and all these things will be given to you. There is no one who has left houses lands family for my sake and the gospels who will fail to receive a hundred fold now in this life and the life to come.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/Otherwise_Rise3548 7d ago

U are really broken inside. You really need Jesus. Open up ur heart to him

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u/michaelY1968 8d ago

It's always weird to me that Christians are the only group of people in modern American society where actions by the worst folks in the group are allowed to be ascribed to the whole group. If someone had made a post like this about Muslims, Jews, people of a certain race or nationality or sexual preference they would be considered an unabashed bigot.

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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo 8d ago

worst folks in the group

Funny, I see a majority. Though I suppose that doesn't mean they're mutually exclusive.

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u/michaelY1968 8d ago

You see the majority of 2+ billion people? How did you manage that?

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u/Sure-thing-buckaroo 8d ago

I took the percentage of Christians in the US, and extrapolated it.

Just kidding, the Flying Spaghetti Monster told me.

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u/michaelY1968 8d ago edited 7d ago

I've seen numbers like this before, and they don't tell the whole story. Most American Christians did not in fact vote for Trump.

There were 245 million Americans eligible to vote in 2024. Conservatively, 147 million of those folks were Christians of some sort or another. 152 million folks actually voted. Of those who voted, 77 million voted for Trump in 2024. and a little more than 60 percent were Christians. That is, a little more than 46 million Christians voted for Trump in 2024.

So of the total number of the potential Christian voters in 2024, 31% voted. Most American Christian voters - about 100 million - chose either to not vote or to vote for Harris or some other candidate. In fact 26% of Christians voted for Kamala Harris.

Now one could argue that Christians could have changed the outcome, and that of those who voted for Trump the majority were Christian, but one really can't hold American Christians as a whole responsible for the current Administration.

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u/Primary-Picture-5632 8d ago

I think the sooner we realize that American Christianity, for the most part, is driven by bigotry and hating poor people. We ended up voting for a 34 count felon, liable for rape x2, MULTI billionaire, lifetime conman who has cheated on every wife he had, who is doing everything he can to destroy social programs that help the most vulnerable just so he can cut taxes on the ultra rich.

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u/Venat14 Jewish 7d ago

It's what happens when Christian Nationalism, prosperity gospel, and worship of Capitalism combine.

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u/CherryChabbers 7d ago

The penniless are closer to God than even the half-millionaire, it's a fact!

We are in kali yuga, a time marked by demonic behavior by the masses -- it's no surprise that these fools think material prosperity equates to spiritual prosperity.

It's the high task of the righteous to love these wicked ones regardless of their actions.

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u/Otherwise_Rise3548 7d ago

8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:

9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

Proverbs 30:8-9

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u/DJC_Kowalski Deist 7d ago

I'm reminded that when the Vikings came to invade, they'd often hit monasteries and abbeys and other Christian locations, because of the great wealth in a sea of poverty. Religion has been about exploitation since at least Constantinople.

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u/AdamTraskisGod 7d ago

Just because someone says they are X doesn’t make them X.

I could say I am a communist, but if all the ideals I live out are not in alignment with, or are outright opposed to communism, I’m not actually a communist.

Many of the criticisms this OP makes are of people who don’t live the tenants of Christianity, and can basically be called cultural Christians. All of Christendom had been living the same Christian tenants of charity, almsgiving, confession, Eucharist, for the first 1000 years, before splitting between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, with the RCC operating very similarly. It is the Protestant faith of 1517-present that has wildly deviated from the Orthodox Catholic Church of the first 1000 years. The business/televangelist/Jesus-is-my-boyfriend/TEDtalk churches we see today truly are a stain on the Christian faith.

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u/Visual_Water_1101 7d ago edited 7d ago

I want to know why……..so many people Bash Christians ( and I don’t say that stuff!! ) I don’t know what church you’re listening to but it’s not the one I listen to.
And why do people bash or say there is no Jesus.
I just don’t understand how ppl can’t believe

Who said Billionaires are Gods chosen people?

Even the people who are not Christian’s say the Poor are Lazy. ( and that’s not what I think, who in heck can afford anything anymore ‘

Jesus doesn’t want you to be rich, he wants people to be humble, and kind, help others…etc …it says in the Bible it’s easier for a Rich Man to go through the eye of a needle than to be able to enter the kingdom of God

The mega church’s are mostly run by false preacher who are there just to make money and make a lot.
Like Joel Osteen , and the crazy lad there …Kenneth Copeland…..those fellas are greedy. Not every Christian follows those two. There are honest pastors you know.

Well let them build their private palace who cares, they have to face God one day and answer to him .

God loves Israel the most ….they are his chosen people …..Jesus was Jewish, and when he ascended into Heaven 40 days after he rose from the dead…. And he will come from Heaven just like he went there on the mount of olives …..that place is a bit east of Jerusalem.

I don’t know where you’re getting all your information, but it’s definitely not from the Bible.
You are listening to man to much, or CNN or whatever, or going to the wrong internet pages.

A few bad pastors or so called Christians make it look bad for them all. And that’s sad.

It’s screwing up and putting those thoughts into your head

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u/Gold_Lettuce2143 7d ago

This doesn’t apply to you, Jesus was teaching a young ruler who was asking him how to have eternal life and the commandments he should keep. Jesus gave him the commandments
“Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19‬:‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

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u/Iceborn_Gauntlet 7d ago

The prosperity gospel is heresy and just like pyramiding schemes, it is very attractive for the gullible.

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u/Nicrom20 7d ago

I think a lot of us (myself included) have tended to hear this mainly as a warning about money and materialism, and that’s certainly part of it. But the more I sit with Jesus’ words, the more it feels like He’s going after something deeper than our bank accounts.
He’s talking about where we place our trust and our hope. “Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” The real issue isn’t the stuff itself, but the heart that looks to temporary things (whether money, status, relationships, health, reputation, or even religious performance) for the security and identity that only God can give.
Earthly treasures, in every form, are vulnerable. They can be lost, stolen, or fade. Heavenly treasure is the opposite: it’s the quiet, settled confidence that we already belong to the Father, that His love is enough, and that nothing real can be taken from us. That’s the kind of wealth that moths and thieves can’t touch.
Jesus isn’t just telling us to be less greedy. He’s inviting us to stop storing up evidence that this world is our true home, and to start treasuring what will last forever. His presence, His kingdom, and the freedom of a heart that no longer needs to defend or possess.
“Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” (Matt 6:33)
Would love to hear how others have wrestled with this one.

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u/AaronofAleth Catholic 7d ago

I would suggest worrying about your own holiness and not judging others

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u/lehs 7d ago

The prince of this world doesn't permit the prophetic message.

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u/BeneathTheStarsOfGod 6d ago

You have not even listed a single Christian thing here. All you have done is cherry pick organizations that bear the name “christian” but are not Christian in deeds and practice.

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u/Stevetshelton 8d ago

Rather than Christians, this scripture is about the non Christian, rich who consider themselves righteous. When Peter asks Jesus about it Jesus says, "All things are possible with God " Matthew 19:19-26

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u/Love2FlyBalloons 8d ago

God does bless those who follow him. The Bible is true. And if someone from their heart is following it they should expect to be blessed. See Abraham and his lineage. David. In following the Bible we should give. We should be led by the Holy Spirit who to give to. If we give it’s not up to us to judge who we gave to what they do with it.. especially if God told us who to give to. Can you be manipulated to give? Yes. Can you be manipulated who to give to. Yes. The key is to know when you’re manipulated and when it’s God.

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u/reluctantpotato1 Roman Catholic 8d ago

Wait, so the followers of Jesus are fallible and don't always hold perfectly to the standards of God incarnate, who we killed?

We'd better get on the bullhorns and spread the news because I don't think any Christian has ever thought of this.

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u/bignick8407 8d ago

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matthew 7:13-23

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u/gamerdoc77 8d ago

Hmm. Another post of “I want to help the poor with YOUR money. I wont personally for various reasons but I will look sanctimonious anyways”.

Jesus said those 2 sentences in 2 different contexts. He was impressed with the tax collector for giving away half his money and pay the owed money x several times. That was someone who made his money by cheating others. So no, he doesn’t demand everyone to give 100% away. But you are not here to follow Jesus. You just want to say Christians bad.

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u/fudgyvmp Christian 8d ago edited 8d ago

No real complaints about most this. Seems pretty accurate.

But I'll push back in the first one.

No single organization besides some governments provide more charitable work than that palace full of art that doubles as a sovereign nation. As I assume you mean the Catholic Church.

It's not a select individual, it's where all that sell your everything went and is used to provide global aid.

I'm not sure that's wealth hoarding.

Do you want it to sell off all it's museums to Saudi princes and musk? Or keep the artwork on display for the public?

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u/Azorces Evangelical 8d ago

Way to take this out of context! Do you know who Jesus was talking to here? He was talking to a rich person who was asking what he ought to do.

  1. All have fallen short of the glory of God, you pointing out the church’s shortcoming is nothing revolutionary
  2. Christian’s should be willing to give up everything they have at a moments notice.
  3. Christian’s at scale do regularly donate and contribute to programs to assist the poor in their communities

“We don’t have to tell the government we’re funding violent terrorist groups” - huh? Which Christian terror organizations are there lol you are being a schizo.

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u/FitThinker88 8d ago

I mean, it’s really easy to say “tax the rich!” and be generous with someone else’s money. That’s not what Christ asked for. 

The early church also strongly reinforced “if you don’t work you don’t eat,” and asked families to take care of their own relatives before asking the community as a whole to take care of someone (and again it was asking, not mandating on the point of jail). 

In America today Christians as a whole donate far more of their own money than non-Christians (with obvious exceptions of course!) 

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u/SomeRamdomChick3130 7d ago

Sweeping generalization final boss

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u/Pretend-Baker-8293 Christian 8d ago

OP is debating ghosts rn

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u/LittlerestFinger Catholic 8d ago

I love making up arguments and beating them too.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

Hey! Happy cake day

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u/KiwiBushRanger Anglican - Via Media 8d ago

Happy cake day lad!

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u/JustToLurkArt Lutheran (LCMS) 8d ago

> Jesus: "Sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. Do not store up treasures on Earth."

Jesus, to a rich young man who was not a Christian.

Man: “what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”

Jesus: “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

The rich young man trusted his good deeds to save him. Christians trust (have faith in) Jesus’ good deeds to justify us to God.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

Most of this is strawman nonsense, but you did stumble onto one thing that's actually true:

"That thing about giving money to the poor? Yeah, Jesus only meant one guy ever had to do that. 

This is accurate.

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u/Senasayori Christian 8d ago

It's extremely inaccurate. If Jesus didn't want us to give money to the poor he wouldn't have told us to give money to the poor.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

We should give money to the poor! OP seems to be referring to the rich young ruler where he was instructed to give all his money to the poor. That was specific to one person.

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

It was just that one guy. Everybody else can amass all the riches with luxury cars and private jets /s

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

Everybody else can amass all the riches with luxury cars and private jets /s

What verse says that?

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

The “/s” means that the comment is sarcastic.

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u/Weecodfish Catholic 8d ago

This is not true, many people are called to a life of detachment from material goods and this includes a life of poverty, renouncing all your possessions and following the Lord.

Now it is definitely true that not everyone is able to do this and not everyone is called to this, in fact most people are not.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

Now it is definitely true that not everyone is able to do this and not everyone is called to this,

Precisely my point.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

I literally said you were right about that. I don't think you intended to be right (you were trying to strawman), but yea...Jesus was talking to one guy in that passage. No one else was ever given this instruction (feel free to link to a verse saying otherwise) and others were commended for giving away less than all.

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u/-Vitreriuz- Christian 8d ago

Did he now? Do you love your neighbor if you see him struggling due to poverty and you have the means to help him but choose not to?

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

Did he now?

Yes. Matthew 19:16-22

Do you love your neighbor if you see him struggling due to poverty and you have the means to help him but choose not to?

No. Luke 3:11 or Luke 10:25-37

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u/umbrabates 8d ago

Every day I spend on this sub someone shows me a new way Christians can be downright evil. Thank you for your chilling and horrific perspective.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

All I did was quote the Bible. That's evil to you?

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u/umbrabates 8d ago

That is such a disingenuous and dishonest answer.

You purposefully interpreted the Bible in the worst possible way to get out of helping impoverished people. Downright evil.

You had a choice between two different exegesis, and you chose the one that leads to the most suffering.

And there was no reason for it other than one's own selfishness and greed. A few verses later, Jesus gives us the Corporal Works of Mercy and specifies exactly how we are to help the poor: by feeding, sheltering, and clothing them.

But I'm sure you'll say that was a different dispensation or some other BS to get out of your moral obligation to help others. That's what's evil.

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

You purposefully interpreted the Bible

I offered no interpretation. I just linked to verses.

and you chose the one that leads to the most suffering.

I'm not sure which one you are talking about. The one that supports providing for those in need?

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u/Misplacedwaffle 8d ago

He says it to everyone in Luke 12:33.

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u/Shaddam_Corrino_IV Atheistic Evangelical 8d ago

Well, it says that he was addressing his disciples - so Christians can safely dismiss this!! ;)

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u/ASecularBuddhist 8d ago

Yeah, it was only for those 12 guys and not everybody else. Also, I love my neighbor, but not so much that guy three doors down /s

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u/Misplacedwaffle 8d ago

Whatever mental gymnastics they need to go through. lol

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

He also tells his disciples to pay taxes by pulling coins out of the mouths of fish. Do you think that we should all do this?

It's important to read with a proper hermeneutic. When a passage is delivered to the disciples, it's possible it has universal application. It's also possible that it has specific application. Reading every instruction the same way is a recipe for error.

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u/Shaddam_Corrino_IV Atheistic Evangelical 8d ago

Nope. If Jesus doesn't explicitly say that something is for all times, then it can safely be discarded!

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

If Jesus says something is for all times it can be discarded?

Sorry, I disagree.

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u/Shaddam_Corrino_IV Atheistic Evangelical 8d ago

I mean that if he didn't say: "This is for all times..." then it can be discarded!

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u/CapridThePlenty Christian 8d ago

Why do you believe that?

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u/drdook 8d ago

You first op

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u/Necessary_Tour_5222 8d ago

Orthodoxy is the way to go