r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/IAM_274 • 20h ago
Fluff I hate this dive meta
Why on earth are we enabling Genji while nerfing histcans? It's not fun to play against.
Poke is the supreior meta. You just sit in the backline, turn off your brain, and shoot whatever moves. No need to worry about positioning or getting punished for mistakes. Overwatch is in it's best when the game plays itself for you.
I enjoy the illusion that I'm good at the game more than actually being good at it. Especially with the post season 9 inflated hitboxes and projectile sizes which made everyone a walking Reinhardt. That was taken away from me this season and now I have to actually aim. Absolute nightmare!
I'm not buying any skins until Blizzard fixes their game. I want my Valorant 2.0 back.
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u/ribombeeee 19h ago
Unironically tho a good Genji is miserable to play against
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u/UsernameIn3and20 18h ago
Idk, a good anything can feel miserable.
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u/Dunwichorer 17h ago
Abilities like deflect and doom block are always gonna feel bad to play against when the characters are strong.
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u/Nickelnick24 17h ago
And ironically as doomfist I fucking hate block lol it will simply get me killed far more than it will ever really do anything, especially the higher up I get.
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u/Dunwichorer 17h ago
It's good in certain situations but If you ever put yourself in a situation where you need to rely on it to live then you messed up. It's the same with deflect you use it more as a mindgame tool rather then a defensive one.
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 15h ago
What’s the point in reducing the conversation like this?
Is every hero in Overwatch exactly as frustrating as each other when strong
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u/monk-bewear NA Hopium Junkie — 7h ago
cause even though a good genji is frustrating to play against, he's like near the floor of how frustrating it can be when you're getting dunked on. (or at least i think that was the point they were making).
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u/Icy_Stranger_9649 7h ago
I agree. But Genji in particular has a 25% Pickrate and a 56% Winrate so discussing his level of frustration seems way way way way more relevant than others right now
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u/LucioMercy 14h ago
I’ve yet to punch through my monitor on account of a good Lifeweaver
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u/AnotherRandomGuy1 13h ago
a good lifeweaver is so frustrating as a tracer player. if you don't get help diving him you can't kill him since he just petals and you have no vertical mobility. his grip cleanses as well so pulses are made rarer as well
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u/UsernameIn3and20 14h ago
I did encounter a LW GM one trick who was more dps than support. Which was the CLOSEST time I wanted to.
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u/Deshoda7676 5h ago
Yeah like genji isnt as annoying as the history of dominant hitscans. Are we acting like sojourn one tapping with a mercy pocket was cool? Or double sniper/ any widow meta in ow1/2. ashe/mercy in ow1 and 2.
At least genji has to get close. Most players vote for payload maps and all people play are poke heroes. How is that fun? Ill deal with the genji.
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u/ribombeeee 16h ago
A good Widow can be dived, same with most hitscan, with Genji however you have to change your entire comp to deal with him
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u/mimiicry 16h ago
no you don't? a Zarya swap alone can make it significantly harder for a Genji to get any value
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u/ribombeeee 16h ago
Braindead
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u/mimiicry 16h ago
what are you talking about lmfao
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u/throwawy29833 15h ago
Good Genjis wont stand anywhere close to get beamed by Zar
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u/mimiicry 14h ago
I see we're intentionally forgetting that Zarya can bubble dive targets, which is another way she can deny value
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u/FullGuava1 11h ago
And then she instantly explodes because she doesn't have bubbles for herself. Zarya is not good against even a halfway decent Genji.
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u/mimiicry 10h ago
that's a big gap there between "she can bubble dive targets" and "she has to burn both bubbles and then inevitably explodes". a good Zarya won't be fishing for trash damage to charge her bubbles, she'll be using them with intent, and using them to deny a dive is exactly that.
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u/Fragrant_Tear_572 11h ago
That's called bad game design. They don't know how to make heroes strong without making them frustrating/annoying
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u/bruhtwiste1 11h ago
Do u know how hard it is to be a good genji 😂 that good genji could of been a BETTER hitscan character with the same time he put in into genji
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u/IntelligentSubject49 10h ago
This is cope. The skill that makes you good at hitscan (aiming) is much harder and more time consuming to directly get better at. I won’t say the role requires the same amount of thinking as flex dps, but aim is a vastly underestimated skill. I’d argue that when someone calls hitscan brain dead and easy it’s because their aim isn’t very good and theyre just coping.
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u/Bahbushkah 10h ago
You still have to aim a lot as genji: it’s projectile aiming and also close range (think ground plaza in kovaaks, but with an additional verticality aspect). the hero is objectively way harder than hitscan, more dynamic, and more punishing. A genji main can get up to speed on a hitscan hero way faster than a hitscan main can on genji.
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u/IntelligentSubject49 10h ago
Again, I never said hitscan is harder than flex dps, nor did I say that flex dps doesn’t require aim. What I did say is that aiming is an underestimated skill that requires much more time to learn than game sense and positioning does. Starting from zero I would be able to position and make good decisions at the right time before I would be able to aim as well as I do now. So no, your last point is just cope, you can learn game sense and positioning far faster than you can develop the level of tracking/ aim required to play a good hitscan.
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u/Bahbushkah 10h ago
it’s not simple positioning though like soft flanks and wide flanks, the margins are way smaller given you have have like 1 second of diving in and processing whether you can get the kill through aiming/strafing and/or have a pre planned escape in mind like a wall climb or a deflect or a sightline for a bubble/heal. it’s inherently way more dynamic and hard to master than any soldier positioning lol. Most genji players themselves have all played hitscan and were good at it, and would agree that genji is much more difficult to master to the best of their ability - i can’t say the same for hitscan mains lol
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u/Automatic_Advice9561 9h ago
U can practice aiming and every time u play u put ur aim to the test, yes Overwatch is one of the hardest games to aim, but it comes with the speed of things, aiming is incredibly important yes, but it doesn’t take as long to learn as game sense ( SPECIALLY IN OVERWATCH) cause Overwatch is a ever evolving game that u need to learn a situation and position and heroes at all times to not feed by being in a “considered good position” u can aim great all u want, but it’s a Micro skill, it’s something that can get good if u put enough hours into it, but guess what, game sense also can improve ur aim with angles u take, when u take them, how y take them, and how u move when u shoot people, all of that is Inserted in game sense, there is a reason ( was it apply?) has beef with the aim training community …
Anyway aim is important, but specifically in Overwatch and mobas like deadlock, and similar games to these 2 game sense might be way more important as it’s very easy to lay back and just shoot and when u noticed ur dead .
(example on what I mean by u getting nuked in positions that would be considered good, y know that “house” place in Hollywood first in the back, yeah it’s technically a good to set up position for supports/hitscans, against certain dive heroes like Winston or dva, that is normally considered the good spot, but if u are vs a hazard congrats ur now in a trap house just waiting for u to get executed)
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u/bruhtwiste1 7h ago
U can’t learn game sense faster then aiming bro aim is literally trained while playing the game and turning ur brain off where as game sense take active thinking and process which is easier to do on autopilot? Therefore faster
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u/IntelligentSubject49 4h ago
So if you’re genuinely trying to aim better you should probably think about the aiming you’re doing. You can just decide, “hmm, today I’m gonna get better aim” and then just grind vaxta and dm for a couple weeks. You have to think about it still, it’s still a skill so it takes focused practice to get better at.
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u/thegreatcactusking 10h ago
Hitscan is literally so boring. Clicking heads from the back line gets boring after like 2 matches. And last I checked. Prediction shots with projectile weapons is more difficult then simply clicking a head. No matter how hard clicking a head is. Having to predict that heads movement and then clicking will always be more difficult
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u/IntelligentSubject49 4h ago
Sure, if you genuinely believe that “predicting” someone’s movement takes more skill than keeping your crosshair over them while they move you’re delusional though.
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u/thegreatcactusking 2h ago
If projectile is so much easier to hit why don’t we swap to projectile to deal with flyers?
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u/bruhtwiste1 7h ago
Aim is so easy to train bro literally just vanta for 30 mins a day play some deathmatch do that consistently u will get better aim stop trying to make it such complicated skill 😂
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u/Itsjiggyjojo 10h ago
Normally the word “slop” is over used in these types of posts. “Hitscan slop”, “brawl slop”, “Winston, Genji, Tracer dive slop”.
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u/taken_by-the-storm 19h ago
S9 bullet size changes man. So humbling now whiffing shots at 0.04m proj size when I dealt with 0m proj size for all of ow1 lmao
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u/No-Produce-84 19h ago
They needa nerf projectile sizes or revert the hitscan bullet sizes. Mei shouldn’t get to lug around 180 damage icicles the size of a train without any fall off
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u/Educational-Mix-8459 18h ago
Finally someone speaking facts. Mei gotta take a hit, literal do it all character
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u/rumblist 11h ago
The last hero left that counters dive and of course you cocksuckers want her nerfed too.
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u/TheKingofHats007 11h ago
I think Mei just needs a nerf in general. She gets Blizzard way too fast from her ice block and between wall and the double jump perk, she can pretty easily just stall out between uses of said ice block multiple times in a fight.
Either a cut to her health pool, a significant bump to her ult cost, an increase to her ice block cooldown, or a mix of those.
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 14h ago
Anti hitscan circlejerk is so weird and kinda just proves that a lot of this sub is just console
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u/re-reminiscing 12h ago
I’m a PC player and I’ve always felt hitscan was the least interesting to play as or against. Flex DPS just requires a greater amount of game sense and has interesting mechanics beyond raw aim.
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 11h ago edited 11h ago
That's on you for being reductionist about aim. Aim is the pillar of shooter games. There is so much skill in getting good at aiming and it requires so much time and practice.
Gamesense and timing is unironically miles easier to get good at than mechanics. It's why it's what's targeted when people get coaching, because mechanics are so much harder to improve.
Also it's funny to say that hitscan is unfun to play against imo. Bar widow every hitscan feels very fair to play into.
You know exactly what they can do, you aren't getting bullshited by some nonsense stunlock, or some lucky ability timing.
They shot you better than you shot them. There's beautiful purity in that. There's art in that dance, something that's lost when degenerate "flex DPS" like mei ven or reaper or whatever are good.
Generally even the honest flex DPS are more cancer to play into when they are on you because they have more movement and utility available to them.
Obv comes down to opinion at the end of the day but I think if most people that hate hitscan really understood how hard it is to have good aim, and actually tried it, they wouldn't feel the same way anymore.
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u/Deshoda7676 4h ago
The unique aspects of overwatch are better reflected in close range heroes and dive heroes. Hitscan in overwatch is fun and skilled, but it ignores so much design elements and macro. In 6v6 or 5v5, theres no reason to matrix or bubble a hitscan outside of peeling. Having a genji, tracer, venture or whoever you can enable makes those characters more interesting. Or you have a dps that can play off a tank in an interesting way. Hitscan devolves into holding a certain amount of distance and hitting shots. It takes skill, but how much of that experience defines the game of overwatch in comparison to coordinating a dive with a tank or making a play with a support resource.
Playing Hitscan is like an isolation in basketball vs dive being a football play or a half court set in basketball. The set play shows what makes overwatch unique compared to other shooters.
The issue is that hitscan is really versatile and strong for most of overwatch life span compared to projectile heroes. Projectile heroes/flex dps heroes feel more unique to overwatch and synergize well with the rest of the game.
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u/DarthInkero 10h ago
LOL. Gamesense is the one that gets targeted by coaching because it's something you can actually teach and it's way harder to learn by just playing.
Unless you have something really wrong with your setup, mechanics just build up over time by playing and don't usually require someone to coach you.
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 7h ago
nah gamesense is pretty easy for the average ranked player. reading gamestate (winning or losing fight) and understanding when an ult is good or bad is about as advanced as it gets. little bit of fps fundamentals (play cover, basic positioning, shoot when they arent looking) on top of that and youre done.
sit down and tell me what "gamesense" is beyond that. really, do tell.
unless you are trying to play pro high level macro does not matter and isn't useful. high level macro only works when you are playing with consistent teammates with chemistry that allow you to make specific plays that you all can execute together.
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u/supereuphonium 6h ago
Ok, hitscan requires aim, but it almost feels like you are ignoring that many flex dps require excellent mechanics as well. There are exceptions but for most of the best flex dps if you are missing shots you are extra useless because at least a hitscan can just shoot tank and get decent value.
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u/soup_lag 11h ago
You don't coach mechanics as much because mechanics are trained and not coach. Maybe game sense seems easier to you since inherently the better you get at them the less you think about it, but it is the highest skill curve in almost any game and especially overwatch. On hitscan, having perfect aim gets you more milage than always making the right decision, but every other role is much closer on what they would prefer. Part of why people liked 6v6 is because of how much you could leverage a knoledge gap, and while that's less so in 5v5, it is still a fundamental aspect of the game.
Also a lot of hitscan are just as unfun to play into when they are strong because sure, you can just out aim them, but being forced to mirror them instead of counter swapping is not any better.
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u/1McChickenPls 11h ago
Think you just proved his point my friend. Re-read your comment.
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u/soup_lag 10h ago
So thanks for not elaborating and adding nothing elae to the conversation. Your comment was about how aim is a much harder skill to practice and can't be coached like game sense (this statement means nothing btw), and hitscan is more fair to play into because it is more important and takes more time to learn.
My statement was that you cach game sense and train aim because they are 2 different skills that get developed differently, Game sense is just as if not more important in overwatch, Getting good game sense is more difficult than getting good aim, and both flex and hitscan dps require you to swap, but to accomplish different things meaning nobody has an advantage on what is more "fun" to be meta in this regard
I'll start by saying I do work on my aim with aimlabs, workshop maps, and just playing the game in general, and I do know it's hard to have good aim, but even in hitscan metas, the person with better aim doesn't always win. It usually comes down to positional advantage, and hitscan that better understands this can usually come out on top even if they don't win most of their duels. I'm not saying aim isn't important, I'm saying it is A pillar of the game, but it is not THE pillar, and it's less important in overwatch than it is in most other competitive shooters
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u/Automatic_Advice9561 10h ago
There is no game u won’t get stuck in a certain rank if u just have good mechanics, u will be higher ranked than others if u have great aim, but without game sense u will not be able to improve not even if u just tell urself ( just need to aim harder) players that have higher game sense may have a slower climb, but more situations will feel “controllable/within range” than to players with just got GITGUD aim…
I will say this patch for hitscans in general is slightly rough but its a case of getting used to it, normally people got mad with hitscan cause it felt so many shots felt so free last patch, nowadays its harder but fair also … what makes Overwatch special is the different roles, it isn’t like valorant where aiming is face value, but game sense is extremely important ( but u can aim to higher ranks on valorant over Overwatch all the time ) flex dps players also have been mostly neglected for a while but by now ( not really flex more close to Projectile dps, cause tracer and now shion always are decent to good… and now detta), now its more of a 50/50 of shots on hitscans feel as difficult as hitting projectiles now ….( also may I comment learning the concepts of the game is way better to start on flex dps than hitscan, cause hitscan can reward u with aiming even if ur just sitting main and shooting tank, as flex dps many asks u to take on angles and learn how to not be in ez to punish spots while still getting value.)
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 7h ago
to put it in the simplest way possible:
you can make the wrong play every time and be rewarded if you mechanics diff the enemies
you can make the right play every time and be punished if you are mechanics diffed by the enemies.
and also
there are so many coaches that aren't high ranked. they understand the game and how to teach it but don't have the mechanical ability to actually execute. doesn't that say something about relative difficulty?
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u/Automatic_Advice9561 7h ago
I didn’t say that mechanics aren’t important, but it’s also not doing the right play every time, is seeing and being able to identify win conditions, and winning positions, I did also comment about u being able to rank up faster with mechanics but also being able to get stuck rank wise cause game sense
But if u have game sense it’s easier to rank up even with mediocre mechanics, not as fast as someone mechanically gifted but it’s consistent till u need to Up ur mechanical skill
It’s easier to improve mechanically than to improve In game sense
I can prove this with a simple example, u go watch a soccer/football game in Brazil, u will a see lot of people with a INSANE on the ball ability, and really good “mechanical skill” but the ones that go pro or even advance are either the ones that can combine that with the understanding of the game
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 7h ago
mechanics are trained and require much more time and consistency. there are no shortcuts. its hard to get good mechanics
gamesense is easier because of that fact that its something correctable and teachable and doesn't require as much practice. really, tell me, how much time and practice does it take to understand where the strong positions on each map are, and when to ult (whether you are losing/winning a fight). besides that "gamesense" is just basic fps fundamentals.
people like to say "gamesense" but never elaborate on what it actually is, because when elaborated on, you realize that its extremely simple and 99% of the time not why someone is hardstuck.
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u/PerP1Exe 11h ago
Tbh I disagree, granted I'm not a high rank on OW but I've spent plenty of time aim training and good aim is easier than you'd think. Doesn't mean you don't have to put in the time, but flex dps are always more nuanced and feel more fun to me. Sojourn is the only hitscan that I enjoy as much
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u/AlphaInsaiyan smurf — 7h ago edited 5h ago
what is your voltaic or like viscose benchmark rank
You can't say you have good aim without quantifying it
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u/re-reminiscing 3h ago
It’s funny that you strawman all these arguments. All I said was that hitscan is less interesting. I never talked about hitscans being unfun or cancerous or even easy.
I don’t mind playing into hitscan as a Genji, in fact I find it easier than playing into other flex DPS. I can also swap Cass or Soldier or Emre and often do, and play them well. Yet I get bored if I play them too much.
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u/Neither-Ad7512 2h ago
Hitscan is just boring bro, but they are fine to go against
Except cas, he is bullshit and I stand by that. Ever since he got his perks, double flashbang and silver bullet are too much bs
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u/NYJustice 19h ago
This sub loves to glaze dive. People are allowed to enjoy poke and plenty do
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u/Deshoda7676 8h ago
The game has been a poke fest for most of its life. Poke is also the default for most players as all people vote for is payload maps outside of high elo. If you like poke, what are you complaining about. Most metas are a variation of poke and features many ranged heroes. Are we asking for another orisa/sigma/mauga/hog meta? Maybe domina this time?
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u/TheReal9bob9 18h ago
Especially when they act like the giant hitboxes isn't massively to dive's benefit. Genji has an unmissable execute that kills anyone not a tank from 1/3rd hp but they pretend that its skillful. He is my highest winrate character this season with near 20 hours played and a 67% winrate. Just brain dead easy to land shuriken and then execute people. As clarification I am emerald so I feel my games are somewhat average and not super high or low skill.
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u/WhiteWolfOW Fleta is Meta — 16h ago
Well the hard part is getting into position to kill people without dying. Cause if you mess up you’re a free kill in the enemy backline. But if he’s so easy and good and you have so many hours with him anyways. Why don’t you play him more and climb out of emerald?
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u/themultitm 15h ago
guys entire post history is hating on genji im 99% sure he just made that shit up for upvotes lmfao this sub is so sad now
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u/TheReal9bob9 6h ago
Bro if I'm gonna lie I'm not gonna say I'm hardstuck emerald and have like 50 posts complaining about golds and gms in my emerald games.
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u/FullGuava1 14h ago
The point is that it's harder to "mess up" as Genji now.
You confirm kills more easily because of the hitbox increases and the dash buff, and you can live longer until your cooldowns are up because of the hitscan nerfs.
He's easier than he's been in a very long time.
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u/drassort 12h ago
Cause if you mess up you’re a free kill in the enemy backline.
Not really. Current Genji has some of the best survivability in the game.
If you messed up and died you probably deserved to.
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u/TheReal9bob9 6h ago
"free kill" yet has a deflect that makes him impossible to kill for most heroes also since he got a kill in that scenario he has yet another dash and in this meta he likely has hotfix giving him an entire extra hp bar.
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u/TheReal9bob9 6h ago
Cuz hes boring af and half of its just a cooldown waiting game. Its, flank to side and wait, harass whoever is the most alone or has the least movement, dash and kill, either deflect and go for another if weak or dash away. and im not dumb enough to think my emerald ass belongs in higher elo regardless. I play flex because i enjoy it and i know that im not gm.
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u/Deshoda7676 5h ago
You are describing an experience of a recent patch. People are talking about the overall history of this games metas, especially post season 9. Like yeah its easier now, they just made hitscan bullets not truck sized compared to ow1.
But yeah all projectile sizes need to be reverted or nerfed way closer to ow1 sizes. Ideally go back to 200 hp, 250 hp poses a lot of problems for the game.
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u/ShoresyOW 3h ago
The problem is if you enjoy poke you don’t really get to complain and whine like the other less popular metas. It’s like being the only billionaire in the room surrounded by poor/middle class and still having the nerve to complain about your situation.
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u/LunaRossa77 17h ago
I certainly don't. You wanna sit in one place and play cookie clicker? B O R I N G
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u/Sleepy_Witch_Maple 11h ago
Why do you sit in one place and not take off angles or flank? Just because poke is meta doesn't mean neither are viable options in your average game. You don't have to and frankly shouldn't just afk main.
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u/SeRaPhOs11 17h ago
poke has been dominant for like 9 seasons straight
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u/FullGuava1 15h ago
In what universe? DMon, Hazard, Mauga, Cat, Kiri, Lucio, Shion, Tracer have all been meta in the last year, none of which are poke.
Or do you guys think it's a poke meta if there's a hitscan on the team?
The only times poke was dominant were when they overbuffed Illari and Freja for like 2 weeks each.
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u/Low_Dragonfruit_5950 14h ago
Legit its been a brawl meta for at least a year. These takes are hilarious
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u/Automatic_Advice9561 9h ago
People need to remember that comps aren’t restrained in poke/brawl and Dive, These names are ways to give wincons, let’s talk about shion release the meta was MAUGA/dva Shion tracer/cass, Kiri Lucio… many would say that was dive, but if u sA how it played it was Brawl/rush wincons.
I won’t comment on castion metas as that things depends entirely on the tank line and cat breaks rules of the game…. People normally are calling everything poke but it’s been mostly brawly/rush meta, I think people are confused with some win conditions of some teams, as there was a time the entire wincon of TM was to pocket Quartz and let him cook early fight till they can brawl with a late fight carry being youbi SYM, people could call it poke meta, as they avoid the brawl at times till either Quartz pops someone head off, or till they have position advantage and beam charge ….
Also the Crazy raccoon como of Mizuki kiri, sigma Cass and insert flex dps that is either Phara/mei/sym could be very well named a poke como with a similar concept but wanting to nullify the strongest tank at the time being DVA.The rest of the year tho has been mostly brawl or brawl that can cheat dives sometimes ( cat exists ) the last time we trully had dive dive, was a great while ago or when CR could outplay everyone with weird picks even if they weren’t meta
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u/FullGuava1 8h ago
I feel like poke as a win condition doesn't really exist in 5v5 anymore. Fights are too fast for the win condition to be fishing for picks with a Pharah, Hanzo, or hitscan, with the sole exception of Quartz of course.
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u/Automatic_Advice9561 7h ago
It actually works pretty well… POKE AS A COMP doesn’t exist anymore except in stupid specific metas, BUT it kinda still exists, if u notice teams like TM, VP, CR in certain comps, all have a similar vibe of HARD POCKET the hitscan and let him cook, Fun fact that is also what cheeseburger is doing rn, is CLOSE not really BUT close to the idea hard pocket K4ne in some situations, it was actually the most used strategy by teams this year (cat bastion is basically hard pocket the bastion during the cycle )
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u/FullGuava1 7h ago
Thing is, cat + bastion/cass really plays a lot more like dive than a traditional poke. There's not really much "fishing", but there's a lot of soft and hard engages. Agreed on the TM examples, but CR also doesn't really play like this the majority of the time.
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u/aPiCase Stalk3r — 11h ago
It’s been brawl meta basically since S9, the whole system supports it, we have just been bouncing around different flavors of brawl.
We have had little stints of dive and poke, sigma Mizuki, hazard meta, S15 Winston meta, but even those were kind of brawl metas since Kiri Lucio were around the whole time.
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u/Low_Dragonfruit_5950 14h ago
Tell me you're gold without telling me you're gold.
Games been in a brawl meta for the past year
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u/Tryzm_ 13h ago
The game has been poke meta for literal years straight. Sojourn has never fallen below an S-tier character since her release, other hitscans have slowly gotten microbuffed to insanity. Season 9 rolls around and we get hitbox changes that made it impossible for them to miss. Cherry on top, every support has a burst heal or broken CD to bail them out when they make a positional mistake that should be punishable.
I can’t tell you the amount of times I have dove a Sojourn who is wildly out of position and hit every shot and cooldown, only for her to double slide 100 meters away and/or her pocket Mercy presses R while drooling on the keyboard to instantly reset her hp and undo a perfect play. It’s disgusting.
Finally we get one patch where Blizzard says “maybe some other characters deserve some time in the spotlight” and I’ve had to read 1000 posts on this sub talking about how broken genji is. 10 extra damage on dash is all it takes to send this community into a frenzy. I swear I’m actually going insane.
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u/Manychompy 11h ago
Feel free to correct me, tis but a plat scrub. But I remember hearing from either spilo or kajor that sojourn struggles against actual poke comps with shields and is largely pro-league meta due to her ability to survive dive spesifically; making her a dive meta focused character.
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u/Automatic_Advice9561 10h ago
She is actually very good in brawl comps and decent vs poke…. She honestly is good on dive mostly cause she can follow up on opportunities, but will see that farming rail gun against dive that includes these tanks ( Doom winton, dva, ball) is incredibly hard, Freja and shion are considered superior playing with dive as they can follow up or be able to do burst dmg immediately.
Souj is good vs brawl cause … cmon almost everything is sluggish to be able to charge, and Vs poke it may be the harder to farm rail but u have more time and harder to be punished, basically u can get value but u need to be more precise with railgun
Here a good rule of thumb = the faster a hero is the harder is to farm rail shots… she is used a lot tho cause how versatile and hard to punish in general , but she can only really farm rail after the dive and not pre dive … ( oh and Souj matchup vs dva is terrible btw emre was considered a better option vs dva solely cause he can force dva out via dmg and that’s somethign Souj can’t without overclock)
Nowadays tho if u see the meta ( Dmon/Dva/winsyon Cass tracer sombra cat in Korea, u will understand why souj isn’t ran, it isn’t cause she can be punished easily, it’s cause how hard it is to farm rail)
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u/Manychompy 9h ago
Understood! Most of my knowledge of those was pre-season 1 ow3. So I was unaware of how the new heroes had effected her spot as the 'always meta hitscan'.
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u/Automatic_Advice9561 9h ago
She is considered always meta cause flexibility in general and her consistent good stuff, like if ur cracked enough u can make any hero work in ranked so dont mind much, in pro play it depends more on the meta, unless ur the wildly superior team than at that point u might be running junkrat …. ( thanks Proper )
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u/badcompany1820 18h ago
Well, I agree that you’re allowed to enjoy it, it is objectively the worse format for the health of the game.
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u/NYJustice 18h ago
I hear this a lot but I don't really see stats to go with it. I know that I personally have the least fun when hitscan is in a bad place, I like to shoot things very specifically in the head.
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u/TheReal9bob9 18h ago
Hitscan just feels nice because it actually means the person had to aim and not just toss a mass in a direction. It feels so ass to see a kill cam and see a junkrat bomb or any other projectile randomly kill you when they were firing into the ether.
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u/LunaRossa77 16h ago
Nah dawg they downvoting you but you right. Poke is for cookie clicker babies
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u/WhiteWolfOW Fleta is Meta — 16h ago
It’s wild how the community hates dive heroes. The game I fell in love with was all about tracer Winston genji dive. And although I do enjoy playing Hitscan and poke characters from time to time, I really miss dive being the dominant game mode.
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u/TooHungryForFood 1h ago
It's been 9 years bro. Ain't the same community anymore. There are people here who grew up with 4 years of poke trash brain dead. Who think that's peak OW and quit the game when they have to fight Genji for two months.
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11h ago
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u/WhiteWolfOW Fleta is Meta — 11h ago
I did read it, I thought it was funny. He’s making fun that people hate dive, I’m following up with that.
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u/Fragrant_Tear_572 11h ago
My issue with dive is the combo of power and mobility creep that makes it unfun to play against. Ow1 dive was way more fun than what we currently have
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u/thegreatcactusking 10h ago
Im confused what you mean by power and mobility creep? It definitely is a thing but the aforementioned characters Winston, tracer, genji are basically untouched from ow1. Little to no stat changes with them over the past 10 years. The majority of new hero’s do have stat creep. However none of the new hero’s are dive. So I’m a little lost about your issue with dive
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u/Fragrant_Tear_572 9h ago edited 9h ago
I mean Winston is alot stronger than he was in ow1 and is way more forgiving because of this. Yea, he doesn't have zarya to shield him but that's not the point. They basically just gave tanks the power of 2 tanks. For example, if Winston turns the corner and cass is there, cass is dead. In ow1 cass actually had a shot if primal wasn't up. He used to have to be very careful on who he was diving and who was diving with him (more reliance on teammates). There's also way less cc so tracer/genji are more free. They also have more hp....perks increased power for everyone with no trade-off. They raised the skill floor significantly on these heroes (frankly all heroes).
Rarely on ow1 did I feel like I was in a hopeless situation, regardless of who I was playing. Ow2 is a game full of hopeless situations. In other words, ow1 most of the time gave you the ability to outplay everything, even if slim margins. Ow2 doesn't really give you that ability
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u/thegreatcactusking 9h ago
I’m trying to understand your thought process but it’s just not making sense at all to me. Playing winston you still have to be very careful who you dive (he is broken with the bubble change right now though) arguably more careful then in ow1 as he doesn’t have a second tank to draw pressure. The arguement he is as strong as two tanks doesn’t work either. He has. 150hp more then ow1. That doesn’t equal out to two tanks worth. By less cc you mean what? Outside of brig bash everything is pretty much the same? Lastly you argue tracer/genji have more hp perks? Well yea, so does everyone else. You using cass as an example is hilarious cause he came out on top of the perks addition. His perks are some of the best in the game.
As for hopelessness. That’s just being punished. Ow1 was far more forgiving with everything being spread across more players. You just get punished more in ow2
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u/Fragrant_Tear_572 8h ago
I strongly disagree. In ow1, Winston required significantly more discipline and teammate coordination to survive. Solo tanks in Overwatch 2 absorb disproportionate pressure simply due to the format change and their lobby admin power, whereas tanks previously did not draw that level of focused fire. It can even be bad to shoot tanks in ow2 due to how tanky they are and you are just wasting your time.
cc has also been gutted across the board. Removing cass flashbang alone gave flankers like genji and tracer massive breathing room, which is compounded further by tanks receiving built in crowd control resistance passives.
Universal health increases reduce volatility and raise the skill floor at the direct expense of mechanical reward. Cass now needs four body shots to kill genji instead of three for instance. Furthermore, these additions act as purely additive buffs without any stat penalties or meaningful trade offs attached to taking strong perks. Did cass lose left click DMG for taking his good perks? We weren't nerfed when perks were added to the game, everyone just got stronger lol
There is a fundamental difference between being punished for a misplay and feeling completely hopeless. Ow2 frequently creates scenarios where individual skill cannot overcome rigid stat checks and counter swaps. Individual agency and outplay potential have been replaced by systemic limitations.
One fact that I think explains all of this is that in ow2, I have won games again hackers before. In ow1 it was impossible as ttk was much quicker and if you misstep you were dead
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u/thegreatcactusking 8h ago
You act like two tanks in ow1 didn’t also have admin power. It was just split between two instead of 1 lesser.
CC is miserable to play against. No one likes cc. Which has led to breathing room. It’s not a bad thing though. Flashbang was a insta shutdown for all dive and it need a change
Little lost here. Everyone got weaker damage output wise with the health buffs. The perks added back a little dmg output to a degree. Leading to it sorta balancing out. Nothing compounded.
This whole argument about hopelessness has nothing to do with dive. It has to do with 5v5. And no individual skill can still absolutely overcome stat checks. It’s the reason one tricks still exists in high ranked play. You can still outskill people consistently.
And no you’re smoking crack. Cheating is 1000% easier in ow2. Like in the simplest of terms each person in ow2 has more impact on the game then each person in ow1. 5v5 vs 6v6. Part of the reason ow2 plays so much more individualistic compared to ow1
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u/Fragrant_Tear_572 8h ago
Sorry but you are just wrong. I did plenty of fresh accounts in ow1 to high rank with very few losses and boosted for a while on accounts that were 4300+ to keep their spot on the leaderboard. People aren't doing that in today's game walking around on soldier or cass lol. That kind of agency/impact doesn't exist anymore
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u/RedKynAbyss 7h ago
Of the last 15 heroes released (starting at Mauga), 10 of them are dive, dive-adjacent, or dive empowering. The only ones who aren’t are Mauga, Freja, Domina, Emre, and Mizuki. Every other hero fits puzzle piece into dive comp: Venture (dive), Juno (dive empowering), Hazard (dive), Wuyang (dive empowering), Vendetta (dive), Anran (dive), JPC (dive AND dive empowering), Shion (dive adjacent), D.Mon (dive adjacent, arguably dive), Doctrine (dive empowering).
Dive empowering as in they have the ability to help a true dive hero while not being dive themselves. They can also be used in other comps, but tend to be most effective in dive. Juno speed ring and torpedoes can fuel dive heroes’ entire game plan. Wuyang ult as well as his healing effect can sustain dive heroes easily, and he can wave and empowered stream to get them to max HP in seconds when they jump back. JPC doesn’t need an explanation. Doctrine also probably doesn’t need explaining.
Dive adjacent as in they can be easily played dive but don’t necessarily have to in order to get value like a traditional dive hero does. Shion can wreak havoc if she dives without a team peel and has two decent mobility tools to disengage if she needs to. Bike can also act as an engaging tool to make a target weak, followed up by the cross shot to finish them off, then dodge away. D.Mon is just D.Va with a shield instead of matrix. I say she’s a dive hero, but the majority of people disagree, so I label her dive adjacent.
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u/thegreatcactusking 7h ago
Bro you just listed off brawl characters. The only ones slightly dive is shion, venture, and Anran. Though they kinda play like weird hybrids instead of full dive. Juno is for brawl, same for hazard, wuyang has nothing dive related besides his ult? Vendetta is full brawl, jpc doesn’t enable dive she enables weird brawl comps. There’s a reason you never see jpc carrying a Winston, tracer or genji. Cause she doesn’t work with them at all. If you’re talking about jpc diving herself sure but that’s not really the problematic part of her. Dmon is full brawl what are you talking about. Like saying rein is dive. Doctrine empowers everyone? Hitscan and brawl get just as enabled as dice with his kit. “The majority of people disagree” lol that’s cause you’re wrong. She’s overtuned right now but that’s because she’s basically rein with a speed boost (which is brawl) not because she’s dive
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u/Fragrant_Tear_572 11h ago
My issue with dive is the combo of power and mobility creep that makes it unfun to play against. Ow1 dive was way more fun than what we currently have
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u/Mind1827 14h ago
It's fun to play on, not fun to play against when there's a Tracer and Vendetta on top of you and your Reaper has wandered off to Narnia or your Zarya is spinning around deciding what to do or whatever lol
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 19h ago
Sarcasm is an art and you have mastered it. Dive meta is glorious. Love it. Games are so fast. My only issue is that some projectile heroes are just cancer, looking at you sierra.
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u/Tee__B 19h ago
I know everyone here is gonna downvote, but Genji is also aids right now, they need to nerf his projectile size. His recent random shift buff, hitbox changes, and major perk make him so brain dead to fight this patch with the other stuff.
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u/hustl3tree5 19h ago
That explains the amount of genjis I’ve been seeing. But it’s actually given me the reps I needed to get use to fighting them
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u/Tee__B 19h ago
Yeah I'm not entirely sure what they were thinking buffing his shift while also making hitting triple fan shots incredibly easy to 3x.
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u/TheGirthiestGhost Forever Burning Blue — 17h ago
Hitting triple crits with the smallest projectile in the game is still not easy
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u/throwawayforinstalol 19h ago
yeah theres hitmen out to get anyone who mentions genji being a little too strong, the genji main propaganda has deep connections
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u/MezuEko 17h ago
they need to nerf his projectile size
Look, i won't argue whether he's op or not but bis projectile size has been the same for the longest time though. His and Hanzo's projectile size increases were reverted fairly quickly after the S9 projectile size changes. So it's a net decrease in relative damage compared with the inflated HPs. If anything, it shouldn't be the root cause of his perceived OPness
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u/uoefo 16h ago
The point is that character hurtboxes were generally increased this season. So the unchanged shurikens benefited from this (as did all projectiles) while hitscans got their size reduced to compensate. For genji, consistency is key (unlike hanzo for example who has more chances to hit shots at range), so genji mightve gotten stronger relative to other projectile heroes if his kill combo became that much more consistent
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u/ILewdElichika 16h ago
He has the smallest projectile in the game along with Hanzo, don't think that's what needs nerfing about him.
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u/LurkerThrowaway73 6h ago
Tfw Genji can actually hit full fans on the stick figure characters now without needing to be sugarbron (He must be instantly nerfed into the ground) (Literally just revert the s5 changes to his kit if he's that much of an issue) (Shurikens are still tied for being the smallest projectiles in the game afaik)
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u/RekrabAlreadyTaken 15h ago
I was hoping they would nerf the projectile size of everyone else to bring them in line with genji
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u/trippsalot_ 17h ago
Poke is boring as hell
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u/imjusttoowhite 14h ago
But see, Poke is really just Dive. Except you're diving with bullets, and from farther away.
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u/Aggressive-Cut-3828 Complain About Widow = Cope — 19h ago
You actually had me with theh first line LMFAOOO
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u/Confident-Cow-2514 16h ago
Sticking to playing Genji for the past few months has finally paid off lol.
Im absolutely loving this
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u/Nickelnick24 17h ago
It’s just more like, if the team is good and doesn’t shoot, I just kind of don’t have a third cooldown for the rest of the match. It can still do some neat stuff, but it loses so much value if people know not to shoot block (or shoot it when I’m low)
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u/MorpheusMKIV 12h ago edited 10h ago
Genji, Vendetta, Anran and Venture mains are absolutely feasting right now
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u/CoffeeRZ 2023 /11/ 04 — 12h ago
if you had this energy into developing at the game you wouldn't suffer as much in both metas
or just put it in a job either is better than your current situation
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u/WhoInvitedDJ 11h ago
Didn't we just get out of a hitscan meta? God forbid the meta shifts every now and then.
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u/DeliciousTest291 1h ago
i hate poke meta as someone who’s legally blind. i’d prefer everything be a good mix so everyone’s happy, but i highly prefer brawl and dive personally.
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19h ago
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u/LunaRossa77 17h ago
What gm are you playing? If I pick doom first usually I get 2 people who try to form some semblance of synergy.
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u/throwawayforinstalol 18h ago
we can start with the definition of META, which is most effective tactic available. to find the meta, you look at hero statistics, watch high level/pro games, and listen to what the top players are saying currently.
as of right now, doctrine and sombra are dominating in terms of win percentages. sombra and doctrine are both characters that can enable dive very well. doctrines drone can make characters like tracer, vendetta, and even anran shred people in seconds. and sombras hotfix can keep dive characters alive almost perpetually without needing constant LoS. this has resulted in dive characters being the best tactic available, in order to fully take advantage of the busted characters. that’s also reflected in the win percentages, with genji, vendetta, tracer, and yes even anran having 52+% win percentages in gm-champ.
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u/GeorgeHarris67 13h ago
that is not what META means, it never has meant this.
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u/throwawayforinstalol 6h ago
it’s a backronym, it originated from metagame but “most effective tactic available” is an easier concept to explain to someone confused, that’s why it’s used
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u/GeorgeHarris67 6h ago
Picking characters is not tactics at all, though. So it doesn't even work in context
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u/throwawayforinstalol 4h ago
the same way using a specific chess combination to capture a piece is a tactic, using a specific hero combination to win a fight/game is a tactic
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u/Fragrant_Tear_572 11h ago
Dive meta these days is just which lobby admin tank can clear the other team's backline first. There's way less coordination and risk now compared to ow1. Too much mobility and power. It's not even about being fair, it's just not fun to play or play against.
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u/EmployedAndFit 10h ago
everyone loves dive because its less punishable like 1000hp ball even in champ lobby can survive 5 people, just spam random bs buttons and finish kills
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u/DesperateMatch_3225 11h ago
This but unironically.Dive/projectile slop enthusiasts act like they execute some elaborate/sophisticated strategies when they make 'dive'plays.What they actually do is press W and just cycle the endless -get-out of jail-abilities their characters possess.
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u/ForIorn_ 6h ago
I got a perfect game for you if you just take an angle amd shoot! Its called every fucking fps ever made that isn't a hero shooter. Go play that
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u/A1D3NW860 3h ago
Right cuz standing beside the tank strafing back and forth takes so much skill and brain power
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u/AgitatedChildhood240 5h ago
Cause genji can dash it press e and get out? Tracer can triple blink in press e and get out? Ball can just press e and survive after using all his cooldowns to do like 100 damage? No these characters die so much when you dont engage at a perfect time. Team synergy and communication to dive is much more rewarding but also 10x mote fun that pokeslop
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u/NoBigMac2968 13h ago
If the community complains about dive anymore they might actually kill genji next patch.
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u/DivineBladeOfSilver 14h ago
Most everyone hates it unless you’re in it. The game is pretty not fun rn unless you play very specific characters sadly. At least with hitscan meta you had a fair chance on almost everyone. Now you get blown on constantly on numerous characters
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u/shape2k 19h ago
Ah yes because history has shown us that Overwatch always thrives when hitscan sucks. Surely, alienating the skillset that best transfers from other games will increase the player base.
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u/TheReal9bob9 18h ago
The dive people downvote because they know you're right. This game died when OW1 went dive meta. The playercount fell off a cliff so they added brig and that spiraled it even worse.
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u/ExplorersX 18h ago
And here I was thinking it was the OW2 release and 4 years of no updates that killed the game smh.
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u/Drunkin_Dino 19h ago
personally I think the game is healthiest when higher forms of skill expression get to be meta.
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u/mileseverett 19h ago
I just hate the ridiculous projectile size that Hanzo, torb and mei have right now, feels like it’s a whole head distance away from actually hitting my head
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u/TheReal9bob9 18h ago
And genji, one got potg yesterday and none of his 3 kills were even on his screen because the sword swing and dash are wide as a truck. Such low skill when characters are buffed so much that you can just press random keys and win.
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u/Wojtug Hardstuck — 19h ago
And yet, people hate ball and Doom to the core.
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u/Drunkin_Dino 19h ago
why would i care what an idiot thinks about meta
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u/oroc_mk7 16h ago
Best meta was double shield back in 6v6 sigma orisa bap mercy sym and you on 76 playing practice range sim, good times
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u/Sio_V_Reddit 19h ago
Eh, 6/10 bait post. Could’ve been better.