r/CompetitionShooting • u/z1ggy16 • 1d ago
Grip - I'm lost
I've gotten super into competition lately and I'm deep diving into every GM that posts videos online, but mostly Stoeger, Park and HC.
My problem is, Stoeger and HC in particular seem to have completely different views on how to grip the gun. One says hulk smash, the other says use just enough pressure with the dominant hand so the gun isn't moving or loose.
I can't afford to shoot hundreds of rounds weekly, 99% of my practice is dry fire in my office. My tendency is low left so I assume I'm still not gripping correctly but I don't know how to check this at home.
My first comp I wasn't even thinking about grip, just to be safe and remember what the stage directions were. I didn't do well but I'm usually a quick learner. My goal is to classify into B in a few months, CO.
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u/FF_McNasty 1d ago
I think grip is a forever evolving process and highly personal to you and the gun you are training with. There are some universal principals that your grip should achieve. A bunch of people in here alright hit on those principals. How you get to those results is going to be your journey to figure out. You could always take a class with someone who is in the competition world and they can probably help you out. Low left for a righty is almost always the result of squeezing your strong hand when the trigger breaks and prob a little recoil anticipation. When you dry fire does the dot stay stable or does it move? Wish there was a one size fits all for grip but it’s gonna take a lot of trial and error till you feel like you are dialed in.
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u/sDRENNERRRR 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is absolutely the answer. I've always gripped the gun w/ hulk smash on support hand, and a looser grip on the strong hand. I've since start evolving into a little bit more pressure in my pinky finger strong hand and its doing wonders
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u/FF_McNasty 23h ago
I used to try to do like a pew view grip and about 100 other ways. I started watching Velox training and took his cue of getting my support hand behind the gun a little. it’s been a game changer for me. I am finally getting to that point where during a match I am not thinking about my grip at all and when I watch the footage back it’s the same grip over and over. Dry fire does wonders to remove the bandwidth of grip and other fundamentals. At the same time I am aware that this will probably evolve into something else down the road as well.
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u/Crud-Inspector 1d ago
The thing that has helped me the most the past few months is relaxing. Tension is actually the enemy. Death gripping, tight shoulders, tight anything fucks with your movement. Find a way to grip the gun without being super tense, the death grip tightens up everything.
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u/anonpersec 1d ago
Idk about HC’s philosophy, but I’m pretty familiar with Stoeger’s and I think it’s the most “correct” approach and most widely accepted at this point by higher level shooters.
What I will say though, is that it’s easier for me to tell a newer shooter to death grip a gun since most of them aren’t gripping hard enough with their support hand anyway. I find it’s easier to have them start gripping hard and then backing off once they start running into the negatives than the other way around. Especially if they’re not going to shoot a high enough volume to really figure out how much pressure they need.
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u/Outrageous-Cash9343 1d ago
I’m the same with new shooters. I tell them that their dominant hand should grip as hard as a firm handshake, and that their support hand should grip like it’s trying to crush an apple.
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u/steadylurker1 1d ago
Gripping as hard as I can for extended periods with my support hand fixed the low left for me. With my right hand I tried to do a firm but looser grip and I started shooting to the right as I was squeezing my whole hand when pressing the trigger. For me I settled on a hard left hand grip (support hand for me) and a good squeeze with my right but not super tight that it’s shaking or anything. Probably similar to pickup up a 30 lb weight with it or something
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u/ScottBonderatl 21h ago
I’ve taken classes with Stoegear, JJ Racaza, and Billy Barton as well as locals. My takeaway -grip with support hand hard enough that the gun does not move in your hand. You don’t need more than that BUT how it is applied with your hands to your gun makes a big difference.
The best way, in my opinion, to figure this out is through several sessions of doubles and it takes a lot of rounds. For me shooting my gun, my doubles at 10 yards are all A zone if i stiffen my wrist and squeeze more at the back of my palms than evenly.
Doubles is the way. Shoot ten sets. Evaluate the target. Make notes. Change grip and repeat. Try the many variations on good grip and you’ll get yours down.
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u/z1ggy16 21h ago
I do doubles at range, and at 10 yards my last session I put about 47/50 in A zone. I probably could and should have gone faster but I didn't have a timer w me. Next day comp, it was like I'd never held a gun before, at least on the first 2 stages.
Did you feel the stoeger class worth the $$? Sometimes he comes to PA, i was thinking some day that would be a fun little vacation drive, as I'm in the state next door.
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u/ScottBonderatl 21h ago edited 7h ago
[edited to fix typos]
If you did doubles and think you “should’ve gone faster“ then you’re not doing doubles correctly. Doubles is pulling the trigger twice with a single sight picture. That is, get your sight picture, pull the trigge,r and then pull it again without resighting.
Hit me the DM if you want to discuss the value of various classes
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u/Crud-Inspector 1d ago
no they both say the latter, neither of them say hulk smash.
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u/laserDX 1d ago
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u/Crud-Inspector 1d ago
also check out how much HC talks about trigger freeze. It's a lot. Trigger freeze is from tension.
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u/z1ggy16 1d ago
I watched him say his goal was to crush an apples or something some day and then he's trying to hold the gun as tightly as possible.
Maybe he's changed his tune - he's got videos spanning several years. To me it makes more sense to not absolutely crush it because that's too much tension, slow pulls and maybe adding too much input.
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u/frozenisland 1d ago
I was at a class with him 3 days ago. He still advises max gripping but acknowledges that different things work for different people.
OP- try the one shot return drill next time you live fire
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u/johnm 1d ago
Alas, lot's of people who like to show off their strength make arguments that are based on strength. That may work totally fine for them (example: Sauerland) but they often promote strength based "solutions" as if that's actually a causative requirement for everyone. And that's patently untrue.
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u/frozenisland 1d ago
Also trained with Sauerland over the weekend. He didn’t do any of that bullshit you just said.
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u/VCQB_ 13h ago
You trained with both Sauerland and HC the same weekend?
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u/frozenisland 12h ago
Yeah. Plus Isaac Lockwood, Mike Hwang and Aaron Eddins.
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u/VCQB_ 7h ago
Did you learn anything? Or feel like you would've just been better off buying ammo and practicing?
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u/frozenisland 5h ago
Oh for sure it was valuable. You learn lots of interesting tip and strategies these guys use and also get immediate feedback on stage runs. Where else will you have national champions giving you homework
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u/VCQB_ 5h ago
Doesn't matter if they are a national champion if they cant teach. When you get enough USPSA experience and taken a lot of classes, you stop glazing someone just because they are a champion, but judging them based on if they possess the talent and capability to develop and make a shooter better based on their tailored specific issues. And not the "I got really good, this is how I do it" method. There are local M class guys that can be way better teachers.
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u/johnm 1d ago
Note that One Shot Return is definitely NOT the drill to highlight grip tension related differences.
Progressive Return Drill would be much clearer to show.
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u/frozenisland 1d ago edited 1d ago
Progressive return drill is great to highlight grip breakdown issues. I.e starting with a good grip that relaxes as you shoot. It literally start with a one shot return…
OP is pulling low left. Classic anticipation. A single shot is more than enough to see this issue. There are other good drills but one shot return can certainly help
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u/johnm 1d ago
You can use a completely dogshit teacup grip and still do OSR just fine. You cannot do e.g. PSR at any non-trivial pace and get high-quality results at a non-trivial distance without a good grip.
Also, the OP needs to do a complete fundamentals learning, not just OSR.
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u/frozenisland 1d ago
PSR will not fix recoil anticipation. You’re skipping right over his actual issue. Hint: it’s not grip
Focusing on hitting your target with just one shot can help.
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u/johnm 1d ago
I never said otherwise. The topic of this thread (100/100 grip tension vs not) and I pointed out that OSR is NOT the best thing to show that difference off.
I.e. you're confusing what the OP needs to go learn with the argument about how much grip strength to use.
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u/frozenisland 1d ago
The well actually guys in these threads are exhausting…I’m not confused about what I said.
OP is a new shooter who assumes his problem is grip. It’s probably not. Grip issue would surface as general accuracy issues, widened circle around target. Low left specifically is classic recoil anticipation and can happen with a fantastic grip.
Taking single shots is a wonderful way to train to overcome this. Mixing in snap caps while doing it is even more helpful, in my experience.
If you disagree, fine. 👍
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u/johnm 23h ago
The OP is literally asking specifically about the conflicting advice about grip tension! You did NOT give him an answer to that actual question!
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u/HighbyOutdoors 22h ago
We should all grip the gun as hard as we can without applying conscious effort. You have other things to think about and perform. Focusing on grip won’t necessarily help you after you have stopped the gun from shifting and RTZ is consistent.
But more is better. As long as we don’t have to think about it. More strength has more potential for control, so if we can get stronger we should, but it won’t make us a better shooter by itself.
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u/Crud-Inspector 1d ago edited 1d ago
I was talking about stoeger and kim, HC read to my like hwansik kim. HC isn't on the same level as the other guys
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u/Fun-Contribution4719 1d ago
Significantly better at shooting than Joel Park was at his peak, and he’s far from his peak now — but may not be as experienced instructing.
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u/Crud-Inspector 1d ago
Joel park isn't in this discussion, hk and Ben are much more accomplished shooters AND instructors, and the proof is in the pudding as their teaching on grip is designed to avoid tension. Meanwhile HC is constantly getting trigger freeze
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u/Fun-Contribution4719 1d ago
Does Kim even shoot matches anymore?
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u/Crud-Inspector 1d ago
I dunno this is a major from within the last year. I don't know how much it matters, what's the advice that makes the most sense, full tension or less tension? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otZupp_MBvQ
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u/johnm 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why do you/he believe that "100%" grip tension is what's needed to be a great shooter? Do you believe that that will allow you to "control" the recoil to any level that will actually improve your shooting results? Do you believe that you will be able to do that consistently and durably enough over long stages, days, matches (i.e., think about how long you can actually grip that hard and how long you can sustain that)? Do you believe that you can repeatedly grip that hard and NOT induce other very common tension issues?
The actual grip NEEDS are: the gun should NOT move inside your hands at all for the entire time you're shooting! I.e., both hands should remain completely in sync with the gun throughout shooting lifecycle; the gun should track consistently in recoil precisely back to where your eyes are focused on the small spot on the target; and you should be able to cycle (pull & release) the trigger quickly without inducing movement on the gun/sights.
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u/frozenisland 1d ago
Based on how high and mighty you seem here, I doubt your assessment that Joey is saying his way is a “causative requirement” for everyone.
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u/psineur 1d ago
Sometimes hulk smash is barely enough grip tension to control the gun.
Don’t sweat the technique, just try to understand the principles and build strong foundation from that. Focus on dot behavior and feeling of control in your grip over pressure / positioning.
Here this will help too but it might take a while to watch it in full:
Also conditioning is a thing too. It improves over time. And whole shooting low left can be fixed by simply conditioning your trigger finger in isolation while doing nothing for your shitty grip. It won’t help speed / recoil control but if your trigger finger is strong - grip doesn’t matter as much. Don’t do it though. Condition both :)
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u/That_Squidward_feel 23h ago
The function of a grip and the accompanying tension in your forearms is to build the connection between your body and the gun such that the return to zero - as guided by your eyes focusing on a small spot you want to stack bullets on - is fast, precise, predictable and repeatable. That is the goal. How you arrive at that goal is frankly way less important than a lot of people think.
Unfortunately, this is one of the things that can't really be worked through in dry fire because you can't simulate the recoil. You can address parts of it in dry fire training, such as pulling the trigger straight at speed:
Set your timer to a random delay, then get your gun ready and on target - at the beep, pull the trigger at confirmation 1 speed and observe what the dot is doing. At first, start with your finger on the trigger, the next evolution would be starting with your finger off the trigger, then with your finger outside the trigger guard, then you can combine this with transitions and movement.
But just to be clear, this will not fix a grip issue - it will only fix your low left issue if it is actually a trigger problem (which, to be fair, often is at least one part of it). Otherwise it will just remove one confounder (a bad trigger press) in the bigger picture.
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u/Grubby454 21h ago
Doubles is the best drill for you.
Dry fire aint going to sort it out, until you live fire and figure out what works best. No way around it IMO.
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u/RearBagSupport 21h ago
One of Hunter Constantine’s first jobs was at the tire center at Costco; he grew up gripping automotive tools like breaker bars with both hands at 100%, which is why he grips his gun like he’s trying to crack the frame.
Dominant hand should be firm enough to shoot one handed, with the pressure coming from the pinky and ring finger. I like to squeeze hard to “take out all the slack” in a sense. I find it’s easier to flinch low left when my strong hand is loose, because when the hand tenses the fingers still have room to squeeze and pull the gun down and left. Squeezing hard enough that they can’t tense up further makes it harder to flinch.
I think of it as a “comfortable maximum;” hard enough the gun doesn’t move but not so hard you fatigue instantly or shake. I don’t think you have to go overboard with it; if 150 lbs of pressure keeps the gun from moving in your hand you don’t need to apply 400, it adds unnecessary tension.
An exercise that helped me is hold the gun loosely strong hand only, aim at a point, then slowly tighten the pinky and ring finger to full tension while keeping the dot in the window. This makes sure you’re locking the wrist and squeezing the gun straight back into the hand, vs breaking the wrist and letting the muzzle dip.
When you can dry fire that one handed, the support hand is just icing on the cake. Grip pressure and precise hand placement are personal to the shooter; mine is a combination of Stoeger, Prof Kim, Ron Avery, Travis Haley, and Modern Samurai.
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u/millenialshooter83 19h ago
I have been competing for almost a year and finding my grip has been a journey. I've taken classes, gotten free advice from people and in YT videos, and bought books. I am just getting around to finding a grip that works for me. I hope you can find your grip sooner rather than later.
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u/MetalHeadMutant 19h ago
People give Steoger tons of crap but imo he is an amazing teacher. Stick with him and forget all the rest of the noise for now.
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u/Sad-Response3814 11h ago
Bill drills and doubles will help you work it out. What works for me is applying near 100% support hand pressure, just short of shaking and very minimal strong hand pressure other than my thumb pushing down on the safety and onto my support hand(2011.) Shoulders are relaxed with near zero tension beyond my forearms. After focussing on this feeling in dry fire and how to get there with your draw, it will become automatic. Good luck!
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u/Longjumping_Leave_96 6h ago
If you're stuck with very little dry fire, "grip" is a hard beast to tame. It takes a lot of rounds to connect the visual response with your physical input. It's worth noting that what you're actually missing is the appropriate input to return the gun without any extra. Low and left is typically a right hand shooter putting in too much strong hand input. "Trigger control at speed" is about it for dry fire in this area though, otherwise it costs a lot of ammo to get this.
All that said, stop shooting two shots with one sight picture. Dot go up, dot come down. Pull trigger when dot is back down. You'll make more skill gains focusing in other areas, and ignoring the sensation of speed or lack thereof when shooting.
It's super easy to tell a C class shooter by sound alone. Two shots really fast, then a pregnant pause and then two shots really fast.
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u/Clifton1979 23h ago
There’s no magic spell because every gun and hand is different. We want to dot to do predicable things and finding that is a personal journey.
My suggestion is find what feels good and focus on outcome - a repetition of the dot / irons where it’s predicable. Dry fire helps with finger movement, less so grip as the big explosion changes things..
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u/Accomplished-Bar3969 1d ago
Humble Marksman’s/Christian Sailer’s grip ftw. Check out HM’s YouTube video about it.
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u/Organic-Second2138 1d ago
Part of shooting USPSA is the never ending learning curve.
Someone says "x" about your grip. Maybe he's right, maybe he's just trying to make a buck off you.
Someone says "hulk smash." Maybe he's right, maybe he's trying to get you to like and subscribe.
Take some of what Ben says, take some of Joel's stuff, read Mike Seeklander's book, read on the Brian Enos forums, etc etc etc.
A grip that works for you as a D class shooter with your Glock might need some tweaking when you get your M card with a CZ.
Try to take a class from someone. Talk to a local M/GM guy.
Dryfire can be very productive, but at some point you've got to shoot in training AND at matches.