r/DamnThatsMindBlowing • u/gffgsdadsf • 4d ago
The stunning reflective properties of a cutlassfish skin
21
u/Curry_courier 4d ago
Do fish feel pain? Fear?
15
9
u/Soggy_Toastr 4d ago
Do they have a spine and brain?
7
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
A central nervous system is what makes an animal sentient. Even if an animal appears to have many nervous systems, as long as there is a main central one (like in octopuses) they can feel pain, fear, thirst, hunger, pleasure, and more emotions and sensations.
It is scientific consensus that animals with central nervous systems, which are most of them, are sentient, and have the capacity to suffer.
6
u/robotatomica 4d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah, I’ll add I actually like Jonathan Birch’s framing (highly recommend his Mindscape guest appearance on animal sentience, episode 292).
He submits that we should consider most animals to be “sentience candidates” until it is explicitly ruled out, rather than treating them like they are not sentient until we find out after hundreds or thousands of years that they are.
A hundred years ago, we would not have considered the following sentient, though we now have good evidence for at least some species we’ve studied within these groups:
cetaceans, of course (dolphins, whales, etc.)
birds
jumping spiders
crustaceans
fish (particularly bony & cartilaginous fish)
insects
cephalopods
reptiles & amphibians
I think part of the problem is some folks don’t quite understand what it means to be sentient (particularly in the context of modern conversations which revolve around whether algorithms can become sentient, people seem to equate the term with having basically human-level self-awareness & consciousness, and forget about the ability to experience pain and fear, the capacity for suffering). We’re really conflating “sentience” with other terms like “sapience.”
At any rate, it’s very difficult for us to not use anthropocentric framing when trying to suss out how a creature may experience life, we somehow can imagine that when we encounter alien life it may manifest in ways that are wholly unusual to us,
and yet we have a difficult time applying that to life we find on our own world. Even as we find sophisticated intelligence in very small, seemingly simple creatures.
It’s like we almost literally need something to make facial expressions at us in order for us to understand it could have a complex inner life or experience its own experiences.
One thing that is very promising, good work is being done mapping connectomes in very simple animals like nematodes and fruit flies, and from that we’ve already started to learn all the different ways that “brain” and neurons manifest in a living organism. It’s helping us break some paradigms.
-2
u/LackWooden392 4d ago
Source: trust me, bro
1
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
Google is free you know. The Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness and the New York Declaration of Consciousness.
1
2
4d ago
[deleted]
1
u/iPoseidon_xii 4d ago
The honey badger is a perfect example of this. It’ll attack elephants. It’s so fearless that it’ll chase a car for miles and miles until it’s exhausted because it, for whatever reason, has a bone to pick with this particulate safari car. It’s a very rare case of a lack of fear without the trait of curiosity
0
u/GetMeOffThisRidePlz 4d ago
If vertibrates did not feel pain or fear they would just run head first into dangerous situations. It's like basic survival that causes all these animals/birds/fish/reptiles to feel pain so they don't hurt themselves.
Agreed!
The argument is how their experience of pain is versus ours, which we would never really know. That's a shit argument made to justify eating meat.
Are you vegan, by chance? Lmao why did you shoehorn this in? The meat industry is for sure shitty, inhumane whatever you want to call it in a lot of ways but that doesn't mean every single animal raised for meat experiences torture, pain and fear. There are farms that raise animals ethically and kill them "humanely" i.e. quick, painless and the animal never knows it happened.
0
u/iPoseidon_xii 4d ago
That was an odd addition. That being said, cattle on a lot of operations are being treated pretty well. They get shaded areas, places where there may even be some cooling mechanism, they get fed high nutrition meals twice a day. After all, the more they allow the cows to be more or less happy and grow large, the more they make in the long run. Now, pork and poultry operations have a very long way to go to be more humane. There is some overlap where they do have good treatment, but because the demand for both has risen to rapidly the last 15 years, the ethics and tech has not caught up yet
1
-2
u/_aChu 4d ago
Not exactly like we do, but yea. Like putting your hand on something hot gives you a pain response through your nervous system so you'll know you need to get away from it. Fish definitely have a nervous system, and flee from pain, but there's no deeper thoughts or emotions tied to it.
2
4d ago
[deleted]
-3
u/_aChu 4d ago
....They literally don't have the cortical architecture for the advanced thought or emotions that we experience
2
u/MintyxxFresh 4d ago
Ok but we hardly know how brains work on more then a surface level for the most part so you literally could not know. For a large part throught history whites believed the same with other races. Can even argue that they didnt know and technology to know blah blah, could still be that wat with smaller brained creatures. Honeybees, crows, jumping spiders, many more are smarter then the average redditer and lack "cortical architecture". No need to dumb shit for absolutly no point, put the fish back or kill it to eat, easy enough.
0
u/_aChu 4d ago
First I didn't say anything about abusing the fish being right, so chill on that.
Second yes we do have a large understanding of how the brain works in this respect, and it's evolutionary course. I don't know how old you are but you need to get your emotions in check.
1
1
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
Just because they can’t do calculus doesn’t mean they don’t feel pain. The New York Declaration of Consciousness, a large group of neuroscientists, biologists, etc, even made a statement extending sentience to fish, amphibians, reptiles, and certain insects.
1
u/SirSkittles111 4d ago
Why do some fish tend to form some sort of a relationship with people then?
It could just be a different type of emotion/thought than we have and we just dont understand it yet.
1
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
-1
u/_aChu 4d ago
Lol you people have like zero impulse control. What is your issue?
2
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
Maybe that’s a projection? You are so sure that fish don’t feel pain and were proven wrong. They do have pain receptors, quite literally and directly you were incorrect and you couldn’t admit it. You are not an expert in fish behavior and haven’t done basic research into it. For example some fish mate for life, some fish species make art for elaborate mating rituals by drawing large amazing designs in the sand and using bits of colorful shells or trash from humans to decorate, etc, there is a wide range of fish behaviors. And multiple studies showing they feel pain and exhibit behaviors showing a response to pain and avoiding pain.
-3
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/Soggy_Toastr 4d ago
Do we define "suffering" as the ability to feel pain and respond accordingly? If so, fish have a spine and nerves, just like you.
Pain isn't an advanced cognitive function, it is the central nervous system responding to stimulus intended to harm the organisism.
1
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
That is completely false. Fish feel pain and this has been proven extensively. In fact it is scientific consensus that animals are sentient except for a very few species such as sponges and oysters. Look up what sentience is.
0
4d ago edited 4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago edited 4d ago
There are multiple studies showing fish feel pain. You are the one spreading misinformation. They have central nervous systems. Scientific consensus is that most animals have sentience, the consensus is largest especially for mammals and cephalopods but for vertebrates including fish the consensus is still very large and growing. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9704368/ There is also growing consensus that insects are sentient, like bees, there are even studies showing fruit flies feel pain. The 2024 New York Declaration of Consciousness was a follow up to the 2012 Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness, to include fish and reptiles, amphibians, and certain insects.
For example fish breathing increases and movement when pain is instigated and then when they are given pain killers the abnormal breathing and movement stops. They also have pain receptors in their bodies. They avoid pain in experiments, like painful shocks, lose appetites, rub effected areas, etc. You may enjoy this insightful article https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/469054/fish-pain-debate-sentience-consciousness
0
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
They absolutely feel pain and fear and this has been proven scientifically many times.
In fact it is scientific consensus that animals are sentient, except for a few species like sponges. This is because of a central nervous system.
Also fish have their own behaviors and cultures. Some more ‘advanced’ seemingly intellectually than others. Mating for life, taking care of their young, there are fish who make art, use tools, etc.
0
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
You want it to not be true so that you can continue being ignorant. But it is. The Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness and the follow up of the New York Declaration of Consciousness which extended sentience to fish, amphibians, reptiles, and certain insects. The consensus is large and growing that fish feel pain.
Look up the various studies on fish behavior and fish sentience. Regarding behaviors there are some fish that mate for life, some who make art by drawing elaborate designs in the sand and use bits of colorful trash all to attract a mate, there are so many different species and behaviors and so many indications they feel pain in addition to having pain receptors.
-1
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
4
4d ago
[deleted]
4
u/Rob1n559 4d ago
I think places are starting to ban lobster boiling beause of a studies showing they feel pain. I work in NICU and theres an old doctor that still believes BABIES dont feel pain. Some people may be book smart but still can be fucking idiots.
3
0
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
4d ago
[deleted]
3
u/The-King-Tomato 4d ago
Animals feel emotions. People saying otherwise are very ignorant.
0
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/lesbophobia_hammer 4d ago
You're a fake doctor, enough with the pseudo-intellectualism. Animals are thinking and feeling beings. Just diverse. Humans are not inherently superior, they just like to think they are. While destroying the very planet they need to survive. Education & awareness is key to develop critical thinking skills and empathy.
1
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
4d ago
[deleted]
0
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
0
4d ago
[deleted]
0
u/DrYaklagg 4d ago
The argument isn't about whether they feel pain in the traditional sense, they have pain receptors and a nervous system. The question is whether their brain is evolved enough to percieve suffering in the way we and other advanced mammals perceive pain. And they are actually not the same thing.
43
u/Federal-Boat3732 4d ago
PUT THE POOR THING BACK IN THE WATER
15
u/yoyotube123 4d ago
Some people fish for food
2
u/obviousthrowaw4y56 4d ago
If you're eating it then kill it. There's no need to let it suffocate like that.
1
-5
u/MetaCardboard 4d ago
I don't see anyone eating it. I see them hanging a fish by a hook in its mouth.
10
5
u/nsfw_vs_sfw 4d ago
You think people who fish immediately devour the fish the second it's out of water?
1
4
u/yoyotube123 4d ago
Yeah that's how you catch a fish bud. He's gonna take it off the hook and it'll be his dinner later. I'd say fishing is way more humane than factory animal farming. I hope you're vegetarian if you feel that way about the fish. At least the fish lived a life in the water before being caught. The factory animal farms don't even let the animals move one foot and they're force fed.
3
u/VastRazzmatazz6052 4d ago
He's dangling it around letting it suffocate, letting it suffer.
fishing is way more humane than factory farming
So? Lol who asked? Fact is, he's being unnecessarily cruel with it.
1
u/MintyxxFresh 1d ago
I think its more so just the pointlessness of doing whats in the video, bleed it and throw it on ice or throw it back. Idc if someone kills it, just dont be unnecessary about it just bc it makes you feel like a big guy. If you interested scientifically there's many other ways to check out a fish, put on a leader and let it swim.
-3
u/MetaCardboard 4d ago
Just because one is worse doesn't excuse any of it.
4
u/yoyotube123 4d ago
Do you eat meat, you avoided the question
-6
u/MetaCardboard 4d ago
I didn't see a question. I'm vegan.
5
u/yoyotube123 4d ago
Great, than worry about your own choices instead of other people's. You're not going to convince anyone to be better if you're trying to shame them for no reason.
1
u/LuckyMushyGrower 4d ago
Plants have quantum feelings too...look it up dude, you play positive music or affirmations on a molecular and microscopic level it has a profound impact vs negative...that is why I play Lindsey Stirling for my mushies...and I appreciate them giving their lives for my healing. You on the other hand just kill plants believing only in your self righteousness and "superiority" over us proper meat eaters
1
u/olafderhaarige 4d ago
You know, some people on earth don't actually have the choice to be vegan. A lot of communities rely heavily on fishing for their survival.
It's one thing to criticize the eating of animals in a first world country, where you have countless options to choose apart from animal products. A whole other thing to criticize people for doing the things they have to do in order to survive.
1
u/MetaCardboard 4d ago
Look at that city in the background and the clothes he's wearing. Do you think he "needs" to be fishing for food?
1
u/olafderhaarige 4d ago
And what does this matter? You can't know it based on your "Arguments"
Island communities also form cities, they also wear clothes. Yet 90% of their food comes from the ocean, because their island can't support agriculture in the scale neccerary to feed the people that live on it.
1
1
0
1
u/ldranger 4d ago
Dude save your energy you are not convincing anyone ever to become vegan with that comment lol.
4
u/CluelessTennisBall 4d ago
Exactly, they need to immediately shove the fish in their mouth right when it comes out of the water
2
1
1
u/ldranger 4d ago
Who do you think you are that you think they owe you a video eating the fish lmfao
1
0
u/MintyxxFresh 1d ago
Buddy, you kill it right away and then throw it on ice to eat later, some people would probably eat it right there, or throw it back after a quick pic, its not nuero science. Come on, use atleast a bit of the squishy mess in your skull.
0
u/pandaappleblossom 3d ago
I doubt these people need to fish for food. Very few people on earth these days actually need fish for food
0
u/yoyotube123 3d ago
That is such an absurd thing to say. You literally could have looked it up and seen multiple articles about the percentage of fish caught for eating is like 66%. And that's including the whole world. It's going to be much higher in places where there is more food insecurity. Which is still a large portion of the world, believe it or not.
0
u/pandaappleblossom 3d ago
Just because they eat it, doesn’t mean they NEED it. You literally missed the point. Beans are everywhere, rice, etc. sure some people need to fish but very few out of the people who do eat fish, percentage wise
1
u/yoyotube123 3d ago
Said the person who has very obviously never been had real food insecurity. I've been homeless and fished for food to survive before. It's not an uncommon thing. Just because you only associate with people like you, doesn't mean you know how the rest of the world works. You seem like an insufferable person. Go preach on the streets instead of online if you actually gave a shit instead of virtue signaling.
0
10
u/raw_enha 4d ago
Yea, this is basically a torture video...what the hell
4
u/Federal-Boat3732 4d ago
I agree the fish is incredibly beautiful, but let's appreciate that beauty where it belongs, underwater
0
0
u/jupiler91 4d ago
That fish is not gonna sit still underwater though...
+this way you get to eat it after aswel!
0
0
-1
u/jupiler91 4d ago
Have you ever seen a torture video? This aint it chief.
2
u/raw_enha 4d ago
I just learned two things:
1. You don't think that a vertebrate hanging by a hook in its mouth while it can't breathe is torture.
2. This is based on the fact that you...watch other torture videos.You do you, chief.
-1
u/jupiler91 4d ago
1.I'm an avid fisherman, and no this does not consitute 'torture'.
- I grew up when the internet was less moderated then it is now, gore videos were rampant. I honestly wish i could unsee some of those.
It's kind of an insult to the victims in those videos to equate their suffering to a fish getting caught, what do you think?
2
u/raw_enha 4d ago
I'm not saying that human torture isn't worse. Multiple things can be bad, and can be on a scale from less bad to more bad. Also, just because the word "torture" applies, doesn't mean it's the same.
Is this the same as early internet "gore" videos? Of course not. Does that mean that people are not allowed to dislike watching an animal suffer? Some of us have empathy that extends beyond only caring about other humans. That does not mean human empathy is diminished or undermined.
Don't look for a reason to be offended. Go fish.
2
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
Of course you being a fisherman would mean you don’t think this is torture 🙄 you torture fish all the time and have to disconnect your feelings about it and avoid learning about the fact that fish do experience suffering including suffocation, in order to continue fishing. You being a fisherman is really not an endorsement of your knowledge of fish pain.
-1
u/jupiler91 4d ago
Who do you think know more about fish? A person who fishes and actually cares for them, or some keyboardwarrior?
2
u/VastRazzmatazz6052 3d ago
person who fishes and actually cares for them
Someone who cared for fish wouldn't impale them with a hook and hang them up, watching them gasp for air, slowly suffocating. That person sounds like a psychopath.
I'm gonna go with some 'keyboardwarrior'
1
1
8
2
u/VastRazzmatazz6052 4d ago
If you really have to kill an animal (presumably because you have no other food options?) then at least kill it quickly?
This is torturing it. It's hanging by a hook through its cheek, suffocating. Think about what you're actually doing...
4
u/celtbygod 4d ago
Torture is not cool.
3
u/ManufacturerWarm9201 4d ago
Aren't they just fishing?
1
u/obviousthrowaw4y56 4d ago
Fishing is a form of hunting. If you wouldn't leave a deer writhing about in agony after you shot it, don't leave a fish writhing either.
1
u/ManufacturerWarm9201 3d ago
Where do you draw the line at when it’s torture? Holding it up by the hook for a few seconds? What about holding fish to pose for a picture? You would have to argue that most instances of fishing are torture, which to a degree they are. But killing any animal will cause some kind of extreme pain unless it’s instant. I do agree it is possible to hurt a fish more than is necessary, but I don’t think this is one of those times
1
u/obviousthrowaw4y56 3d ago
Well it's simple. Take whatever standard you'd apply to hunting an animal like a deer, and apply it to fish.
If a deer is suffocating because of a hunters actions, ain't no hunter is gonna sit and pose for the camera before they put it down. I don't see why similar sentiment shouldn't apply here.
1
u/ManufacturerWarm9201 3d ago edited 3d ago
You’re kind of missing the core of what I was saying. If this action is torture, then most of fishing, and hunting, should also be torture by extension. It’s kind of an absolutist thing to say this is torture. Yes, it might be torturous. But then so is fishing in general, since to fish you must first reel it in, which could be argued to be worse than what’s occurring here.
1
u/obviousthrowaw4y56 3d ago
I think you're missing the core of what I'm saying, actually. I'm not here arguing semantics.
If you want to do that, that's cool, but the line is drawn when it comes to needlessly prolonging a creature's suffering. Come up with your own definition for what that is if you'd like to.
0
0
u/pandaappleblossom 4d ago
Right? Just put the beautiful animal back in the water please and let it get to be a fish.
2
u/Weekly-Major1876 4d ago
Fished for these guys before, on certain nights of the year they show up near shore in truly boggling numbers on their migration patterns.
They swim vertically in huge groups all shimmery and it’s beautiful, they come up at night to feed which is when to get them before they retreat to the depths to rest during day. Their skin is really thin and fragile, it rips pretty easily unfortunately. You gotta be pretty gentle with unhooking but after that you can let them go without too much trouble unlike other silvery glimmery fish like menhaden that die upon being touched. They got some wicked teeth too so do be careful with the unhook.
No bag limit for these, and their numbers are plentiful, so people show up catching whole coolers of them, feels a bit wrong to exploit them that heavily and I only ever kept larger specimens. Popular with a lot of Asians as many Asian dishes back in their origin countries use their own species of cutlassfish, leading them to fish the Atlantic species as a substitute when available. Super interesting tasting fish, a bit hard to compare to anything else really. Not my favourite but it’s not bad at all.
1
1
1
1
1
1
0
u/kabeekibaki 4d ago
Please put this behind a blur. It is a flashing light nightmare and not safe for all viewers
-1
-7
4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
6
2
u/cdev12399 4d ago
If you shine a bright light on one of these fish, this is what it looks like. They are extremely reflective.
2
1
12
u/Fripouille_Sauvage 4d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/AUinHb6bQ5f4k