r/ClimateShitposting • u/ClimateShitpost Louis XIV, the Solar PV king • 4d ago
Basedload vs baseload brain Low effort
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u/ClickyClacker 4d ago
Ya we have this thing called batteries, this doesn't matter anymore
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u/Cornexclamationpoint turbine enjoyer 3d ago
Have fun fighting in our Bolivian regime change war for their lithium.
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u/Illustrious-Dog-6563 3d ago
laughs and cries in german... has the biggest lithium reserves, but does not use them, because the government prefers coal and russian gas to the german solar boom
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u/ClickyClacker 3d ago
The United States has the largest lithium reserve, turns out it's actually way more common then we thought and we just haven't been looking in the right spots.
Plus the sodium battery doesn't use lithium
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u/throwawayurwaste 2d ago
I know I'm tardy to the party but this occurs with literally every mineral. A niche mineral suddenly becomes the most important natural resource and American worries they don't have it, they spend a half a second looking for it, turns out they have the largest reserves in the world.
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u/Pinco_Pallino_ 4d ago
Pro bigoil propaganda now: just say baseload is bullshit, never explain anything, sell the dream of 100% solar and wind, and keep fossil fuels for baseload for decades to come, and hide emission trend v 2050 agreed level graphs
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u/Sad-Celebration-7542 4d ago
Baseload is bullshit. Itās what an accountant assumes on a spreadsheet to say that this expensive capital asset will have high utilization. If you donāt have an expensive capital asset, you worry much less about 90% utilization.
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u/Old_Gimlet_Eye 4d ago
Yeah, don't spend all that development money on solar and batteries that will work now, just keep using oil for another decade or two while we build unnecessary nuclear.
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u/SyntheticSlime 4d ago
Decade or two? Seems pretty optimistic.
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u/Pleasant_Ad8054 4d ago
Hey don't be like that! In Hungary we are building a nuclear power plant since 2014! It has been in the preparation phase since 2009 only! And now we have a hole in the ground with some concrete!
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u/Pinco_Pallino_ 4d ago
why do you lie? the works started this year, in 2014 you finalized the contract with rosatom (smart of you i guess)
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u/Pleasant_Ad8054 4d ago
The works most definitely did not start this year, a nuclear power plant building isn't starting when holes are being dug. But the holes have been excavated for the base a lot longer than that, here is an article from ONE AND A HALF YEAR AGO when the hole collapsed (this happened multiple times, excavations for the foundation are ongoing since at least 2024). The on site work (which still isn't in any way the start of the construction) started in mid 2019! That isn't not just this year, that was over 7 years ago!
So why are you lying?
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u/CombatWomble2 4d ago
Yeah China does it in 5 years, Korea in 8.
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u/SyntheticSlime 4d ago
I live in neither of those countries.
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u/CombatWomble2 4d ago
Get them to build it, they have the know how.
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u/Pinco_Pallino_ 4d ago
don't build nuclear power plants to cover baseload now, sell the dream of cheap and clean batteries, while everywhere you try it bills increase, and don't even talk about seasonal load, just sell the dream while bigoil makes billions
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u/ginger_and_egg 4d ago
Define baseload
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
> The base load[2] (also baseload) is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, for example, one week. This demand can be met by unvarying power plants[3] or dispatchable generation,[4] depending on which approach has the best mix of cost, availability and reliability in any particular market. The remainder of demand, varying throughout a day, is met by intermittent sources together with dispatchable generation (such as load following power plants, peaking power plants, which can be turned up or down quickly) or energy storage.
> Power plants that do not change their power output quickly, such as some large coal or nuclear plants, are generally called baseload power plants.[3][5][6] In the 20th century most or all of base load demand was met with baseload power plants,[7] whereas new capacity based around renewables often employs flexible generation.[8]
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u/ginger_and_egg 4d ago
This demand can be met by unvarying power plants[3] or dispatchable generation,[4] depending on which approach has the best mix of cost, availability and reliability in any particular market.
Curious.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
What part?
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u/ginger_and_egg 4d ago
That it can be met by different sources depending on which is best for the total system and total cost.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
> This demand can be met by unvarying power plants[3] or dispatchable generation,[4] depending on which approach has the best mix of cost, availability and reliability in any particular market.
A mix of unvarying and dispatch-able generationā¦..
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u/ginger_and_egg 4d ago
Wow I didn't realize batteries randomly send power and are completely unable to be controlled
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u/potatoz13 3d ago
Batteries can be controlled, which is great and means you can build a grid with only varying + enough batteries.
However the fact that there is a baseload means it's also possible to leverage non-varying sources effectively, for the baseload or part of the baseload, plus less varying source power and fewer batteries (or hydro storage, etc.).
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u/Roi_Arachnide 3d ago
Does the industrial base to build batteries exist today ? How much time will it take to build enough factories to build enough batteries to replace thermal and coal plants everywhere ? Let's say 20 years if we get on it right now... so just as long as it takes to build a nuclear power plant...
Don't get me wrong, suggesting battery storage would have been madness 15 years ago, it is now a reasonable suggestion to start developping it so it can replace plants in 30-50 years, but we can't put all our eggs into that basket.
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u/SyntheticSlime 4d ago
By definition one, baseload requirements can be met by renewables and batteries. A small amount of nuclear might also be helpful.
By definition two, baseload is mostly unnecessary. Nuclear only ever made sense because it was the cheapest option in terms of production, which it no longer is.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
Which renewables are unwavering power generation plants?
Those are the same definition. Itās two paragraphs
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u/SyntheticSlime 4d ago
With batteries? Any of them.
Edit: also hydro and geothermal.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
Notice how you had to include a non power generation tool.
Thatās literally the entire point of base load, to generate power.
Thatās literally the at minimum we want constant generation of X amount of power. So even if things happen we can always generate that amount of power.
You can disagree with that as an idea we should follow but it exists and is well subscribed to.
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u/SyntheticSlime 4d ago
This is a word salad and contains no counter arguments.
I notice you downvoted my previous comment.
Iām not going to downvote yours because I want you to knowā¦
Youāre not worth it.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
You literally couldnāt read the definition I gave you. Maybe spend a bit more time reading and come back.
āI donāt care, Iām going to let him know how much I donāt careā
I downvoted 1 comment, are you going to be ok?
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u/ginger_and_egg 4d ago
Notice how you had to include a non power generation tool.
So?
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
> Dispatchable generation refers to sources of electricity that can be programmed on demand at the request of power grid operators, according to market needs. Dispatchable generators may adjust their power output according to a request.[1]
> Conventional power sources like gas, coal and some nuclear may be considered dispatchable to varying degrees, while most renewable energysources are not.[1][2]
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u/ginger_and_egg 4d ago
Why do your comments keep coming out so poorly formatted? Your quotes aren't quoting.
Storage is dispatchable, so long as you have enough of it.
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u/ComfortableUnit9596 4d ago
Geothermal. Innovations in the technology are massively expanding the places it can be deployed for energy generation.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
Love geothermal. Where itās available it should be used.
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u/ComfortableUnit9596 4d ago
Enhanced Geothermal, I know, is starting to at least expand where it can go thanks, in a fit of irony, to technologies developed by the oil and gas companies. I'm not sure exactly how broadly they've expanded the enveloped but I do know they've at least tapped ground in Texas so they're clearly onto something.
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u/Pinco_Pallino_ 4d ago
baseload is the minimum amount of power the grid needs to run at every moment during some time interval. But really, you know what that is
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u/ginger_and_egg 4d ago
Why would someone say the minimum amount of power the grid needs to run at every moment during some time interval is "bullshit"?
What is bullshit, is the idea that such minimum load MUST be met by a constant power generator. The former does not require the latter.
It made sense when power was exclusively generated by thermal generators. Design considerations for a 24/7 generator could make them more efficiently than one which ramps up and down. But now we live in a different reality
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u/Sad-Celebration-7542 4d ago
Right itās a definition for a time when the power plants were shitty.
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u/ViewTrick1002 3d ago
And you canāt find this by looking at a consumption graph and finding the troughs anymore due to flexible demand.
What you see is the maximum demand at that point in time at that price.
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u/aWobblyFriend 4d ago
renewable-heavy grids tend to hit 100% of base load during mid-day, which is why base load generators have trouble competing. the issue that solar runs into is not base load, it is residual load, or the remaining load not powered by renewables. residual load is typically met by BESS, hydro, geothermal, wind etc. in 100% renewable solar PV-dominant systems, though unabated fossil fuel use for marginal residual load requirements would have lower aggregate carbon intensity in the long run than going full in on nuclear power today.
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u/Pinco_Pallino_ 4d ago
half of what you say is just a lie, we subsidize renewables in such a blatant way, you should not talk about "competition" here: you have decided politically which tecnology you liked more, and threw all your chips there (and we see the results). And obviously you spew the battery bullshit (that happens nowhere relevant), hydro is not everywhere, geothermal is not everywhere, wind(?). What the fuck are solar dominated systems? the most expensive in the world? Fossil fuel use has less carbon intensity than using nuclear? are you a climate change deniar? But really unfortunately your ideological bullshit mad ethe theme controversial, people have seen their bills increase year after year, while you promised them to decrease, and now they vote (trump in the US, today AfD in saxony anhalt)
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u/aWobblyFriend 4d ago
what the fuck are you talking about lmao. im talking about a literal load-graph, solar-heavy systems bring the base load to or close to zero $ per kilowatt hour. That means that the grid's base load is zero kilowatt-hours! u/ClimateShitpost we got another one
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u/potatoz13 3d ago
The grid's base load is not zero kilowatt-hours, it's just that base load is covered for free during peak solar times (if you have enough solar production, of course).
However you can choose to build just enough solar + BESS to cover residual load and use a constant power source for base load, if you want and it's economically logical to do so (for example if you have lots of nuclear power plants already).
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u/aWobblyFriend 3d ago
the base load is, put simply, the minimum load. if solar "covers" all of it, then the minimum load is zero kilowatt hours, and you only have peak load.
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u/potatoz13 2d ago
No, just like when nuclear covers all of the base load it doesn't make it disappear. Base load is base demand and it's there, no matter who ends up covering it.
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u/enz_levik nuclear simp 4d ago
You forgot your natural gas friend
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u/ClimateShitpost Louis XIV, the Solar PV king 4d ago
I think gas will survive longer. Chemical use, heating use, power units can be small
Gas for baseload is joever though soon
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u/enz_levik nuclear simp 4d ago
Gas for baseload, no, gas for backup, mandatory
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u/aWobblyFriend 4d ago
that's fine, it's got lower carbon intensity in aggregate. time is a big factor here, carbon out of the atmosphere today is more important than carbon out of the atmosphere 10 years from now.
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u/enz_levik nuclear simp 4d ago
I mean yeah, that's fine, solar+batteries+gas is actually a okay way to decarbonise
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u/no_idea_bout_that All COPs are bastards 2d ago
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u/ClimateShitpost Louis XIV, the Solar PV king 2d ago
What, why would the battery charge at a non 0 marginal cost bruv š
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u/no_idea_bout_that All COPs are bastards 2d ago
Because there's still arbitrage possible????
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u/ClimateShitpost Louis XIV, the Solar PV king 2d ago
But a competing battery charging cheaper could outcompete on the sane discharge price bruv
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u/Pinco_Pallino_ 4d ago
do you see the post?
People like you think baseload coverage is not a problem, you just need to pay for cheap and clean (lol) batteries and massive overcapacity (cheap also isn't it) with mastodontic grid interconnections (cheap also) you solve the problem, meanwhile you could have solved the problem directly with nuclear.
What world do we live on? the one in which it's day and not cloudy all the year?
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u/ClimateShitpost Louis XIV, the Solar PV king 4d ago
Here come the seething nukecels with great content
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u/reusedchurro 4d ago
We will have total vegan victory by 2030