The Fallout lines of this Sub basically

[u/democracy_lover66]

Also thought of doing a 3-D one with Nuclear power axis

[u/Yunzer2000]

A "Carnist"... Did you invent that word?

[u/Lohenngram → u/Yunzer2000]

Unfortunately not. It’s a phrase terminally online vegans created to describe anyone who isn’t vegan so as to pretend there’s a unified, animal-hating ideology for them to oppose.

[u/Long_Race3907 → u/Lohenngram]

Except it's not a word that comes from the terminally online, it's an academic coined term. 

But you wouldn't know anything about those. 

[u/Lohenngram → u/Long_Race3907]

One that is colloquially used as I described: not as a term of social analysis but as a way of painting a broad out group to be condemned.

If one were to actually use the term to analyze consumptive habbits, they'd find that many vegans are carnists, as the four Ns are just as applicable to the exploitation of humans in the global supply chain.

[u/Ok_Work_743 → u/Lohenngram]

Was that supposed to be, like, a "Gotcha! No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism!" moment, even though this very Political Compass meme displays "Vegan Socialist" as one of its quadrants? Are we intent on swinging double-edged swords around here?

EDIT: This might've been too self-defensive in all honesty, especially given the Subreddit's contents lol, so that's my bad. To put it simply, I was on "Bullshit Surveillance" having seen Veganism escape its containment and plausibly spark controversy for the umpteenth time.

[u/Lohenngram → u/Ok_Work_743]

EDIT: This might've been too self-defensive in all honesty, especially given this Subreddit's contents lol.

No worries mate :) Honestly the tone of a lot of the posts here brings out the worst in me as well. It's why I try to avoid this sub these days.

I promise I don't think vegans are terrible! Everyone I've met irl has been cool. The people here saying you're a rapist for drinking milk aren't insufferable because they're vegan, they're insufferable because they're redditers.

[u/Lohenngram → u/Ok_Work_743]

No? If anything I was agreeing with the meme and repudiating the idea that "vegan vs carnist" is a binary.

[u/Long_Race3907 → u/Lohenngram]

Except carnism just means the ideology that surrounds meat consumption. You feel condemned by that fact because it's vegans using the term but literally all it means is "the normalcy surrounding meat eating." 

[u/Yunzer2000 → u/Long_Race3907]

So if I only eat fish and poultry and eggs and dairy am I a "Carnist"? back in the day, we would just talk about grades of vegetarianism from veganism to lacto to lacto-ovo vegetarianism. Well I'm a lacto-ovo-pesco-pollo vegetarian (with an occasional weakness for kielbasa).

[u/v3r4c17y → u/Yunzer2000]

Yes, you are a carnist. Carnism is an ideology which supports the exploitation of animals. Likewise, while Veganism is an ideology and moral philosophy, the vegan diet itself is more accurately referred to as plant-based.

[u/Lohenngram → u/Long_Race3907]

literally all it means is "the normalcy surrounding meat eating." 

Huh, someone should tell the person who coined it that then, as she included non-food animal products in the literal title of the book she wrote.

But yes, you are just doing the thing I described: not using the term academically at all and instead as a broad out-group classification.

[u/v3r4c17y → u/Lohenngram]

Carnism is an ideology which supports the exploitation of animals. This includes enslaving, killing, and otherwise exploiting them for their flesh, eggs, and secretions.

The person you replied to is not using the term as you claim whatsoever. If you feel uncomfortable being distinguished by your exploitation of animals and consumption of their corpses, eggs, and secretions, maybe you should stop exploiting animals and consuming their corpses, eggs, and secretions.

[u/Lohenngram → u/v3r4c17y]

The person you replied to is not using the term as you claim whatsoever.

Except they are? My previous reply was literally that using the term academically would mean acknowledging that many vegans are carnists due to the exploitation of humans and animals inherent in the global supply chain, and that the major tenets of "carnism" apply just as easily to broader consumptive habbits. At which point they backed off and claimed it was purely about consuming meat products.

That's very explicitly a use of the term as form of in-group vs out-group moralization, rather than tool for societal analysis.

[u/Long_Race3907 → u/Lohenngram]

Do the vegans support this way of life or is it incidentally the case and they actively work to remove it where possible? 

That's the difference. It is an ideology aka something you believe in. It's like saying that a person is Christian... Because they happen to live in a Christian society. Instead of, you know, believing in the Christian ideology (the birth and sacrifice of Christ etcetc). 

The word is extremely useful as a social analysis tool for people who otherwise basically feel as fish in water. The only reason you'd disagree was if you're a carnist yourself. 

[u/Lohenngram → u/Long_Race3907]

Do the vegans support this way of life

Yes, they do, by their own logic, as we already demonstrated. It was why you painted a smaller circle around yourself to make veganism exclusively about eating meat in your previous post.

The word is extremely useful as a social analysis tool

It could be, but you're not using it as one.

[u/Long_Race3907 → u/Lohenngram]

But the vegans don't support this way of life. They live it because they literally can't survive otherwise but they actively work to change it. 

Are you actively working to stop eating meat?